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Crack Theory Thread!Topic%20Title
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Formerly "Let's Explain Away Contradictions".

So, you know how there are some plot holes/continuity errors/things that plain just don't make sense in this series? There is a little section on this site devoted to them, after all. And certain characters' actions - let's face it, Ace Attorney is not a place for normal people.
But let's get a little deeper into it, shall we? And also try to come up with explanations for them. The crazier, the better! I'll start with a few.

• The reason why everyone knows Edgeworth's "suicide" in JFA was over his win record, and not forged evidence, was because the note was either longer than just five words, or there was a seperate note (possibly at Edgeworth's home as opposed to his office). It's never really brought up beyond the knowlege pf Edgeworth's motive.
• The case against Machi Tobaye in Turnabout Seranade was so awful because Daryan Crescend was screwing with the investigation. (He was the one who made the initial arrest.)
• The reason why Phoenix acts so different between AJ and DD is because in AJ, he was constantly drunk and therefore infinitely shadier (and may have also been yanking Apollo's chain), but when he decided to retake the bar exam, he gave up the grape juice and returned to his former self. Either that or the attorney's badge is literally all that keeps him sane. Possibly a mixture of both.

I've never made a topic before, so I hope I'm not posting in the wrong area or making a duplicate thread here!


Last edited by AireyVerkhovensky on Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I'm accepting that one with Phoenix as headcanon.
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Klonoahedgehog wrote:
I'm accepting that one with Phoenix as headcanon.


Grape juice doesn't make anyone drunk. Also, it was not a localization change, it was Grape Juice in the Japanese version, too.

As for the Edgeworth thing, I dunno, given what a prick Edgey was initially, I think most people just knew he would commit suicide over his win record.

C-A
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AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
So, you know how there are some plot holes/continuity errors/things that plain just don't make sense in this series? There is a little section on this site devoted to them, after all.
But let's get a little deeper into it, shall we? And also try to come up with explanations for them. The crazier, the better! I'll start with a few.

• The reason why everyone knows Edgeworth's "suicide" in JFA was over his win record, and not forged evidence, was because the note was either longer than just five words, or there was a seperate note (possibly at Edgeworth's home as opposed to his office). It's never really brought up beyond the knowlege pf Edgeworth's motive.


The reason is because the cake Case 5 is a lie.

Edgeworth "chose death" because he initially couldn't process the drama of his past, the fact that he was living a lie all these years and having it dragged out into the light for everyone to see. He left the note because he's emotionally stunted and didn't know how to express how it felt being saved by someone he tried to have killed only months prior because it would have dented his perfect win record.

When Case 5 was added, nothing else had changed.
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Still, suicide over win record? Wouldn't that be, like, half a year late?


Last edited by Nearavex on Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nearavex wrote:
Still, suicide over win record? Wouldn't that be, like, half a year late?


Exactly.
Here's another contradiction to kindly try to explain away then: Why did Edgeworth win the "King of Prosecutor" trophy if all he did in GS1 was lose every single case we saw him prosecute? Isn't the KoP supposed to be for people who, like, are the best of the best of the best and didn't lose a case all year long?

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Explaining contradictions? Isn't that what the cough-up thread is for?
CatMuto wrote:
Here's another contradiction to kindly try to explain away then: Why did Edgeworth win the "King of Prosecutor" trophy if all he did in GS1 was lose every single case we saw him prosecute? Isn't the KoP supposed to be for people who, like, are the best of the best of the best and didn't lose a case all year long?

C-A

We saw a grand total of two cases which Edgeworth prosecuted. Considering Phoenix mentioning in Case 2 that the crime rate was high enough to implement a three-day trial system, it's very likely he took several other cases we haven't heard of. And he's not requested to take cases like Phoenix, he has to take cases.

Explain this: Prior to Edgeworth "updating" the autopsy report, we are told that the victim died from "loss of blood due to being struck by a blunt object, sir!" You CANNOT die instantly due to loss of blood.
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Quote:
Explain this: Prior to Edgeworth "updating" the autopsy report, we are told that the victim died from "loss of blood due to being struck by a blunt object, sir!" You CANNOT die instantly due to loss of blood.


That is a problem, yes. The shock might set up, but it would make more sense if CoD was "fractured skull".

As for the KoP, since it was given to people like Karma a lot, you'd think you have to be really, really good and, like, not lose a case for a whole year to get the trophy. Edgey getting it seems kind of... off.

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CatMuto wrote:
Klonoahedgehog wrote:
I'm accepting that one with Phoenix as headcanon.


Grape juice doesn't make anyone drunk. Also, it was not a localization change, it was Grape Juice in the Japanese version, too.

As for the Edgeworth thing, I dunno, given what a prick Edgey was initially, I think most people just knew he would commit suicide over his win record.

C-A

I've read that in Japanese, it was actually wine. Because the Japanese word for wine literally translates back into English as "grape juice". Also, those are clearly wine bottles.

Edgeworth's "suicide" was right after the forged evidence scandal in RftA, which very clearly affected him deeply. The natural assumption in that situation would be to assume that it was over that.
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Quote:
Edgeworth's "suicide" was right after the forged evidence scandal in RftA, which very clearly affected him deeply. The natural assumption in that situation would be to assume that it was over that.


Considering 1-5 outright RETCONS something about Edgeworth, I refuse to take that case into any consideration for anything. It's a dumb case, too long, contradicts itself and retcons Edgeworth's character (making the character change from JFA obsolete)

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Edgeworth's "suicide" was right after the forged evidence scandal in RftA, which very clearly affected him deeply. The natural assumption in that situation would be to assume that it was over that.


Considering 1-5 outright RETCONS something about Edgeworth, I refuse to take that case into any consideration for anything. It's a dumb case, too long, contradicts itself and retcons Edgeworth's character (making the character change from JFA obsolete)

C-A

Yes. It does retcon JFA. That's why this threat exists. To explain it away.
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AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
Yes. It does retcon JFA. That's why this threat exists. To explain it away.


Well why should we explain it, considering it flat out retcons things? When the game was localized they should've either stated that 1-5 was not canon OR slightly alter the lines in JFA and T&T, to encompass 1-5.

C-A

PS: And if it's about something we don't get, think is wrong in the game or what not, I agree with sumguy, that's what the Cough Up thread is for.
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I thought the cough up thread was just for pointing things out, though...? And discussion?

The goal of this thread is to come up with actual explanations. It's just supposed to be a joke thread, really... I didn't want anyone to take it so seriously...?
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AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
I thought the cough up thread was just for pointing things out, though...? And discussion?

The goal of this thread is to come up with actual explanations. It's just supposed to be a joke thread, really... I didn't want anyone to take it so seriously...?


Those two don't mix. You can't want a serious discussion about problems or contradictions in the game and yet say in the same sentence that this is a joke thread. I already have very little patience for joke threads And the Cough Up thread is for pointing things out, but also for discussion, like what if someone saw a contradiction, but it's then pointed out to not be one since it's explained in-game.

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I think her point is that this thread is supposed to be just explanations. Take her drunk Phoenix explanation for example. If she wanted to post that on the cough-up thread, someone would first have to post Phoenix's personality being different as a contradiction
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CatMuto wrote:
AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
I thought the cough up thread was just for pointing things out, though...? And discussion?

The goal of this thread is to come up with actual explanations. It's just supposed to be a joke thread, really... I didn't want anyone to take it so seriously...?


Those two don't mix. You can't want a serious discussion about problems or contradictions in the game and yet say in the same sentence that this is a joke thread. I already have very little patience for joke threads And the Cough Up thread is for pointing things out, but also for discussion, like what if someone saw a contradiction, but it's then pointed out to not be one since it's explained in-game.

C-A

I meant actual explanations in the sense that so far anybody has yet to advance an explanation for a contradiction. No. I don't want serious discussion here. You want another example? Of an actual explanation that is not remotely serious?

Right after the events of RftA, some nefarious individual dumped amnesia-inducing drugs into the Los Angeles water supply. No one really remembers February 2017.

And if you have little patience for joke threads, you should have left as soon as you saw one of the initial examples involving Phoenix being drunk for the majority of AJ. How could this possiblybe a serious thread after that?

Edit:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I think her point is that this thread is supposed to be just explanations. Take her drunk Phoenix explanation for example. If she wanted to post that on the cough-up thread, someone would first have to post Phoenix's personality being different as a contradiction

Yes, thank you. :yogi:
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JesusMonroe wrote:
I think her point is that this thread is supposed to be just explanations. Take her drunk Phoenix explanation for example. If she wanted to post that on the cough-up thread, someone would first have to post Phoenix's personality being different as a contradiction


Not necessarily. What she could've done was write it into the cough up thread and then ask, "could it be because he's drunk or just criminally stupid?" (the latter applying to everyone in the series)

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CatMuto wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
I think her point is that this thread is supposed to be just explanations. Take her drunk Phoenix explanation for example. If she wanted to post that on the cough-up thread, someone would first have to post Phoenix's personality being different as a contradiction


Not necessarily. What she could've done was write it into the cough up thread and then ask, "could it be because he's drunk or just criminally stupid?" (the latter applying to everyone in the series)

C-A

Nope. Not as much fun.
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Also, about Edgeworth's "suicide" once again, considering it was over the Turnabout Goodbyes, wouldn't that be 3 months late, then? That's some slow realization there.

Now that we talka about months I stilll have yet to find a single reason of why the main games take place throughout whole years, while events of AAI unfold in, like, 3 days. It just... Doesn't sit right with me.
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Nearavex wrote:
Also, about Edgeworth's "suicide" once again, considering it was over the Turnabout Goodbyes, wouldn't that be 3 months late, then? That's some slow realization there.

People don't kill themselves when they feel depressed for a day. It's an ongoing battle. Edgeworth "killed himself" after three months cause he couldn't handle it anymore
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And now I'm off on a reply spree.

Nearavex wrote:
Still, suicide over win record? Wouldn't that be, like, half a year late?

Depression doesn't always result in spontaneous reaction. He probably mulled over it for a while, and decided the Prosecutor's Office was not the place to mull over it.

CatMuto wrote:
Here's another contradiction to kindly try to explain away then: Why did Edgeworth win the "King of Prosecutor" trophy if all he did in GS1 was lose every single case we saw him prosecute? Isn't the KoP supposed to be for people who, like, are the best of the best of the best and didn't lose a case all year long?

C-A

This trophy was awarded to VK a whole lot because he never took a vacation in 40 years. We can't say the same for anyone else. It's easiest to assume that during his period of depression, Edgeworth still maintained a diligent record.

sumguy28 wrote:
Explain this: Prior to Edgeworth "updating" the autopsy report, we are told that the victim died from "loss of blood due to being struck by a blunt object, sir!" You CANNOT die instantly due to loss of blood.

He certainly was aware of it, so he asked for a second autopsy report. I'm convinced that he was trolling Phoenix all along and in case of backfire, blame Gumshoe.

AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
I've read that in Japanese, it was actually wine. Because the Japanese word for wine literally translates back into English as "grape juice". Also, those are clearly wine bottles.

No, it's grape juice. グレープジュース, in katakana. There's no mixing it up with wine.

That means Phoenix got drunk on alcohol-free grape juice. Still, it's within the realm of possibility that some bit of alcohol made it into the brand because of a manufacturing error.

CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Edgeworth's "suicide" was right after the forged evidence scandal in RftA, which very clearly affected him deeply. The natural assumption in that situation would be to assume that it was over that.


Considering 1-5 outright RETCONS something about Edgeworth, I refuse to take that case into any consideration for anything. It's a dumb case, too long, contradicts itself and retcons Edgeworth's character (making the character change from JFA obsolete)

C-A

It did retcon his character, but it didn't make the change obsolete. It just smoothed out the transition between the emo version of him and the revived version. Since RftA ended on such a happy note, it makes the more sense that Phoenix would feel "betrayed" by Edgeworth's disappearance. It's difficult to read a depressed person's state of mind sometimes.

Nearavex wrote:
Now that we talka about months I stilll have yet to find a single reason of why the main games take place throughout whole years, while events of AAI unfold in, like, 3 days. It just... Doesn't sit right with me.

Phoenix is a lazy bum. Edgeworth suffers from psychiatric disorders since a young age and tries working off his stress with more stress. Apollo has been brainwashed by the drunk Phoenix and has become just as lazy. And just Athena. That's all we need to know.
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Last edited by Rubia Ryu the Royal on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Well, we only have their words on it actually being grape juice.
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Plus, Shadi Smith's actions make a lot more sense if he was an angry drunk. Phoenix could just take a bunch of wine bottles and put "grape juice" labels on them
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So he wasn't just hiding his emotions with that poker face; he was even hiding his facial complexion?
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Honestly, I feel like it's well within the realm of possibility for Phoenix to get drunk off of something non-alcoholic.
He was a high-functioning grapejuiceaholic, I guess.

Edit:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Apollo has been brainwashed by the drunk Phoenix and has become just as lazy.

Are we sure that's not canon? :klavier:
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I think it's more likely he was hiding his pot of weed behind those grape juice bottles.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
I think it's more likely he was hiding his pot of weed behind those grape juice bottles.

Is that why he was acting so sketchy in his phone call to Kristoph?
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AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
I think it's more likely he was hiding his pot of weed behind those grape juice bottles.

Is that why he was acting so sketchy in his phone call to Kristoph?


Pfffhahahahah

And if someone would succeed in getting drunk without alcohol, it'd be Phoenix for sure.
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The Contradictions section of this site wrote:
AA takes place in the future, and yet this isn't reflected in the technology present in the game, save for in a few very advanced instances.

Obviously, the world really did end on December 21, 2012, although no one really likes to talk about it. The point is, technology had to re-advance. Rapidly. Everything was back to normal by 2016, except for cell phones, which were permanently delayed, hence why video phones were the big new thing in 2027.
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You know, this is sounding close to the Headcanon thread... just saying. *goes to put ice on face*

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CatMuto wrote:
Considering 1-5 outright RETCONS something about Edgeworth, I refuse to take that case into any consideration for anything. It's a dumb case, too long, contradicts itself and retcons Edgeworth's character (making the character change from JFA obsolete)

No, Cat. You are the contradiction. Rule of thumb, if I write in small text above normal sized text, it's probably a joke.
2-4's "character development" for Edgeworth states that he goes from an obsessed corrupt prosecutor who would be willing to forge evidence for a victory to a man who believes that only the truth is acceptable. The problem with this is that we never even see the obsessed corrupt prosecutor Phoenix claimed he was. Why didn't Edgeworth forge anything in 1-3, where the police lacked any useful evidence? Why didn't he forge anything in 3-4? All he needed was a white scarf not covered in dirt, and the trial would have been over in the first 20 minutes. Hell, they even imply there that the demon is probably just a rumor. It's Diego who assumes that Edgeworth "forged" evidence, but what's the forged evidence? The witness' testimony. Something made entirely by little miss evil herself, Dahlia. 1-2 is actually where Edgeworth is least obsessed corrupted. Look back at the trial, and you'll notice that Edgeworth only becomes aggressive after Phoenix accuses him of forgery, which as stated above, was not actually a forgery. And if we do assume that no one called him out on the forgery, then we have to assume that the nameless characters are even bigger idiots than the named characters something that FFXIII tried to push on us.
Actually let's talk about Phoenix. He's the one who introduces the player to the idea that Edgeworth is an inhumane demon. How does he know this? From rumors. Yeah. Rumors. Real trustworthy source of information. He gives us this inhumane image and what do we get?
Image
That's it. Where is this vile madman we had described to us? Simple. It's nothing more than an idea in Phoenix's head. It's about as well-informed as Ema's thoughts on Edgeworth. In fact, I'm pretty sure that was entire reason why Ema was such a fangirl for Edgeworth. It's a poorly informed opinion based almost entirely on hearsay. Just. Like. Phoenix.
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Phoenix being an asshole is pretty well-documented.
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"It's about time you confess your crime: You placed the wiretap in Mia Fey's office."
"That proves only one thing: that Redd White was in the office that day. Further investigation is needed."

I'm not really sure he's entirely clean...
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Nearavex wrote:
"It's about time you confess your crime: You placed the wiretap in Mia Fey's office."
"That proves only one thing: that Redd White was in the office that day. Further investigation is needed."

I'm not really sure he's entirely clean...

Edgeworth being an asshole is also pretty well-documented.

Actually, the fact that most of the characters in this series are unrepentant jerks is one of my favourite things. :wellington:
Edit: AND THAT'S BECAUSE NONE OF US GOT ENOUGH LOVE IN OUR CHILDHOODS /Chicago
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CatMuto wrote:
You know, this is sounding close to the Headcanon thread... just saying. *goes to put ice on face*

C-A

It's a little different, if you think about it. Headcanon refers to wild mass conjecture. This thread is more about using conjecture to explain conjecture, while the Cough Up thread is strictly for identifying major plot holes or contradictions, and being able to use evidence to back up explanations for the confused.

Or so it seems. Airey, what exactly did you mean by this thread?
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
You know, this is sounding close to the Headcanon thread... just saying. *goes to put ice on face*

C-A

It's a little different, if you think about it. Headcanon refers to wild mass conjecture. This thread is more about using conjecture to explain conjecture, while the Cough Up thread is strictly for identifying major plot holes or contradictions, and being able to use evidence to back up explanations for the confused.

Or so it seems. Airey, what exactly did you mean by this thread?

Sort of a cross between the headcanons and cough-up threads, kinda. Like, we point out plot contradictions... and then start the wild mass guessing. It's supposed to spawn rediculous fantheories, basically.
Re: Let's Explain Away ContradictionsTopic%20Title
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AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
Or so it seems. Airey, what exactly did you mean by this thread?

Sort of a cross between the headcanons and cough-up threads, kinda. Like, we point out plot contradictions... and then start the wild mass guessing. It's supposed to spawn rediculous fantheories, basically.[/quote]

So basically headcanon.

C-A
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Quote:
CatMuto wrote:
AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
Or so it seems. Airey, what exactly did you mean by this thread?

Sort of a cross between the headcanons and cough-up threads, kinda. Like, we point out plot contradictions... and then start the wild mass guessing. It's supposed to spawn rediculous fantheories, basically.


So basically headcanon.

C-A

No. ...I don't think we have the same definition of "headcanon" here?
Re: Let's Explain Away ContradictionsTopic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
AireyVerkhovensky wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Or so it seems. Airey, what exactly did you mean by this thread?

Sort of a cross between the headcanons and cough-up threads, kinda. Like, we point out plot contradictions... and then start the wild mass guessing. It's supposed to spawn rediculous fantheories, basically.


So basically headcanon.

C-A

No. Headcanon consists of theories/ideas/inferences that a fan legitimately believes and uses to increase the enjoyment received from a work of fiction. Ridiculous fan theories are simply jokes used as silly entertainment, not to be taken seriously. For example, my headcanon on FFX is that Yuna didn't break tradition because of Tidus, she broke tradition because she witnessed the corruption surrounding the tradition and Tidus had nothing to do with it. Meanwhile, my ridiculous fan theory on FFXIII is that Hope Estheim is an alternate universe version of Ken Amada. Actually, that one could also count as headcanon.

You know, all of this could be fixed if we simply had a crack theory thread.
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Oh, what's this?

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This basically IS the Crack Theory thread now. (Airey, I recommend that you change the thread title, so people won't get confused.) And on that note, I offer up something I've been thinking for a while now.

Klavier has a dependency and inferiority complex that he subconsciously seeks to maintain. Because since childhood, he's always looked up to his older brother, it's kind of sunk into the recesses of his mind. After confronting his bro in court in that one case, he's lost a part of himself in a way. To compensate for it, he almost relies on Apollo to make sure there's someone else he can "tail after", so to speak, and as a result, gives Apollo the wrong impression that he's stalking him for other purposes...

Phoenix always noticed this, so he never intended to personally confront Klavier, lest he unlock some rather dark secrets he doesn't need to know. It explains why he doesn't feel any grudge toward Klavier for getting him disbarred (and it was partly his own fault anyway). Besides, we all know Phoenix is a lazy bum about lawsuits that he's not personally involved in.

Now that I think about it, maybe Apollo noticed something or two whenever he meets with Klavier, but can never figure out what's so weird. All the more reason to avoid him.

Ya know, I actually could do a little character analyses for various characters, especially since GS4 and 5 leave so many open holes. I may be back with something new at a later date. Heh heh heh...
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