WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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...if real life jury duty consisted of playing text adventures, I bet everyone would love it.
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Rookie wrote:
It's this clever little interactive video show that Wright developed to manipulate a jury so they could have access to information that they wouldn't have to decide things they shouldn't be deciding.
Because the jury is filled with people stupid enough to believe that he can travel through time? It can't possibly be actually meant to deceive anyone if it is truly shown the jury in the way we see it because no one (even in the PW/AJ world) is stupid enough to believe that Phoenix can jump into the future and then come back to the past as he does several times in the MASON system. They don't even make an attempt to make the pieces fit together smoothly and it shows us things that the jury wouldn't need to see for the case (Valant's confession for example which plays a decent role in Phoenix's story but has no bearing on the main case in 4-4). I still think it was meant entirely for the player to show us what we need to know about Phoenix's past.
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Mia_Fey wrote:
Rookie wrote:
It's this clever little interactive video show that Wright developed to manipulate a jury so they could have access to information that they wouldn't have to decide things they shouldn't be deciding.
Because the jury is filled with people stupid enough to believe that he can travel through time? It can't possibly be actually meant to deceive anyone if it is truly shown the jury in the way we see it because no one (even in the PW/AJ world) is stupid enough to believe that Phoenix can jump into the future and then come back to the past as he does several times in the MASON system. They don't even make an attempt to make the pieces fit together smoothly and it shows us things that the jury wouldn't need to see for the case (Valant's confession for example which plays a decent role in Phoenix's story but has no bearing on the main case in 4-4). I still think it was meant entirely for the player to show us what we need to know about Phoenix's past.
They don't need to believe he's traveling through time, just that he's providing accurate information. Providing more background information was intentional. It helps play on the juries' sympathies.
This is what we call playing the devil's advocate.
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Rookie wrote:
They don't need to believe he's traveling through time, just that he's providing accurate information. Providing more background information was intentional. It helps play on the juries' sympathies.
This is what we call playing the devil's advocate.
This is what we call playing the devil's advocate.
The MASON system is clearly edited and abridged, so why would they take that information at face value particularly considering Phoenix has a clear bias? We might know that Phoenix can be trusted, but the jury has no reason to believe such an outlandish tale and had he really meant it for the jury, why didn't he make some attempt to make it more reasonable? He also includes more than a little background. By the start of the trial, he's solved the case from seven years ago (whose only real relation to the current case is discovering who was the defense attorney before Phoenix, but is vital for the player's knowledge so that the big question of what happened to Phoenix is finally answered) and the current one. We aren't talking just basic background here. Also much of the time, he does seem to be addressing the player. For example, Phoenix talks about the psyche-locks right at the beginning. Why does Phoenix go out of his way to tell his audience about the psych-locks which we know that only Phoenix can see? It would have been far easier to simply go through with the questioning and just have the jury see him getting the answers to his questions rather than trying to explain something that he knows they can't see themselves (for game play purposes we could have been could just as easily been told through his thoughts like when he tells us how to use it later, but Phoenix goes out of his way to make a point of addressing it aloud). Not only that, but Phoenix compares it to Apollo's bracelet right away and while the jury may be able to see Apollo use his powers, they wouldn't know that Apollo used the bracelet. They would only know that he had a special talent. Comparing it to the bracelet was for the player's benefit, particularly new ones who don't know what the magatama is and again addressing it like this aloud wouldn't serve any purpose for the jury.
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Either way, I pretty much felt it was just for the player, not anyone else. [shrugs]
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Most people are not clever enough to understand the MASON System.
That's more a problem for Capcom than anyone else, though.
It's worth pointing out that the OP had not finished 4-4 when he started this topic, which is an important point - it is indeed very confusing the first time through and you need to have finished the MASON section to fully understand it. Now, to the point of this post:
I am no longer going to state my opinion on this topic. I am going to state the facts. If you dispute these facts, you'd best have a good argument - by all means present it. There are few ways the MASON System makes sense - in fact I believe there is only one. I'm getting sick and tired of seeing people argue over this topic, so now it's time to iron it out and commit it to canon knowledge. Here we go:
- During the MASON System section, you play as a Juror, specifically Juror #6
Phoenix appears in the MASON System as a holographic guide
The events of the MASON System are presented on a holographic imaging system
All of the events portrayed in the MASON System took place, although not necessarily in the way portrayed
The MASON System is not considered evidence nor testimony
The MASON System is fed information on a case's history and infers the best possible explanation for these events
The MASON System's primary function is to further demonstrate the relevance of evidence presented in court
The MASON System's secondary function is to demonstrate the emotional and environmental background to a case
The MASON System is NOT an investigation
The MASON System is NOT an historical archive
Psyche-Locks appear in the MASON System as Phoenix would have seen them; you see things from his point of view
Psyche-Lock information is inferred based on the lies told by persons portrayed in the system
Evidence is abstracted to demonstrate the connections between elements and their relevance more thoroughly to uninvolved third parties; the jury
Please bear in mind when replying to this post that what you think of the MASON System as a component of a trial is outside the scope of this discussion. Keep the moral complaints and compliments at the door - all this is about is what the MASON System is, what it does, and how it does it. Keep it simple. :)
(Ignoring this post entirely gets a /slap. :D )
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Asura Velotix wrote:
That benefits no-one. Please elaborate. :)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
Long list of obnoxious words that assumed a lot of things and none to subtly called people who didn't agree with it stupid.
People are free to interpret this portion of the game as it suits them. Your interpretation is mostly sound, but you could have presented it in a way that was not designed to talk down to everyone else discussing the topic. Would've been nice if you added in some explanation as to why you thought those points, as well, instead of just saying THIS ARE FACT. Mostly as to why you thought we were viewing the MASON system as Juror #6, then anything else.
Besides, nothing in the MASON system was really relevant to the trial at the time you got to play it, as the real guilty party had not even been mentioned, let alone really connected to the case. Actually, half the people in the MASON system were unconnected to the case. If this is true, then the jury really shouldn't have seen it, even if we can prove they did. [Which I am still under the impression they didn't. It just doesn't make sense...]
...It's probably best not to think about that much. Let alone present your musings on it as fact, and if any should argue this 'fact' they are morons.
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These are facts as far as I'm aware:
- As far as I know, no direct link between the jurist system and the MASON System was ever specified.
- No character mentions the MASON System by name ingame.
These are my conclusions:
It's a exceptional enough circumstance that the jurist system is implemented at all; to also subject folks (especially jumbled up #6) a freaky mess like the MASON System would be too extreme.
From this, I believe it makes more sense that the MASON System doesn't exist in the game world.
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Mr.D wrote:
As far as I know, no direct link between the jurist system and the MASON System was ever specified. It's a exceptional enough circumstance that the jurist system is implemented at all; to also subject folks (especially jumbled up #6) a freaky mess like the MASON System would be too extreme. No character mentions the MASON System by name ingame. From this, I believe it makes more sense that the MASON System doesn't exist in the game world.
Except for the fact that Lamiroir clearly played through MASON based on what she says afterwards, and that the "Guilty or Not Guilty" scene is still running on MASON.
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The guilty screen has got MASON's sound effects, but I don't believe it's MASON. Can't prove it though, I just think it would be weird. What's wrong with a not-using-Phoenix's-top-secret-weird-system system to say Guilty or Not Guilty? (Was a futuristic themed touchscreen just an excuse to show Lamiroir's bracelet?)
Every line of reasoning I can think of comes back to Hobo: he's the one who (presumably) instigated its creation, it was created purely to serve his purpose, he's the only one who truly knows what it is, he's the one who mediates its use, and its first run is a replay of his investigation from his point of view.
Given that he's an infinitely intelligent, prescient, invincible ex-attorney with courtroom influence beyond reason, I can't totally put his brainchild, the MASON System, outside the realm of reality. Any reality that's bizarre enough to support Hobo can support the MASON System.
Let's just hope he never meets Klavier. That would be quite a contrast.
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Last edited by Mr.D on Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Spoiler: Kinda for 4-3, but if you're reading this topic you should already know it
Also, what did she say that led you to believe she played through it?
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I apologise if I've come across as arrogant, but this issue has been done to death and often it sounds like people are consistently ignoring other people's viewpoints whenever this topic is raised, so I decided to be more direct this time around. I discussed the issue of the MASON System at length in this topic: http://forums.court-records.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7396&st=0&sk=t&sd=a. It's worth a read, but the issue of the MASON System has multiple tangents and even discussing it can become confusing. Capcom deserve a slap, really.
This thread is rapidly becoming epic. In response:
Sakuro wrote:
People are free to interpret this portion of the game as it suits them. Your interpretation is mostly sound, but you could have presented it in a way that was not designed to talk down to everyone else discussing the topic....It's probably best not to think about that much. Let alone present your musings on it as fact, and if any should argue this 'fact' they are morons.
I present my musings as fact this time around for the following reason: one - it's obnoxious enough to make it impossible to ignore, as you have proven, and two - there are indeed alternative arguments, but none that I've seen that hold water so far. The arguments up to now have been focussed on the moral implications of the system. Before we dive into that again I'd prefer to fully establish how the system operates, because it confuses the hell out of everyone. I did not intend to suggest that disagreeing with my viewpoint automatically makes you an idiot and for that misunderstanding I apologise, but I did mean to suggest that simply saying "your post is crap and I'm not dignifying your post with a response because you suck" is pointless. ;)
Already we're getting somewhere. Hurrah for the direct approach! :D
Sakuro wrote:
Besides, nothing in the MASON system was really relevant to the trial at the time you got to play it, as the real guilty party had not even been mentioned, let alone really connected to the case. Actually, half the people in the MASON system were unconnected to the case. If this is true, then the jury really shouldn't have seen it, even if we can prove they did. [Which I am still under the impression they didn't. It just doesn't make sense...]
This is indeed an interesting observation and rebuttal to my version of events. It's also never been brought up here before. I find it difficult to argue that many of the events in the MASON System are directly related to the case. I'm not convinced they're irrelevant either, but right now I'm having trouble finding the words to suggest why.
Sakuro wrote:
Would've been nice if you added in some explanation as to why you thought those points, as well, instead of just saying THIS ARE FACT. Mostly as to why you thought we were viewing the MASON system as Juror #6, then anything else.
I was trying to avoid TL;DR. :P
I'll go into more detail in another post because this post is already going to be a whale. As for Juror #6, this was how I understood it; you end the MASON session, talk to the Phoenix holo, then place your verdict. At no time does your viewpoint move out of nor into Lamiroir's head, so it makes sense that you were playing as Juror #6.
Mr. D wrote:
These are facts as far as I'm aware:
- As far as I know, no direct link between the jurist system and the MASON System was ever specified.
- No character mentions the MASON System by name ingame.
These are my conclusions:
It's a exceptional enough circumstance that the jurist system is implemented at all; to also subject folks (especially jumbled up #6) a freaky mess like the MASON System would be too extreme.
From this, I believe it makes more sense that the MASON System doesn't exist in the game world.
- As far as I know, no direct link between the jurist system and the MASON System was ever specified.
- No character mentions the MASON System by name ingame.
These are my conclusions:
It's a exceptional enough circumstance that the jurist system is implemented at all; to also subject folks (especially jumbled up #6) a freaky mess like the MASON System would be too extreme.
From this, I believe it makes more sense that the MASON System doesn't exist in the game world.
Trilroy wrote:
Except for the fact that Lamiroir clearly played through MASON based on what she says afterwards, and that the "Guilty or Not Guilty" scene is still running on MASON.
(Random fact: we called my old primary school teacher Mr. D. He was cool.)
I'm with Trilroy on this one: the MASON System is meant to be portrayed as the system that makes the Jurist System work. Trilroy also pointed out an important oversight; the link you're looking for is the Guilty/Not Guilty scene. It's been interpreted as a "do you want to win?" button by many people, but I never saw that as the point even considering the bad ending.
Mr. D wrote:
What's wrong with a not-using-Phoenix's-top-secret-weird-system system to say Guilty or Not Guilty? (Was a futuristic themed touchscreen just an excuse to show Lamiroir's bracelet?)
As a general rule of designing software, you try to automate as much of the process as possible to make it easier for the end user to use (and a nightmare for the IT admins :P). With this in mind, it is entirely plausible that the MASON System would accomodate a Guilty/Not Guilty vote. It also has the added benefit of each vote being secret, to prevent the jury pressurising one another. It's also totally an excuse to show off the bracelet. :P
Sakuro wrote:
Yeah, I think the jury screen was the same as the MASON systems appearance because they didn't want to make a new one. XD
That's one way of looking at it! Cheap with the effects budget though Capcom is, I have to strongly disagree. :P
Sakuro wrote:
What I want to know is how Lamiroir picked between the guilty/not guilty screens if she was blind... ...but maybe thats just me. XD
The ending, with Lamiroir referring to being "in the light" is meant as a metaphor for her regaining her sight; she's had an operation to restore her eyesight, as Phoenix suggested to her at the end of 4-3.
Sakuro wrote:
Also, what did she say that led you to believe she played through it?
I've forgotten this too. Can someone refresh my memory? :P
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Mia_Fey wrote:
The Mason system has that weird computer-like background, while in that last scene the area behind him is simply black.
You seem to be suggesting that the MASON System is an application running on a supercomputer as opposed to the supercomputer itself. I hadn't thought of it that way.
As for the intros, I've never considered the intros canon. As far as I'm concerned, they're just visual flavour text to get you into the story's frame of mind. That's why 4-4 has three intros - each section is very different.
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Asura Velotix wrote:
As for the intros, I've never considered the intros canon. As far as I'm concerned, they're just visual flavour text to get you into the story's frame of mind. That's why 4-4 has three intros - each section is very different.
The intro's are specifically placed though. There is the opening one, then there is one before you switch to Phoenix's point of view (in which he seems to be narrating and includes the Mason system), and then one last one which begins only after you choose the option saying you're ready to proceed. The last one doesn't start up automatically like the others, which to me indicates that we temporarily stepped out of the game to find out what we needed to know about Phoenix and now we are stepping back into it. It's the first time we've seen a set up like that with three introductory scenes and the fact that the intros seem to have been specifically placed indicates, at least to me, that they were supposed to signal a break in the game in which the Mason system occurs for the player's eyes only.
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Mia_Fey wrote:
The intro's are specifically placed though.
They're not canon, though (with the possible exceptions of 1-1, 2-2 and 3-3). They are, however, important in describing the general flavour of a case before you get to the action. There are usually a few inaccuracies in the intros though that stop them being canon. If you want to go into this further, I suggest making a topic. :)
Tayuya wrote:
The MASON system really confused me too. My personal theory (which my brother thinks makes no sense) is that it's some sort of power the Magatama gives Phoenix. I couldn't think of any better explanation.
O_o Please explain this one because I've got no idea how you thought that one up. XD
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Asura Velotix wrote:
Mia_Fey wrote:
The intro's are specifically placed though.
They're not canon, though (with the possible exceptions of 1-1, 2-2 and 3-3). They are, however, important in describing the general flavour of a case before you get to the action. There are usually a few inaccuracies in the intros though that stop them being canon. If you want to go into this further, I suggest making a topic. :)
I don't think Mia Fey's point was that the introductions were canon, because the introductions she's talking about aren't the cutscenes. She's talking about the ones that seem to indicate we've moved to a different point of view, for example, we're not Apollo anymore, we're just the player. So whether or not the events shown in these switches are canon or not isn't the point. At least, that's what I think she was originally getting at. XP This is fun~
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Sakuro wrote:
Asura Velotix wrote:
They're not canon, though (with the possible exceptions of 1-1, 2-2 and 3-3). They are, however, important in describing the general flavour of a case before you get to the action. There are usually a few inaccuracies in the intros though that stop them being canon. If you want to go into this further, I suggest making a topic. :)
I don't think Mia Fey's point was that the introductions were canon, because the introductions she's talking about aren't the cutscenes. She's talking about the ones that seem to indicate we've moved to a different point of view, for example, we're not Apollo anymore, we're just the player. So whether or not the events shown in these switches are canon or not isn't the point. At least, that's what I think she was originally getting at. XP This is fun~
You get a cookie, Sakuro. That was my point. What happens in the intros isn't the issue, its the very fact that we have three specifically placed intros that seem to signify changes in the view point and audience.
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Before I forget, here's some more detail on the
- During the MASON System section, you play as a Juror, specifically Juror #6
This was how I understood it; you end the MASON session, talk to the Phoenix holo, then place your verdict. At no time does your viewpoint move out of nor into Lamiroir's head, so it makes sense that you were playing as Juror #6.
Phoenix appears in the MASON System as a holographic guide
Unless there's some kind of bizarre space-time phenomenon in the courtroom, Phoenix can't be standing in or by the computer, so you're simply seeing him on the screen. (I can't decide whether the hologram is Phoenix himself or an automated copy of Phoenix; maybe it's a bit of both. Still, that's an opinion which I promised not to go into.)
The events of the MASON System are presented on a holographic imaging system
The MASON cutscenes alone give this away; a 3D imaging system is absolutely necessary to do the kinds of things the MASON System does. There's just no other way it can work.
All of the events portrayed in the MASON System took place, although not necessarily in the way portrayed
In order for a computer to be able to display events in the way the MASON System does, it would have to know what happened in each of the eight scenarios. Computers are not sophisticated enough to dream up elaborate (false) scenarios, although they are able to infer more basic elements, such as the infamous time-travelling evidence, which is nothing more than an abstraction. It can't be anything else because then it would contradict the laws of physics! XD (I'm surprised that no-one's mentioned how exactly Phoenix's conversation with Brushel got on the system because he would have had a maximum of two days to add it into the system. That's easily the most worrying part of the entire sequence!)
The MASON System is not considered evidence nor testimony
The MASON System, being factually fudged and being a simulation, would be neither admissable as evidence nor testimony respectively. It's the "third pillar", to coin an underrated term - an emotion gauge. Evidence is only partially effective at demonstrating motive and emotional backdrop - most of this is lawyers filling in the blanks. The MASON System is much more direct.
The MASON System is fed information on a case's history and infers the best possible explanation for these events
Following on from the earlier points, to construct the scenario, the system would have to compile a series of data (video recordings, testimonials, evidence) into a working simulation. A side-effect of this is there is absolutely no way that the system can produce a 100% guaranteed accurate reproduction of the original scenario - the only way to do that would be real world time travel.
The MASON System's primary function is to further demonstrate the relevance of evidence presented in court
Like the AA games in general, presenting the evidence to people makes it clear how exactly the evidence relates to the case, whether the player (or juror) presenting the evidence knows the full story or not. Most importantly, this allows the jurors to connect with the evidence in a much more intimate way than staring at it from across a courtroom, and allows them to put the evidence into context.
The MASON System's secondary function is to demonstrate the emotional and environmental background to a case
The MASON System appears to be capable of emulating realistic human emotion. That little piece of sci-fi aside, by reliving a scenario in context and playing off the reactions of the people you question, you are able to immerse yourself in the experience and gain intimate knowledge of the atmosphere of a case and the emotional states of the people involved. It helps to better answer the question: "why?"
The MASON System is NOT an investigation
Everything in the MASON System happened or is inferred from what happened. Whilst investigations reveal information not known to the person investigating, in the context of a police or civil investigation, the MASON System provides no new information.
The MASON System is NOT an historical archive
As has been stated many times by myself and others, the version of events depicted in the system are not entirely accurate, and so cannot be used as an historical archive.
Psyche-Locks appear in the MASON System as Phoenix would have seen them; you see things from his point of view
All of the events in the MASON session are from Phoenix's point of view. It logically follows that if Phoenix could see it, so could the person "playing as" Phoenix, including Psyche-Locks.
Psyche-Lock information is inferred based on the lies told by persons portrayed in the system
Psyche-Lock information would either be derived from a testimonial by Phoenix because there is no other way of acquiring this information from quantifiable recorded data or alternatively be derived from the importance of a secret as judged by the MASON System based on an unspecified set of parameters. Simulating the appearance and function of psyche-locks would be surprisingly easy even for a modern computer system - it's a sophisticated lie detector. In other words, it's either based on Phoenix's word, or is an element of the MASON System itself. Both are possible but ultimately amount to the same thing for the purposes of 4-4.
Evidence is abstracted to demonstrate the connections between elements and their relevance more thoroughly to uninvolved third parties; the jury
In keeping with the goals of the MASON System, acquiring the evidence realistically would at times hinder these agendas or would in fact cause an improbability to become an impossibility and render the simulation grossly inaccurate. An example: Examining the Drew Studio of seven years ago will reveal the nail polish, sitting on the small table. If Phoenix takes this bottle as evidence, Vera could not become critically ill on the stand nor would she be able to leave the house without becoming hysterical. In other words, what actually happened in court that day would be impossible. The MASON System therefore takes a creative liberty and borrows a bottle from the future. It's the least improbable of two very improbable scenarios. More importantly, taking the bottle from Kristoph more directly establishes the relevance of the nail polish to the case than taking it from Vera would.
Two things:
Sakuro wrote:
Besides, nothing in the MASON system was really relevant to the trial at the time you got to play it, as the real guilty party had not even been mentioned, let alone really connected to the case. Actually, half the people in the MASON system were unconnected to the case. If this is true, then the jury really shouldn't have seen it, even if we can prove they did. [Which I am still under the impression they didn't. It just doesn't make sense...]
The way you worded it has the odd side-effect of separating the case and the trial. This is actually a pretty good way to look at it - whilst the events in the MASON System session aren't directly related to the first trial, they are directly related to the case, as is later proven by the second trial.
Because it is related to the case, especially in ther context of emotional background it is important that the jury sees it, which is further evidence that strongly implies that all six members of the jury participated in a MASON System simulation. What we don't know is if all six simulations played out the same way, but it doesn't seem relevant; either ending has at least five of the jury vote "Not Guilty".
Mia_Fey wrote:
What happens in the intros isn't the issue, its the very fact that we have three specifically placed intros that seem to signify changes in the view point and audience.
Hah, now I realise that you're referring to the gap between the MASON System session and the verdict. I'd completely forgotten about that. I suppose it does make the identity of the juror playing the MASON sim unclear, but I see no reason to suggest it wasn't #6 and it makes less sense thematically to be playing a random jury member. It can't be proven either way though, admittedly.
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Don't believe me, here's the article to prove it: http://www.hawaii.edu/aplpj/pdfs/v6.01_ ... slation%22
Anyway, back onto the topic. I do believe that the Mason system is something that will be brought up in the future. As Mia Fey said and as well as Asura Velotix has brought up countless of times, there are too many inconsistencies that cannot be explained at the moment, possibly in GS5. But in all seriousness, think of it as a beginning. Don't think too much of it but keep it in mind.
Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Asura Velotix wrote:
Sakuro wrote:
Besides, nothing in the MASON system was really relevant to the trial at the time you got to play it, as the real guilty party had not even been mentioned, let alone really connected to the case. Actually, half the people in the MASON system were unconnected to the case. If this is true, then the jury really shouldn't have seen it, even if we can prove they did. [Which I am still under the impression they didn't. It just doesn't make sense...]
The way you worded it has the odd side-effect of separating the case and the trial. This is actually a pretty good way to look at it - whilst the events in the MASON System session aren't directly related to the first trial, they are directly related to the case, as is later proven by the second trial.
Because it is related to the case, especially in ther context of emotional background it is important that the jury sees it, which is further evidence that strongly implies that all six members of the jury participated in a MASON System simulation. What we don't know is if all six simulations played out the same way, but it doesn't seem relevant; either ending has at least five of the jury vote "Not Guilty".
Hm. I was just thinking, but do you think the jury would have really needed to see the MASON system simulation or whatever it was, to declare Vera not guilty? The jury doesn't really need to understand exactly what was behind everything in the killer's mind to pass a verdict. What's important is how, why, and who, as well as suffiecient proof for those theories. And Apollo covered those in the trial. Sure, the MASON system might have helped them really understand everything that had happened, but I don't think it was completely nessecary for them to have seen the things in the system for them to understand the case. In fact, it might be too much information. [shrugs]
Also, I just pointed out that they probably shouldn't have been shown it to the jury, because even though you're right, the people in it were relevant to the case, the relationship hadn't been proven yet. Kind of like how you have to prove evidences relavance when you present it. But we've already decided that the MASON system wasn't really supposed to be testimony or evidence, I believe. However, since the relationship wasn't proven in court at the time the MASON system would have been 'presented' to the jury, if we can assume it was indeed presented between the end of the first part of the trial and the end of the entire case, it wasn't relevant, really. ...Does that make sense? >.>
So while the MASON system might have been a useful tool for the jury to really understand the case, I don't think it was vital. And that's why I think it was meant more for the player, then anyone else. Maybe we'll find out in the next game though, like Goldberg said.
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Asura Velotix wrote:
Most people are not clever enough to understand the MASON System.
Hey, guess where you can shove that attitude of yours? :D
The MASON System is a trainwreck, horribly written and horribly executed. That's all there is to it.
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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The MASON system is a simple computer application that shows videos in a certain order. It requires one to watch certain videos before watching others. It is used to document Phoenix's investigation into the trial that caused him to lose his badge and the events surrounding it, as seen through a hidden camera on his hat. This "documentary" was shown to the jurors, as shown by his final line in the MASON system: "You're the only ones who can [decide Vera's fate]." However, the "flashbacks" that the player sees during this part of the game are not the video footage shown to the jury, but are instead retellings of what actually happened to Phoenix while he investigated, presented much like Phoenix's final trial.
This is supported by several pieces of evidence:
1. The Psyche-Locks that only Phoenix should be able to see. Such a scene would almost certainly be impossible to capture on camera, and thus could not have appeared as shown without extensive video editing. Editing the footage, especially to include such an unbelievable event (and without any sort of explanation) would most certainly jeopardize Phoenix's chances of convincing the jury he was telling the truth.
2. Phoenix's thoughts. Phoenix's various internal ramblings are displayed quite often in the MASON system. Perhaps this is just me, but I find it hard to believe that Phoenix would remember what he was thinking during his investigations by the time he finished each one, let alone remember seven years later just so he could dub his thoughts over the footage from his hat-cam.
3. Unnecessary commentary. If you examine the various flashback scenes, Phoenix throws in all sorts of aural commentary about things that would only confuse the jurors: the couch in the defendant's lobby, Charley the plant, and his post-office-directions fantasy. If he had truly edited the film he took extensively enough to include Psyche-Locks and his own irrelevant, possibly even fictionalized thoughts, one would think that he would at least cut out the unnecessary bits of monologue and show his important evidence to the jurors.
Admitedly, this theory doesn't solve the mystery of Phoenix's magical time-traveling powers, but I feel it still makes much more sense than the belief that the jury was shown videos that were edited to appear as they do in the game. The events the game shows certainly wouldn't convince me that Vera was innocent if I saw the case from an outside perspective; in fact, they would make me doubt Phoenix's sanity more than anything else.
... Of course, the most likely "real" explanation is that the MASON system is just a poorly thought-out way to give the player the information they need to finish the game, but hell, it's going to be years before GS5 comes out. We have to fill the time with something, and making up inane theories to explain bad scripting sounds awriiight to me.
Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Asura Velotix wrote:
Most people are not clever enough to understand the MASON System.
Hey, guess where you can shove that attitude of yours? :D
The MASON System is a trainwreck, horribly written and horribly executed. That's all there is to it.
I don't agree that anyone who didn't like the Mason System automatically didn't understand it, but honestly Funk, insisting over and over "It was just awful" doesn't help your position any, and doesn't add to the discussion. Some of us really enjoyed the Mason System. Some of us liked it just fine, and I for one applaud the writing staff for their creativity and the fresh approach. It could have benefited from some extra explanation but that doesn't automatically make it horrible.
Asura, I agree with most of your points concerning the Mason System's function, though I think you take it a bit overboard with "Phoenix was a hologram" and "The jurors are able to emotionally empathize with Phoenix during the investigation," if that's what you were implying. I think the Mason System is as simple as a touch screen panel, and the swirling nonsense behind Phoenix is just for effect. Or, he's just talking to them through a camera, like the trial was shown to them.
As for the psyche locks that so many people seem to be confused about.... I think Phoenix must have added them digitally. Obviously they're not something a camera can pick up, but if you assume the Mason System we play is exactly the same as the Mason System the jury views, you have to also assume they can see the Psyche Locks. They're the ones going through the process of unlocking them, after all.
Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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If it were well-done, we shouldn't be arguing over what the hell it actually was XD; I'm not saying people can't enjoy it, but it's just... poorly executed, whatever it is.
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Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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CantFakeTheFunk wrote:
Hey, guess where you can shove that attitude of yours? :D
...This is what I get for posting after midnight. XD
Allow me to explain myself:
Asura Velotix wrote:
Most people are not clever enough to understand the MASON System.
That's more a problem for Capcom than anyone else, though.
That's more a problem for Capcom than anyone else, though.
Another way to put that would be:
Most people are not clever enough to understand the MASON System because the writers were so obsessed with making the MASON System mysterious that they made the damn thing near unintelligible and it would take a genius to figure it out alone.
And that isn't me. :P Capcom fail at sci-fi storytelling.
CantFakeTheFunk wrote:
My point is self-explanatory, Croik.
If it were well-done, we shouldn't be arguing over what the hell it actually was XD;
If it were well-done, we shouldn't be arguing over what the hell it actually was XD;
On that point, I agree 100%. :D
Just to clarify, because I've said it several times all over the place: the MASON System itself is horrendously explained, but everything in the MASON System session itself is genius, and I love it.
Croik wrote:
I don't agree that anyone who didn't like the Mason System automatically didn't understand it
I didn't mean to suggest that at all; the way I see it, the deeper you look into the system, the worse your opinion will be on it, generally speaking. That said, whether you like it or not has nothing to do with how well you understood a walking plothole.
Croik wrote:
Asura, I agree with most of your points concerning the Mason System's function, though I think you take it a bit overboard with "Phoenix was a hologram" and "The jurors are able to emotionally empathize with Phoenix during the investigation," if that's what you were implying. I think the Mason System is as simple as a touch screen panel, and the swirling nonsense behind Phoenix is just for effect. Or, he's just talking to them through a camera, like the trial was shown to them.
Maybe I've been watching too much Star Trek lately...
I like that idea though, and it seems more plausible given the year (2025/2026) the game is set in, actually. Kinda like a giant DS Lite with bells and whistles.
Kyunji wrote:
The MASON system is a simple computer application that shows videos in a certain order. It requires one to watch certain videos before watching others. It is used to document Phoenix's investigation into the trial that caused him to lose his badge and the events surrounding it, as seen through a hidden camera on his hat.
The likelihood of this is low for one simple reason: when did Phoenix get his hat and who gave him the pinhole camera badge? Whether this theory is plausible depends mainly on when the events in Defendant Lobby 2 and the Wright & Co. Law Offices took place - the way it's worded, I'm pretty sure it took place after Trucy starts the Wright Talent Agency. That's three weeks after the trial; not a lot of time to get hold of a custom pinhole camera badge, especially considering he had to go through a hearing concerning the forged evidence during that time as well.
Sakuro wrote:
Hm. I was just thinking, but do you think the jury would have really needed to see the MASON system simulation or whatever it was, to declare Vera not guilty? The jury doesn't really need to understand exactly what was behind everything in the killer's mind to pass a verdict.
The big sticking point with most people is this issue. The plot throughout AJ strongly implies that the existing legal system is sub-par, and that a jury who can exercise common sense is required to make the law more fair. "Common sense" is acquired from real-world experience, and so needs a real-world experience or simulation to be exercised fully.
In other words, the MASON System is necessary because it lets a jury do their job better than they could without being able to experience the case firsthand.
...(I'm starting to see why Capcom didn't bother to explain the MASON System in-game; if they did, you'd have been pressing A for hours.)
Bruce Goldberg wrote:
But in all seriousness, think of it as a beginning. Don't think too much of it but keep it in mind.
AA4 was deliberately written to be vague because this time around the likelihood of a sequel was high. As I understand it, it was very much an unknown with AA1-3. Rumour has it AA5 is the last game to follow the current plot, so chances are we'll be finding out the truth soon enough.
...Or Capcom will screw us out of a decent resolution that ties up all the loose ends like T&T again. :P
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: WTF is the MASON system? 4-4 Spoilers
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No, seriously. When I was playing through it, I kept being reminded of those last two episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
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