Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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We know that while performing a magic trick in which both Zak and Valant were supposed to fire pistols at her, with all their bullets missing her, she received a head injury and was believed to be dead. Now I highly doubt either of them purposely shot her, but I can't help now thinking maybe it wasn't a tragic accident.
The incident was kept secret, and both Zak and Valant were led to believe Thalassa had died. We know that she survived, but was blinded and lost her memory, winding up in Nothern Europe all alone. Magnifi keeping the incident quiet is not suspicious, since it would be quite the scandal, but what about everything else that happened?
Why was her survival kept secret, even from her husband and child? Did Magnifi want or need to have control over his subordinates? Or was he himself unaware of it? Had her "death" been faked by someone who perhaps sought to protect her? I think that last one is more likely. The tragic outcome of the magic trick could be the result of either someone tampering with the props or perhaps firing at her while it was going on, thus making it look like she had been shot by either Zak or Valant. Perhaps Magnifi himself was somehow behind this. One would have to question whether or not he truly cared for his daughter were that not the case. Everyone was led to believe she was dead, she was left blind despite an operation being available that could save her life, and she was abandoned alone in a small, poor country where she could not even speak the language and would have no way of surviving under normal circumstances. Why would Magnifi go to such cruel lengths to make her seem dead? It seems more like it had to be someone else, who was trying to hide her away to keep her safe. Though, if someone else was making attempts on her life-perhaps Apollo's father is a bad man who came after her?,-it's not unthinkable that Magnifi would do that to keep her safe.
Either way, I'm betting that the accident wasn't really an accident at all, though I stick by what I said about both Zak and Valant being innocent. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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TheSteelSamurai wrote:
Though, if someone else was making attempts on her life-perhaps Apollo's father is a bad man who came after her?,-it's not unthinkable that Magnifi would do that to keep her safe.
I thought the game stated that he died on stage after Apollo was born. So how could he come after Thalassa if he's dead?
And I'm also perplexed as to how a head injury could make her lose her sight.
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
And I'm also perplexed as to how a head injury could make her lose her sight.
I believe the part of the brain that deals with your sight is in the back of the brain, so it would have been pretty easy to shoot that part in this trick.... (not sure about memory tho)
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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Bad Player wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
And I'm also perplexed as to how a head injury could make her lose her sight.
I believe the part of the brain that deals with your sight is in the back of the brain, so it would have been pretty easy to shoot that part in this trick.... (not sure about memory tho)
But that would mean that she would have had to undergone major brain surgery to restore her sight. (which I suppose is possible, giving that we don't know much about what the healthcare is like in the AA universe - except the Hickfield clinic *shudders*).
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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And sure Apollo's dad died. Just like Thalassa did. And Shadi when he disappeared seven years prior to the game. Misty Fey was also generally considered dead. Diego too. The dead turning out to actually be alive is a really popular thing in these games.XD
And even if he were actually dead, I believe "Trials and Tribulations" has taught us that even death can be overcome if you're vengeful enough.>_>
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
And I'm also perplexed as to how a head injury could make her lose her sight.
I believe the part of the brain that deals with your sight is in the back of the brain, so it would have been pretty easy to shoot that part in this trick.... (not sure about memory tho)
But that would mean that she would have had to undergone major brain surgery to restore her sight. (which I suppose is possible, giving that we don't know much about what the healthcare is like in the AA universe - except the Hickfield clinic *shudders*).
For the love of god, don't even mention that place. The doctor "Hotti" (the owner) of the clinic there isn't even a licenced doctor, and that he is an effing pervert.
TheSteelSamurai wrote:
We're never told the exact nature of her wound. Though she no doubt did get shot in the head, it is possible something happened to her eyes during that, not neccesarily related to her brain. Considering a simple eye operation is mentioned, I think that is the simplest explanation.
And sure Apollo's dad died. Just like Thalassa did. And Shadi when he disappeared seven years prior to the game. Misty Fey was also generally considered dead. Diego too. The dead turning out to actually be alive is a really popular thing in these games.XD
And even if he were actually dead, I believe "Trials and Tribulations" has taught us that even death can be overcome if you're vengeful enough.>_>
And sure Apollo's dad died. Just like Thalassa did. And Shadi when he disappeared seven years prior to the game. Misty Fey was also generally considered dead. Diego too. The dead turning out to actually be alive is a really popular thing in these games.XD
And even if he were actually dead, I believe "Trials and Tribulations" has taught us that even death can be overcome if you're vengeful enough.>_>
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
And I'm also perplexed as to how a head injury could make her lose her sight.
I believe the part of the brain that deals with your sight is in the back of the brain, so it would have been pretty easy to shoot that part in this trick.... (not sure about memory tho)
But that would mean that she would have had to undergone major brain surgery to restore her sight. (which I suppose is possible, giving that we don't know much about what the healthcare is like in the AA universe - except the Hickfield clinic *shudders*).
Well, she may have lost her sight because of an internal hemorragy that damaged her eyes, or her optic nerves (because of an insufficient blood supply, for example), which could be repaired by standart surgery.
In fact, it's not the first time that we see some strange after-effects of "death". Godot managed to lose sight (and particularly the red color) as well as all the melanin in his hair, just because of a poisonned coffee cup.
(By the way, his beard is not bleached at all ... what a selective poison ! :p)
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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Basically, Thalassa gets her memory back once her sight is restored. Why, though? Judging by the extent of her memory loss, she has flat retrograde amnesia: nothing can be recovered before the accident. If she had temporally graded retrograde amnesia, she could still remember events of her past furthest away from the accident--so she still would have memories of Trucy, Apollo, Magnifi, Zak, Valant, etc, etc.
I'm going to guess that some serious repression was going on. She didn't want to know who she was, because she thought she might have been a bad person. Couple that with the blindness, and there ya go. Her being convinced to remember and face her past may have led to the memory recovery, as well.
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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And it was not just regaining her eyesight that restored her memory. I believe it was actually the trial. That was why Phoenix chose her. The Mason system not only explained the background of the case, but also what happened with Troup Gramarye and Thalassa. She no doubt noticed the resemblance between the woman and herself, then the bracelet, and after that, all the facts just added up-the head injury, the time of the accident, and so on.
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And I think Apollo's father might not have been dead and was part of what happened to Thalassa.
Though that makes Thalassa a huge jerk for abandoning Apollo when she went back to Zak
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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To have complete control over his pupils, he hid even the important knowledge of his daughter's survival (which would have ended the whole blackmailing affair). He wanted Zak and Valant to do whatever he wanted, up until the very end.
He wanted to make sure that his disciples were firmly HIS disciples; that's how I saw it.
He made sure that Thalassa was kept quiet to further his own bullshit.
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And we don't know that Magnifi even knew she was alive, and if he did, it's possible she was taken away before he could announce that or something along those lines. We really don't know what happened. The same goes for Lamiroir not being with Apollo. I don't think it's as simple as just abandoning him.
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TheSteelSamurai wrote:
Lamiroir was not blind when she was on the jury-that would have been impossible.
And we don't know that Magnifi even knew she was alive, and if he did, it's possible she was taken away before he could announce that or something along those lines. We really don't know what happened. The same goes for Lamiroir not being with Apollo. I don't think it's as simple as just abandoning him.
And we don't know that Magnifi even knew she was alive, and if he did, it's possible she was taken away before he could announce that or something along those lines. We really don't know what happened. The same goes for Lamiroir not being with Apollo. I don't think it's as simple as just abandoning him.
A) The chance is higher that she wasn't blind at that moment, yes. Because, if you remember correctly, she also had qualms about being on the jury because she thought she was "connected" to the case. Take that any way you please. Also, it was at the end of the third case that she said she was going to get surgery, right? And there's a three month separation between the third and fourth cases. Seeing that her sight was probably restored before this, her memory probably was, as well.
B) I don't want to believe Magnifi knew she was alive. He wasn't exactly the nicest guy, but I think he hung her death over the rest of the Troupe simply because she was his only child and he loved her. But I think conditions within the Troupe were bad enough that Lamiroir/Thalassa must have had a good enough reason to leave him behind--and, remember, we don't know under what conditions Apollo had to live. It could have been with family of his father's, it could have been in an orphanage. Maybe the conditions were better by the time Trucy was born.
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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Secondly, I believe that both regaining her sight and the MASON system (assuming the Jurists saw it) would've been enough to trigger her memories.
And there was DEFINITELY some memory repression in there.
Aren't theories fun?
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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I think that Apollo's father was a bad man that treated her like garbage. When they were practicing the "Zak and Valant Shootem Rally" she decided to practice it with her husband. She shoot him on purpose and the police decided to investigate the sudden dissaperance of Mr.Justice.
Magnifi left with a plan to protect her from the claws of laws, he decided to scheme her "sudden death" between practice, transport her body to a professional and loyal doctor and push Valant and Zak into thinking she was death so that suspision on the murder of Mr.Justice would go away.
After all of this happened, Kristoph Gavin deviced a plan to scheme against Phoenix Wright and Zak Gramarye.
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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TheSteelSamurai wrote:
Lamiroir just doesn't strike me as the type of person to just shoot someone, and then abandon her child, though.
Iris didn't strike me as being a conniving little bitch, but we all know how that turned out...
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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MisoSoup wrote:
Lamiror can see because she read the Jurist book thingy-ma-bob. So she must have regained her eyesight before that case. Or it was in brail... (can't spell)
Yes, it's indicated in the game she can see. She had an operation, like she said she was considering in end of 4-3.
Plus Brail has an e. (Braille, I think it's spelled. :D)
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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Bad Player wrote:
NinjaMonkey wrote:
And I'm also perplexed as to how a head injury could make her lose her sight.
I believe the part of the brain that deals with your sight is in the back of the brain, so it would have been pretty easy to shoot that part in this trick.... (not sure about memory tho)
...Wait. If that's true, then from there all we would have to do is learn which Gramarye stood behind her to know who fired the fatal shot!
Now, here's my theory on the whole deal. I think that in the real trick, the two guns would have to fire blanks and Thalassa herself somehow fires the rest of the shots. The Gramarye's aren't ACTUALLY magical, after all- they're using tricks. So wouldn't it mean that somebody loaded a real bullet into one of the guns?
Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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This leads to a number of possibilities.
- The bullet was able to penetrate her skull and cause the necessary injury despite the angle.
- Thalassa turned her head when the shots were fired, resulting in the bullet hitting her at a more direct angle.
- A third person fired from behind Thalassa.
This whole discussion is rather convenient for me, since I considered addressing it in my fan fiction.
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Zac/Valant.................Thalassa...................Valant/Zac
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General Luigi wrote:
A third person fired from behind Thalassa.
Presumably, from behind a grassy knoll...
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Re: Thoughts on Thalassa*SPOILERS*
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
General Luigi wrote:
A third person fired from behind Thalassa.
Presumably, from behind a grassy knoll...
“… This is the key shot. The Magician going back and to her left, shot from the front and right. Totally inconsistent with the shot from the Stage. Again. Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left. Back, and to the left …” (sorry, JFK reference, just had to)
Anyhow, the exact circumstances of the incident were left deliberately ambiguous by the writers to serve as a plot point for future games. That doesn’t stop us fans from speculating though. Here’s what we do know: From Valant and Zak’s perspective they were under the belief that either one of them could have fired the “fatal” shot, and that Magnifi covered up the “murder” to save the Gramarye reputation and thus used this information to coerce the two. Zak mentioned that Magnifi’s final request was not the only offer that he could not refuse.
The point of contention for most of us seems to be the extent of Magnifi’s involvement. Did he know that Thalassa survived (albeit disabled), knowingly covered up that fact, had her transplanted to Borginia and kept this information from Thalassa herself, her husband and children? Why? Was he just a cruel and manipulative bastard and saw this as an opportunity to grab power? Or maybe he was a little messed up in the head, he did after all order his students to end his life, and when they failed to do so, shot himself. There’s also the possibility that Magnifi went through all this trouble to “protect” his daughter, but that brings up the question, from whom? We don’t really know the true nature of the relationships within Troupe Gramarye. Maybe they were just that dysfunctional.
An alternative theory suggests that there may have been a third party involved. But again, we must ask who were the conspirators (possibilities range from Mr. Justice or his associates, the Yakuza and other crack theories, its called a conspiracy for a reason) and how involved Magnifi was in this supposed conspiracy. Was he also a victim and kept in the dark about the ultimate fate of his daughter or was he another player. Either way he used his knowledge to coerce and bully Valant and Zak. In the end, it all boils down to just how cold/evil/cruel/calculating/insane Magnifi really was. Excluding the “protection” theory or some other weird tragic happenstance the fact that he used his daughter’s situation as a means to a sinister end indicates that Magnifi was not a very nice man.
Also, how and why Thalassa ended up in Borginia is a major part of the mystery. As NinjAngel mentioned the actual cause of her memory/eyesight loss could be best attributed to a combination of physical and psychological damage (Repression, Psychosomatic disorder etc).
My opinion is similar to that of the OP’s, I believe that Zak and Valant were truly innocent but the incident was not a mere accident. Magnifi was definitely involved in some way.
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1. Magnifi was either a jerk, or crazy.
2. There is a possibility that Thalassa was shot by someone other than Zac or Valant.
3. There is also an equal possibility that one of them killed her by accident.
I'd like to add my own possibility.
I think that it is entirely possible that Zac and Magnifi plotted to kill her delliberatly. It has been stated that her death was in the middle of the passing of power and fame from master to apprentices.
Perhaps Magnifi wanted something to blackmail his students with, but for whatever reason, he hired Zac to kill her. He might have told him he would inherit the Gramarye tricks. Zac thinks that he can blackmail Magnifi, but Magnifi has reasoned that if Zac reveals his secrets, he will have to confess to murder.
Anyways, Zac shoots her during rehearsal, but she isn't dead. They can't kill her with Valant watching, so Magnifi fakes her death and ships her to Borgania.
Obviously, Zac only married her to make himself Magnifi's favorite. Poor Valant.
Speaking of which, in my theory, you could't sub Zac with Valant. He already said that he had no idea about what happened wen she died.
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book__wyrm wrote:
. I think that it is entirely possible that Zac and Magnifi plotted to kill her delliberatly. It has been stated that her death was in the middle of the passing of power and fame from master to apprentices.
First of all, it's Zak with a "k", not "Zac" with a "c". Secondly, I have a hard time believing that Magnifi would want to kill his only daughter, and an even harder time that Zak would want Thalassa dead, given that he has Trucy to look after.
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
First of all, it's Zak with a "k", not "Zac" with a "c". Secondly, I have a hard time believing that Magnifi would want to kill his only daughter
Again, barring any “protection” or other tragic scenario, what Magnifi did do pretty much makes him a huge scumbag. Was there intent to kill? Filicide does happen in the real world, it’s a possibility that hasn’t been ruled out so far. We just don’t know enough at this point. My bet is that the Gramarye arc will be a major point in GS5.
Quote:
and an even harder time that Zak would want Thalassa dead, given that he has Trucy to look after.
Zak didn’t really do a good job of “looking after” Trucy … I donno, something about dumping your daughter off with an anonymous defense attorney you just met the night before over a game of poker to save your own hide doesn’t seem like good parenting. Who knows what other crap he may have pulled before then.
The more I think about it, the more messed up the Gramarye family seems
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then trucy, she was like someone else said, dropped with some random lawyer. What if that's what happened to apollo? maybe that's why he's a lawyer?
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General Luigi wrote:
Zak said he didn't shoot Thalassa, and no Psyche-locks appeared. Thus, he couldn't have knowingly and willingly shot her.
Where was that? I don't remember it.
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