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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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Spoiler: 4-1
I'm pretty sure I can explain why the bottle didn't break. Contrary to popular belief, glass bottles just do not break easily at all on one's head. It is actually damn hard to break them even after multiple strikes.

In movies, they use bottles made of clear sugar and stuff, so that they break for dramatic effect. However, it's quite a different matter in real life, and glass bottles are very hard to break over a head.

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Spoiler:
Not only that, but a human skull is actually quite soft when it comes to blunt trauma. If you hit it against a table a bottle would probably break, but against someone's head...
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Spoiler: Case 4: Turnabout Succession
This contradiction is in Phoenix Wright's last trial, and can be seen almost anywhere in the courtroom scenes.

"Magical Cause of Death"
When scrolling over the "Magnifi Autopsy Report", It will state that the cause of death was "Single gunshot to the head", which is also how the case commonly states as the cause of death. However, if one is to "Check" the Report in detail, it will read that the cause of death is a "Loss of blood from bullet wound". Clearly impossible, since the bullet was found in Magnifi's skull (meaning the blood could not pool into the pillow behind his head, since it didn't go through his head), and there was no blood pooled anywhere in the crime scene photo.

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title

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Yet another one from THAT case

Spoiler: 4-3
I can't see how it's even possible for Machi to drag or pick up Letouse's body. Even if he's stronger than a normal 14 year old, I can't see him pick up the over 6 Ft. and over 300 pound Letouse normally, and having a DISLOCATED SHOULDER certainly wouldn't help matters. (Yeah, I know he didn't fire the gun, this is according to Klavier's Theory.) Even putting it in a case would still mean having having to drag it with said dislocated shoulder, and he only had a certain amount of time to do so without running into someone.
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rydus65 wrote:
Yet another one from THAT case

Spoiler: 4-3
I can't see how it's even possible for Machi to drag or pick up Letouse's body. Even if he's stronger than a normal 14 year old, I can't see him pick up the over 6 Ft. and over 300 pound Letouse normally, and having a DISLOCATED SHOULDER certainly wouldn't help matters. (Yeah, I know he didn't fire the gun, this is according to Klavier's Theory.) Even putting it in a case would still mean having having to drag it with said dislocated shoulder, and he only had a certain amount of time to do so without running into someone.


Yeah, they even think he somehow took the huge body UP A LADDER. There's a fine line between the police being incompetent and just flatout braindead, and this case crossed that line massively.

Anyhoot, here's a truckload of questions I have about 4-4 that always bothered me. Wither they be contradictions and/or plot holes.

Why was the time of death for Magnifi so vague? Shouldn't he be hooked up to a heart rate monitor considering his condition?

Where were all the nurses and doctors when these gunshots were going off? And don't tell me there was a silencer used, Valant wouldn't had gone back into Magnifi's room if he didn't hear the gunshot.

Heck, how did Magnifi even get loaded guns into a hospital in the first place??

Why did it take a whole week for Zak's trial to begin, when every other trial started the day (or at the most two days) after the murder? I thought that was the point of the "speedy trial system"?

When exactly was Kristoph hired by Zak? It couldn't be the day before the trial, or else Kristoph couldn't had gotten access to the crime scene and the diary in time to make the forgery. And if he had been hired a week prior to the case, why did Zak wait until the last minute to play poker with him?

What was with Phoenix's bizarre arrogance in the trial? He of all people shouldn't had said some crap like "I guess there's no substitute for experience", especially after the cases he's won in the past against more experienced attorneys.

No one seriously questioned how Klavier not only knew about the fake dairy page, but even had a witness to prove it?

Why couldn't Phoenix present the dairy itself and show there was a page ripped out? Yes it wasn't decisive evidence or anything, but it would had lead to enough inconclusive facts that they needed to extend the trial.

Where was Trucy between the flashback trial and Phoenix calling her to come to his office? Was she with the police? Would they really let her come unsupervised to the office of a man who was suspected of dirty tricks in the trial?

How did Phoenix adopt Trucy? He was a jobless man who had such a bad reputation thanks to the evidence scandal that he couldn't get a decent job, and had to settle for the piano/poker gig. That doesn't look good for a person trying to adopt a kid, especially since it wasn't good enough to make ends meet, as Trucy had to work as a magician to get revenue as well.

Someone apparently tried to kidnap Vera as a child.... okay? ... ... We're not going to find out anything about that? ... ...

Where do the police think Vera could had gotten poison to kill Drew? She's an anti-social shut-in. Do they think she bought it on the internet or something?! And what motive would a girl have to kill her father, who was her only social contact for so many years?!

Why didn't the police find the poison on Vera's fingernails when they searched her for the poison that killed Drew?

Zak had the real page on him the entire time. Why did he not tell Phoenix about this? Especially when he SAW the fake page in Phoenix's hand. It even looked just like the diary page Zak was carrying on him at that moment. And why did the police not see it when they searched Zak after arresting him or during his time in the detention center?!

Why was Zak so obsessed with destroying Phoenix's poker record? It was the only thing that gave Phoenix the revenue to support the daughter that Zak dumped on him! Does he want Trucy to be fatherless?!

Drew used Vera's stamp to mail the letter... why? Did he really not have any stamps? Sue he may had been desperate, what with Brushel poking around, but couldn't he had just bought more stamps, or hid the letter until he could get more, rather then using a stamp that Vera held so near and dear to her?

Why did Phoenix not ask the guard in the prison center to confiscate the letter in Kristoph's prison, or even just have Apollo come over to take it? It was heavily related to the trial, Phoenix even said to himself it was decisive evidence.

I know this one's been asked a lot, but it bears repeating. How in god's green earth did a disbarred man who was found guilty of forging evidence be allowed to become the chairman of a new law system, especially one that he was so heavily involved in the back-history of? He was even allowed to use a video recording of his investigations that was made into the MASON system. How the heck was all this approved?

This is probably one of the biggest head-scratchers though, why did Zak did a defense attorney in the first place? He was planning to flee the courtroom no matter what verdict was handed down, so what was the point of hiring an attorney?
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Last edited by DynoStretch on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Someone apparently tried to kidnap Vera as a child.... okay? ... ... We're not going to find out anything about that? ... ...

I've seen people complain about this before, but I don't think it's necessary to know more. That kidnapping attempt is not hard to believe and it's not relevant to the rest of the story aside from Vera's behavior, so I don't really see what else they could have said.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
This is probably one of the biggest head-scratchers though, why did Zak did a defense attorney in the first place? He was planning to flee the courtroom no matter what verdict was handed down, so what was the point of hiring an attorney?

Are you sure? Admittedly it's been a while since I played the game, but I don't think Zak would have disappeared if he had been found not guilty. I mean, that would have been a stupid thing to do. I assumed he was hoping for a not guilty verdict so that he wouldn't have to abandon his daughter.
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Jozerick wrote:
Are you sure? Admittedly it's been a while since I played the game, but I don't think Zak would have disappeared if he had been found not guilty. I mean, that would have been a stupid thing to do. I assumed he was hoping for a not guilty verdict so that he wouldn't have to abandon his daughter.


Phoenix: I'll do what I can.
Enigmar: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I see you do not understand. You see, it will be impossible for them to declare a verdict.
Phoenix: I-Impossible?
Enigmar: Yes. Isn't that right, Trucy?
Trucy: Yup! You bet, Daddy.

If he had gotten a Not Guilty, he would had fled to protect Valant from being labeled the killer. Noble, but indeed stupid, and it begs the question of why he needed an attorney in the first place, the court would had provided him with a state attorney anyway.
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Well, in that case, maybe having Trucy adopted by his lawyer was part of his plan so he wanted his lawyer to be a very good person? ...Or that's just another plothole.
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:
I know this one's been asked a lot, but it bears repeating. How in god's green earth did a disbarred man who was found guilty of forging evidence be allowed to become the chairman of a new law system, especially one that he was so heavily involved in the back-history of? He was even allowed to use a video recording of his investigations that was made into the MASON system. How the heck was all this approved?


Because it's Ace Attorney and that makes perfect sense there.

I have to admit it's quite far fetched. VERY far fetched.
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GnommishReader wrote:
DarkWobbuffet wrote:
I know this one's been asked a lot, but it bears repeating. How in god's green earth did a disbarred man who was found guilty of forging evidence be allowed to become the chairman of a new law system, especially one that he was so heavily involved in the back-history of? He was even allowed to use a video recording of his investigations that was made into the MASON system. How the heck was all this approved?


Because it's Ace Attorney and that makes perfect sense there.

I have to admit it's quite far fetched. VERY far fetched.

I always just assumed that Edgeworth eventually became the chief prosecutor and helped Phoenix out. It makes a lot of sense that Edgeworth would want such a drastic change when you consider that Edgeworth was traveling the world to study court systems. (And after GK1-5, he probably understands that even evidence has a limit in the law.)
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Hero of Defense wrote:
GnommishReader wrote:
DarkWobbuffet wrote:
I know this one's been asked a lot, but it bears repeating. How in god's green earth did a disbarred man who was found guilty of forging evidence be allowed to become the chairman of a new law system, especially one that he was so heavily involved in the back-history of? He was even allowed to use a video recording of his investigations that was made into the MASON system. How the heck was all this approved?


Because it's Ace Attorney and that makes perfect sense there.

I have to admit it's quite far fetched. VERY far fetched.

I always just assumed that Edgeworth eventually became the chief prosecutor and helped Phoenix out. It makes a lot of sense that Edgeworth would want such a drastic change when you consider that Edgeworth was traveling the world to study court systems. (And after GK1-5, he probably understands that even evidence has a limit in the law.)


That does make some sense. If Edgeworth as the new chief prosecutor was pulling some strings to get him set up as the head of the new system, most people wouldn't question him or his motive. Which just makes me that more eager for GS5. With Edgeworth as the main prosecutor. (Or anyone else for that matter I just want GS5.)
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DarkWobbuffet wrote:

Yeah, they even think he somehow took the huge body UP A LADDER. There's a fine line between the police being incompetent and just flatout braindead, and this case crossed that line massively.


I don't think the ladder was used at all. Remember the stage can be raised and lower at will, and the stage wasn't raised when Apollo spoke to Klavier. All "the killer" would have to do is put Letouse's body on the stage (along with Machi and perhaps Geeter) before raising the stage.

Although that brings up this point.
-why no one heard the stage rising? (assuming the stage makes a loud noise when raised and assuming there was no music still playing)

Quote:

Someone apparently tried to kidnap Vera as a child.... okay? ... ... We're not going to find out anything about that? ... ...



I was always wondering about this as well. Maybe it will come up in AA5
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rydus65 wrote:
Quote:

Someone apparently tried to kidnap Vera as a child.... okay? ... ... We're not going to find out anything about that? ... ...



I was always wondering about this as well. Maybe it will come up in AA5


It was probably just part of her backstory, used as an excuse to have her not go out and be so asocial.

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Even though Vera told us that Drew Misham was very happy when the Wright Talent Agency start again defending activities and he began studying every Apollo's case, I'm not convinced by this explanation to justify the draw underneath Vera's painting forgeries... I hope a clear answer in AA5... I'm naive I know.

Anyway, I don't know if anyone bring up that, sorry, it's a very litte detail but when Valant said to phoenix he had just wiped out Magnifi's fingerprints, forensics can easily know that don't they ? After all, in 4-2 (I don't remember but it's that case i'm pretty sure), alita tiala has wiped her fingerprints, and the study of the gun pointed out that someone had wiped its fingerprints... but in the case of Magnifi suicide, the gun is clearly stated like "fingerprints-proof" (like "water-proof", i don't know how to say that). Furthermore, even though Shadi's and Valant's gunshot, no one noticed the noise ? Meh...

Very little detail admit, but bothered me, i'm maniac I guess.
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I think if you hurriedly just wipe over something, a smudge-like trace of a fingerprint may remain and that proves that it was wiped. I suppose Valant simply took his time to wipe the gun, he even fudged with the contents of the IV bag, so he probably made to sure take his time with the entire thing.

As to why nobody noticed the shot... where was Magnifi, in the ICU? Because that is not a very quiet place, there are all kinds of machines binging and beeping, alarms going off and stuff like that. Maybe a gun blended in... somehow.

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Your explanation makes sense, thank you. :)
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I don't know if anyone brought this up, but...

4-2: Why wasn't Wocky arrested for attempted murder? I mean, he had a gun and was facing Mal (With the intent to kill.)

4-3: The fact that Machi is the defendant.
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BonnyMono wrote:
4-2: Why wasn't Wocky arrested for attempted murder? I mean, he had a gun and was facing Mal (With the intent to kill.)


Waving a gun in front of someone with the intent to kill but not actually doing anything and waving a gun in front of someone with the intent to kill and shooting are two different things. Intent is not enough to convict someone with, they actually have to do some bodily harm to other people.
Like the old laws about stalking someone.
As long as all he did was stalking you, terrorizing you into mental insanity and getting you physically ill due to said mental stress, the police could do nothing about it. He had to do something, be it break into your apartment or actively try to harm you, before they could arrest him. And in such a case, they wouldn't arrest him for stalking, but for the B&E or the harm.

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http://youtu.be/Xz7HLol7AOg?t=7m1s

So Apollo just proved that Phoenix couldn't have forged the diary page using "the records on that case" to show that Phoenix had no time to forge the evidence. So tell me, if those records exist, and a rookie defense attorney was able to access them, then why the hell didn't ANYONE ELSE check those records over the past seven and a half years? The bar association review board, who unanimously voted for the "strictest punishment," Klavier Gavin, the so-called seeker of truth, any of Phoenix's friends, ANY of them could have proven that Phoenix couldn't have done it. But noooooo, everyone just remains so ******* oblivious to this, and assumes Phoenix was a forger.
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I'm under the impression that the "records" Apollo mentions are just something like Phoenix's written memories. After all Kristoph says just after that attorneys are registered the day before the trial, and I don't think there are any official records of little Trucy giving the page to Phoenix.
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Jozerick wrote:
I'm under the impression that the "records" Apollo mentions are just something like Phoenix's written memories. After all Kristoph says just after that attorneys are registered the day before the trial, and I don't think there are any official records of little Trucy giving the page to Phoenix.


That actually can be explained. From Case 1-5, evidence law plays an important role, and there are two rules.

Rule 1: No evidence shall not be known without the approval of the Police Department.

Rule 2: Unregistered Evidence presented must be relevant to the case in the trial.

I believe the page would fall under Rule 2, at least according to Phoenix.
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shippersdreamer wrote:
Jozerick wrote:
I'm under the impression that the "records" Apollo mentions are just something like Phoenix's written memories. After all Kristoph says just after that attorneys are registered the day before the trial, and I don't think there are any official records of little Trucy giving the page to Phoenix.


That actually can be explained. From Case 1-5, evidence law plays an important role, and there are two rules.

Rule 1: No evidence shall not be known without the approval of the Police Department.

Rule 2: Unregistered Evidence presented must be relevant to the case in the trial.

I believe the page would fall under Rule 2, at least according to Phoenix.


You know, Evidence Law was a terrible idea to bring into the AA verse, especially in 1-5, where the dumbest dumbhole refuses to follow his own word.

Spoiler: 1-5 Early Spoiler
Gant, who - for one - is CHIEF OF POLICE could give us the report about Goodman's murder in the evidence room at any moment because of reason one. Having Phoenix need to prove the connection due to reason two is dumb because THE FREAKING NAME OF THE MURDER VICTIM IS BRUCE GOODMAN. How much more do you have to prove a connection between BRUCE GOODMAN'S MURDER IN A GARAGE to the MURDER OF BRUCE GOODMAN IN THE EVIDENCE ROOM?


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What about the fact they changed what the black psyke locks mean from AA4 and AA5.
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Not unless you apply the head canon that Kristoph has an inferiority complex towards Klavier
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Kevin Ace Attorney wrote:
What about the fact they changed what the black psyke locks mean from AA4 and AA5.

This is both true and untrue.

When it comes to the black Psyche-Locks, Pearl explains it pretty good in AA5. A black Psyche-Lock represents a secret that an individual keeps subconsciously, without being aware of it. In both instances, both Kristoph and Athena were faced with pressure (for Kristoph, the paranoia of keeping the secrets, and for Athena, the stress of not knowing if she killed her mom or not) and they both freaked out and would not talk about it. Kristoph knew that he was keeping the secret, but even he would never admit to anything - simply because of the black Psyche-Locks he had. He even said that everything that Apollo said about his crimes was nothing more than "an entertaining piece of fiction". I've always thought of Kristoph being a special exception, just because he was insane. Athena, on the other hand, went with the rules of the Magatama and did not know the truth at all until Phoenix helped jog her memory.

If you're still confused, just think that Kristoph was mentally insane and Athena wasn't.

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After just completing Turnabout Serenade, I have a new appreciation for the case (it's still weak, of course). But still, it is stated numerous times that firing the revolver will dislocate your shoulder, for an untrained shooter. The weapon was fired twice and there is nothing wrong with Machi; he did not do it. It is highly implied that the real killer injured their shoulder firing the weapon, and they have firearms training (they never admit to the injury).

I've never dislocated my shoulder, but I think it would be hard to hard to play a guitar faultless except for the one time Klavier notices the missed cue.
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MBr wrote:
After just completing Turnabout Serenade, I have a new appreciation for the case (it's still weak, of course). But still, it is stated numerous times that firing the revolver will dislocate your shoulder, for an untrained shooter. The weapon was fired twice and there is nothing wrong with Machi; he did not do it. It is highly implied that the real killer injured their shoulder firing the weapon, and they have firearms training (they never admit to the injury).

I've never dislocated my shoulder, but I think it would be hard to hard to play a guitar faultless except for the one time Klavier notices the missed cue.


Given that the killer did have firearms training and is likely used to heavy pistols and revolvers, they'll also be used to the backfiring sensation and hence wouldn't dislocate their shoulder through some shots. He might have some shoulder pain - but with their training, they'd also be used to that and toughened up.

So of course 4-3 is terrible in terms of the whole reason to even suspect Machi, but the fact that the murderer doesn't have a completely dislocated shoulder is not really a contradiction.

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Phoenix gives Apollo and Trucy the Gramarye envelope in 4-4, but they can't use Ema's machine to discover its contents like they could for Misham's envelope. I know that the former's contents are to be revealed later but what stops Apollo from figuring them out now?
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MBr wrote:
Phoenix gives Apollo and Trucy the Gramarye envelope in 4-4, but they can't use Ema's machine to discover its contents like they could for Misham's envelope. I know that the former's contents are to be revealed later but what stops Apollo from figuring them out now?

Well, Phoenix tells them not to open it yet, which implies the contents are to remain secret for now. Using a machine to read the contents would be as disrespectful as opening it.
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Jozerick wrote:
MBr wrote:
Phoenix gives Apollo and Trucy the Gramarye envelope in 4-4, but they can't use Ema's machine to discover its contents like they could for Misham's envelope. I know that the former's contents are to be revealed later but what stops Apollo from figuring them out now?

Well, Phoenix tells them not to open it yet, which implies the contents are to remain secret for now. Using a machine to read the contents would be as disrespectful as opening it.

Plenty of times in the series has a character disobeyed orders like that. Apollo leaves the scene of the murder in 4-3 even though Ema instructs him to stay. Gumshoe orders Phoenix not to go to Acro's room in 2-3, but he immediately goes there regardless. I know we're not supposed to know the contents of the letter because the plot says so, but we just finished going through Misham's mail and I happen to have the other letter on me. Perhaps Phoenix could give the letter to Trucy and Apollo before the trial started so they would avoid this plot hole, but we do have to show it to Valant, only increasing our curiosity.
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Those are situations where order was disobeyed to solve a murder. This is one where Trucy is just listening to her Dad
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It just irks me is all

Edit:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Those are situations where order was disobeyed to solve a murder.

True. Prof. Means would be proud.

I recall Ema told Apollo that he couldn't analyze Misham's paintings unless he proves there is some kind of connection. Considering there is no connection between the Misham murder and the Gramarye envelope at this time, it makes sense that it wouldn't be analyzed.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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MBr wrote:
I recall Ema told Apollo that he couldn't analyze Misham's paintings unless he proves there is some kind of connection. Considering there is no connection between the Misham murder and the Gramarye envelope at this time, it makes sense that it wouldn't be analyzed.


Who the hell did Ema think she was, huh? Fucking GANT with his must be connected to something else crap? Just screams like one more "plot contrived leash" put onto the player.

C-A
Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
MBr wrote:
I recall Ema told Apollo that he couldn't analyze Misham's paintings unless he proves there is some kind of connection. Considering there is no connection between the Misham murder and the Gramarye envelope at this time, it makes sense that it wouldn't be analyzed.


Who the hell did Ema think she was, huh? Fucking GANT with his must be connected to something else crap? Just screams like one more "plot contrived leash" put onto the player.

C-A

Clearly, the political stability of the Middle East is important if we ever want to understand the truth about what happened to the pen that was on your desk last night.
"It's never too late to learn that growing old doesn't have to mean growing up. Stay curious, stay weird, stay kind, and don't let anyone ever tell you you aren't smart or brave or worthy enough." -Stanford Pines, Gravity Falls
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