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GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title

Larry Bugs Me!

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Even in the first playthrough, I have already found some contradictions.

Spoiler:
In case 1:
If the grape juice bottle is the murder weapon, why wouldn't it brake after the hit?
OK, the bottle found in the crime scene is a fake one, so? The defense should be able to use this to get Phoenix out of trouble.


Spoiler:
In case 2:
Minami shot the victim from the cart right? But if you look at the opening, you can see the spark is to the left of the victim.


Spoiler:
In case 4
In the last trial, you used the "minuku system" on Kirihito, and a devil's face on a hand is something I won't call "nervous".


Spoiler:
In case 4:
Kirihito is guilty of murder in case 1 right? Whether he is guilty in Case 4 or not. He is going to die, so why does he freak out at last?


Spoiler:
In... whatever
Odoroki and Minuki can "minuku" a person because they have the ring and the magician blood.
But It was mentioned by Minuki that Phoenix can do it to win poker too. But he doesn't have the ring or the magician DNA......


So if you can find more contradictions, or have an explanation, or have something to correct me,
please reply! Edgy
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F.O.E.

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You... sort of forgot the most obvious one?

Spoiler:
Phoenix presents evidence he wouldn't know about for 7 sevens in the past, twice.
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HHLsp wrote:
Spoiler:
In... whatever
Odoroki and Minuki can "minuku" a person because they have the ring and the magician blood.
But It was mentioned by Minuki that Phoenix can do it to win poker too. But he doesn't have the ring or the magician DNA......



Spoiler:
The way I read it is that she sits next to him everytime there's an important match so that she can use her ability to help him win, not him using the ability himself.
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"What is this...?"

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HHLsp wrote:
Spoiler:
In case 4:
Kirihito is guilty of murder in case 1 right? Whether he is guilty in Case 4 or not. He is going to die, so why does he freak out at last?


Spoiler:
Strange- I thought that he just got a life sentence in prison (somehow). Else Phoenix wouldn't have had the chance to interact with him after case 4-1 (as shown in the Mason system).

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Spoiler: "case 1"
The bottle didn't break because...it's tough? I dunno, maybe Kirihito has a girly swing. He didn't want to break a nail XD


Spoiler: "case 2"
The opening sequences are always meant to mislead you.


Spoiler: "case 4"
The skull face formed because his hand was tensing up nervously, and the constriction around his scar made it look like a skull.


Spoiler: "case 4 ending"
It wasn't just that Kirihito was flipping out over being convicted. It was the fact that Phoenix had finally, honestly beaten him. These are two men that have been gauging each other for the past seven years. Phoenix destroyed the one thing Kirihito thought was absolute in order to win. I think that warrents a flipping out.


Spoiler: "case 4 and 1"
He had Minuki beside him when he needed to win a big game. Otherwise I think he could have half depended on the magatama as well (since he was able to beat Zakku 7 years ago)


Spoiler: "The Mason System"
The Mason System existed as a means of showing the Jury "the truth." The back and forth in time, I thought, was just to make it more interesting. History didn't necessarily have to have happened that way. Which...would pretty much makes Phoenix a dirty liar, but they never did attempt to excuse him from the bloody ace in the first case.


The ones that still have me stumped are:

Spoiler: "Case 3"
Why did Daian/Maki set up the incendiary device in Kyouya's guitar, but NOT take the cocoon at that point? How did they have time to do one and not the other? And why did Maki need the money anyway? Though that's more of a hole instead of a contradiction, I guess...


Spoiler: "Case 4"
How was Doburoku able to keep contact with Kirihito even when the later was in prison, if he didn't know who Makoto's client was? Unless he knew all along and just lied to everyone, because he knew that Makoto was still under Kirihito's "magic".


Oh, and one more general question, because I was too lazy to take a note of it:

Spoiler: "case 4"
Tensai had diabetes, but he was hospitalized for a tumor, wasn't he?

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Spoiler: Mason system
Even if it all was made up by Phoenix to sway the jury, it still doesn't make sense that he would include such an obvious contradiction, as he would actually want the jury to buy his story (it would also leave open the question what actually happened, and just increase the feeling that you once again didn't win the case, but the defendant was freed due to a rigged trial). it also doesn't seem very plausible that Phoenix could show the jury his made-up version of the past, thus changing the outcome of the trial, without anyone caring.


Spoiler: Tensai
Yes, he was being treated for cancer (was it lung cancer? I can't check the profile from my save) and would have died in a few months anyways.
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Croik wrote:
Spoiler: "Case 3"
Why did Daian/Maki set up the incendiary device in Kyouya's guitar, but NOT take the cocoon at that point? How did they have time to do one and not the other? And why did Maki need the money anyway? Though that's more of a hole instead of a contradiction, I guess...



Spoiler: 4-3
I assumed it was put in at the same time as the cocoon, while the guitar was being prepared in Moonspeak Land, just in case they had to get rid of the evidence in a hurry and didn't have time to retrieve the cocoon? I have to admit I was playing the last part of that trial through MY TEARS OF BLOOD over seeing that damn concert clip over and over again, so maybe I missed something, but that's what I came away with.

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Croik wrote:
Spoiler: "case 1"
The bottle didn't break because...it's tough? I dunno, maybe Kirihito has a girly swing. He didn't want to break a nail XD



Spoiler:
You know, that bottle would be an awesome product.
" Must have for any brawler! Keep bashing people in the head, and it just won't break! You can even keep your favourite refreshments and ennjoy a drink during your break! Sponsored by Phoenix Wright Co: Hobos at PokerRoom. Tested and approved by proffesionals. Be sure that it haves the Super Sayan Attorney Seal, as copies are everywhere"
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She knows she's hot...

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HHLsp wrote:
Even in the first playthrough, I have already found some contradictions.

Spoiler:
In case 1:
If the grape juice bottle is the murder weapon, why wouldn't it brake after the hit?
OK, the bottle found in the crime scene is a fake one, so? The defense should be able to use this to get Phoenix out of trouble.



Spoiler:
I think it's possible that if the bottom of the bottle was especially thicker than the rest of the bottle, and Kagerou was hit right with the edge of the bottle, it could have enough blunt force to kill him, without necessarily breaking the bottle.


Ryu-kun wrote:
Spoiler: Mason System
Even if it all was made up by Phoenix to sway the jury, it still doesn't make sense that he would include such an obvious contradiction, as he would actually want the jury to buy his story (it would also leave open the question what actually happened, and just increase the feeling that you once again didn't win the case, but the defendant was freed due to a rigged trial). it also doesn't seem very plausible that Phoenix could show the jury his made-up version of the past, thus changing the outcome of the trial, without anyone caring.



Spoiler:
I'm not quite sure how it comes off in game, since I haven't gotten to play it yet. But my take on the matter? Phoenix doesn't actually 'get' the evidence he shows in the past in the future. He already had them, but the footage was purposely disjointed in order to show the RELEVANCE of such evidence to the jury, before showing just how it was presented. The nail polish could be noted, in order to show the connection between Kirihito and the poisoned nail polish given to Makoto so that the jury understands its significance when they get to that part of the compiled footage. And it's very possible that Phoenix may have already had a copy of the picture that Hamigaki gave him. Again, disjointed so the audience actually understands just how it fits into the overall spectrum.

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My personal opinion is that you have to suspend your belief for all the PW games for some of the events to happen as the game tells you they did.
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OH GOD the concert footage. OVER AND OVER. Damn you, my beloved Guitar serenade pleasure burning heart wtfever.

Spoiler: "Case 3"
If it's true that Maki planted the device to begin with, it seems...awfully convenient that Daian had one exactly like it. Did Maki bring an extra? I'd love to see that go through customs XD


Spoiler: "Mason"
I think it makes a little more sense when you think about which items cross the boundaries - the photo, and the nail polish. The nail polish is something he would have seen at Makoto's house, but not understood the significance of until seven years later. It makes more sense to a stranger to make the connection instant.

Besides, most of the footage had to have been faked anyway, since not even a beenie cam can photograph psycho locks.

As for Phoenix not getting caught...he did set it up. If he's in charge, who would stop him? Nevermind the fact that him being in charge in the first place is somewhat suspect, unless the big wigs above him had already been convinced Phoenix was right. And as for Phoenix's ethics...he already proved in case 1 that he's willing to cheat in order to get Kirihito.

And...I think it was liver cancer...? Though I'm not sure I've ever heard of that...

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Spoiler:
I still don't see anyone with a sane mind setting up their forged story like that if they wanted people to believe it, especially the psycho lock parts. Apart from that I also can't see the Phoenix I played in GS1 through 3 sinking down to such a low level of deceit out of petty revenge (what's to be won anyway? Garyuu is already awaiting execution)

We also don't know what really happened in the past and present, then.

And the video footage was only slightly more painful than the endless repetition of the ZOMG! 3D!! reenactment of the case 2 crime.
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Ryu-kun wrote:
Spoiler:
I still don't see anyone with a sane mind setting up their forged story like that if they wanted people to believe it, especially the psycho lock parts. Apart from that I also can't see the Phoenix I played in GS1 through 3 sinking down to such a low level of deceit out of petty revenge (what's to be won anyway? Garyuu is already awaiting execution)

We also don't know what really happened in the past and present, then.

And the video footage was only slightly more painful than the endless repetition of the ZOMG! 3D!! reenactment of the case 2 crime.


Spoiler:
I thought Hobohodo got his liscence restored at the end of 4-4?
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Spoiler: "end of 4-4"
They don't say that Phoenix got his badge back, but they did kind of prove he shouldn't have lost it in the first place. I think in the credits he jokes about taking the bar exam over again. Oh man, if he showed up in GS5 cleaned up and back in a suit I think I'd melt.


Spoiler: "Mason"
It wasn't just revenge, though, it was relieving himself of guilt for something he didn't do. And more importantly, it saved Makoto's life. Phoenix couldn't have proved that Kirihito tried to kill her and her father without establishing a motive, and he couldn't establish a motive without proving Kirihito had hired Makoto in the first place. He had to solve one case to solve the other.

As for the system itself...a straight flashback would probably have made more sense. But considering some of the other ridiculous stuff they do in the series, I'm willing to chalk it up to pure gimmick.

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Spoiler: The Mason System and Psycho Locks
Whoever said the jury needed to see the locks? Phoenix never explicitly says 'this person has Psycho Locks', or 'I'm going to break your Psycho Locks' out loud (except to Adrian in 2-4), so the jury could simply take it as the person clammed up and Phoenix just asked the right questions later.

Hey! My current life situation is [low-level internal screaming], so I may be slow to respond to things. Thanks for understanding!

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BassForever wrote:
Spoiler:
I thought Hobohodo got his liscence restored at the end of 4-4?


Spoiler:
No. He says that he might take the exam again during the credits, then laughs, making it seem to be a joke rather than a real plan.
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nuuuuu, stoooooop

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WAIT here's another (important) one:

Spoiler:
Did Doburoku know all along that Kirihito was Makoto's client? The letter he wrote to him in prison would imply that he did. He had a good reason to lie about knowing him, if he thought that Kirihito had given Makoto something dangerous. But now I can't remember at what point they indicated if Doburoku really was keeping up with Kirihito directly. Since the letter itself was never presented in court, it was never really explained...

Gotta clear that up before I post my description Yanni Yogi

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Croik wrote:
WAIT here's another (important) one:

Spoiler:
Did Doburoku know all along that Kirihito was Makoto's client? The letter he wrote to him in prison would imply that he did. He had a good reason to lie about knowing him, if he thought that Kirihito had given Makoto something dangerous. But now I can't remember at what point they indicated if Doburoku really was keeping up with Kirihito directly. Since the letter itself was never presented in court, it was never really explained...

Gotta clear that up before I post my description Yanni Yogi



Spoiler:
Remember. Doburoku was the one who was called to proved that the evidence was forged in the first place. I would guess that he would know SOMETHING about who the Client was by then.
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Alright thanks for clearing that up for me :D
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Spoiler: "case 4"
But half the point was that Doburoku didn't know--only Makoto did. At least...Doburoku testified that he didn't know, and told Phoenix later that he didn't, either. What I wanted to know is was he lying, or did he learn sometime after Phoenix left (in the nebulous 7 years).

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Started up 4-3 again today , which reminded me of something of the end of 4-4.

Spoiler: Case 4 - Ending
If Yuumi was blind, how could she see when you played her when she was in the mock-jury (with the Mason system) and vote? You actually played her, as seen by the bracelets on her arm when voting, so....

>Edit: oh, wait. Just finished 4-3 again. They did mention something about eye surgery at the end?

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Croik wrote:
Spoiler: "case 4"
But half the point was that Doburoku didn't know--only Makoto did. At least...Doburoku testified that he didn't know, and told Phoenix later that he didn't, either. What I wanted to know is was he lying, or did he learn sometime after Phoenix left (in the nebulous 7 years).



Spoiler:
Maybe Doburoku didn't know who he was, but he did know where to send the letter - Makoto had to send the finished work to Kirihito via mail, so Doburoku could have known the sender's address because of that.

As for how did Kirihito ended up with the letter, maybe it ended up in his house and Kyouya delivered it to prison or some other method irrelevant to the main plot.

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What about continuity errors? I know a lot of people were worried that with GS4 taking place in the same timeline as PW, there would be problems with things being retconned or contradicted that way. So far I've only noticed one, and one purely curious thing.

The Arumajiki are supposedly the premiere magicians in Japan, and Tensai began his career twenty years ago. But the whole point of 2-3 was that Max's corner on the market for magicians is what boosted him to such fame and put the Tachimi Circus on the map. He even won awards for it. But GS2 of course doesn't ever mention that Max should have had competition.

Which is kind of funny, considering every magazine reporting on GS4 noted the magician connection to Max, but the game itself didn't.

And some food for thought:

Spoiler: "Case 4-4"
At the beginning of case 4 Phoenix mentions that the jury system is still how things are done in America, which would imply that Kyouya, having studied there, was already familiar with it. But doesn't that also mean that Franziska, who was in practice in America since she was 13, was also used to it?

Do you suppose she's ever whipped the jury? I can't imagine they'd be inclined to vote guilty, if she did. :ka-whip:

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Croik wrote:
And some food for thought:

Spoiler: "Case 4-4"
At the beginning of case 4 Phoenix mentions that the jury system is still how things are done in America, which would imply that Kyouya, having studied there, was already familiar with it. But doesn't that also mean that Franziska, who was in practice in America since she was 13, was also used to it?

Do you suppose she's ever whipped the jury? I can't imagine they'd be inclined to vote guilty, if she did. :ka-whip:

Spoiler:
She probably whipped the jury into submission, though 12 people is harder to deal with than just 1, I suppose. Then again, in America, she also should have been locked up at least a couple of times for contempt of court for whipping people like that. Not much of a perfect record if you get arrested while prosecuting.

Oh, one more thing- how many people are in a Japanese jury as opposed to an American jury? I think there are 12 people in a US jury, but it seems that there are fewer people in a Japanese jury. Is this correct?
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In an American jury 14 people for capital trials and 7 for lesser ones, however only 12/6 people go into the back room and one is dismissed. This is incase one of the jury members gets sick, bites the bullet, or what not.
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Spoiler:
Japan doesn't use a jury system yet, but in the game it's 6 people. 12 is the typical number for an American jury.

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I thought Japan actually was changing to a jury system? (in real life, not in the game)
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They are, but I don't think it's happened yet...?
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HHLsp wrote:
Spoiler:
In case 1:
If the grape juice bottle is the murder weapon, why wouldn't it brake after the hit?



Because said brakes were tampered with. *shot*
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Well, as far as I've found, there's already a government site going into the new (to them) jury system in detail- http://www.moj.go.jp/SAIBANIN/ so I assumed that it was already up and running for them (and that they just decided to reference it in the game too).
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I'm bumping this topic because there are sure to be more contradictions that pop up once more people have played the game (and I don't want them ending up in the Defense Lobby).

Got any cough-ups to share?
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Maybe I'm thinking too hard on this one, but it has me stumped.

Spoiler: 4-1
Kristoph nailed Shadi over the head with a grape juice bottle. My question is: How? How did Kristoph get the grape juice bottle in the first place? I'm assuming it was the one that was lying on the table next to Shadi. If that's the case, Kristoph would have had to reach for the bottle before delivering the killing blow, giving Shadi enough time to subdue Kristoph. So, either Shadi fails at reaction time or I'm not getting something here.

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Last edited by Mr. Bear Jew on Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I didn't exactly want to go past all the unlabeled spoilers to prevent myself from spoiling the whole game even more (I'm in the beginning of 4-3) seeing that I've already asked numerous plot explanations in the "just one thing" thread, so this may have been mentioned:

Spoiler: 4-2
Seeing that Meraktis was a surgeon, how come he never checked Alita if she was alive (pulse, breathing)?

Insert fangirl-ish signature here full of Photoshop glamour.
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Heh, heres a good one.

Spoiler: Case 4-1
Okay, so in AA1 case 5, we learn how to spin things arround. That's nice, especially when we find out that you physically spin it arround, namely in the blue badger example. Okay, so how on EARTH can Apollo examine the COFFEE CUP from the bottom without THE CONTAINS SPILLING OUT ENTIRELY?! WTF!

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It's pretty simple. They drained the cup before examining it. That, or Polly just looks underneath it while keeping it in the same spot!
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This is just a thought about
Spoiler: 4-1 & 4-4
Kristophs potential execution after 4-1

Mabye the law had changed after 7 years? Mabye one murder no longer carries the death penalty? So theoretically
Spoiler: ...
Kristoph
might have just got life in prison for the murder in 4-1?

out of curiosity, being English, what motive does Apollo provide for you-know-who in 4-1?

I remain by my idea (unless proven wrong by the game) that you-know-who might have just got a life sentance in prison for 1 murder, however, when his murder tally doubles, he gets exectued... poor him....
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Walkie Talkie Man wrote:
Maybe I'm thinking too hard on this one, but it has me stumped.

Spoiler: 4-1
Kristoph nailed Shadi over the head with a grape juice bottle. My question is: How? How did Kristoph get the grape juice bottle in the first place? I'm assuming it was the one that was lying on the table next to Shadi. If that's the case, Kristoph would have had to reach for the bottle before delivering the killing blow, giving Shadi enough time to subdue Kristoph. So, either Shadi fails at reaction time or I'm not getting something here.


Here's what I'm thinking in response to that.
Spoiler: 1-1 / 4-1
There was a photo of Phoenix and Shadi talking by the piano and the table where Phoenix and Kristoph just had dinner. There was a crate of grape juice bottles by the piano. Kristoph could've grabbed any one of those before going down to the one of the secret entrances.

What I found funny was how easily Kristoph figured that Shadi was Zak, and to a lesser degree how he wanted a poker rematch with Phoenix.

When Kristoph passed by Shadi at the front door, he must've seriously kept his cool if he recognized him. Even if the thought dawned on him later that's fine too. Either way, Kristoph doubled back into the restaurant and figured Phoenix and Shadi were in the middle of a game. I dunno if eavesdropping is something Kristoph wouldn't mind doing, but I wouldn't deny that possibility either.

Or another way of thinking about it is Kristoph was just good at remembering faces, and grudges.

Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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nuuuuu, stoooooop

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To Tuntis~

Spoiler: 4-2
They say a few times that Meraktis panicked, so I assume he was just freaked out enough that his expertise momentarily left him.


Ultrasaint~

Spoiler: 4-4
Kristoph did get the death penalty, I think (at least, there's nothing to suggest that the law was changed). But in PW world it takes at least 5 to 6 years for that sentence to be carried out, most of the time (in the cases of Terry and Dahlia, anyway). So it's no surprise that he was still alive a few months later, for 4-4.

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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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So this topic finally got dig up. Thank you Croik^3^


axl99 wrote:

Here's what I'm thinking in response to that.
Spoiler: 1-1 / 4-1
There was a photo of Phoenix and Shadi talking by the piano and the table where Phoenix and Kristoph just had dinner. There was a crate of grape juice bottles by the piano. Kristoph could've grabbed any one of those before going down to the one of the secret entrances.

What I found funny was how easily Kristoph figured that Shadi was Zak, and to a lesser degree how he wanted a poker rematch with Phoenix.

When Kristoph passed by Shadi at the front door, he must've seriously kept his cool if he recognized him. Even if the thought dawned on him later that's fine too. Either way, Kristoph doubled back into the restaurant and figured Phoenix and Shadi were in the middle of a game. I dunno if eavesdropping is something Kristoph wouldn't mind doing, but I wouldn't deny that possibility either.

Or another way of thinking about it is Kristoph was just good at remembering faces, and grudges.



Spoiler: 4-1/4-4
Er...according to the journalist's (still don't know what's his English name is) words, both Zak and himself were watched by someone for seven years, and :kyouya: also figured it out in the trail ("In the passed seven years, you were always living in spoiling water, weren't you?"). :garyuu: was trying to find and kill them all the time, so as soon as Zak turned up, he got killed. That's why I don't think :garyuu: should have any problem to recognize Zak and keep in clam. :pearl:

You can call me whatever you want:3
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title

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HHLsp wrote:
Spoiler:
Kirihito is guilty of murder in case 1 right? Whether he is guilty in Case 4 or not. He is going to die, so why does he freak out at last?




Spoiler:
Probably because Phoenix has driven him into the ground even lower, and the dark secret he's kept for all these years was finally broken out... by Phoenix himself, and his own student.

He also loses EVEN more respect from everyone else, and he's not just a murderer, but a dirty cheating forging murderer. He's lost respect as a citizen, and then loses respect as a lawyer too.
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