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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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Here's one for 4-3. Towards the end of the case, everyone is saying that Apollo can't win the case because he can't prove Daryan did it. But that's not his job! He has proven that someone other than Machi could have commited the crime. And considering all the "Coincidences", whilst they may not have been able to find Daryan guilty, they could certainly find Machi not guilty.
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Quote:
But that's not his job! He has proven that someone other than Machi could have committed the crime.


If that held in the world of Ace Attorney, most of the cases would be a LOT shorter. The burden of proof is on the defendant in this universe, to an insane degree. Hence the Jurist System as a better alternative.

Ardee: That case 4-1 contradiction bothered me so much that I wrote an entire mock trial, which I ran via AIM, based on the premise that:

Spoiler: AU
... Kristoph DOES get the card checked. And the blood's genuine.

Meaning that Phoenix went so far as to get a drop of the victim's blood and plant it on a spare ace, when he returned to the room and figured out what happened. In my alternate trial, he manages to frame Kristoph for forging evidence, in a crowning moment of twisted, horrible glory.

I considered making it into an Ace Attorney On-Line game, but there just wasn't enough material there.

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Spoiler: 4-4
I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but in the first day of the trial, the jusge starts to say "This court finds the defendant--" When Klavier objects. It's not the judge's decision in that trial. It's the jury's. So why did he almost hand down a verdict?

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Spoiler: 4-4
Perhaps the jury was just like, "lolzguilty" and the judge had a panel on his bench saying that? That's the only thing I can think of xD

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Shadow Fox wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but in the first day of the trial, the jusge starts to say "This court finds the defendant--" When Klavier objects. It's not the judge's decision in that trial. It's the jury's. So why did he almost hand down a verdict?


It is the Judge's first jury trial. Maybe he was just senile confused. We're talking about a man not known for his wit.

Quote:
The bullet holes prove the general location from which Daryan shot LeTouse. From that general area, it would seem unthinkable that LeTouse didn't see him. Also, we know there was a struggle, given the state of the room, the fact that the killer killed LeTouse with his own gun, and LeTouse had Klavier's keys.


I still think it's possible that LeTouse saw Daryan, but didn't know his name, and therefore didn't know how to identify him to Apollo. But he knew that Lamiroir would have heard his voice (however unlikely and bizarre that was) and she never mistakes someone once she's heard them, so that's how he directed Apollo.

LeTouse was an interpol agent investigating Borginians after all, not a general music fan - it's not that shocking that he wouldn't know the Gavinner's members outside Klavier, since only Klavier was going to be playing with Lamiroir and Machi.
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This is interesting, I remember Phoenix saying ''Poisoning, and betrayal... Some only a cowardly man would do!'' In T&T.

However, in the first case of Apollo Justice:

Spoiler: 4-1
He prepared forged evidence (of a real piece of hidden evidence) to prove Kristoph's Guilt. He sort of Poisoned, Apollo's mind and his innocence. And the fact that Apollo admires him deeply, that makes it worse.

Then at the very end of the trial, Phoenix admitted to the false evidence, that shouldn't exist. Of course, the blood ace. Betrayal? I think so. In fact, even Apollo himself gave him an uppercut.


So has Phoenix's values changed along with him? Or is this another forgotten flaw?
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Phoenix did what he felt he had to to put Kristoph away.

It's also important to bear in mind that 4-1 takes place SEVEN YEARS after T&T. Think about it: Do you have all of the exact same morals, values, opinions, and traits that you did seven years ago? Character development is not a contradiction.
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Actually, Croik, I'm saying that very same thing-LeTouse most likely did see his attacker, and that was a list of reasons why.^^;

In regards to the bloody ace, it was never meant to be real. He presented it to show a possibility. It was kind of like when Franziska showed that piece of evidence during case 2-2 that was illegal. Even though it couldn't be officially accepted, what it proved was burned into the judge's mind just by presenting it. Phoenix never argued the ace was real. When Kristoph seemed to argue that fact, I recall he said something along the lines of what I mentioned.
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Its not really a condratiction but it got me a bit confused :meekins:
Spoiler: 7 years
After 7 years Zak would officially disappear, yes?
So Dahlia should have disappeared officially after being missing for 7 years after the event on Dusky Bridge but she came back during 3-4/3-1.
So would it be possible for Zak to return in a later game?

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76_trombone wrote:
Its not really a condratiction but it got me a bit confused :meekins:
Spoiler: 7 years
After 7 years Zak would officially disappear, yes?
So Dahlia should have disappeared officially after being missing for 7 years after the event on Dusky Bridge but she came back during 3-4/3-1.
So would it be possible for Zak to return in a later game?

For some reason I thought she was missing for 5 years... and no, Zak will extremely likely not be appearing in another game.
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Lind_L_Tailor wrote:
76_trombone wrote:
Its not really a condratiction but it got me a bit confused :meekins:
Spoiler: 7 years
After 7 years Zak would officially disappear, yes?
So Dahlia should have disappeared officially after being missing for 7 years after the event on Dusky Bridge but she came back during 3-4/3-1.
So would it be possible for Zak to return in a later game?

For some reason I thought she was missing for 5 years... and no, Zak will extremely likely not be appearing in another game.

*Runs and checks*
Oops, my bad :larry:
I told you it made me confused :meekins:
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Uh, Zak died. Unless they bring the Feys back and have someone channel him, no he ain't comin' back.
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In PW world if someone is gone for 7 years they are declared legally dead, so that their will can be inacted/assests divided/etc, but if the person came back AFTER that it's not as if the police would ignore their existance... It would probably just be a red tape nightmare.
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Spoiler: 4-3
How did LeTouse know that Lamiroir was a witness? He didn't know of the illusion, because as was said, it was on a need-to-know basis. He also couldn't have seen or, as Apollo (I think it was Apollo) pointed out, heard her.

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GigaHand wrote:
Spoiler: 4-3
How did LeTouse know that Lamiroir was a witness? He didn't know of the illusion, because as was said, it was on a need-to-know basis. He also couldn't have seen or, as Apollo (I think it was Apollo) pointed out, heard her.


I believe I gave my thoughts on this already, but I would assume he saw the broach fall from the vent and figured she must be up there. Even if he was not told the truth behind the illusion, it's possible he knew about Valant's plan to make her disappear from the stage and reappear in the back of the hall. When he saw the broach fall, he could have put two and two together. Of course, regardless, her broach suddenly falling from the vent would suggest she was up there even if he had no idea why.
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Quote:
Spoiler: "Case 4"
How was Doburoku able to keep contact with Kirihito even when the later was in prison, if he didn't know who Makoto's client was? Unless he knew all along and just lied to everyone, because he knew that Makoto was still under Kirihito's "magic".


Spoiler: 4-4
Maybe Mr. Misham recongnized a different part of his body? He saw both Klavier and Kristoph, and maybe he recongnized a different feature? He can't be that dumb, and if he did the nessesary reasearch he would know Klavier had a twin brother, and he might have thought that if Klavier didn't forge it, then process of elimination goes easily.
There's a contradiction about him knowing "all along" too. When he said he didn't know the client, I don't recall Psyche-Locks.
Though how he might have NOT known that Kristoph forged it but then 7 years later he wrote a letter to Gavin is easy to explain. When Wright first visits him in his studio, Drew did not who the identity of the forger. In the time span of 7 years he could have done his research.


Though this is all a possibility, and maybe I contradicted myself.
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Last edited by Brawldud on Fri May 08, 2009 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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Brawldud wrote:
if he did the nessesary reasearch he would know Klavier had a twin brother

:gregory:
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It's not so hard, when you think about it. He obviously had a way of communicating with him back then, even if they never met in person. When he mailed the letter, he mailed it to the address on the red envelope, and it was forwarded to the right person.
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Cross out twin. :payne:
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TheSteelSamurai wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
Spoiler: 4-3
How did LeTouse know that Lamiroir was a witness? He didn't know of the illusion, because as was said, it was on a need-to-know basis. He also couldn't have seen or, as Apollo (I think it was Apollo) pointed out, heard her.


I believe I gave my thoughts on this already, but I would assume he saw the broach fall from the vent and figured she must be up there. Even if he was not told the truth behind the illusion, it's possible he knew about Valant's plan to make her disappear from the stage and reappear in the back of the hall. When he saw the broach fall, he could have put two and two together. Of course, regardless, her broach suddenly falling from the vent would suggest she was up there even if he had no idea why.

Only he didn't see the broach fall. There was a partition in the way, and even if he heard it (which is unlikely given the loudspeaker in the room) how would he know it was the broach?
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What I want to know is how Kristoph, 25 at the time, had a spare 100k to pay for the forgery. I'm pretty sure lawyers aren't THAT minted, especially so young! :pft:
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evildiva wrote:
What I want to know is how Kristoph, 25 at the time, had a spare 100k to pay for the forgery. I'm pretty sure lawyers aren't THAT minted, especially so young! :pft:

That's not really a contradiction... think about it, we know nothing about his family. He could come from a rich background.
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Lind_L_Tailor wrote:
evildiva wrote:
What I want to know is how Kristoph, 25 at the time, had a spare 100k to pay for the forgery. I'm pretty sure lawyers aren't THAT minted, especially so young! :pft:

That's not really a contradiction... think about it, we know nothing about his family. He could come from a rich background.


Yeh, I suppose so. They do heavily imply that all the prosecutors are loaded... but defense lawyers too? :yogi:
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I dunno. Klavier managed to pass the bar exam at 17, so his family would have to be rich. Come on, Kristoph even has three bottles of Ariadoney! (One of which he gave to the victim of 4-4's daughter, and another he gave to PW)
He also has those glasses. They don't look exactly cheap :yuusaku: and he looks like he dyed his hair blonde (considering Klavier's is a bit darker). How did Klavier get such unique clothes?
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In fact, that's probably how Klavier got his foot in the door of the music industry.
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Brawldud wrote:
Kristoph even has three bottles of Ariadoney!


What's so special about Ariadoney? It's a made-up brand, right?

Brawldud wrote:
and he looks like he dyed his hair blonde (considering Klavier's is a bit darker).


Er... they aren't identical twins :sillytrucy:
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evildiva wrote:
Brawldud wrote:
Kristoph even has three bottles of Ariadoney!


What's so special about Ariadoney? It's a made-up brand, right?

Brawldud wrote:
and he looks like he dyed his hair blonde (considering Klavier's is a bit darker).


Er... they aren't identical twins :sillytrucy:


Response to Quote 1:
It's a made-up brand. Inside the game, I believe Kristoph mentions it's expensive, or at the least, fashionable, proven by Gavin when he said that Vera had a good taste in nail polish.

Response to Quote 2:
I never said they were indentical twins in this "rich" arguement. But they are brothers by DNA and their genetic coding is roughly the same. Their body features would be similar, and brothers WOULD share similar hair colors.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
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Oh, one more thing that suggests he's rich:

LOOK AT THE PRISON CELL!
Spoiler: 4-4
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IT LOOKS LIKE A LIVING ROOM!!!

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Brawldud wrote:
Oh, one more thing that suggests he's rich:

LOOK AT THE PRISON CELL!
Spoiler: 4-4
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IT LOOKS LIKE A LIVING ROOM!!!

Yes, but he had seven years after the forgery was paid off to make that money.
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Brawldud wrote:
and he looks like he dyed his hair blonde (considering Klavier's is a bit darker).

My hair and my brother's hair aren't exactly the same colour. His is quite noticably darker than mine, and, no, he's never touched hair dye. Nor have I.

Although what does hair dye have to do with being rich?
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I don't know if this has been answered before, but... about case 4-1

I was just thinking, why did Kristoph swap the ace with a king, instead of swapping the ace for another ace? I can't remember if they give a reason in the game. It seems a bit counter-intuitive for the killer to change the value of the card in the hand instead of just replacing it with a non-bloody version. :yuusaku:
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Here's another one for you (4-4)

Drew says he never knew what the gift from the client was, because Vera never told him. But you can see the nail polish is in plain view, so... how could he not know where it was from, if Vera never left the house? She couldn't have got it anywhere else!
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evildiva wrote:
I don't know if this has been answered before, but... about case 4-1

I was just thinking, why did Kristoph swap the ace with a king, instead of swapping the ace for another ace? I can't remember if they give a reason in the game. It seems a bit counter-intuitive for the killer to change the value of the card in the hand instead of just replacing it with a non-bloody version. :yuusaku:

He was in a hurry.
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evildiva wrote:
I don't know if this has been answered before, but... about case 4-1

I was just thinking, why did Kristoph swap the ace with a king, instead of swapping the ace for another ace? I can't remember if they give a reason in the game. It seems a bit counter-intuitive for the killer to change the value of the card in the hand instead of just replacing it with a non-bloody version. :yuusaku:

You mean the fabricated ace? Kristoph never touched it :yuusaku:
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Marshmello wrote:
evildiva wrote:
I don't know if this has been answered before, but... about case 4-1

I was just thinking, why did Kristoph swap the ace with a king, instead of swapping the ace for another ace? I can't remember if they give a reason in the game. It seems a bit counter-intuitive for the killer to change the value of the card in the hand instead of just replacing it with a non-bloody version. :yuusaku:

You mean the fabricated ace? Kristoph never touched it :yuusaku:

No, he's saying that there would have been no suspicion if Kristoph had just switched the Ace with another Ace, instead of a King.
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Lind_L_Tailor wrote:
No, he's saying that there would have been no suspicion if Kristoph had just switched the Ace with another Ace, instead of a King.


She...


Another couple of points about 4-1

If Phoenix and Shadi were playing with a red deck, why is there a blue deck on the table?

Also, about the moment of the murder. Apollo says that Kristoph came out of the secret passage and used the bottle on the table to hit Shadi, but that would mean he had to walk around Shadi, reach over the table and then go back and hit him from the passage. Does not compute!
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evildiva wrote:
Also, about the moment of the murder. Apollo says that Kristoph came out of the secret passage and used the bottle on the table to hit Shadi, but that would mean he had to walk around Shadi, reach over the table and then go back and hit him from the passage. Does not compute!

IIRC they state in the case that Shadi turned around in his chair to face Kristoph before he was hit.
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Marshmello wrote:
evildiva wrote:
Also, about the moment of the murder. Apollo says that Kristoph came out of the secret passage and used the bottle on the table to hit Shadi, but that would mean he had to walk around Shadi, reach over the table and then go back and hit him from the passage. Does not compute!

IIRC they state in the case that Shadi turned around in his chair to face Kristoph before he was hit.


And?
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evildiva wrote:
Marshmello wrote:
evildiva wrote:
Also, about the moment of the murder. Apollo says that Kristoph came out of the secret passage and used the bottle on the table to hit Shadi, but that would mean he had to walk around Shadi, reach over the table and then go back and hit him from the passage. Does not compute!

IIRC they state in the case that Shadi turned around in his chair to face Kristoph before he was hit.


And?

... Which means that Kristoph didn't have to walk around the table to hit him. Kristoph hit him from the entrance of the secret passage. Didn't they show all of that in the crime scene reconstruction thing?
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Marshmello wrote:
... Which means that Kristoph didn't have to walk around the table to hit him. Kristoph hit him from the entrance of the secret passage. Didn't they show all of that in the crime scene reconstruction thing?


You misunderstand me. Kristoph didn't have a bottle when he opened the passage, so he had to pick one up from the table which is behind Shadi!
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