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Phoenix needs Mia...Topic%20Title
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Forgive me for being blunt about it but if Mia had any say in how Phoenix was living his life between Ace Attorney 3 and 4, she'd probably have set him right.

It's the best explanation behind his change given how Phoenix's personality and demeanor was at the end of Ace Attorney 3 (full of confidence and a firm understanding of his purpose and place in the world). What happened to him would probably shake anyone but if Mia was there, he probably wouldn't have let it hang over his head and he'd have done more to pull himself up.

In other words he wouldn't have taken seven years to finally sort himself out and put his demons to rest the way he did in this game.
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This is my first thought about things, but I think the Feys went back to Kurain shortly after T&T. He wouldn't have gotten much guidance and encouragement, then. Yes; I believe it's a fact that Phoenix won't push himself for something without the Feys backing him up. This would explain why nobody else was around when he adopted Trucy.

As for seven years, he didn't wait that long because of his inner demons. From the Mason System, we could tell that he was piecing things together already, and he knew who caused his disbarment. He wasn't frustrated. He just needed to wait for Kristoph to slip up. It just so happened everything from seven years ago finally caught up with him, beginning from 4-1. The other example of this would be the Mishams being poisoned in 4-4. As implied, Kristoph was playing roulette with their lives, and it just so happened he finally got them after seven years. Phoenix felt this was coming, but he knew he didn't have decisive evidence to prove his guilt. So in the background, he set something up and pushed for a new court order so that Kristoph wouldn't be able to get away from his crimes: the Jurist System.
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Phoenix obviously needed Mia anyway. First case he took without a Fey (or Ema) in his corner and he lost his license. :lana:
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True. I think that's the only thing I don't like about Phoenix: he tends to be dependent.
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Glad you appreciate what I'm saying. I thought I'd be chased off with a stick for proposing this.

It's Phoenix's laid-back attitude that's so striking. Contrasting with his vigor and spirit at the end of Ace Attorney 3, it's like he lost his will to fight and resigned himself to whatever life fate would throw his way. Outwardly, he speaks like a guy with a cool head and someone who's in control but the vibe I got from his internal motivations was more like a man who was living this way because he couldn't forgive himself.

EDIT: I'm reminded of Mia's profile in 3-5. Phoenix describes her as his "eternal mentor in law and life." If you take that into account, he really did need Mia to show him the way forward. He is kind of dependent but Mia is also a wise and honorable person so relying on her guidance would probably have spared him seven years of being a recluse.
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I believe this is also a pretty striking contrast to Apollo. He does have Trucy with him, but other than pushing him into the right direction before he really knows how to Perceive things, she doesn't tend to have that "all important sidekick that needs to help me" aspect. I see Apollo as a much more independent person and fighter since Trucy tends to just kinda watch from her post and never really has all the answers.
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Trucy's good for her own reasons. Best character in the game.
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Re: Phoenix needs Mia...Topic%20Title
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Phoenix seems to be more dependent on other people, mostly Mia or Maya, and not doing everything himself, it seems. Apollo, even though in the first case it seems like Phoenix and Kristoph did most of the work, Trucy didn't interfere and the rest of the game he did everything himself, so they are pretty different in that concept.
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Well, Trucy did kind of interfere... she played that trick in case two to get you a recess that you needed to set things straight :P

Spoiler:
Fake kidnapping anyone?


So she wasn't always off to the side. I feel like she kind of took Apollo's spotlight a bit too. And at the end, she did help you explain things, I believe she and Apollo were finishing off each other's sentences at that point.

But I agree, she is one of my favorite characters in that game.
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Re: Phoenix needs Mia...Topic%20Title
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I dunno. I think Phoenix desperately depending on Mia all the time is a bit of an exaggeration. Most the most part Phoenix can handle things very well on his own. He's had plenty of times when he didn't have an assistant or Mia to help him and he still manged to handle it. There are just rare times when he's blocked in a corner with no idea of what to do, and that's when his friends come through for him.

I honestly don't get this topic. What exactly is so bad about having people you can rely on to help you when you need it the most? That's one of the lessons Phoenix learns in 2-4.

Also, I fear this is turning into another "Phoenix vs Apollo" topic, let's try to leave Apollo out of this discussion, okay? :gregory:

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In other words he wouldn't have taken seven years to finally sort himself out and put his demons to rest the way he did in this game.


I think you're missing the point of Phoenix's role in AJ. It wasn't that he didn't want to do anything about what happened, it was that he couldn't. He had been on the investigation for seven years, bidding his time until the opportunity came for him to clear his name. The Phoenix we saw for the majority of the game was a facade, a mask for his true feelings.

That's a major problem I see with the subject of Phoenix in AJ, the fans take him too much at face value, judging his character entirely on how he acted in the first case, when in reality everything he did in that case was part of his plan to convict Kristoph. 4-4 shows us he's still very much the same person on the inside. He seriously misses being an attorney, and he still has that idealistic drive to help people. This is one of the reasons I want him to reclaim his badge in the next game, so people can stop acting like he's gone a total 180 and actually see his true self.
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I don't think he especially needs Mia....in fact I believe his actions in AJ indicate he doesn't need her.
Ok sure he lost his badge....there's no indication that he hadn't lost cases before, in fact I think Maya at one point implies he's lost at least one case off screen round about the time of the Furio Tigre incident.
If Mia had been with him in that case there's very little evidence she could have saved him. The document was a wonderful forgery, only identifiable by Drew's own touch Mia would have no information about it, sure she might have cottoned on to who exactly was responsible for the forgery but Nick managed that on his own. Previously Mia had information (about Godot about Dahlia about Kurain tradition) but she could have no way of saving Nick in this situation.

The fact Nick took action and planned such an intricate trap for Kristoph indicates he is now a competent independent individual.
As the Mason system indicates he took action IMMEDIATELY after his disbarment investigating what had truly happened. Some lesser men would turn to the pub, drown their sorrows in alcohol or fall into a depression at the loss of their life's work. Nick picked up the pieces straight away and worked out a plan to exact his revenge.

If anything Nick is a psychologically-healthy non-dependent competent individual who doesn't need Mia to tie his shoelaces and kiss his bobo's.
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I think he was biding his time and trying to get some concrete proof that Kristoph was behind everything-- and that pride might have come into it, personally.

Phoenix likes being seen as capable and independent or in charge a lot of the time, and seems to not like losing face and doesn't seem especially good at asking for help. Yes, he does rely on others, but he doesn't say "Please help me"-- he's almost sneaky in the way he gets information out of people a lot of the time. And on the occasions where he has been helped (ie. when Miles returned in JFA), that wasn't because he requested assistance.

I think once he realised how stupid he was and how easily set up he was, pride (as well as practicality-- I got a strong sense Mia wasn't coming back post T&T) and a sense of "Okay, I fucked things up, I have to make it right" was what left him fighting with the resources he had on hand rather than relying on the Feys.

IMHO, he needed to prove himself like that without assistance. You know when you sometimes just have to do things by yourself, and afterwards, you have a sense of "I did this?" I think that was Phoenix's.

EDIT: Another point, which I don't think has been raised: I don't think Phoenix was abandoned by the Feys, but I think given what went down at Kurain, for them to return to their "safe place," and for Miles to go overseas... it was how they handled what was essentially a traumatic situation. And seven years is a long time: I'm sure all of us have had the experience of losing contact with a friend and then time and other day-to-day mundanities getting in the way of rebuilding the friendship/seeing what's going on with someone.
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I have my own beliefs on what Phoenix's character endured between Ace Attorney 3 and Ace Attorney 4.

My goal with my second playthrough of Apollo Justice is to really cut down to the core of that. My focus is on Phoenix this time around and seeing if I can read into his emotions and discover what makes him tick now and maybe what went through his mind between the two games.

...

Maybe then my fanfiction will feel complete...
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Gyakuten$aiban wrote:
I have my own beliefs on what Phoenix's character endured between Ace Attorney 3 and Ace Attorney 4.

My goal with my second playthrough of Apollo Justice is to really cut down to the core of that. My focus is on Phoenix this time around and seeing if I can read into his emotions and discover what makes him tick now and maybe what went through his mind between the two games.

...

Maybe then my fanfiction will feel complete...


All your really gonna need is case 1 and case 4.

Case 4 was enough for me to make my deduction on how Nick felt during his absence from court.
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Re: Phoenix needs Mia...Topic%20Title
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You see that in Chapt.4 Phoenix was really all confident about himself, he knew that there was always a tiny hole in the most bullet-proof testimony, he was really sure that HE being an experienced attorney would have won the case by himself.
He also knew that evidence (the piece of paper which was forged) was strangely SO obvious, he was nervous, it was his only hope due to the law system in that time, he HAD to have decisive evidence...
I think that was the whole the point in that case.. when you get so successful you get enemies, who'd have known it was Kristoph who dared to do that to poor Mr. Wright..

he couldn't have done anything to Kristoph while the system was the same, it took several years, but at last, he could clean his name with a lil Justice.
Re: Phoenix needs Mia...Topic%20Title
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Gyakuten$aiban wrote:
EDIT: I'm reminded of Mia's profile in 3-5. Phoenix describes her as his "eternal mentor in law and life." If you take that into account, he really did need Mia to show him the way forward. He is kind of dependent but Mia is also a wise and honorable person so relying on her guidance would probably have spared him seven years of being a recluse.


He wasn't a recluse, he was a single father trying to raise a rambunctious daughter. Poker at Borscht sure didn't seem glamorous, but he was doing what he had to in order to support his new family. With his badge gone it's not like he could get a job anywhere in law, and his major before that was in the arts--not the career path you can gamble on when you have a kid to look after. Maybe he could have done better, but if he's working and the money is enough for him and Trucy to live on, isn't that proof enough that he's doing the responsible thing?

I'm not sure what having dead Mia around would change. Maybe she could convince him to shave! But it's not like she could get him a better job (unless she used her boob power to sway some supervisor) or solve the Kristoph case any faster than Phoenix.
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I feel I've done this thread a disservice by not being able to defend my point that well.

I'll revisit this once I beat Ace Attorney 4 (if I do; given that Investigations is almost out).
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I was replaying 1-2 today and Mia makes a comment to Phoenix about how she can "see everything" towards the end of the case, like her spirit's floating around the office or something.

Which interested me, because then I was thinking about AJ and wondering if she was still hanging around like that or not (my gut feeling is that no, she wasn't, and that T&T suggested at the end that she had gone off to wherever rested spirits of dead lawyers go) and seeing stuff that went down post-T&T.

I don't know what she could have done, either,
Spoiler: 4-4
beyond screaming "DON'T TAKE IT!" about the page Trucy offered
had she seen that, or giving Phoenix a "Don't give up-- FIGHT THIS!" pep talk.

Phoenix was kind of screwed regardless of who might have tried intervening, IMHO. He had to fight his way out himself. (Yes, he had assistance, but ultimately a lot of his success came down to figuring people out and, well, utilising them.)
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Phoenix obviously needed Mia anyway. First case he took without a Fey (or Ema) in his corner and he lost his license. :lana:


Bwahahha. Im kinda late but that made me LOL. Probably becuase i just realised it's true.
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Spoiler: 4-4
Don't get mistaken people. Phoenix was owning young Klavier. I'm not sure why he accepted evidence from a little girl (Namely, Trucy). After he lost his badge (he didn't lose the case, it was suspended because of Zak.), then he needed Mia to shape him up again. But more than Mia, he needed Edgeworth to clear his name. He would have done it and done it with ease. Edgeworth is the man.

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True. Where is he all this time? Hopefully, we'll get answers in GS5.
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Karmi-Sempai wrote:
True. Where is he all this time? Hopefully, we'll get answers in GS5.


Rather....we won't.

I'd like AJ2 to be ALOT more Apollo centric with only implied cameos like there was in AJ1.
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Spoiler: Already leaning into AJ 2...
Still, I don't think it'll be easy to simply write off the other PW cast members. We'll just have to see what they come up with. I also hope we get to see more into Apollo's character. His personal life and motivations still need touching upon.

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Karmi-Sempai wrote:
Spoiler: Already leaning into AJ 2...
Still, I don't think it'll be easy to simply write off the other PW cast members. We'll just have to see what they come up with. I also hope we get to see more into Apollo's character. His personal life and motivations still need touching upon.


You don't think it'll be easy? It's a simple matter of NOT MENTIONING THEM AND AVOIDING TOO MANY REFERENCES TO OLD CASES. They have to go OUT of their way to write them in. Ema is fine I suppose seeing as she's almost a completely different person and Phoenix can be fine so long as they don't write a story around him now but I don't see any reason for them to include others or why it'd be difficult.

Yes the fans may cry and whine but fanbases are absolutely ridiculous and unsatisfiable.
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Spoiler: Leaning into AJ2
Actually, taking into account of what I just learned a few minutes ago, I agree now. I didn't know AJ2 is supposedly the last game in the series... Even if I'm a member of the PW camp, I find that they should've just kept him out of it, then. What a mess...

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Karmi-Sempai wrote:
Spoiler: Leaning into AJ2
Actually, taking into account of what I just learned a few minutes ago, I agree now. I didn't know AJ2 is supposedly the last game in the series... Even if I'm a member of the PW camp, I find that they should've just kept him out of it, then. What a mess...


Last game of the series? Says who?
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Spoiler: Leaning into AJ2/GS5
Pierre wrote:
Last game of the series? Says who?

  • http://gbatemp.net/?act=ST&f=27&t=74857
  • http://www.gamespot.com/ds/adventure/gyakutensaiban5/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-41160744&pid=939946

The original article supposedly came from COurt Records but I can't find it. I hope it won't end yet, but the new game sounds promising.

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Karmi-Sempai wrote:
Spoiler: Leaning into AJ2/GS5
Pierre wrote:
Last game of the series? Says who?

  • http://gbatemp.net/?act=ST&f=27&t=74857
  • http://www.gamespot.com/ds/adventure/gyakutensaiban5/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-41160744&pid=939946

The original article supposedly came from COurt Records but I can't find it. I hope it won't end yet, but the new game sounds promising.



This FAKE rumor originated on a Chinese msg board and is not true.
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Ah, thank you for clearing things up.
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Phoenix obviously needed Mia anyway. First case he took without a Fey (or Ema) in his corner and he lost his license. :lana:


Obviously it should be Maya as the defence attorney and Phoenix as the side-kick. :maya:

But yeah. Phoenix did have some talent but if it hadn't been for Mia in a lot of instances, he would have been screwed.
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