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Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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(I would like to thank Puchi for giving me this idea in first place. Credits for the basic idea go to her.)

Hobo!Phoenix is often accused of acting OoC during AJ. Not just because of his mannerisms - those are excusable, given we know that Nick can act very differently outwardly if he wants to. Feenie, his bluff tactics... That's all part of it.

However, a big thing that is often seen as being absolutely not in-tune with his character is one certain instance: The forged, bloody Ace that become the final, decisive evidence in the last crossexamination of the case. After the case, Phoenix confesses to Apollo that the card was forged and claims he did it... however, something doesn't match up with that.

When could Phoenix have forged the card? After he was arrested, he was under constant supervision. Before he was arrested? Zak wasn't bleeding heavily. In order to get a drop of blood onto the card like that without smearing it all over his hands, he'd have had to cut his own finger and drop some of his own blood onto it. Needless to say, I think the police would have noticed if Nick had had a cutwound or bitewound on his finger, right?

There's someone, whoever, who could have easily forged the card without causing suspicion: The person who handed the card to Apollo in first case.

Believe it or not, I am talking about Trucy. Not only does she constantly wear gloves that would cover up any wounds on her hands, she also is a stage preformer and thus surely has easy access to things like film-blood. She could easily have forged the card.

The trial was already in a late stage when Trucy stepped up to Apollo and handed him the card and by that point, it would have been easy to tell for a person with quick deduction skills that the Ace was probably swapped to conceal a bloodstain. Trucy was probably watching the trail from the gallery. She also is known for being a quick logical thinker behind her outwardly airheaded-tendencies. She would have understood what's going on. Not just that, her father's life was on the line. Trucy is not exactly known for her tight abiding to rules other than the Magician's codex. If it was "Daddy's Life" against "Potentially getting another Lawyer disbarred", she'd probably have chosen the later. Trucy didn't know Apollo back then. All she knew was that he was working for Kristoph and Kristoph had just killed her Daddy No 1 and was trying to get Daddy No 2 a life sentence. She probably wouldn't have had any qualms about endangering the career of someone from his law offices.

When Trucy shows up, she says this:

Quote:
???:
...May I?

Apollo:
Huh? What?

???:
Hello, sir.
Please, pick a card.

Apollo:
(Wh-What's all this about?)

Apollo:
Uh... Is this one OK?

???:
...Excellent.
I have a message for you.

???:
"The last hand is about to be
played. You'll need a trump
card to make it."

Apollo:
A trump card...?

???:
"The card you have chosen
is magical."

???:
"Use it wisely, and the
game is yours."

???:
That's all.

Apollo:
(An ace... Where do I remember
that card from?)

Apollo:
(The missing fifth ace!)

Apollo:
(Wait... This blotch of red...
Is this blood?)

???:
You have your trump card.
Now it's up to you to cut the
deck and draw... the truth.

???:
My father's fate is in your
hands. I know you can do it!



The "Message" makes it seem like Trucy had been sent by Nick, but, really? Nick was in police costudy at the time. He'd have had no opportunity to give Trucy the card and the message without being spotted. Also, the situation is TOO simmilar to what happened 7 years ago. Do you seriously think Nick would want to use Trucy for the exact same dirty trick Kristoph used her for? And, even worse, potentially put her into danger of being called a forger? What if the fraud had been found out and Apollo was asked to explain himself? There was a chance he'd have named Trucy as the source of the card and then she would have been in huge trouble. Nick wouldn't have willingly risked that. He's too loving of a father.

The "message" Trucy gives to Apollo could easily also have been her own. The Gramayres have a tendency to speak in riddles when they want to conceal something. Trucy, naturally, wouldn't want to give away the true nature of the card, but she'd also want to give Apollo some pointers. Her dialouge could easily just seem so Hobo!Nick-ish, because, well, he *did* raise her.

Now, let's take a look at Nick's and Apollo's dialouge later:

Quote:
Apollo:
Today was full of questions
without answers... Most of
them about Mr. Gavin.

Phoenix:
What possible reason could
he have had to commit murder?

Phoenix:
Perhaps you'll learn that
in the days to come...

Apollo:
Huh? Wait... You don't know,
do you?

Phoenix:
This locket is the key...

Apollo:
Huh? Oh, that reminds me,
I met the girl whose picture
is in your locket.

Apollo:
Your... daughter, right?

Phoenix:
That's right. She's my
daughter.

Phoenix:
You know, you were right about
this locket.

Apollo:
Eh...?

Phoenix:
I took this off his neck the
night he died.

Phoenix:
...But it looks like our
dear "Russian" scam artist
saw me.

Phoenix:
So the truth is, this locket
really did belong to him.

Apollo:
Wait! But that's perjury!!!

Apollo:
You testified! You said
that locket was yours!

Phoenix:
I said no such thing,
actually.

Apollo
Huh?

Phoenix:
I merely said that it was
"a locket" with my daughter's
picture inside.

Phoenix:
A subtle distinction, but
a distinction none the less.

Phoenix:
And it's the truth.

[...]

Apollo:
Have you ever thought about
coming back to the courts?

Phoenix:
I'm... not qualified to stand
in a court of law, I'm afraid.

Phoenix:
Didn't you notice in today's
trial?

Phoenix:
There was a single piece of
forged evidence.

Apollo:
Forged evidence!?
Wh-What are you talking
about!?

Phoenix:
I'm talking about evidence
that shouldn't have existed.
A naughty magician's trick...

Apollo:
(Hmm... One piece of evidence
struck me as odd, it's true.)

Apollo:
(It just seemed, well, too
perfect.)

Apollo:
(I'll bet this was the
forged evidence.)

((Present Bloody Ace))

Apollo:
*TAKE THAT!*

Apollo:
You mean this, don't you?

Apollo:
I got this from your, erm,
your daughter, Mr. Wright.

Phoenix:
Yes... That card couldn't have
been found at the crime scene.


Phoenix:
Why? Because the killer took
it with him when he left.

Phoenix:
Leaving the wrong card in
its place... luckily for us.

Phoenix:
My verdict was already
handed down... seven
years ago.

Apollo:
Then... You really...?

Phoenix:
Yes.
I forged this card.

Phoenix:
One look at the crime scene
should've told you it wasn't
real.



This is where Nick admits to Apollo that he "forged" the Ace.

However, if you pay attention to the timing, you'll realize something significant: Firstly, Nick is trying to teach Apollo how easy it is to twist the truth without lying. That's something significant for the whole game.

Secondly, and more importantly, however, when does Phoenix admit to the "forgery"? After Apollo says "I met your daughter."



Let's turn the PoV around, shall we? Imagine the whole thing from Nick's perspective. He stands in court, he fully trusts into Apollo's skills, though he's still nervous something might go wrong because Kristoph, really, really neatly got rid of the evidence, except for messing up when swapping that card. Note how he never urges Apollo to present anything. Apollo is told to explain his *reason*. Had he figured out the reason the card was swapped, he could have easily done that without the card. And Nick probably thought that's what Apollo was gonna do. He probably is counting on Apollo just pointing out that the card was probably swapped because of a blood stain-

...Then, suddenly, Apollo presents the stained card.

And Nick must feel like: (What, how...WHEN, WHY?! Where did the kid-...?!)

And that's when it comes to him:
He has seen enough of Apollo so far to tell that he's not a bluffer, not somebody who rely to trickery. Heck, he doesn't even use Nick's own courtroom tactics, despite apparently being a fan of him. So there's only one possibility: History is repeating itself. Someone snuck forged evidence into Apollo's Court Report.

Nick doesn't show it (bluffing at works, people), but he feels like panicking. The kid is in danger. If anybody figures out, he'll suffer the same fate as Nick himself and Nick knows, Apollo doesn't deserve this. Not so early, not when he's innocent.

Add to that, he probably knows who the only person who could have forged that card would be. The only person with quick acess to cards and fil blood, who is desparate enough to protect Nick to do that.

So, what does Nick do?

Quote:
Phoenix:
Oh, that card?
It's mine.

Phoenix:
That is, I picked it up at the
Borscht Bowl Club that night
after the murder had occurred.

Phoenix:
I gave it to my daughter.
Cards are her stock and trade,
after all.


This way, Nick puts the entire blame on himself. He takes it off Apollo and Trucy, by saying he was the one who originally had it. This way, he protects both of them.

Think about it, what sense would there have been in giving the card to Trucy to give it to Apollo in first place, if it would have been much easier (and less risky for both of them), to just hand Apollo the card himself, in court? Nick is lying here. For the first time in the trial. He's not standing in the witness stand, so it's not even perjury, but he's lying, in order to protect Trucy and Apollo.

He's not entirely sure yet that Trucy is involved, but he mentions her, just to be sure. If it turns out Apollo didn't get the card from her, it's still easy to claim she most have lost it somewhere. This way, the blame still remains on Nick. He doesn't care what happens to him if they figure out. He already has one forgery he didn't commit on his record, he'd rather have another one there than to lose Trucy or get Apollo into trouble.

So, after the trial, Nick talks to Apollo. And the moment Apollo tells him he met his daughter, Nick knows his theory was right.
And he knows, nobody must ever find out that Trucy forged the card. Least of all Apollo. He's probably already suspecting that they are siblings by this point, and he doesn't want Trucy, who has little of any family left in this world, to be hated by what might just be her only remaining blood relative. He wants them to have a chance to become friends.

So he, again, takes the blame, lies and claims he forged the card, before Apollo can even go and get any ideas that it might have been Trucy.

Apollo deserves to know that the card was fake. Especially so he learns never to just accept evidence from anywhere again, without doublechecking. Phoenix is trying to educate and protect Apollo here. At the same time, however, he's also protecting Trucy. It was her "Naughty Magician's Trick"... But Apollo should never know that. It's better if he doesn't, at least not until he knows Trucy well enough to tell that she's a good person.

And it's better if Apollo hates him (Nick himself had to learn that sometimes you need to be a bit disillusioned to make the right decisions, after all), than if he hates Trucy. I am rather certain, in fact, that he was actively working to make Apollo despise him. Why? Because he needed Apollo to quit being a Phoenix Wright Fanboy. Nick knew that Apollo would never find his own style and own path if he just continued worshipping Phoenix. So Nick had to get this out of the boy's system anyway. He didn't mean to be so harsh about it, but this way, he struck two flies with one swing: Apollo learns some valuable lessons, and also, he will stop his senseless hero worship of "Defense Attorney Phoenix Wright". And also, Trucy is safe.


"Phoenix:
I'm... not qualified to stand
in a court of law, I'm afraid."


Maybe he's not talking about his morals here, but rather, geniuely thinks he couldn't handle it. Not right now. And I think I know a reason, and that reason, again, is Trucy. Not only does she have a tendency to sacrifice legality over legitimity, she's also currently still deeply tangled in the heirloom issues of the Gramayres. She does, to an extent, need protection. He's her father. Maybe he feels it's his responsibility to get her issues sorted first, so she will be save and facing towards a bright future, before he can focus on his own life and ambitions again.
The world of the Gramayres is one of intruiges and betrayal and lies. One where everyone has to keep hidden trump cards to prevail. Not unlike the situation of the Feys. Mia actually distanced herself from the Fey Clan to become a lawyer. And we all know that it eventually got so bad with the Feys that Maya actually wanted to give up on her heirloom and quit. Nick doesn't wish a resignment like that on Trucy. So he's standing by her in this mess, getting tangled into it himself... and acting exactly like everyone else who is tangled in it, so he can support her better. Just like Mia had to go on distance from the Feys to become a lawyer, Nick can't be one as long as he is so closely involved in the Gramayre affairs.
As long as he is still tangled in this mess, he has to resort to trickery and even ocassional lies. In that state, not only wouldn't he want Apollo to trust him, he also wouldn't trust himself in court, I assume. So he isn't sure yet if he can go back. Not before everything is settled. (This even strengthens my believe that Trucy is somehow tangled into Nick's reason for returning to the courts in GS5...)

This is all just theorizing, of course, but it seems more logical to me than the explanation that Nick has simply gone off the criminal edge. I doubt he forged the Ace himself. I really do. It's not just against his character, but also makes little sense in the logic of the case itself. It has been officially admitted that a lot of plotpoints of GS4 weren't written out completly by Takumi in his rush to finish the script, and I think this was one of them. It adds to Trucy's personality, especially the personality she was designed to have.


Did you know that, according to the official artbook, Trucy's hairstyle was designed assymetrical for the very purpose of showing that she has two sides, an open-hearted, cute side and a mysterious, serious side? This never showed too much in the game, but I think this would have been part of it: Serious!Trucy who is not above using forgery to reach her goals, as selfless as they might be. After all, it was her who pulled the Mr. Hat stunt in Turnabout Corner too...

:minuki:
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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This... makes a lot of sense. *_* New headcanon accepted.
Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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I've never thought about it that way. But it stuck me as odd that Wright thought of using the sake dirty trick that got him disbarred...
Nice theory you presented, Neni!! :minuki:
Did somebody say "MURDERS"??
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A part of me thinks you're putting way too much thought into this.

Quote:
The "Message" makes it seem like Trucy had been sent by Nick, but, really? Nick was in police costudy at the time. He'd have had no opportunity to give Trucy the card and the message without being spotted.


Not really, after all, Nick called Kristoph after the murder happened to tell him that he should be his lawyer, if he was to be accused of having killed Shadi. And what about the standardized one phone call people get in jail? Granted, it's never really mentioned if it is so in the AA Universe... but Phoenix could've called Trucy. At the very least to let her know that her daddy is in jail.

Quote:
[..] she also is a stage preformer and thus surely has easy access to things like film-blood.


I'm a cosmetician and I could get my hands on film-blood. Just saying. Doesn't prove much. And as you said, she wears gloves, she wouldn't need to resort to film-blood. Also, what I know from film-blood and used it during my training, film-blood doesn't dry properly - that bloodstain would've still been very easy to smear or rub off.

I don't think I ever thought much about the card or who forged it. Of course I was wondering what kind of idiot just rolls with whatever evidence a complete stranger shoves into his face right before or during a trial. (It made sense to happen to Phoenix in 4-4, because he's a well-trusting .... airhead, I guess is a nice term .... but Apollo struck me, even in the first case, as somebody who wouldn't be so easily swayed just by being given something) But wether Phoenix or Trucy did it... actually, who cares?
Forging evidence when you are in the legal profession is a pretty heavy crime. But if you are a common civillian who forges something (and you're not really the one who brought it into the court), then the pay isn't very high. Either you have to pay money or you get a warning... urgh, I'm in too much pain right now to remember the proper terms.

C-A
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Quote:
Quote:
The "Message" makes it seem like Trucy had been sent by Nick, but, really? Nick was in police costudy at the time. He'd have had no opportunity to give Trucy the card and the message without being spotted.


Not really, after all, Nick called Kristoph after the murder happened to tell him that he should be his lawyer, if he was to be accused of having killed Shadi. And what about the standardized one phone call people get in jail? Granted, it's never really mentioned if it is so in the AA Universe... but Phoenix could've called Trucy. At the very least to let her know that her daddy is in jail.


Unless teleportation was invented yet, that does not give him a chance to hand her a (literally) bloody card.

Also, I kinda doubt that Nick would convey such sensitive information over the phone. That's what got Mia killed, remember?

Quote:
But wether Phoenix or Trucy did it... actually, who cares?
Forging evidence when you are in the legal profession is a pretty heavy crime. But if you are a common civillian who forges something (and you're not really the one who brought it into the court), then the pay isn't very high. Either you have to pay money or you get a warning... urgh, I'm in too much pain right now to remember the proper terms.

C-A


He'd have cared for the same reason he never pleaded "Justified Self Defense" for any of his clients: It's not the punishment that matters as much as the simple shame and unjustified guilt you will have to live with. Do you think that Trucy would ever again we treated as a normal citizen if she became known as "The girl who tried to protect a murderer by forging evidence?" Do you think anyone would care how good her Magic is if that's the thing she became first known for?

Vera's case is different, because she never really understood what she was doing. It was her "art", which takes the blame off her and puts it on her father - who is dead now. And I think Nick would have been ready to do the same, take the blame, of necessary even into the grave, just she'd be able to have a good life.
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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It's true there was probably no opportunity for Phoenix to see Trucy to GIVE her the forged card (even if he had made it himself, isn't he under security the whole time?) but that's just another one of their plotholes.

We can only assume the game intends us to think Phoenix forged the card, with Trucy's collaboration.
eg. Phoenix gave her the card OR
Phoenix told her to forge a bloody ace from elsewhere (therefore feels he's effectively responsible anyway)
etc.
Because that's what Phoenix says.

Whether Takumi originally intended something else is possible, but you could say that about anything in any of the games, and there is no evidence whatsoever, so what ends up being in the final cut is really all that counts. It's vague enough that you could probably believe that head canon if you really, really wanted to, but the game really does be trying to suggest Phoenix was primarily responsible/masterminding, not Trucy acting autonomously in her decision to forge a blooded ace.

You'd think there'd be no opportunity for Phoenix to tell Trucy about forging an ace either, he'd be allowed to contact her but surely they'd listen in on his phone calls? It could be communicated in a cryptic manner but is still a strange thing to get across. But I bet they just didn't think about logistics and just decide by default 'the police are always incompetent for sake of convenience.' It taxes my suspension of disbelief less than a disbarred single hobo being allowed to adopt Trucy in the first place when he was suspiciously linked to her father's disappearance/trial, the magical planet alignments of Misham just happening to lick the stamp in time for Phoenix's inexplicable heading of the jury test trial etc.

Quote:
Phoenix:
I'm... not qualified to stand
in a court of law, I'm afraid.

That just refers to the fact he doesn't have a lawyer badge now. You say 'but we already know that'. WE know that. This is case 1. They have to repeat it a million times for all the people who skim through the writing. Also at this point we just heard vague rumours about him quitting after forging evidence, not the whole story about the Bar Association etc.. It's pretty much the Edgeworth scenario, and Edgeworth just had a Great Revival a year later, so we have to hear it from Phoenix's own mouth he can't because he has no lawyer badge (and possibly isn't allowed to take the Bar Exam?) As for the stuff after, well, Phoenix isn't a lawyer, so he isn't trying to be, that option isn't open to him so he has no recourse but to 'underhand actions' while his name is mud.

Quote:
Do you think that Trucy would ever again we treated as a normal citizen if she became known as "The girl who tried to protect a murderer by forging evidence?" Do you think anyone would care how good her Magic is if that's the thing she became first known for?

I actually doubt it'd leak to the general public. It's not like she was the one on trial. Few people would know or care. It's clear Phoenix is taking responsibility of the card off both Trucy and Apollo when he says 'That's MINE,' but that's the type of person he is. He'll take sole blame from all involved, but that doesn't mean he wasn't still the one mostly responsible anyway.
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Ugggh too long arguments I don't want to understand because the answer seems simple.

He contacted Trucy at some point, any point possibly via phone and instructed her to put a drop of paint on a card. She could've been at the office full of props (likely to include cards considering both their professions) and told her to give it to the attorney at his trial. Hell he waited with the body post-calling the police could've placed the call there.
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
Hell he waited with the body post-calling the police could've placed the call there.

Wouldn't that have been shown as evidence at the trial?
So, no. Not unless he used a different phone... (which was never shown to exist)
However, he'd probably be allowed to call Trucy while he's in detention, but it SHOULD have been monitored.
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icer wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Hell he waited with the body post-calling the police could've placed the call there.

Wouldn't that have been shown as evidence at the trial?
So, no. Not unless he used a different phone... (which was never shown to exist)
However, he'd probably be allowed to call Trucy while he's in detention, but it SHOULD have been monitored.


Why? not all calls are recorded?

Here's how that conversation would've went down.

Police: Hey it says here you made another call after the police...
Phoenix: Yeah I had to call my daughter, it's just us so I had to let her know I'd be home later than usual.

That's also half true as well.
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Icer, I don't quite understand you here. Your arguementation seems to support my theory, but you keep laughing it off as unlikely coincidences. Your aruguementation boils down to "The theory makes sense but is absolutely not true because it wasn't spoon-fed to us." This really baffles me. Just because something isn't mentioned in Canon, it doesn't mean it didn't possibly happen. Going by that logic, Phoenix Wright randomly spawned out of thin air and never had any parents.

None of your arguementation really went against what I said, did it? Rather, a lot of it seemed to complement my theory. I get the feeling you are trying to tell me "Yes, this would make sense, but is surely not intended, because GS4 is a bad game and it's impossible that there's a good story hidden in there". This doesn't sit right with me, excuse me.

We KNOW that a lot of things were cut from GS4 because of how it was rushed out. Takumi even outright admitted to forgetting to write certain parts and explanations, because of the time pressure he was under. And also, we play the game for Apollo's point of view most of the time! If Trucy forged the Ace, how was he ever supposed to find out, huh? You think she'd one day come out and go "SURPRISE! IT WAS ACTUALLY ME!! AHAHA!" for no reason?! The game would have needed something to do that which it never had to beginn with, a cause of most of the problems with it, and that's time to develope it's characters. And I think the ending is enough of a hint to tell that there was originally supposed to be a LOT of more developement with Trucy.
Your arguement is "Because Phoenix says so". Are you just ignoring the fact that Phoenix lied a LOT to Apollo in this game? If you take his word for definite and infallible, then I kinda really am interested in know how you personally define "canon". It's definitely not how I define it... When a character who has a habbit of being dishonest to another character tells them something, I usually don't consider that "Canon"...

As for "I am not qualified to stand in a court of law", no, he explicitely wasn't refering to his lack of a badge. The game made that very clear, since he goes on to explain Apollo how his morals are no longer fit that of an attorney. Yes, I did my research before writting this theory, I studied the script thoroughly.

As for "This would not be leaked", I beg to differ. Turnabout Trump was a big thing, what with a former star attorney who was disbarred for forgery being on trial for murder. If his daughter would commit forgery as well now, the media would fall over that like a pack of hungry wolves. Misty Fey was a freakin' Spirit Medium, and just being hired by the police and it leaking to the media was enough to ruin her. I don't think I am unerestimating the situation here.

Since nothing of what you said refuted my theory even in the least, and I don't think Shuu Takumi himself would have written Phoenix that out of character, I am still pretty sure that Trucy being the forger was the original intent. Thank you very much.
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Neni wrote:
Icer, I don't quite understand you here. Your arguementation seems to support my theory, but you keep laughing it off as unlikely coincidences. Your aruguementation boils down to "The theory makes sense but is absolutely not true because it wasn't spoon-fed to us." This really baffles me. Just because something isn't mentioned in Canon, it doesn't mean it didn't possibly happen. Going by that logic, Phoenix Wright randomly spawned out of thin air and never had any parents.

None of your arguementation really went against what I said, did it? Rather, a lot of it seemed to complement my theory. I get the feeling you are trying to tell me "Yes, this would make sense, but is surely not intended, because GS4 is a bad game and it's impossible that there's a good story hidden in there". This doesn't sit right with me, excuse me.

We KNOW that a lot of things were cut from GS4 because of how it was rushed out. Takumi even outright admitted to forgetting to write certain parts and explanations, because of the time pressure he was under. And also, we play the game for Apollo's point of view most of the time! If Trucy forged the Ace, how was he ever supposed to find out, huh? You think she'd one day come out and go "SURPRISE! IT WAS ACTUALLY ME!! AHAHA!" for no reason?! The game would have needed something to do that which it never had to beginn with, a cause of most of the problems with it, and that's time to develope it's characters. And I think the ending is enough of a hint to tell that there was originally supposed to be a LOT of more developement with Trucy.
Your arguement is "Because Phoenix says so". Are you just ignoring the fact that Phoenix lied a LOT to Apollo in this game? If you take his word for definite and infallible, then I kinda really am interested in know how you personally define "canon". It's definitely not how I define it... When a character who has a habbit of being dishonest to another character tells them something, I usually don't consider that "Canon"...

As for "I am not qualified to stand in a court of law", no, he explicitely wasn't refering to his lack of a badge. The game made that very clear, since he goes on to explain Apollo how his morals are no longer fit that of an attorney. Yes, I did my research before writting this theory, I studied the script thoroughly.

As for "This would not be leaked", I beg to differ. Turnabout Trump was a big thing, what with a former star attorney who was disbarred for forgery being on trial for murder. If his daughter would commit forgery as well now, the media would fall over that like a pack of hungry wolves. Misty Fey was a freakin' Spirit Medium, and just being hired by the police and it leaking to the media was enough to ruin her. I don't think I am unerestimating the situation here.

Since nothing of what you said refuted my theory even in the least, and I don't think Shuu Takumi himself would have written Phoenix that out of character, I am still pretty sure that Trucy being the forger was the original intent. Thank you very much.



*raises hand*

Any opinion on my simple explanation Neni?
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:


*raises hand*

Any opinion on my simple explanation Neni?


Again, it's been proven several times before that Ace Attorney phones are ridiculously easy to wiretap and conversations apparently are recorded automatically and take a while to erase. The police might have found the conversation when they arrived and checked Nick's phone. Would he have risked that? I don't think so. I doubt Nick would have called Trucy and given those instructions via phone. Especially because he'd not have wanted to endanger her. Phoenix is NOT a horrible father. He's very protective of Trucy, asking her to forge evidence does not fit into his behaviour towards her for the entire rest of the game.
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Neni wrote:
Pierre wrote:


*raises hand*

Any opinion on my simple explanation Neni?


Again, it's been proven several times before that Ace Attorney phones are ridiculously easy to wiretap and conversations apparently are recorded automatically and take a while to erase. The police might have found the conversation when they arrived and checked Nick's phone. Would he have risked that? I don't think so. I doubt Nick would have called Trucy and given those instructions via phone. Especially because he'd not have wanted to endanger her. Phoenix is NOT a horrible father. He's very protective of Trucy, asking her to forge evidence does not fit into his behaviour towards her for the entire rest of the game.



Sorry but I'd like to see this proof that conversations are recorded automatically. Just because recorded messages have been used before is no indication they all are. Indeed there's plenty of calls we've heard that haven't been brought up later as some kinda message.

Occams Razor: The simplest solution is most often the correct one.

I'd understand why a call to the police might be recorded (on the police's side) for training and observation purposes but no reason to automatically record a phone call.

I'll also cite precedence of Nick bringing Trucy into potentially dangerous situations before. He had her sit in on specifically 'big' games of Poker. I'm not saying he's a bad dad but he knows Trucy is a tough kid and can handle a bit of responsibility for important matters. Especially when we consider Trucy was already participating in potentially criminal behaviour before, such as helping her father escape arrest via a magic trick. Putting a small penmark or blob of paint on a card is hardly above her hell if anyone ever asked about this he could say that's all he asked her to do (besides give it to Apollo) and she'd be left ignorant with only Phoenix aware of the card's significance as forged evidence.
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Pierre wrote:
Why? not all calls are recorded?

Yes, you are correct. It 'feels like' they're all recorded, but 'historically' some haven't been or the user deletes them or something....the fact we see all the recorded ones and remember them gives unnatural weight in our minds.
I'd imagine a record of call is made on the phone though.
The police would be SUSPICIOUS that their 'murderer' made another call though, but they might not bother raising the issue in the prosecution. (Payne?) Who cares if it's to their kid? They can still be instructing the kid to assist them in further underhand activities.
(But they're a 'kid'? Well, of course they might unwittingly obey their murderous father!)
So we just have to assume 'police incompetence' yet again.
Like Neni said, it does sound risky, so I would not automatically assume this 'decision' by Phoenix. But despite this, perhaps it's still the most plausible explanation of the ones available.

Neni wrote:
None of your arguementation really went against what I said, did it? Rather, a lot of it seemed to complement my theory. I get the feeling you are trying to tell me "Yes, this would make sense, but is surely not intended, because GS4 is a bad game and it's impossible that there's a good story hidden in there". This doesn't sit right with me, excuse me.


Did I actually write any of that? Of course not! But from somewhere or other you pull out that assumption/accusation. So how do I misread that and your final paragraph? 'If you don't agree with me 100% that I have indeed unlocked the unwritten original intentions of Takumi, then it's only because of your evil, unwritten ulterior motives, not because you have anything valid to say.' Oh, ouch. So why do you post your hypothesis, if you don't want any kind of feedback to refine it?I mean, you're seemingly displeased by the fact I'm not disagreeing with most of your ideas? :coffee:

It's an interesting idea, but I think you've taken it too far. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position reads like this to me:
I take a plothole
I claim this is because of Takumi's script/characterisation being butchered (which is likely true)
-> but I THEN extrapolate an explanation which conflicts with the actual game writing ('writes around it')
-I take this as my headcanon (which is fine in this case, as headcanons always take a liberal approach to vague parts of the game and can even contradict them on small points while still being a reasonable reading of the game - as this is, it might even improve the game)
-> But I then extrapolate this to claiming Takumi's ACTUAL INTENT was the same as MY HEADCANON. Not 'maybe'. WAS. And it just got changed later by other writers or something. (A kind of conspiracy theory)

Quote:
"The theory makes sense but is absolutely not true because it wasn't spoon-fed to us."

No. It's plausible, but evidence (aka the words of the actual game) suggests the writers were actively trying to imply something different.

Also, even if it was his original intent, it isn't that way now, so why do you seemingly claim it's 'canon'/the 'real story'/etc? There are infinite scenarios. Maybe Takumi was 'encouraged' to change it, and he agreed? Is 'Phoenix was the forger' still not his 'intent' because he later edited his own work? It was not Takumi's original intent to even have Phoenix in GS4 as well, a fact actually proven (unlike this) by his statements in interviews. So does that render Phoenix's entire appearance 'non-canon'? If I said it did, you'd jump up and lynch me - and that's something Takumi actually stated. We have no evidence whatsoever of what TAKUMI actually intended in this case, none.
-'MAYBE Takumi originally intended Trucy to forge the card autonomously and Phoenix just covered' is valid as a POSSIBILITY given the inconsistencies
-'Takumi originally intended Trucy to forge the card autonomously and Phoenix just covered (Phoenix is 'just lying' where the game contradicts this)' isn't supportable.

If you want to write your own version 'Neni's Director's Cut' of GS4 which clears up the plotholes within reasonable extrapolation of the games' vaguer contents, go right ahead. But insinuating it's actually you knowing the mind of Takumi's intentions 'before his script was (butchered)' is just not a supportable claim. That's the main problem with your position here.

Quote:
Your arguement is "Because Phoenix says so". Are you just ignoring the fact that Phoenix lied a LOT to Apollo in this game? If you take his word for definite and infallible, then I kinda really am interested in know how you personally define "canon".

Writers: Oh okay Trucy forged the ace. How will we tell the player this?
Oh by having Phoenix outright SAY HE did it!

Of course Phoenix lies in the game, but the point is that when he does you (if not the characters) actually find out later in the story that it must be lies. Apart from this, you can't really come up with a hypothesis that the *writers intended* you to think Phoenix was lying at parts where his words were not later exposed as lies. The default would be that Phoenix isn't lying, unless proven otherwise, in terms of them writing the script. That's what the writers think the player believes, at least from a 'good side' char like Phoenix.

Quote:
'When a character who has a habbit of being dishonest to another character tells them something, I usually don't consider that "Canon"...'

Otherwise where do you draw the line? Just assume line X by Person Y is a lie even when not shown to be whenever we want? That's not how these things are written. Or do you assume every single thing Phoenix ever said in the game could be a lie?

Quote:
it seems more logical to me than the explanation that Nick has simply gone off the criminal edge. I doubt he forged the Ace himself. I really do. It's not just against his character, but also makes little sense in the logic of the case itself.

Well you said it not me. Why was it written? Shock factor, foreshadowing, etc....
It was written for symbolics (contrast to Flashback trial). I get the idea it was from the Phoenix HAS TO DO THIS FOR OUR PLOT not 'What Would Phoenix Do' end though.

Personally I *can* buy it given how disenfranchised and disempowered Phoenix must have felt in that situation, rather better than I can the 'Flashback Trial'. His logic/motives to 'justify' questionable acts could have included things like:

"everyone thinks I'm a forger anyway (so why does it matter?)'
'Kristoph is the reason I was disbarred' ('this is a special case')
'it's only fitting/'fair' to ruin him with forged evidence the way he unfairly did me'
'I don't have access to legal methods any more ('I have no choice')'
Very important - 'my life is on the line' (also Orly's) so I'll go to extremes in my direct self defense I wouldn't otherwise
'It's Unfair anyway that I'm disbarred, so it doesn't matter, the world is 'rigged against me unfairly' so I'm just 'compensating' for this injustice'

Of course Phoenix would still have misgivings despite these flimsy 'justifications', as the punching scene seems to suggest. (And I don't know about the JP version, but his 'naughty card trick' line sounds like a guilty child rather than a Gant-esque criminal)
As previously mentioned, civilians giving out 'forged evidence' is a rather different crime to lawyers presenting it. Phoenix's greater crime, I feel, is setting APOLLO up with it, (with knowing the potential consequences) not introducing forged evidence to the court in the first place. (That's the kind of behaviour which makes me feel him a bitter, exploitative jerk.)

Quote:
As for "I am not qualified to stand in a court of law", no, he explicitely wasn't refering to his lack of a badge. The game made that very clear, since he goes on to explain Apollo how his morals are no longer fit that of an attorney. Yes, I did my research before writting this theory, I studied the script thoroughly.


So that's that same old argument about whether Phoenix is/considers himself too 'corrupted' now to ever be a lawyer again or not. (And technically GS5 doesn't 'resolve it' because the fact of different writers and it clearly being a marketing decision means it has no bearing on GS4 intentions..) Yes I also read the script that follows (as you so kindly posted up there) and that is indeed my reading of it - he can engage in that forging behaviour because he isn't an attorney, so isn't held within their standards any more, he's just a civilian. His 'verdict was already handed down 7 years ago' - I read this as he's already accused of forgery, so why does it matter if he acts as previously charged as long as everyone thinks he's a forger anyway? He's accused and been paying for the crime whether or not he commits it. This is different to being 'too morally corrupted' - it's something that can be resolved once his name is cleared because all that deviant 'logic' of 'unfairness' warping his present judgment then no longer applies. Various other people read Phoenix in the game and here re: this issue in a similar manner to me.

Your reading is different. Certain other people also read the game in a similar manner re: Phoenix. He's too morally corrupt now and (some claim) ever after,to be a lawyer, and 'knows it',so even being allowed to take the bar exam/his name publicly cleared won't resolve it. So what is the resolution to that 'debate'? Who's 'right'? It's ambiguous, most likely deliberately so (along with Phoenix's credits comment on whether he'll be a lawyer again, or not.)
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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Quote:
Yes, you are correct. It 'feels like' they're all recorded, but 'historically' some haven't been or the user deletes them or something....the fact we see all the recorded ones and remember them gives unnatural weight in our minds.
I'd imagine a record of call is made on the phone though.
The police would be SUSPICIOUS that their 'murderer' made another call though, but they might not bother raising the issue in the prosecution. (Payne?) Who cares if it's to their kid? They can still be instructing the kid to assist them in further underhand activities.
(But they're a 'kid'? Well, of course they might unwittingly obey their murderous father!)
So we just have to assume 'police incompetence' yet again.
Like Neni said, it does sound risky, so I would not automatically assume this 'decision' by Phoenix. But despite this, perhaps it's still the most plausible explanation of the ones available.


I can live with this.
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First of all, I'd like to apologize, icer. I was... not in the best state of mind when I wrote the last post (long story, has nothing to do with this), so I kinda just felt the need to wildly vent and got overly defensive. I shouldn't have done that here, I apologize.

You're right, of course, the superficial implication of the game is that Phoenix forged the card. That will never change, unless they state something else in a later game (which is still possible, since Trucy is still playing a role, given they dedicated some time to her picture in the locket on TGS, but probably a bit unlikely). So yes, this will only stay a theory, no matter how likely it is. It is, however, in my opinion definitely an option that people, who don't want to stay on the obvious level of the interpretation of the plot and are trying to fill the plotholes with their mind (like me. ^^; ) could definitely take into consideration. I often find people agreeing with me that Trucy was likely meant to come across as much more morally grey than the game ultimately made her look, so this interpretation of the events would fit in well, if you support this sentiment.

What I definitely shouldn't have said is "It *was* the original intent". That was a big derp on my part, I apologize profoundly, I wasn't thinking straight at the time. What I meant to convey is that, especially on second playthrough, I often felt like there were a lot of untold stories that just didn't make the cut into the script. I suspect that this might have been one of them, seeing how the forged card is brought up once and then never again. It seemed like a case of "What happened to the Mouse"? To me. Turnabout Sucession felt short, even with the flashback, so I often wonder if the case wasn't meant to be much, much longer, especially considering how long Turnabout Trump was. That was my basic thought and reasoning behind why there might have been more to the Ace than the game showed. This will never change that what we were shown will ultimately always be all we know for sure. That is saddly very true.

We can speculate, though, and I want to speculate. GS4 is the game where I love speculating most, out of all AA games. It gives me a chance to fill up all the nasty plotholes the sad, sad developement history of the game in my mind. But we can't crossexamine the game, you know. Theories will stay theories. I'm aware of this. I just kinda wish we could know what the game was originally be meant to be like. Before everything went to hell. Takumi is a good author and we all know that. I am burning to know the story he meant to tell... :yuusaku:

icer wrote:
Yes, you are correct. It 'feels like' they're all recorded, but 'historically' some haven't been or the user deletes them or something....the fact we see all the recorded ones and remember them gives unnatural weight in our minds.
I'd imagine a record of call is made on the phone though.
The police would be SUSPICIOUS that their 'murderer' made another call though, but they might not bother raising the issue in the prosecution. (Payne?) Who cares if it's to their kid? They can still be instructing the kid to assist them in further underhand activities.
(But they're a 'kid'? Well, of course they might unwittingly obey their murderous father!)
So we just have to assume 'police incompetence' yet again.
Like Neni said, it does sound risky, so I would not automatically assume this 'decision' by Phoenix. But despite this, perhaps it's still the most plausible explanation of the ones available.


I'm not sure about that. In Turnabout sisters, Maya's dialouge, even in the japanese Version, makes it look like her phone recorded the call automatically, without her doing anything. I am not sure how japanese phones work in that regard, but it made me wonder if that's common in the AA Verse. I mean, why would she have recorded that Convo on purpose anyway? If Mia meant to *hide* the evidence, having recorded proof of where it is wouldn't have been an advantage...

Quote:
Did I actually write any of that? Of course not! But from somewhere or other you pull out that assumption/accusation. So how do I misread that and your final paragraph? 'If you don't agree with me 100% that I have indeed unlocked the unwritten original intentions of Takumi, then it's only because of your evil, unwritten ulterior motives, not because you have anything valid to say.' Oh, ouch. So why do you post your hypothesis, if you don't want any kind of feedback to refine it?I mean, you're seemingly displeased by the fact I'm not disagreeing with most of your ideas? :coffee:


Ehm... Yeah, I am sorry, really. Really, really sorry. We have a history of disagreeing with each other, so seeing how I was in a bad mood already in a time, I got very, very over-defensive and basically just wrote a whole post full of bullshit. I shouldn't have done that, I regret I did it, I won't deny I did it, and I will try to not do it again. Excuse me...

Quote:
No. It's plausible, but evidence (aka the words of the actual game) suggests the writers were actively trying to imply something different.

Also, even if it was his original intent, it isn't that way now, so why do you seemingly claim it's 'canon'/the 'real story'/etc? There are infinite scenarios. Maybe Takumi was 'encouraged' to change it, and he agreed? Is 'Phoenix was the forger' still not his 'intent' because he later edited his own work? It was not Takumi's original intent to even have Phoenix in GS4 as well, a fact actually proven (unlike this) by his statements in interviews. So does that render Phoenix's entire appearance 'non-canon'? If I said it did, you'd jump up and lynch me - and that's something Takumi actually stated. We have no evidence whatsoever of what TAKUMI actually intended in this case, none.
-'MAYBE Takumi originally intended Trucy to forge the card autonomously and Phoenix just covered' is valid as a POSSIBILITY given the inconsistencies
-'Takumi originally intended Trucy to forge the card autonomously and Phoenix just covered (Phoenix is 'just lying' where the game contradicts this)' isn't supportable.


That's all very true. I won't dispute it. All I could say about it, I said in the beginning of this post. I just find it sad that so much potential went to waste there, that is all. GS4 always felt to me like we were fed a really incomplete, misleading version of what could be a really great story, but again, you're right. What's not there can't be proven to have been there once, unless someone who witnessed it having been there explictely says so.
...I wanna meet Takumi and ask him one day. So baddly. :yogi:

Quote:
If you want to write your own version 'Neni's Director's Cut' of GS4 which clears up the plotholes within reasonable extrapolation of the games' vaguer contents, go right ahead. But insinuating it's actually you knowing the mind of Takumi's intentions 'before his script was (butchered)' is just not a supportable claim. That's the main problem with your position here.


This made me laugh uncomfortably, because, yeah. That's exactly what my bullshit post reads like in retrospect and maybe that's exactly what I ocassionally feel like, even when it's hard to admit. I tend to raise my interpretations on a too high podest... Which I really shouldn't do. I'm not the author, not of this. Getting defensive over things like this when I am in a bad mood is one of my worst habbits and I'm ashamed of it...

What's genuiely true though is, yeah. I actually considered before to write a Fanfic that basically is a rewrite of AJ minus all plotholes that can possibly be closed in some way that makes sense and plus some more focus on characters that aren't Phoenix. Thing is, I have too many ideas in my life and too little time to realize them. Working on one AA Fanfic that has grown way larger than it should have is enough. So I likely ever won't go anywhere, as much as I wish I could do it. I would love to pay those underused, underdeveloped characters the respect they deserve...

But even if I did, this will never change one simple fact: GS4 was not even remptely as good as it could have been. This is eternal. This is something that will never be correct. And maybe that's what depresses me so much about the whole matter.

Quote:
Otherwise where do you draw the line? Just assume line X by Person Y is a lie even when not shown to be whenever we want? That's not how these things are written. Or do you assume every single thing Phoenix ever said in the game could be a lie?


Awkward wording on my part. It's canon Phoenix said he did it, but with Characters like Phoenix, I usually go for a "reasonable doubt" approach. That's a habbit I gained from playing Kingdom Hearts, where characters constantly lie at each other and we later often figure out that facts presumed Canon were actually lies, misunderstandings or otherwise just meant to confuse the player.

So, basically, everything Phoenix said and did to Apollo in AJ, I see as Canon that he said and did it, but I consider the range in how far it is actually true as very bendable and dependable on ones interpretation. I think when I first played the game, I immediately had reservations about the Ace. I was convinced it would come up again later. Unfortunately, I was wrong. :sadshoe:

Quote:
Well you said it not me. Why was it written? Shock factor, foreshadowing, etc....
It was written for symbolics (contrast to Flashback trial). I get the idea it was from the Phoenix HAS TO DO THIS FOR OUR PLOT not 'What Would Phoenix Do' end though.

Personally I *can* buy it given how disenfranchised and disempowered Phoenix must have felt in that situation, rather better than I can the 'Flashback Trial'. His logic/motives to 'justify' questionable acts could have included things like:

"everyone thinks I'm a forger anyway (so why does it matter?)'
'Kristoph is the reason I was disbarred' ('this is a special case')
'it's only fitting/'fair' to ruin him with forged evidence the way he unfairly did me'
'I don't have access to legal methods any more ('I have no choice')'
Very important - 'my life is on the line' (also Orly's) so I'll go to extremes in my direct self defense I wouldn't otherwise
'It's Unfair anyway that I'm disbarred, so it doesn't matter, the world is 'rigged against me unfairly' so I'm just 'compensating' for this injustice'

Of course Phoenix would still have misgivings despite these flimsy 'justifications', as the punching scene seems to suggest. (And I don't know about the JP version, but his 'naughty card trick' line sounds like a guilty child rather than a Gant-esque criminal)
As previously mentioned, civilians giving out 'forged evidence' is a rather different crime to lawyers presenting it. Phoenix's greater crime, I feel, is setting APOLLO up with it, (with knowing the potential consequences) not introducing forged evidence to the court in the first place. (That's the kind of behaviour which makes me feel him a bitter, exploitative jerk.)


There are three points though that will always bug me about this and never make sense to me with this interpretation:

*) He'd not have used Trucy for this. People often ask why Nick never asked Maya to channel any of the victims. And I think the answer is quite simple: Because that's what cost her her mother. I don't think Nick would have used Trucy to commit the very same illegal action that cost her her father. It just makes no sense with his character. (I admit, the comparision to Maya's situation doesn't work entirely, due to the different circumstances, but I am not willing to believe Nick, who already knew at that point that Kristoph had abused Trucy to smuggle the fake page into his court record, would have done the same to her and Apollo. He may have gained a habit of lying over the years, but he's not cold and uncaring. It's the only thing in GS4 I truly consider "Out of Character" for him, even in context of only this single game. I will never bring myself to believe he actually did it himself. It breaks my Suspension of Disbelieve like a china plate.)

*) He was endangering Apollo with it too. If just one thing had gone wrong, Apollo would have been the next to hand in his badge. One misunderstanding, one refusal of the court to believe someone else forged the card, heck, imagine Kristoph had decided to merrily testify "Oh, yes, I saw him forge this in my office earlier~!". There was too much that could have gone wrong. Phoenix already had decided by this time that Apollo was this country's one hope to get the jury-system installed properly, due to his powers. Even if you claim he'd not have cared to risk the boy's career and social status (Which I will never be willing to believe), he'd also have risked losing the only Attorney of Gramayre descent. That would have at very least postponed his plan for two years (when Kokone, whose abilities would probably have enabled simmilar sucess, would return to Japan/America ... Actually that sounds like an interesting Fanfic, but definitely not one I'd write...)

*)Thirdly and most importantly, though: The bloody Ace wasn't really necessary to win the case. I know, people often tend to miss that, but I went through the entire case in my head and imagined how it would have played it had Apollo just *explained* why the card was missing, instead of presenting it. I came to the conclusion that yes, yes, he would STILL have won the trial. It was very possible by that point to prove that Kristoph did it, even without the card, had Apollo just come to the conclusion that blood must have been sprayed onto it at some point. The trial would have just been a bit longer. All Apollo would have needed to do was to ask the police to count the cards found at the crime scene. The Ace would have been entirely missing. Since the decks are professional decks and Olga could probably testify that the cards are being counted every night to make sure no games went awry (And removing an ace would not have helped Shadi cheating, so there would have been no reason to do it), somebody must have removed the Ace after they crime. Since Phoenix didn't leave the restaurant and the police did arrive rather quickly, he couldn't have disposed of the card, meaning a third person did it, meaning Kristoph's testimoney is wrong, meaning he was hiding something, meaning he did it. There! Case solved, without forgery! Easy!
Only someone who has no idea how Ace Attorney Trials tend to go would have panicked and thought the Ace would be absolutely necessary to win. Which is why I think it was Trucy. Which brings us back to the beginning.


Quote:
So that's that same old argument about whether Phoenix is/considers himself too 'corrupted' now to ever be a lawyer again or not. (And technically GS5 doesn't 'resolve it' because the fact of different writers and it clearly being a marketing decision means it has no bearing on GS4 intentions..)


Reading that made me very sad, you know that? >_>

Quote:
Yes I also read the script that follows (as you so kindly posted up there) and that is indeed my reading of it - he can engage in that forging behaviour because he isn't an attorney, so isn't held within their standards any more, he's just a civilian. His 'verdict was already handed down 7 years ago' - I read this as he's already accused of forgery, so why does it matter if he acts as previously charged as long as everyone thinks he's a forger anyway? He's accused and been paying for the crime whether or not he commits it. This is different to being 'too morally corrupted' - it's something that can be resolved once his name is cleared because all that deviant 'logic' of 'unfairness' warping his present judgment then no longer applies. Various other people read Phoenix in the game and here re: this issue in a similar manner to me.

Your reading is different. Certain other people also read the game in a similar manner re: Phoenix. He's too morally corrupt now and (some claim) ever after,to be a lawyer, and 'knows it',so even being allowed to take the bar exam/his name publicly cleared won't resolve it. So what is the resolution to that 'debate'? Who's 'right'? It's ambiguous, most likely deliberately so (along with Phoenix's credits comment on whether he'll be a lawyer again, or not.)


Hm, yeah. Both interpretations are valid. It's just... Except for the incident with the Ace, Phoenix never felt like he had gone all-out morally corrupt to me in GS4. It starts at the very first case. Like,

"HE LOOKS LIKE A HOMELESS BUM-- Oh, wait he has a job."
"OMG HE GAMBLES--- Oh, it's just chips and not money, never mind."
"GAHH HE DRINKS--- What, Grape Juice? Oh, OK."

Everything we learned in this case makes it feel to me like the game was trying to say "Phoenix might look like has gone off the deep edge on first glance, but he really didn't. He's still the same person inside. Don't let the outward appearance deceive you." In fact, that's a theme that goes through the entire game: Trucy is outwardly a little girl who has no idea of the world (Her "sugar-sugar-whiped cream"-speech patern in the japanese version just reinforces that), but is actually smart and morally grey enough to manipulate trials with her tricks (Turnabout Corner). Klavier is outwardly shallow and a cliched, too-cool-for-life J-Rocker, but actually has a short fuse when it comes to certain things and is very serious about his law-work. Kristoph is outwardly a nice, calm, law-abiding citizen, but murders people for revenge in his spare time. Ema's outwardly become a bitter witch, but you just mention "Science" and she magically transforms back into her old self. Almost every character in the game had an "Inward" and an "Outward" Self, even though the concept was under-explored and I definitely got the same vibe from Phoenix... That's how I always interpreted it.

Basically, that's all I wanna say: GS4 had tons of plotholes. Way more than it should have. The thing is, I think those plotholes can be filled, if you want to fill them and I wanted to offer others an possibility of how to fill the plothole regarding the Ace reasonable. It's true, there's not definite proof it was like this. *If* the script was supposed to be like this at some point in the developement (And yeah, it's true, only "If"), then that still doesn't change the fact it's not there in the current script. But also, the script doesn't make it impossible that this is what really happened. It's vague enough to allow for this interpretation. So I wanted to offer it to people who, like me, don't want to believe Shuu Takumi would have broken his own character like this entirely on purpose.

It's just a good feeling to have an explanation for something that is horribly depressing because it doesn't make any sense, you see.
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I'm not sure about that. In Turnabout sisters, Maya's dialouge, even in the japanese Version, makes it look like her phone recorded the call automatically, without her doing anything. I am not sure how japanese phones work in that regard, but it made me wonder if that's common in the AA Verse. I mean, why would she have recorded that Convo on purpose anyway? If Mia meant to *hide* the evidence, having recorded proof of where it is wouldn't have been an advantage...


To hear her estranged sister's voice again?
The recorded call from 1-2 contained details of a meetup time, she could have saved it to remind herself of the time to meet up.

Either way one phone does not set a standard for the entire series and there is no evidence that Phoenix's phone operates the same way in AA4. He simply called Trucy and had her make the card, perhaps leaving her ignorant to the card's purpose, perhaps not and telling her not to tell the police but either way considering how you say he was locked down it's the only possible solution.
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Pierre wrote:
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I'm not sure about that. In Turnabout sisters, Maya's dialouge, even in the japanese Version, makes it look like her phone recorded the call automatically, without her doing anything. I am not sure how japanese phones work in that regard, but it made me wonder if that's common in the AA Verse. I mean, why would she have recorded that Convo on purpose anyway? If Mia meant to *hide* the evidence, having recorded proof of where it is wouldn't have been an advantage...


To hear her estranged sister's voice again?
The recorded call from 1-2 contained details of a meetup time, she could have saved it to remind herself of the time to meet up.

Either way one phone does not set a standard for the entire series and there is no evidence that Phoenix's phone operates the same way in AA4. He simply called Trucy and had her make the card, perhaps leaving her ignorant to the card's purpose, perhaps not and telling her not to tell the police but either way considering how you say he was locked down it's the only possible solution.



You mean, either that or my theory is true. There is still nothing that directly contradicts it, remember that. If Phoenix really made Trucy do all that and did it per phone, that makes him almost as much of a douche as Zak... No. Just no.

And no, I doubt Maya recorded the conversation on purpose. She outright said "I forgot to delete it".
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Neni wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure about that. In Turnabout sisters, Maya's dialouge, even in the japanese Version, makes it look like her phone recorded the call automatically, without her doing anything. I am not sure how japanese phones work in that regard, but it made me wonder if that's common in the AA Verse. I mean, why would she have recorded that Convo on purpose anyway? If Mia meant to *hide* the evidence, having recorded proof of where it is wouldn't have been an advantage...


To hear her estranged sister's voice again?
The recorded call from 1-2 contained details of a meetup time, she could have saved it to remind herself of the time to meet up.

Either way one phone does not set a standard for the entire series and there is no evidence that Phoenix's phone operates the same way in AA4. He simply called Trucy and had her make the card, perhaps leaving her ignorant to the card's purpose, perhaps not and telling her not to tell the police but either way considering how you say he was locked down it's the only possible solution.



You mean, either that or my theory is true. There is still nothing that directly contradicts it, remember that. If Phoenix really made Trucy do all that and did it per phone, that makes him almost as much of a douche as Zak... No. Just no.

And no, I doubt Maya recorded the conversation on purpose. She outright said "I forgot to delete it".


*hides "I love Zak" t-shirt*

Well like I said he did involve her in 'big' poker games potentially with people who might not take too kindly to cheating and Trucy had already been involved in equally dubious behaviour before with Zak but I'm repeating myself.
Though sure if Maya was using it as a memory aid she should have deleted it when she arrived but forget but eh anyways no indication all phones do that automatically.

Welp I'm happy with my theory, guess I'll skedaddle.
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Misty Fey was a freakin' Spirit Medium, and just being hired by the police and it leaking to the media was enough to ruin her.


That just happened because a fat blob of idiotism couldn't keep his mouth stuffed in the presence of his ex-lover blackmailer. If Grossberg had kept his mouth closed, Redd wouldn't have known about the police hiring a medium and then failing to summon, uh, not failing to summon ... shit-I-don't-remember-the-game-keeps-changing-the-story the victim. Hence the info wouldn't have been leaked, Misty would've remained in Kurain, Mia would've taken some other job to not fight with Maya over the next Master position, although I'm sure the other family members of the Fey clan except Miss Miraculously Hard To Kill Maya would've died eventually, in manners similar to the canon timeline.

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Neni wrote:
First of all, I'd like to apologize, icer.


Thanks for your apology and sorry I didn't reply before now, I've been really busy :/

Quote:
There are three points though that will always bug me about this and never make sense to me with this interpretation:

*) He'd not have used Trucy for this. People often ask why Nick never asked Maya to channel any of the victims. And I think the answer is quite simple: Because that's what cost her her mother. I don't think Nick would have used Trucy to commit the very same illegal action that cost her her father.


I think the writers just simply didn't bother considering how tactless to Trucy this would make Phoenix look. They just decided to have the wonderful idea of foreshadowing/ironically-symbolically repeating the 'FlashBack Trial'. They didn't worry about the small detail consequences.

I'm not sure Maya-Misty is a direct parallel because for starters, if Maya could just channel the victim there'd be no game. Another argument is there's no point. Misty wasn't just ruined. The ghost 'lied' so therefore it's not even evidence.(And the matter than nothing bad really happened to Trucy and her reputation as a consequence of passing on Kristoph's evidence. Zak was going to disappear anyway, he didn't think Phoenix would get a not guilty he just intended to have him bluff long enough for him to escape after day 1.)
And Phoenix isn't exactly ethical with Trucy, he does let her help him cheat at poker....

But mostly, as I said I think they just didn't think about that angle, they just decided the case 4-1 should foreshadow the flashback incident, so simply didn't think about whether it might be bad taste for Trucy to have to repeat it and how this issue makes Phoenix look.The fact this case was almost certainly written first, (it was, wasn't it the demo?) and 4-4 cobbled together later does however point to the POSSIBILITY 4-1 was later 'edited' to better mesh with 4-4 'flashback trial' as a coherent overarching narrative. For all we know Takumi never wrote anyone forging a card and it was added in later at the behest of the producer or otherwise.... your argument supports that possibility just as much as it does Trucy.
Quote:
*) He was endangering Apollo with it too.

Shock, shock. Why is Phoenix acting like this? More foreshadowing the Flashback. They didn't bother to care if it made Phoenix look like a jerk. It makes us go 'Why is Phoenix acting like a jerk?" (or was supposed to, I assume.)
They didn't really think about the long term consequences. ('They' aren't necessarily Takumi, as I said. They probably went 'Let's foreshadow the Flashback trial! Force characters to comply!')
Quote:
Even if you claim he'd not have cared to risk the boy's career and social status (Which I will never be willing to believe), he'd also have risked losing the only Attorney of Gramayre descent. That would have at very least postponed his plan for two years (when Kokone, whose abilities would probably have enabled simmilar sucess, would return to Japan/America ...

I'm sorry, but it really seems to be a kind of fanon that Phoenix was obsessing over Juries for years beforehand. I'm 90% sure, I remember I looked at this more carefully when I was going to write a fanfic, and was pretty taken aback at how vague the actual game was. There's no real evidence Phoenix was even thinking about juries before 4-4 and 4-3 (4-3 the 'secret mission' we assume is to do with the juries, but it's not confirmed.) (Kokone of course 'didn't exist' for purposes of GS4, so deciding Phoenix was 'thinking of her' 'retrospectively' is also dodgy territory, but it doesn't really affect the argument..) Furthermore, it was only luck the stamp was licked that day and THAT case was even the one used as the jury trial. (Which really pushes my suspension of disbelief. But there was no way Phoenix planned in advance anything much. If that didn't happen, some other generic case may have been the jury trial that day? Who knows.)

And there's a sad fact: Phoenix does not seem to trust Apollo, not until 4-4. Evidenced by the fact he tells him basically nothing.

So the fact Phoenix decided when he first saw Apollo that 'he was/has to use him in the Jury Plot' is just filling in a gap in the game. It's not 'wrong' persay, but the game is just too vague on this. Phoenix saw the bracelet and investigated Apollo for the sake of Trucy as he was clearly a relative. For Trucy's sake. He saw him of use to get off the death penalty and get Kristoph locked up. It wasn't till 4-4 there's any actual evidence Phoenix planned to use Apollo for the jury trial or that Phoenix himself was anticipating/heading a jury trial either. 'Maybe' he was, but the game doesn't prove it. So it can't really be used as a pre-supposition to negate other canonic parts of the game.

I expect GS5 to ret-con parts of this time with who knows what (not necessarily juries), but it doesn't really affect GS4's own intents anyway.

Quote:
*)Thirdly and most importantly, though: The bloody Ace wasn't really necessary to win the case. Only someone who has no idea how Ace Attorney Trials tend to go would have panicked and thought the Ace would be absolutely necessary to win.

Um, although the ace not even being necessary in the game seems more like, um, writing limitations', I think it's unreasonable to think Phoenix would be able to pre-empt an ENTIRE TRIAL in his head with 100% accuracy especially when he's running on pure fight-or-flight adrenalin. The guy knows his life is on the line and he's going to be on trial for murder. Who cares if it's not the first time, imagine what state of mind you must be in then?
So if Phoenix really forged/had the card forged before the trial even started, I don't see this as a factor. He's pre-empting the worst. Maybe he's not thinking of Apollo's feelings. Well, he probably can't at that time, it's possible they (or the fact he'll have to 'use' an attorney) don't even cross his mind. It must be bad enough to obsess over playing out the 'possible trial' in his mind to convict Kristoph, on the spur of the moment. If he can't, basically he's dead, (or maybe Orly will be, but Phoenix would still blame himself.)

I still think it was... cheap of the writers to do this seemly to foreshadow 4-4 or whatever the rationale is though. Phoenix using Apollo this way is unethical AND PHOENIX IS AWARE.
So maybe Phoenix has a low opinion of Apollo? Some dumb rookie who's blind enough to be Kristoph's student? It's like, wake up. Phoenix is bitter and jealous. It reminds him of what he lost. From Kristoph no less. - that's the assumption I can extrapolate from this and other parts of the game. He's more likely initially contacting him on Trucy's behalf (as he's clearly some kind of relative) rather than Apollo's.
I know some people like to think about happy families with that game but I'm afraid that was never the vibe I got between Phoenix<>Apollo.

Quote:
Except for the incident with the Ace, Phoenix never felt like he had gone all-out morally corrupt to me in GS4....
Everything we learned in this case makes it feel to me like the game was trying to say "Phoenix might look like has gone off the deep edge on first glance, but he really didn't. He's still the same person inside. Don't let the outward appearance deceive you." In fact, that's a theme that goes through the entire game:


Yes, I also noticed this myself about the game, its theme is all 'Superficial Appearances are deceiving illusions.' Perfect Kristoph with his nail polish vs the unshaven hobo. Etc.
I also think the intention at some level was we the players are a symbolic jury, and it's Phoenix on trial in our minds. Hence his apparent criminal ambiguity.

I have another idea why they might have wrote it. If the card forging didn't happen, would anyone EVER have entertained the idea Phoenix might have 'forged' the evidence '7 years ago'? If Phoenix is on trial by 'jury' (the players) and maybe it's supposed to be more of a shock/suspense he didn't or something...(The writers' logic? Quick write in more reason to doubt Phoenix so it's actually suspenseful!?)

One other thing I'd change about your 'hypothesis' .... it stil seems weird for Phoenix to automatically ASSUME Trucy forged the card not Apollo, if Phoenix had no part in the entire card-evidence forgery. Just because Apollo doesn't 'seem' like a forger, the guy is still KRISTOPH's student. Maybe Kristoph taught him some of his 'tactics'? Your hypothesis here is that Phoenix will mistrust his own daughter while 100% trusting Kristoph's own student, who he's never even spoken to before today, when a 'mystery crime' happens. True, maybe Trucy would do something like that, but it's yet another assumption 'Phoenix must make'.

Quote:
You mean, either that or my theory is true.

Also I wouldn't be claiming these kinds of false dichotomies. Clearly there are always other POSSIBLE explanations than these two, even if less likely, so it just makes your argument look weaker overall......
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...
...icer, I think I finally figured out why we keep butting heads. What that... "quality" is that your posts have to it that keeps pushing me over the edge and just really, really frustrates me. ^^;

It's not what you say - seriously, even if I get very defensive over my own opinions when someone tries to talk me out of them, I still love hearing other people's interpretations and opinions, since I think it's a great way of furthering my own understanding of something and expand on my own interpretations - it's *how* you say it. You have a... tendency to sort of paint your opinions and interpretations as "facts". That's something that just causes me to itch and get a bit angry. I am a bit of a hypocrite though, because I, myself, am not immune to using such arguementative techniques, as my Bullshit-Post earlier demonstrated so nicely. However, the thing is... You do it a lot, I think it'd not be wrong to say you do it a lot more than me. You only rarely insert little phrases like "This is just my personal interpretation, but..." or "I personally think, that...", you tend to say things that in the end mean nothing more than "Your interpretation is nice but mine is obviously more true" and when you end up agreeing with something your dialouge partner says, you only rarely say "Yes, this is true", but are more likely to dodge that specific point from then on, only mentioning for a bit that you might agree with it. It's not just when you discuss things with me. I've been reading your posts ever since I first came into the fandom and I'm not the only person you've had heated discussions with, and it's just really a pity, because if you'd discuss more flexibly, it'd be surely a lot more fun discussing things with you, because a lot of your interpretations are very interesting and even very, very smart. It's just that the way you write them down give your posts a pretentious air... even more than mine. ^^; And that's saying something, because I have horrible temper and self-control and even when I don't mean to come off as painting myself "superior", I still do it a lot. Probably even right now, even if I really don't mean to. I know my posts tend to sound very pretentious, but I'm trying to work on tonning that down. I think we both need to work on it... We just clash horribly for this very reason, and the more defensive you get, the more defensive I get. It's kind of a vicious cycle

I'm not trying to make myself look better than you here, I just found it necessary to say this before I go on, in order to stop this from derailing the discussion any further. So, long story short, I am totally OK with you have different interpretations and I'd never ask you to give up on them! The only thing that really, really makes my blood boil is the way you formulate them, because it makes me feel like you were forcing me (and everyone else, for that matter), to give up on our believe in our own interpretations and accept yours as a lot more valid, which just is a very bad way of discussing a matter with someone who has an opposing opinion. I try to insert tons of disclaimers in the vain of "This is what I believe, but not what you have to believe" into my theories nowadays for a reason, you know. ^^; It doesn't necessarily improve my discussing style a lot, but at least makes me sound less aggresive (to an extent), which makes it easier to stay calmer... Given, when I get heated I get very head in terms of pretentiousness and baseless self-validation, but that's why I don't want a reason to get heated in the first place, you know...

OK, before I move on, I want you to consider the following things:

*) GS4 is the AA game I replayed the second most times (The GS1 being the one I replayed the most.)

*) I AM an overthinker (Which I don't consider a bad thing) and have a penchant for character analysis, so, yes, I think I know the script pretty well, but yes, I also interprete a lot. I just enjoy Media a lot more when I interprete them and read inbetween the lines when I consume them.

*) My interpretation is also influenced by the fact that I am currently playing GS4 in the japanese original version, meaning a lot of what I refer to might come from how the characters are portrayed in the original and that nuance might have been lost in translation. I will try though, to keep that apart from my own interpretations, even though that *can* be hard, since Japanese is a very interpretative language, so the line can blurr.

*) I have not once in my life accepted a plot-hole as "just being a plot-hole" without trying to solve it.



Aaaaaand, I think the last point is where we have our great conflict point.
You see, I was never trying to "prove" anything with this theory. There's nothing that CAN be proven. This is not court, we cannot crossexamine the GS dev staff and we have no tangible evidence. That was never the point.
I wanted to give a *possibility*.
The problem is, you keep arguing like I, in fact, had been trying to *prove* my theory, rather than just giving an interpretation of the situation. Therefore, a lot of your arguementation boils down to "You thought about this too much; it's just a plothole, there's no need to think about it."
Of course it is a plothole, but that is the point! I am trying to find possible ways of how that plothole could be solved in-Universe and to find explanations as to why that plothole is there in first place.

That's why you running "It's just plotholes, don't think about it." arguement drove me up the wall all the time, you know? Because the plothole is the very reason I wrote this. Of course, I got defensive at times and tried to prove the possibility in a way that made it look like I wanted to prove the theory itself, but that's just because I'm a bit short-tempered.

What I, however, don't agree with is your "The writers didn't care" attitude. Even if Takumi had Co-Writers for GS4 (The japanese manual lists some, which explains some things for me...), he still had the final call on the scenario. He still could have said "No, this is too OoC, we cannot do this, leave it out." Icer, you're a writer yourself, aren't you? And so am I. Don't you believe that if you create a character lovingly and build them up and then someone writes something that goes completly against your ideas of what is plausible for the character and it's going to be made Canon forever, that you'd not veto it? Everyone would veto it. That's the the assumption he'd just have left it pass doesn't sit right with me. Takumi led a blog during GS4's developement, and even if I can read out of his entries that he wasn't as enthusiastic about GS4 as he was about the first three games, he still really loved it and the characters and the story. He wouldn't just have *not cared*, you know. He's a writer, and a good one too. The idea that he'd not care about what's done to his characters is pretty unbelievable for me...

OK, moving on.



icer wrote:
I think the writers just simply didn't bother considering how tactless to Trucy this would make Phoenix look. They just decided to have the wonderful idea of foreshadowing/ironically-symbolically repeating the 'FlashBack Trial'. They didn't worry about the small detail consequences.

I'm not sure Maya-Misty is a direct parallel because for starters, if Maya could just channel the victim there'd be no game. Another argument is there's no point. Misty wasn't just ruined. The ghost 'lied' so therefore it's not even evidence.(And the matter than nothing bad really happened to Trucy and her reputation as a consequence of passing on Kristoph's evidence. Zak was going to disappear anyway, he didn't think Phoenix would get a not guilty he just intended to have him bluff long enough for him to escape after day 1.)


I just spoke about this before, but the entire first paragraph sounds a bit like you were trying to convince me this is exactly what happens, which made me already feel quite itchy when I first read it. ^^; You don't know more than me. We can both just make assumptions.
But... yeah, again, Takumi had the final call, even with the Co-Writers. I cannot see this man just going all like "Oh, staying in Character? Doesn't matter. Yeah, just throw that in!"
It's a possibility you list here, but one that is so unlikely to me, I seriously don't think I could ever honestly consider it. Sorry. ^^;

My point still stands, I think. Trucy was written as a character who "Initiates" a lot. She's barely ever passive, she has a lot of control over Nick's life and over Apollo too and she rarely ever leaves anything up to coincidence (Which fits with her Magician-Persona). The possibility that she was meant to be indicated as the forger at some point in developement is still very real. It's true that the first case was written first, however, it's also the longest first case in the main series, which is pretty notable for the game with the shortest last case. I have the suspicion that Turnabout Sucession was supposed to go back and bring the matter of the Forged Ace up again, but that entire part was never written or cut due to the time pressure. I mean, most people agree that Turnabout Sucession was a trainwreck, and for me, it just smelt of an unfinished, unfinished case. The Ace, as it is, is a giant BLAM, you know: Comes up once, makes you go WTF, never mentioned again. This is very uncharacteristical for the Ace Attorney games and Takumi's writting in general. I really, really wouldn't be surprised if it was supposed to come up again in the last case, with some surprise revelations about it. That's where this entire theory comes from...

As for the "Zak was going to disappear anyway" thing, I am willing to argue otherwise, using game quotes, but not today, since I am kinda time pressed.

And yes, maya's situation isn't an exact parallel, I said so myself. ^^; I just wanted to talk about Nick's behaviour.



Quote:
And Phoenix isn't exactly ethical with Trucy, he does let her help him cheat at poker....


Ah, that old thing. A common arguement, that people tend to name as "evidence" for Nick not caring about Trucy. ^^; ...Allow me to talk about this for a bit.

Have you ever seen the (good, if not ocassionally exegeratted) movie "Rainman"?

Long story, short, at a late point in the movie, the protagonists, two brothers, one of which is an Autistic Savant who can count cards accurately like a computer, go to Los Angeles and gamble themselves rich and stupid. Because of Raymond's talent, they win every game without fail. At the end of the trip, the owner of the casino throws them out and they are both banned from Vegas forever- however, they face no legal consequences. Why? Because what they did was not technically illegal or even "cheating". Sure, they got themselves a VERY unfair advantage, but they didn't manipulate the game directly, they didn't manipulate the cards, didn't use mirrors to look into their opponents cards or anything like that. Their only "prop" is Raymond's brain and that's something every player has- except, only Raymond has the unfair advantage of being able to count and calculate in fragments of seconds and having the memory of an elephant. But that's just that: An advantage, not cheating. Just like a person who was born with better assets for physical developement will always have an unfair advantage in sports over people who have not and need to train harder to get to the same level.

The situation is even "milder" with Trucy and Nick, since Trucy's not even counting the cards, she's literally just reading the movements and "vibe" her father's opponent gives off. Every poker player does this to an extent, it's just that Trucy is really, really good at it. It's not cheating, unless the game was specifically supposed to be one-on-one without any co-counceling whatsoever, in which case Trucy'd not be there in first place. In fact, the game never really states that Trucy helping Nick was even a secret. For all we know, the guests might have even been aware they were facing a team, not a single person. And again, Trucy and Nick aren't cheating, just using her natural talents. Sure, they are *unfair* talents, but that was the whole challenge, right? "Defeat the guy who obviously has an unfair advantage over you". I mean, after 7 years, everyone should have know that the guy obviously can somehow break bluffs, even if they did not know (somehow, I really can't see how nobody would have noticed that) that it was his daughter who did the bluff-breaking for him. In other words, Nick wasn't doing anything his guests didn't expect. He just played his roll as "The undefeatable Poker Player". To top it off, they weren't even playing for money, so, what the heck? If it really was a secret, the worst that could have happened if it comes out would be a headline called "Genius Poker Player actually 15 years old girl!" and if anything, Trucy'd have profitted from that, not suffered. It's an entirely different situation from Ace, which was a genuine illegal action. In fact, the only person who ever calls it "cheating", is Apollo, who, if his behaviour towards Klavier is any indication, has a personal beef against people who somehow get themselves an unfair advantage, no matter if legitimate or not, because he's just a sucker for everything being "Fair and Square". (Which is why he, unlike Nick, never really uses bluffs in his trials, if you pay close attention.)

Of course, this still doesn't get the "He was using Trucy" issue out of the way, but... May I go back to my previous arguement? That Trucy is an "initiator", and not a passive character in the least? Trucy takes control of Nick's life the moment she steps into his office, it's her who renames and redecorates it and her who calls herself the "CEO", once she's done. At one point Nick explicitely says he can't remember how he started playing Poker in that restaurant. Now, again, this is just my personal interpretation, but I also found it very likely that it was Trucy who got him into it in first place. In that case, it'd not be him using her, but her who came up with the whole "I'll just sit besides you and perceive your opponents"-system in first place. Again, Trucy always struck me as a character who would do that. Her "oblivious, little girl" behaviour has been shown to stand in contrast to her (individual, self-initiated) actions several times.

I will never claim I can prove this, but it seems so much more likely and logical to me and is just a much more satisfying explanation than "It's just a plothole, the writers were lazy." And so far, you really haven't shown me anything that really shows the theory is impossible or even unlikely.



Quote:
Shock, shock. Why is Phoenix acting like this? More foreshadowing the Flashback. They didn't bother to care if it made Phoenix look like a jerk. It makes us go 'Why is Phoenix acting like a jerk?" (or was supposed to, I assume.)
They didn't really think about the long term consequences. ('They' aren't necessarily Takumi, as I said. They probably went 'Let's foreshadow the Flashback trial! Force characters to comply!')


Spoken about this before, it's your interpretation, and that's fine, but my interpretation is different and just as valid. Please don't use it as a way to "debunk" my theory when it's just that; your interpretation. There is just as little of a way to prove this is what happened as there is a way to prove that what I think happened happened. You can critically *argue* against my theory that way (And it'd be a really nice arguement, I'm sure), but not *debunk* it.

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I'm sorry, but it really seems to be a kind of fanon that Phoenix was obsessing over Juries for years beforehand.


OK, here I can use an actual fact to argue. I am sorry, but this isn't Fanon, it's Canon. If I weren't in Japanese class right now (what a bad student I am) I'd search the exact quote from the script, but Nick directly mentions at one point that he has been working on the Jurist system for years. Not necessarily for 7 years, but given what a huge thing it was, it were at least 3 or 4, I'd say. Aditionally, as unrealistic as the Ace Attorney games are, introducing a new iudical system takes years. So yeah, I am sorry, but this is the one spot where you got the facts wrong. ^^; I should get to the spot where he says it in the Japanese Version soon... I'll take a screenshoot for you, if you want.

Quote:
(4-3 the 'secret mission' we assume is to do with the juries, but it's not confirmed.)


It is confirmed. There was a dialouge which went pretty much:

Nick: Jury trials.
Trucy: Ah, your secret mission!
Nick: Exactly.

Again, I'd search the exact quote, but... me is a bad girl who posts in class... on her tiny notebook which laggs and dies if I open more than one tab at a time... >_>

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(Kokone of course 'didn't exist' for purposes of GS4, so deciding Phoenix was 'thinking of her' 'retrospectively' is also dodgy territory, but it doesn't really affect the argument..)


I tried to think from an In-Universe, wholistic perspective, which is why I mentioned her, but you are right, she doesn't alter the arguement.

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Furthermore, it was only luck the stamp was licked that day and THAT case was even the one used as the jury trial. (Which really pushes my suspension of disbelief. But there was no way Phoenix planned in advance anything much. If that didn't happen, some other generic case may have been the jury trial that day? Who knows.)


My guess that this is a misinterpretation, a common one, but still: I think that probably the Jury System was in planning for years, BUT they lacked a trial to test it on. As soon as the Misham trial happened, Nick took his chance and pretty much went "This! Let's try it on this, this, this!" Nick has probably wanted to test the system on a generic case at first, just like you suggested. It's just that Misham happened to lick the stamp before something like that could happen, so Nick realized that this is his chance (And he probably didn't mind having a chance to save Vera, too) and used this trial as the test-trial. Since he also had the tons of evidence he had gathered against Kristoph too, he included that as well. It seems like an easily solved puzzle to me. This doesn't solve the question of where the Mason system came from... And yeah, that's one plothole even I don't really want to touch too much. Epileptic trees grow where that thing mentioned... >_>

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And there's a sad fact: Phoenix does not seem to trust Apollo, not until 4-4. Evidenced by the fact he tells him basically nothing.


Ouch. Why did you have to use the word "fact" here, in a place, that is so obvious about interpretation?

It's fine if you interprete Nick's behaviour as distrust. I'm sure other people do that too. But me and yet some other people don't. There's other, more positive ways and equally valid ways to interprete it. It's not a *fact*.

My interpretation was always that Nick tried to keep Apollo as uninvolved as possible with all things "Jury System" and "7 years ago" on purpose for two reasons. Reason one, he wanted Apollo to form his own opinions, develope on his own style, and generally just be uninfluenced. It'd take ages to explain my exact reasoning behind why he'd want this, but remember, Nick didn't have a mentor for most of his career and Mia was usually more cryptic than useful herself. Maybe he wanted to emulate what Mia did to him for Apollo, rather than babying him. The second reason why I think Nick kept Apollo in the dark: He just didn't know how to talk about it all without seeming self-defensive and maybe even insane. He needed Apollo to make own experiences before he can tell him the truth. Nick may seem "cool" in GS4, but his inner monologue reveals he really isn't. He might just have been really not sure how to tell Apollo without coming off like a liar, so instead he just dodged he subject until he could properly show him the whole picture.

I could say more about it here, but I am running out of time... X'D


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So the fact Phoenix decided when he first saw Apollo that 'he was/has to use him in the Jury Plot' is just filling in a gap in the game. It's not 'wrong' persay, but the game is just too vague on this. Phoenix saw the bracelet and investigated Apollo for the sake of Trucy as he was clearly a relative. For Trucy's sake. He saw him of use to get off the death penalty and get Kristoph locked up. It wasn't till 4-4 there's any actual evidence Phoenix planned to use Apollo for the jury trial or that Phoenix himself was anticipating/heading a jury trial either. 'Maybe' he was, but the game doesn't prove it. So it can't really be used as a pre-supposition to negate other canonic parts of the game.


Ah... here you go again calling your individual interpretation "Canon". That hurts me everytime I see it, because there'd be such a good discussion in there. ^^;

It's mentioned in the game that Nick needed Apollo. He outright told Apollo at at least 2 points (one in the first case, when he tells Apollo about his power) that he needs "his power"... given, that might have sounded different in the translation. I need to go back and check both scripts, but I am fairly sure.
Of course, how he was trying to do it before he knew Apollo existed is everyone's guess. Maybe he wanted to just pair Trucy off with someone to do it initially. We can't know. But yes, Nick did state that he needed Apollo's powers to prove Kristoph's deeds, even with the Jury trials. Because without being able to read his true emotions, breaking Kristoph's facade of serenity would have been too hard.

Of course, if one insists that Nick also was hungry for revenge against Kristoph, beating him with his own protege... twice... was probably a very nice bonus. X'D

GS4 *is* incredibly vague, but that doesn't mean we have no right to interprete the vague parts. Conversely, I take it as very much of an invitation to interprete and that's the one thing I love GS4 for, even if the reason you can interprete so much is such a bad, bad thing. X'D I guess everything has its good and bad sides...

[quoe]I expect GS5 to ret-con parts of this time with who knows what (not necessarily juries), but it doesn't really affect GS4's own intents anyway.[/quote]

GS5 doesn't need to "retcon" anything, because GS4 was vague in first place. A vague thing cannot/doesn't need to be "retconned", only explained and made more precise. And, again, I argue that it is very possible to fill most plotholes (...except the Mason system, maybe) very well and logically, if you just try.

Quote:
Um, although the ace not even being necessary in the game seems more like, um, writing limitations', I think it's unreasonable to think Phoenix would be able to pre-empt an ENTIRE TRIAL in his head with 100% accuracy especially when he's running on pure fight-or-flight adrenalin. The guy knows his life is on the line and he's going to be on trial for murder. Who cares if it's not the first time, imagine what state of mind you must be in then?
So if Phoenix really forged/had the card forged before the trial even started, I don't see this as a factor. He's pre-empting the worst. Maybe he's not thinking of Apollo's feelings. Well, he probably can't at that time, it's possible they (or the fact he'll have to 'use' an attorney) don't even cross his mind. It must be bad enough to obsess over playing out the 'possible trial' in his mind to convict Kristoph, on the spur of the moment. If he can't, basically he's dead, (or maybe Orly will be, but Phoenix would still blame himself.)


This is very possible, but again, this is your interpretation, not any more legit or less legit than mine. You cannot use it as "solid evidence" to "debuke" mine. You can only say "I personally like this interpretation better, because this and that doesn't sit right with me" and then we can peacefully discuss why each of us has different preferences there. That doesn't make either of us more "right", it just shows that we have different ideas of how to interprete this very vague game. And, who knows, we might find ourselves expanding our views and getting ideas we never thought of before when we discuss our views like this. That's part of the reason I post my theories online, you know.

Quote:
I still think it was... cheap of the writers to do this seemly to foreshadow 4-4 or whatever the rationale is though. Phoenix using Apollo this way is unethical AND PHOENIX IS AWARE.


Again, according to your interpretation, the writers were likely being cheap, but I have a different interpretation that explains that they likely weren't being "cheap", just rushed and had to cut a lot.

Does either of us know what really happened? No, we don't. So we have no right to claim we did. I don't and you don't. We're both somehow keep claiming we did, though.. Again, bad habbit, I am trying to get rid of it.

Quote:
So maybe Phoenix has a low opinion of Apollo? Some dumb rookie who's blind enough to be Kristoph's student? It's like, wake up. Phoenix is bitter and jealous. It reminds him of what he lost. From Kristoph no less. - that's the assumption I can extrapolate from this and other parts of the game. He's more likely initially contacting him on Trucy's behalf (as he's clearly some kind of relative) rather than Apollo's.
I know some people like to think about happy families with that game but I'm afraid that was never the vibe I got between Phoenix<>Apollo.


...Wow, you have a negative view of Nick and Apollo's interaction. I-I mean, you totally can, but, wow... We need to have a chat about that some time I am burning to know how someone can be so disillusioned by their relationship... (I am being serious, I am genuiely interested and want to know and discuss it with you! It *is* likely a valid interpretation, just totally not the one I got out of it, not even remotely!)



Quote:
One other thing I'd change about your 'hypothesis' .... it stil seems weird for Phoenix to automatically ASSUME Trucy forged the card not Apollo, if Phoenix had no part in the entire card-evidence forgery. Just because Apollo doesn't 'seem' like a forger, the guy is still KRISTOPH's student. Maybe Kristoph taught him some of his 'tactics'? Your hypothesis here is that Phoenix will mistrust his own daughter while 100% trusting Kristoph's own student, who he's never even spoken to before today, when a 'mystery crime' happens. True, maybe Trucy would do something like that, but it's yet another assumption 'Phoenix must make'.


OK, really running out of time here, so I will cut this short and say more later, but here just:

Yes, this could be a problem, but that's why I said he "he only knew for sure once APollo said he met Trucy."

Gah, I need to go, anyway, this is all for now, maybe I'll edit later, maybe not, see ya!!
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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It's not what you say - seriously, even if I get very defensive over my own opinions when someone tries to talk me out of them, I still love hearing other people's interpretations and opinions, since I think it's a great way of furthering my own understanding of something and expand on my own interpretations


Happens to me all the time, Neni.
People keep thinking I'm trying to pick a fight with them, when all I really want is to hear a nice, good argument about why that is their opinion or what makes up their opinion. Maybe it's because I write more assertive than I talk in real life... and people take it as being aggressive.

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It's not cheating, unless the game was specifically supposed to be one-on-one without any co-counceling whatsoever, in which case Trucy'd not be there in first place.


I'm more wondering why Trucy is in the backroom of a bad restaurant, late at night...
Although this makes me wonder, how did Trucy tell Phoenix what his opponent felt or didn't feel at each and every hand. Was that ever mentioned? Because it would make me suspicious if there's this small girl in the room, constantly staring at me and then talking to her daddy about "my eyes always straying to the right" or "my finger tapping the card".

C-A
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Interesting theory here. Does make a lot of sense, Phoenix handing Trucy a bloody card in jail would seem rather suspicious(although none of the guards seemed to have a problem with Matt Engarde bringing his own wrist/cell phone and using it to converse with an assassin frequently, so perhaps its just the entire police force which has fallen into disorder).

At any rate, it'd be rather interesting to find out what exactly was said between Phoenix and Trucy after that trial.

Quote:
Although this makes me wonder, how did Trucy tell Phoenix what his opponent felt or didn't feel at each and every hand. Was that ever mentioned?

My guess is there would be some sort of hand signals...either that or no one would ever believe that an eight year old girl could help someone win at Poker.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Interesting theory here. Does make a lot of sense, Phoenix handing Trucy a bloody card in jail would seem rather suspicious(although none of the guards seemed to have a problem with Matt Engarde bringing his own wrist/cell phone and using it to converse with an assassin frequently, so perhaps its just the entire police force which has fallen into disorder).

At any rate, it'd be rather interesting to find out what exactly was said between Phoenix and Trucy after that trial.

Quote:
Although this makes me wonder, how did Trucy tell Phoenix what his opponent felt or didn't feel at each and every hand. Was that ever mentioned?

My guess is there would be some sort of hand signals...either that or no one would ever believe that an eight year old girl could help someone win at Poker.



She could whisper.
He could legitimately explain that as a poor single father he felt more comfortable keeping Trucy by his side on late nights at work rather than home alone in the big city.


Also while I've already explained it elsewhere here Blargman it's perfectly possible he instructed Trucy to make the card while waiting for the police to arrive after he'd called them.
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She could whisper.

Seems like someone would catch on to that eventually. After losing five or so straight hands where a small girl whispers to her father every time, I think someone would eventually realize that something was going on.

Quote:
Also while I've already explained it elsewhere here Blargman it's perfectly possible he instructed Trucy to make the card while waiting for the police to arrive after he'd called them.

While I agree this is certainly within the realm of possibility, and I never ruled it out as a possibility, I find this slightly...unlikely.

Keep in mind he left the scene when Zak rendered Olga unconscious. If you'll recall Phoenix's testimony in the first case of AJ, after Zak knocked Olga out, Phoenix said "wait here, I'll get help," and presumably went off to contact an ambulance or the police force. When he came back, Zak was already dead.

He then left the scene again and called both the police to report the murder, and then Kristoph Gavin to request defense if it came to that, which it did. He then went back downstairs and placed Zak's hat back on his head.

One key thing to note here is that Phoenix would not have noticed that the ace was missing, and therefore there was a need to forge a card, until after he returned to the room for the second time(when Zak was dead). If he had called Trucy, he would have had to have gone back upstairs a third time, and spent a decent amount of time giving her specific instructions on what brand of card, what color the back was, what number it was, what suit it was, what exactly needed to be on the card, etc.

I go through all this to show how much time Phoenix would have to have spent between the time he first "went and got help," and when he would have been able to make that phone call(keep in mind he contacted some form of authority during his first trip upstairs).

Now, assuming the entirety of the AA world isn't completely incompetent, it's a safe bet to assume that whoever he called would have been on the scene within ten or so minutes. Add everything up, and for Phoenix to have given the instructions to Trucy before law enforcement arrived on the scene, he would have had to have returned downstairs from his first trip, noticed Zak was dead, gone back upstairs and called the police and Gavin, returned downstairs, put Zak's hat back on his head, gone back upstairs, and then called Trucy, all in the span of ten minutes.

Something that seems impossible for even a spiky haired ex-attorney.
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While I agree this is certainly within the realm of possibility, and I never ruled it out as a possibility, I find this slightly...unlikely.

Keep in mind he left the scene when Zak rendered Olga unconscious. If you'll recall Phoenix's testimony in the first case of AJ, after Zak knocked Olga out, Phoenix said "wait here, I'll get help," and presumably went off to contact an ambulance or the police force. When he came back, Zak was already dead.

He then left the scene again and called both the police to report the murder, and then Kristoph Gavin to request defense if it came to that, which it did. He then went back downstairs and placed Zak's hat back on his head.

One key thing to note here is that Phoenix would not have noticed that the ace was missing, and therefore there was a need to forge a card, until after he returned to the room for the second time(when Zak was dead). If he had called Trucy, he would have had to have gone back upstairs a third time, and spent a decent amount of time giving her specific instructions on what brand of card, what color the back was, what number it was, what suit it was, what exactly needed to be on the card, etc.

I go through all this to show how much time Phoenix would have to have spent between the time he first "went and got help," and when he would have been able to make that phone call(keep in mind he contacted some form of authority during his first trip upstairs).

Now, assuming the entirety of the AA world isn't completely incompetent, it's a safe bet to assume that whoever he called would have been on the scene within ten or so minutes. Add everything up, and for Phoenix to have given the instructions to Trucy before law enforcement arrived on the scene, he would have had to have returned downstairs from his first trip, noticed Zak was dead, gone back upstairs and called the police and Gavin, returned downstairs, put Zak's hat back on his head, gone back upstairs, and then called Trucy, all in the span of ten minutes.

Something that seems impossible for even a spiky haired ex-attorney.


We don't know anything about the location of the borscht bowl club relative to the police station or say traffic conditions so saying a flat 10 minutes is hardly fair plus the instructions are hardly detailed.

Trucy is a magician she's probably well acquainted with cards seeing as she can do tricks with them.
"Hey Trucy I need you to put a blot of red on the face of an Ace of Spades use one of the decks in my room, I'm in a spot of trouble give it to the spiky haired attorney"

Or some simple explanation. I assume since it's his profession he's got spare decks in his house or at least Trucy certainly has and uses a standardised poker deck as in no fancy backs.

Quote:
Seems like someone would catch on to that eventually. After losing five or so straight hands where a small girl whispers to her father every time, I think someone would eventually realize that something was going on.


Sure but Zak tried that very thing and couldn't accuse Phoenix of cheating. Besides all Trucy is really doing is reading body language and guessing whether he is bluffing or not which is totally valid in poker.
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Seems like someone would catch on to that eventually. After losing five or so straight hands where a small girl whispers to her father every time, I think someone would eventually realize that something was going on.


Sure but Zak tried that very thing and couldn't accuse Phoenix of cheating. Besides all Trucy is really doing is reading body language and guessing whether he is bluffing or not which is totally valid in poker.


I think we agree that Trucy reading the body language of people is not actually something that can really be called cheating. It's the fact that you suggested that she whispered to Phoenix constantly during poker games. That's something you obviously keep noticing, so eventually, somebody would've finally asked what the hell it was that this guy's kid was constantly whispering to him at every Call or Show of Hands.

The entire idea that Trucy somehow could converse this information to Phoenix without arousing suspicion is pretty hard to swallow. Even with handsignals or something, like her crossing her arms when the opponent bluffes or taking her hat off, etc, it would become obvious eventually. Add to that that every person has their own habits that are different, she'd need to think up a way to tell Phoenix what this person's habitual eye-blinking or whatever meant. What if it meant neither bluff, nor a good hand or whatever?

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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
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Seems like someone would catch on to that eventually. After losing five or so straight hands where a small girl whispers to her father every time, I think someone would eventually realize that something was going on.


Sure but Zak tried that very thing and couldn't accuse Phoenix of cheating. Besides all Trucy is really doing is reading body language and guessing whether he is bluffing or not which is totally valid in poker.


I think we agree that Trucy reading the body language of people is not actually something that can really be called cheating. It's the fact that you suggested that she whispered to Phoenix constantly during poker games. That's something you obviously keep noticing, so eventually, somebody would've finally asked what the hell it was that this guy's kid was constantly whispering to him at every Call or Show of Hands.

The entire idea that Trucy somehow could converse this information to Phoenix without arousing suspicion is pretty hard to swallow. Even with handsignals or something, like her crossing her arms when the opponent bluffes or taking her hat off, etc, it would become obvious eventually. Add to that that every person has their own habits that are different, she'd need to think up a way to tell Phoenix what this person's habitual eye-blinking or whatever meant. What if it meant neither bluff, nor a good hand or whatever?

C-A


Fair enough, though in actuality she probably only needs to indicate whether the opponent is bluffing or not, whether they are truely worried. In the end it comes down to true or false signals regarding her opponents emotions. A simple tug of his hoodie under the table or perhaps she had a drink at the table and she took a sip or something.

With simple true or false signals about the opponents emotions she could convey this information to Phoenix. Hell since Phoenix is also very good at reading people they could probably develop even more complex communications or something beyond my comprehension to get a very deep understanding of their opponent.


However we're getting off track I think considering the original topic.
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Quote:
We don't know anything about the location of the borscht bowl club relative to the police station or say traffic conditions so saying a flat 10 minutes is hardly fair plus the instructions are hardly detailed.

While this is true, the police unit in LA is one of the most responsive units in the country, so one would imagine they would be on the scene very quickly.

Quote:
Trucy is a magician she's probably well acquainted with cards seeing as she can do tricks with them.
"Hey Trucy I need you to put a blot of red on the face of an Ace of Spades use one of the decks in my room, I'm in a spot of trouble give it to the spiky haired attorney"

The issue with that is that Phoenix would have to have the exact same brand of cards, with the exact same kind of back, as kind used in the game.

Seems like it would be much more likely, that if Phoenix did instruct Trucy to make the fake, that he would have done so during his time in prison. The guards sure as hell don't care what's being said between attorney and defendant, as Engarde told Wright that he had hired an assassin and was blackmailing him and the guard didn't give a crap. I imagine it would be the same between daughter and defendant.
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While this is true, the police unit in LA is one of the most responsive units in the country, so one would imagine they would be on the scene very quickly.


Sure still this isn't real LA and if anything the police in AA have been shown to be lacking at times. Also the message would hardly take any time at all I still think he could easily have managed a call. After all it's not like a bust or anything so the police would wait for him to open the door anyway.

Quote:
The issue with that is that Phoenix would have to have the exact same brand of cards, with the exact same kind of back, as kind used in the game.


I think that's entirely reasonable. Trucy and Phoenix both need cards for their profession so Phoenix buys cards at a shop, buys an extra deck for Trucy from the same stock since it hardly matters about the back. Simply grabs two packs from the rack though I imagine he'd probably get more than just one each for the extra deck and spares.

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Seems like it would be much more likely, that if Phoenix did instruct Trucy to make the fake, that he would have done so during his time in prison. The guards sure as hell don't care what's being said between attorney and defendant, as Engarde told Wright that he had hired an assassin and was blackmailing him and the guard didn't give a crap. I imagine it would be the same between daughter and defendant.


Sure that's also perfectly possible, I kinda assumed there was some argument someone had said that he couldn't have had this conversation once in custody so I just worked around that though I believe visitors and Defendants are allowed private consultation in that room (probably partially because of law discussions) anyway which just makes this matter so much simpler.

Really don't know why the topic exists answer seems simple.
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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What a long post. I'm truly honoured, and I'll reply when I have time.
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The guards sure as hell don't care what's being said between attorney and defendant, as Engarde told Wright that he had hired an assassin and was blackmailing him and the guard didn't give a crap. I imagine it would be the same between daughter and defendant.


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While this is true, the police unit in LA is one of the most responsive units in the country, so one would imagine they would be on the scene very quickly.


Okay, so, on one side you believe that the police is a very fast reacting force. But also a pile of idiots who don't care when important stuff is going on 2 feet away from them .... that is objectionable. And contradictory.

As Pierre said, it wouldn't take much to fake the card.
I haven't played AJ in so long, was it ever specifically mentioned that the card that was missing was an Ace of Spades? And the back of the card doesn't matter that much - after all, Kristoph says that the two players used cards with blue backs. But the faked Ace has a red back.
This goes along the line that Kristoph put his foot in his mouth when he said Blue Cards and revealed himself, yet got completely flustered and horrified when somebody had a card with a red back. It still confirms my point that the back of the card didn't matter. After all, there was no blood on the BACK, so who cares?

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I haven't played AJ in so long, was it ever specifically mentioned that the card that was missing was an Ace of Spades?


Memory is fuzzy but I think you can plainly see it's the Ace of Spades even if it's not stated. It's called the 'Death Card' after all.
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I haven't played AJ in so long, was it ever specifically mentioned that the card that was missing was an Ace of Spades?

Now that you mention it...I think you're right. It's never actually shown through any of the flashbacks/testimonies. Olga never mentions which ace there was two of. There wouldn't be any real way to find out, either, since the ace was an extra card in the first place that wasn't part of the two original decks, and the card Kristoph swapped in was a random one from the blue deck.

Then again, Phoenix brings up an ace of spades, and he clearly would have known which card was the extra one at the time, so...

(Of course, if Trucy made the card and Phoenix didn't specify to her which ace it was, then yes, we might have no basis for belief here at all)

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This goes along the line that Kristoph put his foot in his mouth when he said Blue Cards and revealed himself, yet got completely flustered and horrified when somebody had a card with a red back. It still confirms my point that the back of the card didn't matter. After all, there was no blood on the BACK, so who cares?

I wasn't worried about what was on the back in terms of blood, I was more focused on the actual design of the card itself. If Olga brought those two decks of cards with her, it'd be a bit unreasonable to think that Phoenix would have had cards of that exact same brand and color with him at his house. As anyone who's played cards know, different companies design all sorts of different ensigns onto the backs of their cards, so coming up with a card that had the exact same design as the ones being used was my main point.
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I haven't played AJ in so long, was it ever specifically mentioned that the card that was missing was an Ace of Spades?

Now that you mention it...I think you're right. It's never actually shown through any of the flashbacks/testimonies. Olga never mentions which ace there was two of. There wouldn't be any real way to find out, either, since the ace was an extra card in the first place that wasn't part of the two original decks, and the card Kristoph swapped in was a random one from the blue deck.

Then again, Phoenix brings up an ace of spades, and he clearly would have known which card was the extra one at the time, so...

(Of course, if Trucy made the card and Phoenix didn't specify to her which ace it was, then yes, we might have no basis for belief here at all)


OK! First legitimate problem with my theory!

Seriously, thanks for pointing this out, this casts legitimate doubt on everything! Assuming the games don't have giant holo-screens showing the evidence to the gallery in great detail, it's true... Unless the card was outright called "Red-backed Ace of Spades" by someone at some point, Trucy could not have known it was a Spade by herself. This makes the theory somewhat less likely...

Hm... with this, I am willing to accept the "Nick asked her to do it" idea, though it still strikes me the wrong way...

I'd replay the case now and check the script again to make sure it wasn't mentioned that it's a spade at some point, but I am currently on a cruiser (long story) with horrifyingly expensive internet, so I should refrain from wasting too much time. ^^; This is probably the last post here you're gonna see from me till wednesday. Sorry.
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I wasn't worried about what was on the back in terms of blood, I was more focused on the actual design of the card itself. If Olga brought those two decks of cards with her, it'd be a bit unreasonable to think that Phoenix would have had cards of that exact same brand and color with him at his house. As anyone who's played cards know, different companies design all sorts of different ensigns onto the backs of their cards, so coming up with a card that had the exact same design as the ones being used was my main point.


Is it confirmed Olga brought the cards herself?

She'd only been working at the Borscht Bowl club a short while and Phoenix had been doing his poker games much longer. I presumed there would be standardised cards brought by Phoenix (seeing as he's the only guy who would need poker cards there) and the Borscht Bowl would reimburse him for the expenses.
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Okay, so, on one side you believe that the police is a very fast reacting force. But also a pile of idiots who don't care when important stuff is going on 2 feet away from them .... that is objectionable. And contradictory.

Of course it's objectionable/contradictory. It's Ace Attorney.

Keep in mind how quickly Detective Gumshoe arrived at the scene in both arrests(of Maya and Phoenix) in Turnabout Sisters. He was on the scene within minutes of the crime occurring(we know that Mia was killed shortly before Phoenix arrived because her body was still warm when he got there, and, of course, Gumshoe arrives only minutes after Redd White asks him too). The police are also fast enough to swarm De Killer's hideouts multiple times in 2-4, only avoiding capturing him because he beats them all up and gets away(albeit leaving pieces of evidence behind).

So while the police in this game seems to be an incredibly fast responding force, they are still completely incompetent at actually apprehending anyone.

Quote:
Is it confirmed Olga brought the cards herself?

She'd only been working at the Borscht Bowl club a short while and Phoenix had been doing his poker games much longer. I presumed there would be standardised cards brought by Phoenix (seeing as he's the only guy who would need poker cards there) and the Borscht Bowl would reimburse him for the expenses.

It's not confirmed, but I believe I have good reason for this assumption, and that is the card Olga planted on Phoenix.

Assuming the cards played with were Phoenix's, Olga would have had no idea as to the specific manufacturer/card design of the cards being used in the game. Therefore, when she went to plant the card on Phoenix, if she hadn't known, it would have likely been a completely different brand. Thus, when the trap to make Phoenix look like a fraud would be triggered, it wouldn't prove he was a cheat at all because he would have had an entirely different brand of cards in his pocket.

Also note that the card stuck in the bottle by Phoenix(the planted card) was of the exact same variety as the cards used in the game.

Quote:
Seriously, thanks for pointing this out, this casts legitimate doubt on everything! Assuming the games don't have giant holo-screens showing the evidence to the gallery in great detail, it's true... Unless the card was outright called "Red-backed Ace of Spades" by someone at some point, Trucy could not have known it was a Spade by herself. This makes the theory somewhat less likely...

As Klavier somewhat said:

"Tell me...it needs to be the ace of spades...why?"

Let's consider what we know about the case. As was pointed out, the only three people who lived through the incident of 4-1 and knew what the exact card was, was Phoenix, Olga, and Kristoph. At the point in the trial when the forged Ace of Spades was brought out, these three people were in the following positions:

(let's assume for the sake of argument that the actual extra card was, say, an Ace of Hearts)

Olga: Broken down by Apollo and keeping her mouth shut while hoping like crazy that she wouldn't be the one accused of murder.

Phoenix: Keeping silent about which suit the card was because he needed the evidence to convict Kristoph.

Kristoph: Unable to say anything about the suit of the card because, if he did, he would also be admitting that he was the one who swapped the cards.

So those are the only three people who knew about the suit of the card. None of them would be willing to say anything even if it had been the wrong suit for the reasons listed above.

In other words, it wouldn't have mattered if Trucy picked the wrong suit. So long as she knew the card was an ace, the court would have accepted it with no problems.
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It's not confirmed, but I believe I have good reason for this assumption, and that is the card Olga planted on Phoenix.

Assuming the cards played with were Phoenix's, Olga would have had no idea as to the specific manufacturer/card design of the cards being used in the game. Therefore, when she went to plant the card on Phoenix, if she hadn't known, it would have likely been a completely different brand. Thus, when the trap to make Phoenix look like a fraud would be triggered, it wouldn't prove he was a cheat at all because he would have had an entirely different brand of cards in his pocket.

Also note that the card stuck in the bottle by Phoenix(the planted card) was of the exact same variety as the cards used in the game.


Ok let's back up a second to what I said before. Phoenix is the reason they need cards so presumably he would buy them and the Borscht club would reimburse him (or not they do pay him after all). Therefore Phoenix bought the cards (read: the same back) for the Borscht club that Olga then used. While I understand some games may be pre-arranged Zak's wasn't so they must keep a deck on hand for surprise clients. Therefore there's no reason the card Olga planted from the deck wouldn't match any decks from Phoenix's place.
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For one, Gumshoe reacted to April May's call, not White's.

For another, wait, Klavier wasn't around in any part of 4-1, so why would he mention an "Ace of Spades"? Anyway, now I'm probably gonna replay Case 1, just to see if anybody mentions it being an Ace of Spades. I somehow have this dull recollection of an ace missing, but not specified .... but I could be wrong. I was too horrified by Phoenix' stubble and kinda blanked out when I first played.

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