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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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Your Quotes are mixed up and look massive as a result.

Fix them please.
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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I'm far too lazy at this point, and besides, we've expanded to having to deal with far too many sub points as it is. Let's just focus on what got quoted correctly, and if necessary, we can return to what wasn't.
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...Damn

I'm lost.
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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VCM wrote:
...Damn

I'm lost.


Hahaha you were following? XD
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Quote:
Hahaha you were following? XD

Think this guy deserves an award just for trying to keep up with all of this.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Quote:
Hahaha you were following? XD

Think this guy deserves an award just for trying to keep up with all of this.


Yeah, I saw the title and though "well, this should be interesting". I never saw the amount of replies on it. I gave up after, like, the 8th post or something.

I deserve the bronze award anyway, for climbing the first walls of text.
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Wow these theories are so deeply thought out.
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katharinetat wrote:
Wow these theories are so deeply thought out.


I'd say too deeply.
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icer wrote:
Neni wrote:
...
long post

What a long post. I'm truly honoured, and I'll reply when I have time.


Urk. How rude of me not to reply yet.
Anyway I did start writing a reply before I got derailed again... if I ever find where I put it :yogi:
However, it's not like you've been salivating in anticipation :hobohodo:
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Can we all recall the time when Phoenix forged Kristoph's letter too at the last case?

I'd love to join in the argument but in the middle of catching up on those comments my brain kind of packed its bags and went out on a long journey without me, I don't know when it will come back.
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soreveil wrote:
Can we all recall the time when Phoenix forged Kristoph's letter too at the last case?

I'd love to join in the argument but in the middle of catching up on those comments my brain kind of packed its bags and went out on a long journey without me, I don't know when it will come back.


I think it was stated that Phoenix was forging that letter.
Although I don't quite recall if they openly say it's a "forgery" or just a "copying down of what the original said".
The latter wouldn't really be labelled like a forgery.... it might go along the lines of "non-admissable to court" as nobody would know if the wording is identical to the one in the original.

And I agree, this whole debate started out fine, but then it just dragged on too long...

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
soreveil wrote:
Can we all recall the time when Phoenix forged Kristoph's letter too at the last case?

I'd love to join in the argument but in the middle of catching up on those comments my brain kind of packed its bags and went out on a long journey without me, I don't know when it will come back.


I think it was stated that Phoenix was forging that letter.
Although I don't quite recall if they openly say it's a "forgery" or just a "copying down of what the original said".
The latter wouldn't really be labelled like a forgery.... it might go along the lines of "non-admissable to court" as nobody would know if the wording is identical to the one in the original.

And I agree, this whole debate started out fine, but then it just dragged on too long...

C-A



Apollo says it's not a forgery, that it's a reproduction, so it was just Phoenix's exact copy of the letter (in his own handwriting). And, like you said, it is non-admissable, so Kristoph picked on this and told the Judge to dismiss the evidence, which he did.

As for the debate, it's dragged on like this because it's based on the characters' behaviour and other conjectures and circumstances that can be interpreted in a LOT of ways. That's basically "overthinking".
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icer wrote:
Urk. How rude of me not to reply yet.
Anyway I did start writing a reply before I got derailed again... if I ever find where I put it :yogi:
However, it's not like you've been salivating in anticipation :hobohodo:


In the meantime, I'll just mention the hypothesis that when Phoenix forged the card/got Trucy to forge it/whatever, he was envisaging making KRISTOPH present it in court, rather than Apollo....
'fitting'
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I don't really want to heat up this debate again, but I recently replayed Case 4-1 and paid attention to the whole Ace thing. In one of my previous posts, I said that Apollo didn't officially submit the Ace as Evidence and properly presented it.

Well, I was wrong. Kristoph asks if Apollo has any proof that the killer took something from the crime scene - and Apollo presents the Ace. He officially presents it, as part of the evidence. So, in a way - yes, Apollo presented false evidence. I guess my only gripe about this now is that Phoenix admits to Apollo that the Ace is forged right in the defendant lobby, in the courthouse, in front of his lawyer and guards.

Boy Phoenix is quite confident that nobody will say anything about it...

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
I don't really want to heat up this debate again, but I recently replayed Case 4-1 and paid attention to the whole Ace thing. In one of my previous posts, I said that Apollo didn't officially submit the Ace as Evidence and properly presented it.

Well, I was wrong. Kristoph asks if Apollo has any proof that the killer took something from the crime scene - and Apollo presents the Ace. He officially presents it, as part of the evidence. So, in a way - yes, Apollo presented false evidence. I guess my only gripe about this now is that Phoenix admits to Apollo that the Ace is forged right in the defendant lobby, in the courthouse, in front of his lawyer and guards.

Boy Phoenix is quite confident that nobody will say anything about it...

C-A


To be fair, I always thought that those lobby conversations were done in a somewhat low volume to ensure confidentiality. That, and the bailiffs are kinda far away. And Mike Meekins/Yanni Yogi were the shining examples of bailiffs we've had through the game.
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Well now, in Yogi's defense - he might have been a very competent bailiff. The only time we see him act incompetent is in his younger years when he was delusional due to lack of oxygen and, later on, faking incompetence. So perhaps he was a good bailiff originally.

Meekins............. yeah.
To me, he doesn't exist.

C-A
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I'm pretty sure it's just assumed that the guards can't hear them. I don't think Phoenix would be stupid enough to talk about how he had forged evidence within earshot of anyone besides Apollo.
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I actually really like this. Great elaboration. I definitely considered it when I first played the game, but I certainly didn't give it much thought, let alone this. The theory completely fits with the older Phoenix's personality (ambiguous, mysterious, mastermind-esque planning) too.

I'd say it's equal chances. Trucy's smarter than she looks, while Nick could have easily felt the card was necessary.
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Please continue the discussion! OP and icer, both have raised good points, I want to see some more discussion!
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By request.
What, this was in 2012? :larry:
Sorry, Neni, hope you read this one day.
Reply to this post by Neni.

Couldn't find my old draft post so I rewrote it. Sorry I haven't responded to every detail, it was very long.

Okay, so the first part of Neni's post was about her personal opinions about my personality and argument style. I would reply to that but since it's been so long, if she's still around she can PM me about it, right?
I'll still respond to a few things about that (debating the games) though:
Spoiler: Stuff to do with argument not topic
Neni wrote:
I try to insert tons of disclaimers in the vain of "This is what I believe, but not what you have to believe" into my theories nowadays for a reason, you know. ^^;

But is that necessary? It goes without saying we don't have to believe something just because some other forum member says so. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I just like them to accept my ideas aren't a load of rubbish.

Neni wrote:
*) I have not once in my life accepted a plot-hole as "just being a plot-hole" without trying to solve it.

And that's possibly an issue here. Many things for the purpose of the canon and writers' intent are just that: plot holes. In some cases, the solutions to 'fill it' really are just headcanon and fanfic material. So, if you want to have your headcanon about what reasonably might have happened, fine. But in some of these cases there just isn't any 'intent' on the writers' part. Saying the writing isn't 'perfect' is hardly some criticism and hating on the game. There are no doubt just as many plotholes in GS1-3, it's just those games ultimately gave better character resolution whereas GS4 is a 'controversial' game, not just with how it handled Phoenix but the way it didn't tie up a lot of the new characters either.

Neni wrote:
Aaaaaand, I think the last point is where we have our great conflict point.
You see, I was never trying to "prove" anything with this theory. There's nothing that CAN be proven. This is not court, we cannot crossexamine the GS dev staff and we have no tangible evidence. That was never the point.
I wanted to give a *possibility*.
The problem is, you keep arguing like I, in fact, had been trying to *prove* my theory, rather than just giving an interpretation of the situation. ...I am trying to find possible ways of how that plothole could be solved in-Universe and to find explanations as to why that plothole is there in first place.


I think I take issue with what you call a 'theory'. A Theory tends to be something believed to be a reasonable thing to assume as 'true' (as in, the most likely hypothesis currently known, based on a lot of evidence). You have constructed ideas of what could be POSSIBLE to fill the plotholes etc. which are REASONABLE, but can't really be argued to be THE MOST LIKELY hypothesis, which is what a Theory ultimately is. So yeah, it's POSSIBLE Takumi originally intended Trucy to forge the card, it doesn't contradict the canon to look at the ambiguities in the writing and choose to believe the scenario Trucy was the forger if you want to, there's a chain of reasoning to support that reading of the game. The main issue is that the most straightforward and default reading of the game is that it's Phoenix who forged the card, and that the way it's written, the writers probably assume most players will read it that way. It's our right as fans to fill in any ambiguities in the game with what we choose, and believe that as our headcanon, but it's one thing to construct our preferred reading of the game that doesn't contradict canon, and another to imply it was likely the intended one of the writers or the most likely hypothesis.
I'd suggest 'reading' or 'hypothesis' is a better term for you to use than 'theory'.

Neni wrote:
This is very possible, but again, this is your interpretation, not any more legit or less legit than mine. You cannot use it as "solid evidence" to "debuke" mine. You can only say "I personally like this interpretation better, because this and that doesn't sit right with me" and then we can peacefully discuss why each of us has different preferences there. That doesn't make either of us more "right", it just shows that we have different ideas of how to interprete this very vague game.


I'll quote someone else about shipping debates:
'No pairings are canon, but some are more canon than others'.
I'll edit that because it's wrong:
'No pairings are canon, but some can have a better argument for that reading supported by the limited evidence in the canon than others'.
Change pairings to anything ambiguous/not existing in the games. Of course nobody can prove a different reading of the game as 'wrong' (unless the reasoning to support it is hopeless/faulty). But some can have a more supportable hypothesis than others. Debating their relative merits is fun and interesting.

Neni wrote:
I will never claim I can prove this, but it seems so much more likely and logical to me and is just a much more satisfying explanation than "It's just a plothole, the writers were lazy." And so far, you really haven't shown me anything that really shows the theory is impossible or even unlikely.


Where do you get the idea I'm trying to 'prove' your 'theory' is 'impossible' or 'unlikely'.
I said it could be a reasonable scenario IF you wanted to believe it, it just isn't the one most readily to be interpreted from the game, so there's more evidence it was intentional we think Phoenix forged the card, so that seems more likely.
What's with all this black/white thinking? We don't know for sure the writers' intent on many things, but we can estimate the relative likelihood of their intent. So yeah I do think there's a case that maybe Takumi originally planned Trucy to forge the card, or it to be ambiguous, but it's more likely he just intended Phoenix to have done it, based on how the game is written.


Neni wrote:
Don't you believe that if you create a character lovingly and build them up and then someone writes something that goes completly against your ideas of what is plausible for the character and it's going to be made Canon forever, that you'd not veto it? Everyone would veto it. That's the the assumption he'd just have left it pass doesn't sit right with me. [..] The idea that he'd not care about what's done to his characters is pretty unbelievable for me...


I'm assuming you mean about 'breaking' Phoenix's character here by having him forge evidence, like you implied in an earlier post.

And yeah that's why people find GS4 Phoenix so 'shocking'. But like it or not, Takumi wrote it that he forged a card, or at least wrote in a way that Takumi knows most players will assume that. Now yeah, if you want to believe Trucy forged it instead, it's not impossible given the grey areas in the game, but it doesn't seem to be the most likely hypothesis. The game's writing most easily implies it was Phoenix who forged it, granted this is ambiguous as he says something vague about it being Trucy's card, but if someone is writing the game, the way it's written most players will assume Phoenix did it. I mean he doesn't deny it to Apollo. There's no scene later on where Trucy is revealed as the actual forger. Perhaps in an earlier draft/idea Trucy was the forger, but as the final game is, Phoenix is the most obvious and what most players would assume.

I think there are alternate ways to interpret this 'shocking' characterisation twist by Takumi of Phoenix. Assume Takumi did intend us to think Phoenix forged the card.
Now, some people, particularly those who are more 'rule following', will be more shocked and betrayed by this character development than others.

Yes some people might think Phoenix didn't do it at all... because Phoenix 'wouldn't do that' and since there is enough grey area in the writing, maybe those people can believe it was Trucy, you can't prove it wasn't, and there is a valid string of reasoning to support it. As players we all have a right to our own headcanon, regardless of what the writers do or don't intend.

But assuming it was Phoenix who forged the card, we ask why? What situation might make him do something like that? I assume that was part of the intent of such a 'shocking' scene, to make us ask WHY would Phoenix have done something like that? It's not what we'd expect from his GS3 character? If you take yourself out of your own or Apollo's POV, where you just feel betrayed by this character 'corruption' and try to think of Phoenix's POV.

Now I'll say all this following is just a hypothesis and fanfic material also. But you don't know how Takumi is thinking of Phoenix. Takumi may have different standards of 'rule following' than you do. So Takumi has written a character open to interpretation, but whatever 'shade of grey' you have interpreted Hobo!Phoenix in may not be what Takumi assumed at all. Maybe in Takumi's mind, he hasn't ruined the character, because from his perspective, Phoenix is less 'corrupted' than you who are appalled by this 'forgery' interpreted him as being. (We don't know Takumi's mind of course, but he wrote it, so it's only some people who think it 'ruined' the character, supposedly not Takumi himself). I freely admit I wanted to empathise with Phoenix, so when I played I tried to see things from his POV, but if Takumi cares about his character wouldn't he do the same when he wrote such a scenario? Please consider these ways of framing what Phoenix did:

- Like I said, for all we know when Phoenix forged/had forged the card, he expected Kristoph (original defense attorney) to present it. There's no proof of this, but it's a reasonable scenario. Phoenix rang Kristoph as his 'lawyer' just after the crime. Maybe he had no intention of Apollo being involved when he forged the card. Then he just didn't change the plan later on.

- Please try to put yourself in Phoenix's situation. If Phoenix is convicted of murder, he will die. Also, someone innocent like Olga might die. Seriously, when people's life is on the line, they take more compromises with 'rules' than they would otherwise. So in this situation, is forging a card to lock up the actual murderer really that bad? It's dishonest, certainly, but people will do a lot worse in their own direct self defense. In that situation, just witnessing a murder and knowing you're going to be framed for it, peoples' fight or flight response will kick in and they will do what they have to to survive. This would affect Phoenix's judgement. Even more when it's Kristoph who's the murderer.

- Then there's the type of character development which can happen when a character becomes disenfranchised. Why is Phoenix not a lawyer? Because he was framed for a crime he DIDN'T COMMIT - forging evidence.

So from Phoenix's POV, the world is UNFAIR. He obeyed the rules, but regardless he's had to live in disgrace for 7 years for 'forging evidence'. Has it got him anywhere?
Rules are not necessarily the same as 'ethics' you know? Mostly following the rules is also the most ethical and best thing to do, but not always.

So from Phoenix's perspective, he's already regarded as an Evidence Forger, so 'paid' for this crime he didn't even commit, and he apparently thinks the entire justice system is a joke anyway, since he wants it reformed with the Jury and all.

So of course, well forging the card was not a moral act, but Phoenix didn't suddenly go from rule-abiding lawyer to card-forging Hobo. He'd have a series of more gradual steps of 'justifications' in his mind that, in the heat of the moment, allowed him to do something so unethical.
e.g.
* 'but everyone thinks I'm an evidence forger anyway'
(Which is kind of reflected in this part:
"Phoenix:
My verdict was already
handed down... seven
years ago.

Apollo:
Then... You really...?

Phoenix:
Yes.
I forged this card.

Phoenix:
One look at the crime scene
should've told you it wasn't
real."
)

* 'But it's just what Kristoph deserves, doing the same to him, conviction on forged evidence'
* 'But the justice system and its rules are a joke anyway and should be reformed'
* Phoenix has lost respect for the authority of the court yes, but it is the same system that incorrectly disbarred him. It's not like he's lost respect for it out of thin air. You, the player, just don't know all this when you first play the game (unless you knew spoilers of course). Oh, Phoenix is wrong to forge the card and make a mockery of the court, but wouldn't most people lose respect for something that made such a mistake and effectively ruined their life? From this perspective, Phoenix's 'negative character development' doesn't seem so extreme. Many people would become far more disenfranchised after such a thing had happened to them, and far more corrupt, relatively speaking.

Neni wrote:
This doesn't solve the question of where the Mason system came from... And yeah, that's one plothole even I don't really want to touch too much. Epileptic trees grow where that thing mentioned... >_>


I have a hypothesis for that one (which I can't 'prove' obviously but it's an interesting reading of the game..) Ultimately only Takumi can explain what the MASON was canonically supposed to be :(

But mentioning the MASON.. why do people care Phoenix forged the card, but don't care he basically rigged the jury trial, and well, don't get me started on what the Jury presentation insanity was, if it literally occurred the way we played it, which I don't think it did...

Neni wrote:
...Wow, you have a negative view of Nick and Apollo's interaction. I-I mean, you totally can, but, wow... We need to have a chat about that some time I am burning to know how someone can be so disillusioned by their relationship... (I am being serious, I am genuiely interested and want to know and discuss it with you! It *is* likely a valid interpretation, just totally not the one I got out of it, not even remotely!)

This would take a while, is Neni around now, otherwise I won't reply to that now.
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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icer wrote:
- Like I said, for all we know when Phoenix forged/had forged the card, he expected Kristoph (original defense attorney) to present it. There's no proof of this, but it's a reasonable scenario. Phoenix rang Kristoph as his 'lawyer' just after the crime. Maybe he had no intention of Apollo being involved when he forged the card. Then he just didn't change the plan later on.


I don't think that was possible. I mean, the point of the ace was to prove the existence of a fourth party. Why in the world would Kristoph present evidence which would incriminate himself? And he would already know that it was forged, which would have made him suspicious. And that would have been very dangerous for Phoenix's plan to corner him.
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The purpose of the forged bloody ace was to incriminate Kristoph. The killer had taken the card with blood on it and replaced it with one that had a different back. When Apollo presented the ace, Kristoph claimed that he shouldn't have it, because it shouldn't exist. The only person who would know that that particular card shouldn't be in Apollo's possession is the one who took it from the crime scene, who was deduced to be the killer.

Phoenix specifically requested Apollo, presumably for the purpose of presenting the ace, because there was no way Kristoph would have. However, Phoenix's initial phone call to Kristoph has him asking for his services, so we don't know if it was his plan from the beginning to get Apollo involved.

I think it was Phoenix's idea to have the ace forged, but Trucy was the one who did it, considering Phoenix would have been in custody.
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luck wrote:
icer wrote:
- Like I said, for all we know when Phoenix forged/had forged the card, he expected Kristoph (original defense attorney) to present it. There's no proof of this, but it's a reasonable scenario. Phoenix rang Kristoph as his 'lawyer' just after the crime. Maybe he had no intention of Apollo being involved when he forged the card. Then he just didn't change the plan later on.


I don't think that was possible. I mean, the point of the ace was to prove the existence of a fourth party. Why in the world would Kristoph present evidence which would incriminate himself? And he would already know that it was forged, which would have made him suspicious. And that would have been very dangerous for Phoenix's plan to corner him.


Hmm yeah, you do have a point. (My memory of all the details of that case is indeed hazy...) Of course the forged stuff wouldn't have to be presented in the exact same context as the case we played. Kristoph could be tricked into presenting it. Maybe Phoenix himself didn't think about logistics like that at the time. Then later, of course, he changed to Apollo when he saw that was more likely to work like he wanted.

But I think Phoenix's main motive re: Kristoph was just the vengeance of convicting him with 'forged' evidence. When he made it he probably wasn't thinking about how it'd get to court he's probably like 'I need this evidence' or something.

So making Apollo present forged evidence was mean, but I doubt Phoenix was thinking about Apollo at all when he planned to have it in court. I'm not sure whether he knew Apollo existed at this point (the murder and supposed site of forgery). He saw Apollo before the trial, but I'm not sure if that was before or after the murder/phone call. Does the script say either way?

I think [?] earlier in this thread we decided it's still not told in the canon exactly when Phoenix forged this card? (And got it to Trucy. But well, then again the security in GS world seems to be lax, Phoenix could visit Kristoph right in his cell, Pearl visited Morgan and was instructed in a murder plot without anyone noticing, etc.. I suppose it could also have been before the police actually arrived, he made it and perhaps hid it somewhere for Trucy to find or something....)

If Trucy did forge the card it makes the story even more of an analogue to Vera (and they love to do 'ironic repeats' of things in this series, so that's definitely what the scene is supposed to be). But it makes Phoenix look even more corrupt, if he told her to do it for him. So that's a reason it could have been changed for the final version, if it was originally intended. I think it's worse to make your kid make a forgery for you than do it yourself. Then if in an earlier idea Trucy had been supposed to decide to make the forgery, well they could have changed it because that would make her more of a grey character, and tricking Apollo and all when she was supposed to be the ally/sidekick.
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icer wrote:
So making Apollo present forged evidence was mean, but I doubt Phoenix was thinking about Apollo at all when he planned to have it in court. I'm not sure whether he knew Apollo existed at this point (the murder and supposed site of forgery). He saw Apollo before the trial, but I'm not sure if that was before or after the murder/phone call. Does the script say either way?

I vaguely remember the fact that Phoenix actually requested Apollo in the place of Kristoph. Whether he knew Apollo existed or not before or after his phone call to Kristoph is beyond me, but Kristoph and Phoenix were good friends... apparently. So wouldn't Kristoph have told his 'friend' that he has a new subordinate before all that stuff went on...? Not sure. But I think that Phoenix might have known, so that may have been part of his master plan to throw Kristoph under some hypothetical buses.

Also, just would be happy to point out... It took me like an hour to read every post and every word in them, and then actually understand them fully. And I'm a fast reader, yo! Love it when topics get like this.
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Re: Who really forged the bloody Ace in Turnabout Trump?Topic%20Title
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icer wrote:
Hmm yeah, you do have a point. (My memory of all the details of that case is indeed hazy...) Of course the forged stuff wouldn't have to be presented in the exact same context as the case we played. Kristoph could be tricked into presenting it. Maybe Phoenix himself didn't think about logistics like that at the time. Then later, of course, he changed to Apollo when he saw that was more likely to work like he wanted.

Well, what the ace ultimately proved was that Kristoph was lying about seeing the crime from a window, and there was no way Phoenix could have predicted that he was going to say that. But the plan could have been to use it to prove that the secret passageway behind the cupboard had been used(which the ace proved, too.)
Still, I don't know how Kristoph could be tricked into presenting it. He should know better than anyone that last minute evidence appearing out of thin air is not trustwothy.

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But I think Phoenix's main motive re: Kristoph was just the vengeance of convicting him with 'forged' evidence. When he made it he probably wasn't thinking about how it'd get to court he's probably like 'I need this evidence' or something.

I guess there could be some revenge in it, but I think it was more of a desperate means to convict Kristoph. I mean, that was actually the first time he murdered someone. Phoenix probably realized how dangerous he really was, and if he killed Zak just because he could link him to his trial, a lot of people could be in danger, including Trucy, who could identify him as the person who gave him the forged page. There were reasons to do it.

Quote:
So making Apollo present forged evidence was mean, but I doubt Phoenix was thinking about Apollo at all when he planned to have it in court. I'm not sure whether he knew Apollo existed at this point (the murder and supposed site of forgery). He saw Apollo before the trial, but I'm not sure if that was before or after the murder/phone call. Does the script say either way?

Phoenix talked about Apollo with Shadi Smith(that was when we discovered that he's a Gramarye), and in that conversation, he mentioned that he had seen Apollo before. It's true that it was in the Mason System and we don't know how canon that was, but my headcanon is that all of those conversations did happen, and it's just the way we get and present evidence what is messed up for the sake of gameplay.
Anyways, Phoenix did hope that Apollo would be willing to go against his mentor. That's not something you just assume of someone without even knowing him.

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I think [?] earlier in this thread we decided it's still not told in the canon exactly when Phoenix forged this card? (And got it to Trucy. But well, then again the security in GS world seems to be lax, Phoenix could visit Kristoph right in his cell, Pearl visited Morgan and was instructed in a murder plot without anyone noticing, etc.. I suppose it could also have been before the police actually arrived, he made it and perhaps hid it somewhere for Trucy to find or something....)

Well, if he forged it before the police arrived (He had time to put a hat on the victim so why not?) and he used Zak's blood, then it'd be impossible to prove that it was forged, and there wouldn't be any risk for Apollo of getting disbarred.
As for how Trucy got it, I don't know. Maybe during a visit in the detention center? Are there any precedents of people exchanging items across the bulletproof glass? A card doesn't seems suspicious enough to get attention from the guard.

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If Trucy did forge the card it makes the story even more of an analogue to Vera (and they love to do 'ironic repeats' of things in this series, so that's definitely what the scene is supposed to be). But it makes Phoenix look even more corrupt, if he told her to do it for him. So that's a reason it could have been changed for the final version, if it was originally intended. I think it's worse to make your kid make a forgery for you than do it yourself. Then if in an earlier idea Trucy had been supposed to decide to make the forgery, well they could have changed it because that would make her more of a grey character, and tricking Apollo and all when she was supposed to be the ally/sidekick.

I think they made Trucy deliver it to make it even more of an analogue of what happened in Zak's trial. In both cases she's the innocent delivery girl. I think the ironic repeat is what make it seem so mean. Because Phoenix did to Apollo exactly what Kristoph did to him. He know very well how it feels and yet he did it without any remorse (apparently).
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