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forged evidence issueTopic%20Title
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Since phoenix used forged evidence in his final trial doesnt that mean every trial he has every worked would get looked into and convictions overturned ??
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davech1987 wrote:
Since phoenix used forged evidence in his final trial doesnt that mean every trial he has every worked would get looked into and convictions overturned ??


Might get looked into but they'd see that all previous trials were spotless so can't see why they'd overturn all his past verdicts.
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davech1987 wrote:
Since phoenix used forged evidence in his final trial doesnt that mean every trial he has every worked would get looked into and convictions overturned ??


Why should they? They already disbarred him for that. What does it matter what he did previously? Especially since A) they couldn't re-disbar him for those cases and B) all those cases had the real criminal admitting their guilt 100%, so it's not like those could be overruled. It's not like he forged their admission of guilt.

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Might get looked into but they'd see that all previous trials were spotless so can't see why they'd overturn all his past verdicts.


Technically, Phoenix has been doing things that aren't allowed, too. Pressuring and badgering witnesses repeatedly, practically pulling evidence out of his ass, evidence that was not admissiable to court to begin with (1-5 not withstanding because there it was a stupid little chain like contempt of court in 1-4) because neither police or prosecution knew about them and overall doing a shitty job that just depended on dumb luck.

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:

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Might get looked into but they'd see that all previous trials were spotless so can't see why they'd overturn all his past verdicts.


Technically, Phoenix has been doing things that aren't allowed, too. Pressuring and badgering witnesses repeatedly, practically pulling evidence out of his ass, evidence that was not admissiable to court to begin with (1-5 not withstanding because there it was a stupid little chain like contempt of court in 1-4) because neither police or prosecution knew about them and overall doing a shitty job that just depended on dumb luck.

C-A


Yeah but the cases were supervised by a Judge who is in charge of punishing pressuring and badgering witnesses so as an official of the court he's already in the clear.
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CatMuto wrote:
all those cases had the real criminal admitting their guilt 100%, so it's not like those could be overruled. It's not like he forged their admission of guilt.

I thought you were an expert in this kind of stuff.
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sumguy28 wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
all those cases had the real criminal admitting their guilt 100%, so it's not like those could be overruled. It's not like he forged their admission of guilt.

I thought you were an expert in this kind of stuff.


*shrug* We never hear of any of the guilty parties after, so even if it was a false confession and they did admit they lied during the high court where the cases are sent to (according to what is said in 1-4 and what little I looked up at one point on Japanese law system while playing through this series), they would generally tell us that they were left free. (Not counting Sahwit here cause I haven't played GK2 to that extent) Though it does make me think that maybe the cases really DO work on the concept of Phoenix just basically pulling a filibuster in court until the real killer finally cracks and admits JUST so they can get out of the room again.

C-A
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I can't remember the name but there is a name for something when the witness breaks down and confesses on the stand when shown evidence that links them to the crime but they belive the evidence can convict them so they confess it happens alot in perry mason I just cannot remember the name given
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davech1987 wrote:
I can't remember the name but there is a name for something when the witness breaks down and confesses on the stand when shown evidence that links them to the crime but they belive the evidence can convict them so they confess it happens alot in perry mason I just cannot remember the name given


...why don't they just make use of their right of silence? They are allowed to not say anything if their testimony would indicate that they are guilty of a criminal act.

C-A
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5th amendedment the right to not incrimnate ones self in crime but then it could be seen as guilt anyway i imagine lol
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davech1987 wrote:
5th amendedment the right to not incrimnate ones self in crime but then it could be seen as guilt anyway i imagine lol


Well this is the AA verse so they likely don't HAVE any rights.

C-A
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^ Not with Phoenix Wright AND Miles Edgeworth at the benches. No one is safe. Poor Adrian just got caught up in the middle of it.
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CatMuto wrote:
davech1987 wrote:
5th amendedment the right to not incrimnate ones self in crime but then it could be seen as guilt anyway i imagine lol


Well this is the AA verse so they likely don't HAVE any rights.

C-A



Are...are you forgetting Adrian? It was like the most memorable thing she did :ron:
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Pierre wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
davech1987 wrote:
5th amendedment the right to not incrimnate ones self in crime but then it could be seen as guilt anyway i imagine lol


Well this is the AA verse so they likely don't HAVE any rights.

C-A



Are...are you forgetting Adrian? It was like the most memorable thing she did :ron:


Pierre, we both know if they had proper rights in the AA verse, every single murderer would've caused a stall in the entire case by refusing to testify in the case. (And no, using your right of silence to not indicate yourself of A crime means you are guilty of THE crime) Everyone would not even dare to commit perjury cause they land in jail (only time I sorta saw this happen, off the top of my head, was April May and that felt like they merely used that background cause they didn't have a different one) and majority of evidence in the cases would never be admitted to court. (Wait that's a law procedure not a right...)

C-A
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You can continue saying the Ace Attorney series is crap and by law makes no sense anyway...

Doesn't change the fact that Adrian explicitly states she had the right not to testify and exercised it in-game.

:ron: Seriously just face facts. There ARE rights in Ace Attorney games. We might not have the full book of them because it's a mystery drama not an actual law simulator but they are confirmed to exist in some form.
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Quote:
There ARE rights in Ace Attorney games


But they are so inconsistent! It's just like contempt of court in 1-4 and evidence law in 1-5. It's just a dumb leash put onto you for one case and then forgotten. Either you keep that shit in for every case or you don't put it in at all. :ron:

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CatMuto wrote:
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There ARE rights in Ace Attorney games


But they are so inconsistent! It's just like contempt of court in 1-4 and evidence law in 1-5. It's just a dumb leash put onto you for one case and then forgotten. Either you keep that shit in for every case or you don't put it in at all. :ron:

C-A


Well opinions on the laws aren't what people are discussing right now. Whether they are always exercised or not isn't the question here.

Here's what you said:
Quote:
Well this is the AA verse so they likely don't HAVE any rights.


You are outright wrong in this statement.

A correct statement would be.

"I think the laws are so inconsistent in AA that they may as well not have any rights"
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre, we both know if they had proper rights in the AA verse, every single murderer would've caused a stall in the entire case by refusing to testify in the case. (And no, using your right of silence to not indicate yourself of A crime means you are guilty of THE crime) Everyone would not even dare to commit perjury cause they land in jail (only time I sorta saw this happen, off the top of my head, was April May and that felt like they merely used that background cause they didn't have a different one) and majority of evidence in the cases would never be admitted to court. (Wait that's a law procedure not a right...)

Incriminate... It's incriminate. Not indicate.

Anyway, the explanation given at that time is that apparently hardly anyone would just think of pleading the fifth and that the only reason Adrian thought of doing it is because Franziska planted the idea in her head.
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Quote:
Incriminate... It's incriminate. Not indicate.


Oops. My mind was filled with the adjective indicative. :ron:

Also, how can these people not know of pleading for their right of silence?
Isn't it common knowledge that you have that? (even in Japan)

C-A
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Refusing to testify is one thing, but if perjury is merely a slap on the wrist, I'd say it's much easier to just talk and get things over with than to stall out the trial... like how Adrian did.

Besides, it's impractical for the purposes of game development to rid of its reusable witnesses, even if they've been caught lying on the stand too many times to count. It's not too difficult to create new characters, since they do so anyway, but it's still more work they don't need.

So, uh, blame game mechanics?
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CatMuto wrote:
Also, how can these people not know of pleading for their right of silence?
Isn't it common knowledge that you have that? (even in Japan)

C-A

I didn't say they don't know about it. I (and Phoenix) said that most people wouldn't think about doing it on the spot.
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People might even be aware but know that refusing to testify would look super incriminating on their behalf. Rather than do something that risky they offer the most plausible lie they can in an attempt to get away.
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A lot of killers take the stand before anyone asks them to or being related to the crime, so they seem to think that lying their way out and trying to pin the blame on someone else is a better strategy than remaining silent.

And, well, when Adrian used her right, she ended up being harassed and character-assasinated by both defense and prosecution and became a main suspect, so...it wasn't really a good idea.

But seriously, the gameplay is based in finding contradictions in testimonies. It would be hard to do that if the witnesses just refused to testify.
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Pierre wrote:
People might even be aware but know that refusing to testify would look super incriminating on their behalf.


And yet, despite finding lie after lie in the testimony, the Judge still allows them (and swallows) their testimony so easily... nobody ever really says, "You've already been caught lying on the stand, we'll find it hard to believe another word out of you". Judgey may say "Please tell us the truth now..." but... I dunno, it's not really forceful.

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And, well, when Adrian used her right, she ended up being harassed and character-assasinated by both defense and prosecution and became a main suspect, so...it wasn't really a good idea.


I find that a bad example, not just because any lawyer (prosecution or defense) who would begin to reveal personal medical issues of a witness and badger them that openly would lose their badge faster than you can say Misham... but also, we're kinda supposed to see 2-4 as an extreme case of the exception. After all, both Phoenix and Edgey are practically blackmailed into doing whatever it takes to put the blame onto the wrong person. They don't really care if they are doing something wrong, they're doing it cause they have to.

So 2-4 is a bad example to pick what refusal to testify can bring, unless we took it as an example of Phoenix' whining.

C-A

PS: Also I keep writing testimoney first... damn lack of sleep.
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CatMuto wrote:
And yet, despite finding lie after lie in the testimony, the Judge still allows them (and swallows) their testimony so easily... nobody ever really says, "You've already been caught lying on the stand, we'll find it hard to believe another word out of you". Judgey may say "Please tell us the truth now..." but... I dunno, it's not really forceful.

It's semi-implied that the judge we all know and love is kind of a special case, what having both the nicknames Judge Fickle and The Great Judgini, if I am not mistaken. And the fact that the Judge basically allows any kind of abuse to himself.
It's very well possible that these things are not permissible under any other Judge's ruling and that this is the sole reason the true culprit gets basically infinite chances to redeem themselves. We're talking about Judge Fickle (and The Great Judgini), after all!

CatMuto wrote:
So 2-4 is a bad example to pick what refusal to testify can bring, unless we took it as an example of Phoenix' whining.

See, it's things like this that irk me. You always have to take a jab at others (be them fictional characters or not) without reason or relevance.
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It's very well possible that these things are not permissible under any other Judge's ruling


*cough judge's brother in 3-4 and 3-5*

Quote:
See, it's things like this that irk me. You always have to take a jab at others (be them fictional characters or not) without reason or relevance.


Please tell me you aren't the type to have your feelings hurt when someone insults fictional characters.
Also, we were talking about 2-4 being an example of things. I pointed out how 2-4 is a terrible case to pick as your example since most of things there are so contrived only due to blackmail, that we know that without the blackmail, MAJORITY of the issues would disappear, so things like Adrian refusing to testify would not have mattered so much.

So I fail to see how there was no relevance, since I pointed out what 2-4 WOULD be a good example of.

C-A
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@Cat

Yeah the judges brother is quite dumb but it's not the same situation. You can't say it was permissible under that judge just because both have some blunderous moments as well.
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CatMuto wrote:
*cough judge's brother in 3-4 and 3-5*

Dahlia, pretty much the culprit who could charm any man... And in 3-5 Bikini was not covering up for anyone and really tried to tell the truth as she saw it.

CatMuto wrote:
Please tell me you aren't the type to have your feelings hurt when someone insults fictional characters.

I said it irked me, not offended me. And it's not even about the insulting of fictional characters... It's about your seemingly pathological need to point out their stupidities and weaknesses at every opportunity you get, whether it's relevant or not.

CatMuto wrote:
Also, we were talking about 2-4 being an example of things. I pointed out how 2-4 is a terrible case to pick as your example since most of things there are so contrived only due to blackmail, that we know that without the blackmail, MAJORITY of the issues would disappear, so things like Adrian refusing to testify would not have mattered so much.

Then you have a problem in wording things. How did "2-4 is an example of Phoenix's whining" imply all this?
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Then you have a problem in wording things. How did "2-4 is an example of Phoenix's whining" imply all this?


Cause we were talking about 2-4 and how it was an example of something? :ron:

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
Then you have a problem in wording things. How did "2-4 is an example of Phoenix's whining" imply all this?


Cause we were talking about 2-4 and how it was an example of something? :ron:

C-A


Notice, Nurio how she has clipped down your post to the least-relevant-to-the-matter-at-hand one and answered it to keep up the pretense of an argument while not conceding points she might not have any answer to?
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Nurio wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
*cough judge's brother in 3-4 and 3-5*

Dahlia, pretty much the culprit who could charm any man... And in 3-5 Bikini was not covering up for anyone and really tried to tell the truth as she saw it.


Going a bit offtopic, I've always wondered why nobody sides with Mia. She's been canonically defined as very attractive. Why only Gumshoe is affected by it?



And now back on topic, Gant also used his right to remain silent in 1-5. I don't recall if they say the same in 2-4, but when he did it, it was stated that if you use your right to remain silent, you're renouncing to your right of defending yourself against any accusations and that's why people usually don't do it.
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luck wrote:
Nurio wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
*cough judge's brother in 3-4 and 3-5*

Dahlia, pretty much the culprit who could charm any man... And in 3-5 Bikini was not covering up for anyone and really tried to tell the truth as she saw it.


Going a bit offtopic, I've always wondered why nobody sides with Mia. She's been canonically defined as very attractive. Why only Gumshoe is affected by it?



And now back on topic, Gant also used his right to remain silent in 1-5. I don't recall if they say the same in 2-4, but when he did it, it was stated that if you use your right to remain silent, you're renouncing to your right of defending yourself against any accusations and that's why people usually don't do it.


It's easier to have a stigma against the defence for defending people they know they are guilty. Whereas Prosecution are pro-active in making people guilty.

As they say "queue like an execution", folks love to see 'justice'.
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Quote:
Going a bit offtopic, I've always wondered why nobody sides with Mia. She's been canonically defined as very attractive. Why only Gumshoe is affected by it?


I think it was because we're supposed to believe that Dahlia exuded (ex... cuded...? ...gave off) an aura of complete serenity and cuteness that it made her look even hotter than Mia?

Quote:
And now back on topic, Gant also used his right to remain silent in 1-5. I don't recall if they say the same in 2-4, but when he did it, it was stated that if you use your right to remain silent, you're renouncing to your right of defending yourself against any accusations and that's why people usually don't do it.


Yeah that part never made sense to me in 1-5. Using your right to remain silent means you refuse to answer questions that could potentially incriminate you of a crime, but that doesn't mean you are willy-nilly going to sit there (or be forced to), taking all kinds of accusations that might have nothing to do with anything. You are allowed to defend your own character as this could be seen as slander.

C-A
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luck wrote:
Going a bit offtopic, I've always wondered why nobody sides with Mia. She's been canonically defined as very attractive. Why only Gumshoe is affected by it?

On top of what everyone else has said, Mia also didn't really actively try to charm anyone.
(Also, Diego was affected by Mia's attractiveness too.)

CatMuto wrote:
Yeah that part never made sense to me in 1-5. Using your right to remain silent means you refuse to answer questions that could potentially incriminate you of a crime, but that doesn't mean you are willy-nilly going to sit there (or be forced to), taking all kinds of accusations that might have nothing to do with anything. You are allowed to defend your own character as this could be seen as slander.

It's actually only slander if they're false claims with the intent to drag someone through the mud. If they're true accusations, it's not slander.
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