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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Quote:
Spoiler: 4-3
I'm not convinced that Trucy knew how the trick was done honestly. She only claims to have figured it out once during a cross-examination (I'm assuming the point you're talking about is uncovering how Larimoir was able to move so quickly. I think that's the only time Trucy claims to know anything), but for the rest of the case before that she was at a loss. Taking her personality into account, I wouldn't be surprised to find that she was trying to show off some of her great magician skills by claiming to know how it was done. She even says something like "I've already figured it out. I'm a magician after all." More then that, after Apollo figures out what happens, Trucy makes a guess as to how the double is still singing on stage and was wrong (and by that point has no trouble chiming in to help even though she would revealing a part of the trick). Now it could just be that was all she didn't know, but honestly I think she was just bluffing as her father is so fond of doing. To each their own though. :)


Spoiler:
I don't think she knew how it was done from the get-go either, but she did figure out a crucial part of the trick before Apollo did (and yeah, I was talking about the part where you had to figure out how Larimoir could move so quickly). It was her constantly talking about how she knew and how she wouldn't tell Apollo that got on my nerves so much (particularly since that was the only time I found myself completely stumped in the entire game, so I had to hear her say it every time I went through Larimoir's testimony. Ugh). Even if she didn't know and was bluffing, I totally didn't appreciate the deceit. A simple, "I have no idea how it was done" would have sufficed, and kept me from being so frustrated with her. But as you said, though, to each their own. =)


Quote:
Spoiler:
I have to admit that while I'm not a fan of the ranters I found Stickler more annoying than Brushel though Brushel was still very annoying.

As for Klavier all I can say is that i feel that he was a nice change of pace. Far more unique than every other prosecutor in the series who always bears a grudge towards Phoenix for whatever reason.


Spoiler:
Stickler was annoying too, but for some reason Brushel got on my nerves worse than he did. So... twitchy...

I think they could have made a prosecutor who was honest and didn't hold a grudge against Nick a lot more believable than they made Klavier. He's likable, but completely uncredible as a prosecutor IMO. You can't expect me to believe he has time to go over mountains of paper work to prepare for court AND hold rock concerts on a regular basis. Being an attorney is a full-time job, and so is being a rock star. Even if Klavier did say he was a "prosecutor first, rock star second," him holding two demanding jobs didn't come off as believable to me.

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Carmelita wrote:

Spoiler:
Stickler was annoying too, but for some reason Brushel got on my nerves worse than he did. So... twitchy...

I think they could have made a prosecutor who was honest and didn't hold a grudge against Nick a lot more believable than they made Klavier. He's likable, but completely uncredible as a prosecutor IMO. You can't expect me to believe he has time to go over mountains of paper work to prepare for court AND hold rock concerts on a regular basis. Being an attorney is a full-time job, and so is being a rock star. Even if Klavier did say he was a "prosecutor first, rock star second," him holding two demanding jobs didn't come off as believable to me.


Spoiler:
The thing is that Klavier didn't have any real reason to hold a grudge against Apollo. He had more of a reason to have a grudge against Kristoph if anything going by the events of 4-4. I liked the fact that Klavier is the first prosecutor who's not out for revenge or anything but is just there to find the truth. Besides do we really need another prosecutor whos obsessed with their win record or something? I mean been there done that.

and well obviously Klavier doesn't have time to do both. After all he took off prosecuting for seven years because his band became popular. Yet even then during 4-3 you saw how serious Klavier can be when it comes to getting casework done. He doesn't exactly make Ema do all the work for him despite Ema saying different. Also at the end of 4-4 Klavier even states that he's breaking off the band just so he can prosecute against Apollo more. I think that says that Klavier is a serious prosecutor with a side hobby but that hobby doesn't take precedence over his real job. I think he knew where to draw the line.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Spoiler:
The thing is that Klavier didn't have any real reason to hold a grudge against Apollo. He had more of a reason to have a grudge against Kristoph if anything going by the events of 4-4. I liked the fact that Klavier is the first prosecutor who's not out for revenge or anything but is just there to find the truth. Besides do we really need another prosecutor whos obsessed with their win record or something? I mean been there done that.

and well obviously Klavier doesn't have time to do both. After all he took off prosecuting for seven years because his band became popular. Yet even then during 4-3 you saw how serious Klavier can be when it comes to getting casework done. He doesn't exactly make Ema do all the work for him despite Ema saying different. Also at the end of 4-4 Klavier even states that he's breaking off the band just so he can prosecute against Apollo more. I think that says that Klavier is a serious prosecutor with a side hobby but that hobby doesn't take precedence over his real job. I think he knew where to draw the line.


Spoiler:
I agree with the first paragraph. Despite how much I prefer Edgeworth, Franziska, and Godot as opponents in court compared to Klavier, it's nice to have someone who doesn't hate you from the get-go. I just didn't think they pulled of Klavi's character in a believable way. And even though he may attempt to draw the line and does some of his work himself, I don't think Ema would have complained unless there wasn't some truth to it.

I also don't think you can call his band a hobby. If it was a small garage band, then maybe, but he's a part of an incredibly popular rock band that performs in front of huuuuuge crowds. He also has a large fanbase, as seen in case 4-2 when there's a group of girls following him wherever he goes.

Did Klavier really take off prosecuting for sever years because of his band? I was under the impression he had been doing both since he was 17.

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Carmelita wrote:
Spoiler:
Did Klavier really take off prosecuting for sever years because of his band? I was under the impression he had been doing both since he was 17.


Spoiler: 4-2
The judge comments in the beginning of 4-2 that he hadn't seen Klavier in a while to which Klavier responds that he had been busy with his band since they'd gotten popular. Klavier also then mentions that it was worth canceling a couple concerts to go up against Apollo. I don't think the specify how long he took off though, but clearly juggling the two is not something he takes lightly.

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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*looksbothways*

I didn't like Klavier. The way the trials went with him was just....ugh. Him helping out Apollo like every 5 seconds just pissed me off. >__>;;;

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meh I'm starting to think people hate Klavier because he doesn't have a cold harsh glare like Edgey... :(
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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... accidental double post *points down*
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Last edited by Carmelita on Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Mia_Fey wrote:
Carmelita wrote:
Spoiler:
Did Klavier really take off prosecuting for sever years because of his band? I was under the impression he had been doing both since he was 17.


Spoiler: 4-2
The judge comments in the beginning of 4-2 that he hadn't seen Klavier in a while to which Klavier responds that he had been busy with his band since they'd gotten popular. Klavier also then mentions that it was worth canceling a couple concerts to go up against Apollo. I don't think the specify how long he took off though, but clearly juggling the two is not something he takes lightly.


I guess that's the peril of only playing the game once. =D

Spoiler:
Still, the fact that he did juggle them both ruined his credibility as a prosecutor for me. Now that's he's dropped the band, maybe I'll like him better if he appears in the second game. We'll see.


Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
meh I'm starting to think people hate Klavier because he doesn't have a cold harsh glare like Edgey... :(


Speaking for myself, totally not true. I like him as a character, just not a prosecutor.
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Carmelita wrote:

Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
meh I'm starting to think people hate Klavier because he doesn't have a cold harsh glare like Edgey... :(


Speaking for myself, totally not true. I like him as a character, just not a prosecutor.


Well it's always "he's too helpful" or "he's not evil enough." I mean seriously why does every prosecutor have to be like Manfred or Godot to be good?

Heck I find Payne to be rather annoying honestly (mainly cause I always want to get to the main prosecutors) but I don't think he's a "bad character" or a "bad prosecutor"
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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:O I like Klavier as a character, not a prosecuter. Is all.

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Carmelita wrote:

Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
meh I'm starting to think people hate Klavier because he doesn't have a cold harsh glare like Edgey... :(


Speaking for myself, totally not true. I like him as a character, just not a prosecutor.


Well it's always "he's too helpful" or "he's not evil enough." I mean seriously why does every prosecutor have to be like Manfred or Godot to be good?

Heck I find Payne to be rather annoying honestly (mainly cause I always want to get to the main prosecutors) but I don't think he's a "bad character" or a "bad prosecutor"


I think it's just because the first three PW games each had a prosecutor who was against you, so that's what people came to expect. Having a prosecutor who was with you from the get-go was completely different. Some people liked it, some didn't.

Klavier isn't a 'bad character' or a 'bad prosecutor.' It was just hard for me to believe he was a prosecutor in the first place and not doubt him in some way.
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Well I'm just saying sometimes I have to wonder if to make people happy they have to make every prosecutor an evil jackass who care more about their perfect win record than the truth, and always hold a personal grudge against the main character for some odd reason which in most cases is revenge for something the main character did to another character.

I mean as far as I can see that's why people seem to hate Klavier as a prosecutor. Because he isn't any of this, but I like it. I think it's a nice change since every prosecutor in the first three games was practically the same in many ways while still different in others.
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I think people are misunderstanding this concept. It's not that Klavier didn't have some eternal vendetta from hell against Apollo for stepping on his puppy's tail, it's that he wasn't challenging. He basically always said "Hey Apollo, seriously, you sure you didn't miss anything... like really... right there... that's a contradiction you largely foreheaded freak." With Edgeworth, he seemed flawless, he would set traps in the cross examinations and he NEVER pointed out his own contradictions. Manfred Von Karma... don't even go there. Franziska Von Karma would always cover her crap up and quick so you could get mega pwned. Godot just seemed to have his case well put together and would keep the facts to himself. That's why Klavier isn't my favorite opponent, but he is an awesome character. If he had fought to keep his cases more together it would be better, but as soo as you say ANYTHING he goes "Well since he went to the right instead of the left... let me tell you EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW." Klavier was basically a walking answer key.
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Note: Some of these are from my first go-around, of which I didn't mind after playing it a second time.

Spoiler: Case 4-1 to 4-4
So, what, you're not going to show off how raspy Apollo's voice is by voice-acting another clip of him saying "Objection!", "Hold it!", and "Gotcha!" when he lost his voice? So, am I suppose to believe he lost his voice throughout the whole game? Man, that must've been annoying for Trucy to talk to him.


Spoiler: Case 4-2
How her "magic panties" weren't the ones I was thinking they were. What made me quite ticked is how Winfred/Tsunekatsu spoke in a "Italian-gangster" type of fashion, yet Wocky/Takita had the "American-gangster" speech going on. I mean, my God, son, you ain't that kind of gangsta!


Spoiler: 4-3
:agent-Smith: "o hai, i'mma just hur to steel sum kakunas fo mistah neener-hair so he can get sum monees, hur hur hur.
:gipsy: "o, yur not needed anymoar. goawaiplz"
:agent-Smith: "wtf, i thought we had something special. :("
:gipsy: "nope. nevah gonna talk 'bout chu again. :3"

Gee, gg Lamiroir/Thalassa/Ash Ketchum. It's not like you didn't share so many moments together with him and that you didn't think about Machi at the ending. Oh, no! Now that you have kids now, he's not needed to fill the void in your wants of having a child. bitch


Spoiler: People
+ Kristoph Gavin is an arse-face from here to Atlanta. (That's flattering him!)
+ Spark Brushel. DO NOT WANT!
+ Daryan Crescend and his pen0r-hair. I was not very comfortable that it was hard practically throughout the whole case (namely when he was near Apollo or Trucy). Needs a new hairdo or has to lay off of the Viagra, dude.


And I'm done with my stupid complaining. Please do not try to rationalize it. =P
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Darksama28 wrote:
I think people are misunderstanding this concept. It's not that Klavier didn't have some eternal vendetta from hell against Apollo for stepping on his puppy's tail, it's that he wasn't challenging. He basically always said "Hey Apollo, seriously, you sure you didn't miss anything... like really... right there... that's a contradiction you largely foreheaded freak." With Edgeworth, he seemed flawless, he would set traps in the cross examinations and he NEVER pointed out his own contradictions. Manfred Von Karma... don't even go there. Franziska Von Karma would always cover her crap up and quick so you could get mega pwned. Godot just seemed to have his case well put together and would keep the facts to himself. That's why Klavier isn't my favorite opponent, but he is an awesome character. If he had fought to keep his cases more together it would be better, but as soo as you say ANYTHING he goes "Well since he went to the right instead of the left... let me tell you EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW." Klavier was basically a walking answer key.

Spoiler:
Now wait a minute Klavier has also set traps up for Apollo as well. There were times where it was obvious that Klavier anticipated Apollo's moves. Outside of 4-4 Klavier rarely if at all helped out Apollo at all. In 4-2 the only time Klavier was helpful was when he very subtly told apollo to remember everything he learned. He didn't say "hey Apollo remember what I said about exhaust pipes yesterday?" in 4-3 he was constantly saying that Lamiroir's testimony wasn't credible despite it becoming the truth and it was really Phoenix who helped Apollo to beat Daryan in that case than Klavier.

Klavier like 2-4 Edgeworth is only interested in the truth and he doesn't want to see innocent people get convicted. But nowhere did I see him being overly helpful. He was just as antagonistic as any other prosecutor and if I recall even Edgeworth, Fransizka, and Godot would give Phoenix subtle hints to help him along so it's not like Klavier is the only one who did it.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Spoiler:
Outside of 3-5 when was there ever an instant GAME OVER feel? 4-4 was more like 2-4 in the fact that you could choose whether or not the miracle happened. That's all there is to it. Heck even in 3-5 you weren't pressed into a corner because you already knew how to prove Godot did it. There wasn't even any point to the ultimate penalty unless you intentionally WANTED a game over.

Do you have any proof that he wasn't? The Jury voted innocent based on that someone else killed Drew Misham and even without the decisive evidence it was still painfully clear that it was Kristoph Gavin. In 2-4 the Judge even states that he feels Engarde is guilty but without the proof he'd have no choice but to proclaim him innocent, and really Phoenix didn't win that through using evidence. He won it by tricking dekiller into breaking the contract with Engarde. Plus if we look at Kristoph's reactions when he breaks down at the end of 4-4 and his maniacal laughter after the verdict I think it's pretty clear that he's going to confess to everything since all his plans were foiled. Apollo and Klavier were able to finger Kristoph single handedly, Very was still alive, and it was Phoenix who delivered the final blow with the verdict.

Oh and lets not forget that Vera could easily identify Kristoph as the client since she lived.

Lets face it. In the bad ending there's a hung jury and the last possible person related to the case outside of Phoenix and Klavier is dead thanks to Kristoph. Phoenix wouldn't have another chance to close the case from seven years ago and get his final revenge on Kristoph. Saving Vera and proclaiming her innocent was the only way to finish things once and for all.

Well yeah it doesn't matter. What's the judge gonna do to him? He can't exactly take his badge away again, and Apollo's career wouldn't be in jeopardy if Phoenix took the hit. Also lets face it Phoenix did that only once and Kristoph was deserving of it. How ironic that the forger would fall due to falsified evidence. Besides Phoenix made Apollo present it moreso to expose Kristoph for the liar he was not convict him.


Spoiler:
I mean game over in the literal sense. Edgeworth challenges you to find what's wrong with the crime scene (juice bottle) and the photograph, both of which will result in a 100% life bar loss if you happen to get it wrong. Godot goes for the entire life bar during one trial (I think it's 3-5). Klavier never pushes it that far and it's Kristoph that is the one who makes it from 60% to 80%.

You've provided a good justification for why Kristoph went crazy in 4-4. It has become slightly more epic than I originally thought of it after finishing it hte first time. But some players think that three pieces of evidence and one perceive is underwhelming for what's supposed to be set up for a final trial.

I don't think that Apollo would have gotten as scot off as you portray it to be. If Kristoph had talked about it, I'm sure Apollo might have been in some trouble as he had gotten the recreated evidence in the same exact fashion as the Wright had gotten forged diary page. Defense attorneys are responsible for the evidence they present. And it doesn't matter if Kristoph deserved it or if he did it once - if Wright has to resort to the same tactics as Kristoph, then he's no better than him. Nitpicky, but to spin it you should say "recreated evidence" as you support Wright doing it, rather than falsified, as it is argued that the card really existed but Wright just had to make it again. The only reason why we root for Wrigtht is because he's the good guy.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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hbdragon88 wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't think that Apollo would have gotten as scot off as you portray it to be. If Kristoph had talked about it, I'm sure Apollo might have been in some trouble as he had gotten the recreated evidence in the same exact fashion as the Wright had gotten forged diary page. Defense attorneys are responsible for the evidence they present. And it doesn't matter if Kristoph deserved it or if he did it once - if Wright has to resort to the same tactics as Kristoph, then he's no better than him. Nitpicky, but to spin it you should say "recreated evidence" as you support Wright doing it, rather than falsified, as it is argued that the card really existed but Wright just had to make it again. The only reason why we root for Wrigtht is because he's the good guy.


Spoiler: 1-5, all of AJ
Well Apollo might have gotten a slap on the wrist, but defense attorneys are supposed to trust their clients. The rookie got taken in by his con-man of a client (which is how Phoenix was viewed by this point in time) and that was bad but not really his fault. Perhaps he'd get a slap on the wrist for being stupid similar to what Edgeworth got in 1-5 and perhaps a bit of investigation into his background (which would be short, sweet, and come up with nothing considering how short Apollo's career had been so far). I can't see him getting anything more and the game doesn't seem to suggest that anything more would happen to him.

I don't think saying that Phoenix is no better then Kristoph is really fair. Kristoph forged evidence (which really was completely fake) to build up his own reputation and then passed it off to Phoenix so that he could get revenge on him and Zak for apparently being wronged. Kristoph's sole purpose for handing off that forged evidence was destroying two innocent people. His original plan called to place the blame on Valant with complete disregard to everything else. Phoenix, on the other hand, forged that evidence (which he knew had been real), to make sure that he and an innocent woman didn't go down for a murder they didn't commit. He did not use it as decisive evidence and it did not incriminate Kristoph on it's own (while the forged diary page clearly incriminated Valant). Kristoph's lies and his knowledge of things that he shouldn't have known were what finished him off. Unlike with what Kristoph did, Phoenix covered Apollo at every angle so if things went wrong, Phoenix was going down for murder and Apollo would be essentially safe. As we see in 4-4, forged evidence is seen as a confession by the court. Not only that, Apollo learned a valuable lesson through all this which we see him utilizing as early as 4-3. Yes, I see a distinct difference. Now, you certainly don't need to like what Phoenix did and you may hate Phoenix forever for that one moment in his life if that is what you wish to do, but I would like to avoid unfair comparisons if at all possible. Phoenix was in a very bad situation with very few viable options (none of them really being "good" choices) and made the best decision he could that would lead them to the truth. He then made sure that he received some form of punishment by goading Apollo into hitting him (while Kristoph fought tooth and nail to make sure that he would never be found out for all of his crimes). And that is all without taking into account all the people Kristoph killed and all the lives he ruined.


Anyway, we seem to have strayed some from the point of this thread, so perhaps we should get it back on topic. :)
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As I say, life is rarely a picturesque black and white photo, more a sort of ugly, murky in-between grey. AJ showed that Phoenix does have another side, one that has risen since his disbarment. He does what he must because he can, for the good of all of them, except the ones who are dead...
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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Spoiler:
Outside of 3-5 when was there ever an instant GAME OVER feel? 4-4 was more like 2-4 in the fact that you could choose whether or not the miracle happened. That's all there is to it. Heck even in 3-5 you weren't pressed into a corner because you already knew how to prove Godot did it. There wasn't even any point to the ultimate penalty unless you intentionally WANTED a game over.

Do you have any proof that he wasn't? The Jury voted innocent based on that someone else killed Drew Misham and even without the decisive evidence it was still painfully clear that it was Kristoph Gavin. In 2-4 the Judge even states that he feels Engarde is guilty but without the proof he'd have no choice but to proclaim him innocent, and really Phoenix didn't win that through using evidence. He won it by tricking dekiller into breaking the contract with Engarde. Plus if we look at Kristoph's reactions when he breaks down at the end of 4-4 and his maniacal laughter after the verdict I think it's pretty clear that he's going to confess to everything since all his plans were foiled. Apollo and Klavier were able to finger Kristoph single handedly, Very was still alive, and it was Phoenix who delivered the final blow with the verdict.

Oh and lets not forget that Vera could easily identify Kristoph as the client since she lived.

Lets face it. In the bad ending there's a hung jury and the last possible person related to the case outside of Phoenix and Klavier is dead thanks to Kristoph. Phoenix wouldn't have another chance to close the case from seven years ago and get his final revenge on Kristoph. Saving Vera and proclaiming her innocent was the only way to finish things once and for all.

Well yeah it doesn't matter. What's the judge gonna do to him? He can't exactly take his badge away again, and Apollo's career wouldn't be in jeopardy if Phoenix took the hit. Also lets face it Phoenix did that only once and Kristoph was deserving of it. How ironic that the forger would fall due to falsified evidence. Besides Phoenix made Apollo present it moreso to expose Kristoph for the liar he was not convict him.


Spoiler:
Even in 2-4 or 3-5, the question you could lose to you could really, actually lose to. Sort of like how I presented evidence in 1-5 before I should've and got the bad ending, with Gant clapping and laughing and Ema going to jail. There is a real possibility of failure there. In 4-4's ending, you had already done all the work. You had to TRY to get the bad ending.

And the other Pheonix 'trick' wins have a thouroughly different feel. The player was actually doing something. In the end it was Pheonix, through guile and cunning, who was able to turn the case around. Even if the player wasn't aware, there was still a sense of accomplishment. In the end, I didn't feel like I beat Kristoph. I felt like you were at that limit, where you KNEW how it went down but needed to prove it, because as Edgeworth said, "Proof is everything in court." Instead, when I reached that point where I was ready for the turnaround, to link it all together, and see Apollo do one of those miracles, it didn't happen. There was a jury which we handed it to. I felt like the rules of court we totally bent to allow it. It didn't feel like a real victory, especially against Kristoph, who in case 1 and 4's investigation I found to be an amazingly intriguing villian. The jury system didn't show Apollo's abilities in any way, and I personally viewed it as a shoddy narriative.

On Klavier, as had been said before, I liked him as a character. But as a prosecutor, he just didn't press me as hard as I would've liked. Prosectuors don't have to be irritating to work well- Look at post-Jerkworth. He was still looking for the truth in 1-5 and 2-4, but he still had a harsh, unforgiving edge. You needed to beat him, and he wouldn't let anything slide. You were testing him, as he tested you. Klavier? He literally POINTS OUT the contridictions for you, which is just too much.

Ultimately, thats what frusturated me. Not only did Apollo have his limelight stolen, I didn't see his skills develop. In PW1, you see Pheonix go from a greenhorn to dueling the legendary von Karma, and he becomes an ace. Apollo needs help -every- -single- step of the way, and still seems unpolished by the end of it. I know this story was of Pheonix passing the baton to Apollo, but the latter gets so little development I can't help but think I should've been called PW3.5
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My only real disappointments were how Klavier didn't meet my expectations as a prosecutor, and how you could no longer shove photographs of people's profiles into another's face.

Klavier's cool and everything as a character, but I prefered the Phoenix/Edgeworth method of determining the truth more than that of Apollo/Klavier's. The court trials are so mellow, and the Klavier doesn't seem to take his job seriously enough. I mean, he's awesome, there's no doubt about that, but when you know exactly what the prosecution's next move is, it really takes a lot out of the gameplay experience D:

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Anuer wrote:

Spoiler:
Even in 2-4 or 3-5, the question you could lose to you could really, actually lose to. Sort of like how I presented evidence in 1-5 before I should've and got the bad ending, with Gant clapping and laughing and Ema going to jail. There is a real possibility of failure there. In 4-4's ending, you had already done all the work. You had to TRY to get the bad ending.

And the other Pheonix 'trick' wins have a thouroughly different feel. The player was actually doing something. In the end it was Pheonix, through guile and cunning, who was able to turn the case around. Even if the player wasn't aware, there was still a sense of accomplishment. In the end, I didn't feel like I beat Kristoph. I felt like you were at that limit, where you KNEW how it went down but needed to prove it, because as Edgeworth said, "Proof is everything in court." Instead, when I reached that point where I was ready for the turnaround, to link it all together, and see Apollo do one of those miracles, it didn't happen. There was a jury which we handed it to. I felt like the rules of court we totally bent to allow it. It didn't feel like a real victory, especially against Kristoph, who in case 1 and 4's investigation I found to be an amazingly intriguing villian. The jury system didn't show Apollo's abilities in any way, and I personally viewed it as a shoddy narriative.

On Klavier, as had been said before, I liked him as a character. But as a prosecutor, he just didn't press me as hard as I would've liked. Prosectuors don't have to be irritating to work well- Look at post-Jerkworth. He was still looking for the truth in 1-5 and 2-4, but he still had a harsh, unforgiving edge. You needed to beat him, and he wouldn't let anything slide. You were testing him, as he tested you. Klavier? He literally POINTS OUT the contridictions for you, which is just too much.

Ultimately, thats what frusturated me. Not only did Apollo have his limelight stolen, I didn't see his skills develop. In PW1, you see Pheonix go from a greenhorn to dueling the legendary von Karma, and he becomes an ace. Apollo needs help -every- -single- step of the way, and still seems unpolished by the end of it. I know this story was of Pheonix passing the baton to Apollo, but the latter gets so little development I can't help but think I should've been called PW3.5


Spoiler:
But that was the point of the jurist system. It was even explained by Apollo in 4-3. What's the point of a judicial system that protects criminals? Even Phoenix stated in 4-1 that the judicial system has entered a dark time. The whole point of proof being everything in a court of law is the very thing that people like Kristoph could take advantage of. Eliminate the proof and you can get away with anything. This was even proven in 4-3 when Daryan did this. Plus lets look at Kristoph's breakdown in 4-4. Kristoph believed that evidence was the most important thing and in the end the Jurist system was his downfall because it's something he couldn't control. Also even so with Vera alive in the end she could point Kristoph out as the client from seven years ago and as we all know decisive testimony is just as good as decisive evidence. In the end it was the Jurists common sense that beat Kristoph. It was something that was needed to beat him since the current court system would have allowed him to get away with his crime due to lack of evidence. I feel that this was a very satisfying way to finish off Kristoph Because Phoenix set it up in a way that Kristoph wouldn't be able to use the excuse of lack of evidence. There was absolutely no escape for him. Even Klavier said this when he told Kristoph that it was over.

I still feel that Klavier didn't help out as much as you say he did, but that's just how I feel. I feel Klavier tended to anticipate Apollo's moves and tease him more often than point out contradictions. As I said any time that Klavier happened to do so it was purely coincidental. Such as the exhaust pipe thing in 4-2.

and I think it's fair to take a new direction with Apollo. He's not a genius like Phoenix was and he needs help along the way. He'll get to Phoenix's status eventually but until then he needs all the help he can get. Besides Phoenix always needed help from Mia, Maya, etc. So I don't think it's fair to say that Apollo needed more help than Phoenix.
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Mayhem wrote:
As I say, life is rarely a picturesque black and white photo, more a sort of ugly, murky in-between grey. AJ showed that Phoenix does have another side, one that has risen since his disbarment. He does what he must because he can, for the good of all of them, except the ones who are dead...


:beef:

Yes, Phoenix has become something of a bastard in the series... but that's probably why he ended up stealing the show towards the end. Apollo Justice... ended up being more a 'Turnabout Turnabout Succession', IMO, because of how he basically took over the last story. Nice guys you want to root for... but it seems the popular ones are those who are just a little treacherous, a little bad - or wholly so, to judge by how people in Final Fantasy forums root for Sephiroth. Even I find myself rooting for Phoenix because, even if he's been disbarred and apparently a little more 'flexible' with his morals, he's still more interesting than Apollo is.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Okay, this is gonna be fun. :karma: *cracks knuckles*

To me, this game is an embarrassment to the GS series. It's like the writers aren't trying anymore and are just getting rediculous. Take 4-3 for instance. I'm supposed to believe a 14-year old kid can properly handle a .45 caliber gun after wrestling it away from an experienced bodyguard, and that said kid drags said guard to the stage where he passes out for no reason at all. Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to believe that, I'm supposed to believe that the law officals can believe that.

They also put zero thought into the development of our new characters Apollo and Klavier. We never find out why they became attornies, why they have a passion for the truth, or anything. I can't connect to them. It really keeps me from liking or even caring about them at all. Not like in Phoenix Wright 1 where we find out Phoenix's motive for being a defense attorney, and how it relates to Edgeworth's mysterious past. Sure I hear you guys say "Oh don't worry, we'll find out in future games!" The problem is this game's supposed to make me want to like the new guys and keep buying the games, and in that regard it fails for me.

People also tend to blame the lack of character development on Phoenix for hogging the spotlight, that there wasn't enough room for everyone to get proper storyline. Bullshit. The writers just got lazy by only making four short cases. It wouldn't had killed them to extend the cases and/or add in an extra case or two to get proper character out. In the end it was too short to cover Phoenix's OR Apollo's backstories. You never learn anything about Polly's character, nor do you ever find out what happened with Phoenix's old friends, or even how he was able to arrange the jury system when he still had that disbarment on his record. In trying to cover multiple characters in a short game like this neither side gets enough story and it just leaves everyone in the dark.

Speaking off our favorite spikey haired lawyer, I was really ticked off when I found out Phoenix was disbarred and ended up as a deadbeat piano/poker player who barely makes the income to support his new daughter. I mean, the writers didn't just take his badge and calling in life, they kicked him in the family jewels and tossed him out on the streets. Nice way to treat the old hero we've grown to love for three games. Also bad was the circumstances of how it happened, the villan's motive was nothing but petty jealousy, his client withheld the evidence that could save the case, and no one even questioned how Klavier was so prepared for the forgery to be presented.

One particular line really confused me: "Trucy was the only thing that kept me going after that incident." So let me get this straight, this is some kind bizarre AU where Maya and Pearl don't exist? Some on this forum will argue these two have no time for him anymore thanks to the village getting more buisness. Yeah right, you seriously expect us to believe the two closest people in Phoenix's life couldn't be bothered to even comfort him in his time of need? They couldn't let him stay over at the village or at least provide him with some money here and there until his life recovers? And where's Edgeworth, Gumshoe and Franny, trying to dig up info about the forgery incident and trying to find out the truth? I would think Franny of all people would want him to get his badge back so she could defeat him.

Whatever happened to the morals we learned in the past three games where friends will always be there for you to help you in your time of need? They just threw all that out the window along with the majority of the old cast and effort in plot writing.

The percieve system was also really lame, despite the hype for it. Having to reread a slow moving testimony over and over trying to find that nervous twitch is just boring and tedious. And so what if a witness is nervous? They're in court testifying about a murder, I'd be just as nervous about it weither what I was saying was the truth or not.

Apollo: You scratched your nose so you're lying!
Witness: Okay you caught me!

And when you consider you still have to prove the lie with evidence, it makes the whole thing just an unnessesary speed bump on the road to Notguiltyville.

Why can't you repsent profiles either? I would had loved to get some reaction to certain characters of what they think of others. This could had also given us a chance to get some background about the new characters, but nope. Laaaaaaaaaaaaazy writers.

Another thing is the lack of excitement in this game. Apollo never gets his life put on the line or even a sense of danger to his job. Compare that to AA1, where Phoenix gets put on trial for murder and must represent himself, he and Maya almost get erased by the mafia, and he gets tasered by Manfred. Apollo dosen't even get a toupee to the face. (okay, so he gets snackoo'd at one point, but Ema does that to everyone) Sure Wocky almost dies of a bullet wound and Vera gets poisoned near the end, but I'm talking about things that directly affect the main character.

Regarding Klavier's "nice guy" style, I admit it was a good change of pace for the prosecution in character, but not for the gamer. Unlike with Payne, Edgeworth, Manfred, Franny or Godot, you never get the sense that you royally owned the prosecution in the end of the trial. One of the best things about winning the case in previous games is rubbing it in their face, but you never get that thrill in these cases. He dosen't have to be an evil jackass, but on the flipside he shouldn't hand you your victories on a silver platter either.

This game's like Baby's First Ace Attorney, with all the challenge, plot and excitement taken out and replaced with cheap playful gimmicks and everyone spoonfeeding you the answers. I'm glad I only borrowed a friend's copy of this game to play it cause there's no way in hell I'd ever buy it, or any other title in the AJ series if they keep this up. I can only hope they do well with Edgeworth's game, cause otherwise the GS series will basically be over for me.
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Last edited by DynoStretch on Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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MezzoForte wrote:
*looksbothways*

I didn't like Klavier. The way the trials went with him was just....ugh. Him helping out Apollo like every 5 seconds just pissed me off. >__>;;;

*killed by rabid fangirls*


and fanboys >_>

klavi and krissi are the reasons this games selled so much

:pft:
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Quote:
Okay, this is gonna be fun. :karma: *cracks knuckles*

To me, this game is an embarrassment to the GS series. It's like the writers aren't trying anymore and are just getting rediculous. Take 4-3 for instance. I'm supposed to believe a 14-year old kid can properly handle a .45 caliber gun after wrestling it away from an experienced bodyguard, and that said kid drags said guard to the stage where he passes out for no reason at all. Oh, wait, I'm not supposed to believe that, I'm supposed to believe that the law officals can believe that.

They also put zero thought into the development of our new characters Apollo and Klavier. We never find out why they became attornies, why they have a passion for the truth, or anything. I can't connect to them. It really keeps me from liking or even caring about them at all. Not like in Phoenix Wright 1 where we find out Phoenix's motive for being a defense attorney, and how it relates to Edgeworth's mysterious past. Sure I hear you guys say "Oh don't worry, we'll find out in future games!" The problem is this game's supposed to make me want to like the new guys and keep buying the games, and in that regard it fails for me.

People also tend to blame the lack of character development on Phoenix for hogging the spotlight, that there wasn't enough room for everyone to get proper storyline. Bullshit. The writers just got lazy by only making four short cases. It wouldn't had killed them to extend the cases and/or add in an extra case or two to get proper character out. In the end it was too short to cover Phoenix's OR Apollo's backstories. You never learn anything about Polly's character, nor do you ever find out what happened with Phoenix's old friends, or even how he was able to arrange the jury system when he still had that disbarment on his record. In trying to cover multiple characters in a short game like this neither side gets enough story and it just leaves everyone in the dark.

Speaking off our favorite spikey haired lawyer, I was really ticked off when I found out Phoenix was disbarred and ended up as a deadbeat piano/poker player who barely makes the income to support his new daughter. I mean, the writers didn't just take his badge and calling in life, they kicked him in the family jewels and tossed him out on the streets. Nice way to treat the old hero we've grown to love for three games. Also bad was the circumstances of how it happened, the villan's motive was nothing but petty jealousy, his client withheld the evidence that could save the case, and no one even questioned how Klavier was so prepared for the forgery to be presented.

One particular line really confused me: "Trucy was the only thing that kept me going after that incident." So let me get this straight, this is some kind bizarre AU where Maya and Pearl don't exist? Some on this forum will argue these two have no time for him anymore thanks to the village getting more buisness. Yeah right, you seriously expect us to believe the two closest people in Phoenix's life couldn't be bothered to even comfort him in his time of need? They couldn't let him stay over at the village or at least provide him with some money here and there until his life recovers? And where's Edgeworth, Gumshoe and Franny, trying to dig up info about the forgery incident and trying to find out the truth? I would think Franny of all people would want him to get his badge back so she could defeat him.

Whatever happened to the morals we learned in the past three games where friends will always be there for you to help you in your time of need? They just threw all that out the window along with the majority of the old cast and effort in plot writing.

The percieve system was also really lame, despite the hype for it. Having to reread a slow moving testimony over and over trying to find that nervous twitch is just boring and tedious. And so what if a witness is nervous? They're in court testifying about a murder, I'd be just as nervous about it weither what I was saying was the truth or not.

Apollo: You scratched your nose so you're lying!
Witness: Okay you caught me!

And when you consider you still have to prove the lie with evidence, it makes the whole thing just an unnessesary speed bump on the road to Notguiltyville.

Why can't you repsent profiles either? I would had loved to get some reaction to certain characters of what they think of others. This could had also given us a chance to get some background about the new characters, but nope. Laaaaaaaaaaaaazy writers.

Another thing is the lack of excitement in this game. Apollo never gets his life put on the line or even a sense of danger to his job. Compare that to AA1, where Phoenix gets put on trial for murder and must represent himself, he and Maya almost get erased by the mafia, and he gets tasered by Manfred. Apollo dosen't even get a toupee to the face. (okay, so he gets snackoo'd at one point, but Ema does that to everyone) Sure Wocky almost dies of a bullet wound and Vera gets poisoned near the end, but I'm talking about things that directly affect the main character.

Regarding Klavier's "nice guy" style, I admit it was a good change of pace for the prosecution in character, but not for the gamer. Unlike with Payne, Edgeworth, Manfred, Franny or Godot, you never get the sense that you royally owned the prosecution in the end of the trial. One of the best things about winning the case in previous games is rubbing it in their face, but you never get that thrill in these cases. He dosen't have to be an evil jackass, but on the flipside he shouldn't hand you your victories on a silver platter either.

This game's like Baby's First Ace Attorney, with all the challenge, plot and excitement taken out and replaced with cheap playful gimmicks and everyone spoonfeeding you the answers. I'm glad I only borrowed a friend's copy of this game to play it cause there's no way in hell I'd ever buy it, or any other title in the AJ series if they keep this up. I can only hope they do well with Edgeworth's game, cause otherwise the GS series will basically be over for me.


Well too bad then. I think you'll be missing out. I felt this game was a great addition to the series but apparently some don't because it's "not exactly 100% like the first three games."

Also considering you only borrowed it I'd have to wonder how much you actually played since it kinda seems like you didn't really play it all that much.

As far as the perceive system goes I like it. It's really no different from the psyche locks to be honest and really Apollo needed his own system. Why copy Phoenix's? We don't need two people who can see psyche locks. Plus as far as character development goes every character got their own piece of development especially in the last case of the game. Call it lame writing all you want but I would rather have these cases than have Apollo take part in copypasta cases that are just like cases from the first three games. Also the game never said that Phoenix's friends abandoned him at all.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Mia_Fey wrote:
Spoiler: 1-5, all of AJ
Well Apollo might have gotten a slap on the wrist, but defense attorneys are supposed to trust their clients. The rookie got taken in by his con-man of a client (which is how Phoenix was viewed by this point in time) and that was bad but not really his fault. Perhaps he'd get a slap on the wrist for being stupid similar to what Edgeworth got in 1-5 and perhaps a bit of investigation into his background (which would be short, sweet, and come up with nothing considering how short Apollo's career had been so far). I can't see him getting anything more and the game doesn't seem to suggest that anything more would happen to him.

[snipped part about Kristoph vs. Phoenix]


Anyway, we seem to have strayed some from the point of this thread, so perhaps we should get it back on topic. :)


Spoiler: all of AJ
OK, point taken about Kristoph vs. Phoenix, and thanks again for long, good posts that force me to seriously reevaluate and think hard about my original assumptions and beliefs about the game.

The one thing that bothers me about your explanation, however, is how Phoenix does give the car to Apollo - through Trucy. It gives him plausbile deniability. You think that, if he were pressed, he would go, "Oh yes, I told my daughter to recreate that evidence, and yes, it's mine" but there's the possiblity that he could have said, "What? No, I don't control my daughter, it's not mine, I didn't make it." If he really wanted to make sure he would be blamed for it he would have given the card himself; otherwise the situation could have played out just like Phoenix's did seven years prior. Did he just not trust Apollo or think that he wouldn't trust the evidence if Phoenix himself gave to him?

Actually, I don't even know why Phoenix got such a bum rap there. Didn't the judge say something like it wouldn't matter what Phoenix said, he would be in big trouble anyway?


Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Also considering you only borrowed it I'd have to wonder how much you actually played since it kinda seems like you didn't really play it all that much.

As far as the perceive system goes I like it. It's really no different from the psyche locks to be honest and really Apollo needed his own system. Why copy Phoenix's? We don't need two people who can see psyche locks. Plus as far as character development goes every character got their own piece of development especially in the last case of the game. Call it lame writing all you want but I would rather have these cases than have Apollo take part in copypasta cases that are just like cases from the first three games. Also the game never said that Phoenix's friends abandoned him at all.


ROFL, I'm going to have to question if you played the game or not.
Spoiler: 3-5
3-5 showed that Edgeworth could see them too just as long as he had the Magatama.

They've had no problem passing on the Magatama to others, if they so desired to Apollo could have inherited it from Phoenix after he joined the Wright Anything Agency.

Still, I'm going to agree that they needed a new system since they were already getting away from the spiritual aspect by dumping Kurain, Maya, Mia, and Pearl. Also, the game doesn't say that? Then why didn't the writers ever write anything in? They could have just as easily had Phoenix say something as "Yeah, Maya had returned to Kurain beacuse she was now the Master of the technique, and Pearl went with her" to explain why they didn't show up at all to support Phoenix just after he was disbarred, but there's nothing. Nothing. It's as if they never existed.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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hbdragon88 wrote:
Spoiler: all of AJ
OK, point taken about Kristoph vs. Phoenix, and thanks again for long, good posts that force me to seriously reevaluate and think hard about my original assumptions and beliefs about the game.

The one thing that bothers me about your explanation, however, is how Phoenix does give the car to Apollo - through Trucy. It gives him plausbile deniability. You think that, if he were pressed, he would go, "Oh yes, I told my daughter to recreate that evidence, and yes, it's mine" but there's the possiblity that he could have said, "What? No, I don't control my daughter, it's not mine, I didn't make it." If he really wanted to make sure he would be blamed for it he would have given the card himself; otherwise the situation could have played out just like Phoenix's did seven years prior. Did he just not trust Apollo or think that he wouldn't trust the evidence if Phoenix himself gave to him?


Spoiler: 4-1
Recall that Phoenix was searched when arrested and if he had the card when arrested it would have been added into evidence, so it would have to be Trucy who kept the card. If the card was confiscated, then Phoenix would have lost his control over it. His plan only works because of how careful he was about using that card. It also doesn't seem hard to believe that Phoenix was worried that things might get crazy after such a revelation (he had just accused his friend and defense attorney of murder) and so he had Trucy hold onto it even during the trial so that he could be absolutely sure that he would always have control over when and how that card appeared instead of everything being subject to the whims of the court (if she was in court, then they may have had signals worked out to let her know when to pass off the card or he may just have told her to come to Defendant's Lobby at some set point in time and pass off the card to whoever was there). Besides, I'm not sure that it would be possible for Trucy to give something to her father while he was in custody. He was a prisoner and would have been carefully watched by guards who would have noticed something being handed to him, unlike Apollo who was just a defense attorney and would not have required any special attention. Remember, if the card is confiscated, then Phoenix couldn't control how it was used. He had a specific use in mind for that card and, for that to work, he needed to have control over that card at all times. Phoenix does specifically say that card was his (his first words when it comes up are something like "Oh, that card? It's mine.") and that he handed it off to his daughter for safekeeping which does show that he is claiming responsibility for that card being in court. I hope that addresses your point. :)

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Quote:
Well too bad then. I think you'll be missing out. I felt this game was a great addition to the series but apparently some don't because it's "not exactly 100% like the first three games."


I dunno about other people, but I'm not saying I want a game that's 100% like the other games, I just want one that's better or at least on par with the others in quality.

Quote:
Also considering you only borrowed it I'd have to wonder how much you actually played since it kinda seems like you didn't really play it all that much.


I actully played through the whole thing thank you very much. :keiko:

Quote:
As far as the perceive system goes I like it. It's really no different from the psyche locks to be honest and really Apollo needed his own system. Why copy Phoenix's? We don't need two people who can see psyche locks.


The difference is the psyche locks are definite proof someone is hiding something. A nervous twitch could be for any reason. I tend to rub the underside of my nose a lot, dosen't mean I'm lying. And I'm not saying I want the psyche locks to be forced in, I just want to see something more creative and makes some form of sense.

Quote:
Plus as far as character development goes every character got their own piece of development especially in the last case of the game.


Apollo: I'm still a rookie!
Trucy: I'm still a borderline Mary-Sue, oh, and maybe I'm sad on the inside but I never show any hints of it at all!
Klavier: I'M A ROCKSTAAAAAR!!! ...oh, and I may have been the one who prosecuted Phoenix's last case, but who cares? I'M A ROCKSTAAAAR!!!
Kristoph: I'm jealous of Phoenix! WAAAAAHHHHHH! :sob:
Judge: I like mittens. :D

Quote:
Call it lame writing all you want but I would rather have these cases than have Apollo take part in copypasta cases that are just like cases from the first three games.


If they were just like cases from the first three games at least they would had been good and believable.

Quote:
Also the game never said that Phoenix's friends abandoned him at all.


Maybe, maybe not, but considering Phoenix played such a vital role in the story we would had gotten more of a mention about them then just a stack of DVDs sent by a "kid".

Quote:
They've had no problem passing on the Magatama to others, if they so desired to Apollo could have inherited it from Phoenix after he joined the Wright Anything Agency.


Um, the Magatama is a priceless gift from one of Phoenix's closest friends. He only loaned it to Edgeworth for a day so he could help in Iris' case. He'd never just give it up to anyone else, that'd be like giving away a gift from a family member.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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hbdragon88 wrote:
[

ROFL, I'm going to have to question if you played the game or not.
Spoiler: 3-5
3-5 showed that Edgeworth could see them too just as long as he had the Magatama.

They've had no problem passing on the Magatama to others, if they so desired to Apollo could have inherited it from Phoenix after he joined the Wright Anything Agency.

Still, I'm going to agree that they needed a new system since they were already getting away from the spiritual aspect by dumping Kurain, Maya, Mia, and Pearl. Also, the game doesn't say that? Then why didn't the writers ever write anything in? They could have just as easily had Phoenix say something as "Yeah, Maya had returned to Kurain beacuse she was now the Master of the technique, and Pearl went with her" to explain why they didn't show up at all to support Phoenix just after he was disbarred, but there's nothing. Nothing. It's as if they never existed.


Um yeah I did play the games so don't even try to pull that crap on me.

Why would Phoenix pass the magatama on to Apollo? The only reason he passed it on to Edgeworth in 3-5 was because he was in the hospital at the time and with Apollo's power there's no reason for him to have the magatama.

The writers made mention of Maya still existing so don't say that the writers "threw Maya, Pearl, etc. out of Phoenix's life because they didn't. Considering they had nothing to do with the overall plot at least they GOT a passing mention. At least that shows they still exist. Sorry I can't be like you and BAWWWW about how Edgeworth didn't come back to try and save the day during the 4-4 flashback.

EDIT: Sorry that sounded a little harsh but to be honest that's really how I feel about you AJ haters at this point. Look they're gone. They moved on with rheir lives. They still exist and they still get mentioned isn't it enough?

DarkWobbuffet wrote:

I dunno about other people, but I'm not saying I want a game that's 100% like the other games, I just want one that's better or at least on par with the others in quality.


I felt it had just as much quality as the first three. But heck at least I liked the filler cases in AJ. I found most of the filler cases in the first three games to be just plain boring. I'm not saying I didn't like those cases but I always wanted to finish them fast just to get to the last one or two cases which was like the best part of each of the first three games. And AJ's last case was no exception.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
I actully played through the whole thing thank you very much. :keiko:


It sounded like you played through only the first two so I apologize...

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
The difference is the psyche locks are definite proof someone is hiding something. A nervous twitch could be for any reason. I tend to rub the underside of my nose a lot, dosen't mean I'm lying. And I'm not saying I want the psyche locks to be forced in, I just want to see something more creative and makes some form of sense.


I don't see how it doesn't make much sense. It was explained in depth how the power works and that those nervous twitches are recalling a memory. Besides a new character calls for a brand new system of doing things. Besides it's not like they confess the second Apollo fingers them. He has to do what Phoenix did with the psyche locks and present evidence. It's basically an in court version of the psyche locks and I think it's a rather neat concept. I mean just imagine if Phoenix had that in the first three games.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Apollo: I'm still a rookie!
Trucy: I'm still a borderline Mary-Sue, oh, and maybe I'm sad on the inside but I never show any hints of it at all!
Klavier: I'M A ROCKSTAAAAAR!!! ...oh, and I may have been the one who prosecuted Phoenix's last case, but who cares? I'M A ROCKSTAAAAR!!!
Kristoph: I'm jealous of Phoenix! WAAAAAHHHHHH! :sob:
Judge: I like mittens. :D


Even if Phoenix was the one behind the Jurist system Apollo was the defense attorney who made it through the case. I would say he's less of a rookie by now. Especially since it's called Turnabout Successor. Proving he's become Phoenix's true successor and I'm sure that will be seen in future games.

Trucy is no where close to being a Mary Sue. Besides you could say that about Maya too ya know. I find Trucy to be a real interesting character. It's not Trucy's fault though that the gramayre family contains less issues than the Fey's did.

As for Klavier... That's just dead wrong.

and Kristoph was far more of an evil mastermind than that.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
If they were just like cases from the first three games at least they would had been good and believable.


Yeah we should have had Phoenix die in case 2 and Apollo defend Trucy. Oh and Klavier should be afraid of earthquakes and be put on trial in case 4 because of the incident where he killed his dad in an elevator in Germany.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Maybe, maybe not, but considering Phoenix played such a vital role in the story we would had gotten more of a mention about them then just a stack of DVDs sent by a "kid".


But Phoenix has always referred to Maya as a kid. It's not exactly a huge stretch to see him doing it now. In his mind Maya is still the childish Maya he's always known. I mean she wanted him to write reports about the DVDs for goodness sake. Plus if Edgeworth and Fransizka are out of the country no way are we going to hear from them. I mean heck going by 3-5 it seems like Edgeworth didn't even know what was going on at Hazakura Temple until Larry called him so how would he know about this? And hey at least Gumshoe got a cameo.

Speaking of which Ema did make a passing remark about Edgeworth at one point when she described what a prosecutor should be so it's not like he's disappeared either. Maybe they'll get mentioned in GS5 but really why would Phoenix have to tell Apollo everything about his personal life? He isn't that kind of person. Heck just look at game 2 he didn't even want to tell Maya what happened to Edgeworth. Fransizka had to force it out of him for Maya to even find out.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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I have to admit, the line about only Trucy being around to help Phoenix through that time did rile a bit. Indeed, for the most part it did seem Maya and Pearl did not exist, though we can rationalise why but never know for sure. Maybe this is part due to a different translation team to before...?
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Mayhem wrote:
I have to admit, the line about only Trucy being around to help Phoenix through that time did rile a bit. Indeed, for the most part it did seem Maya and Pearl did not exist, though we can rationalise why but never know for sure. Maybe this is part due to a different translation team to before...?


Spoiler: 4-4
Well let's not forget Phoenix's ending words. He tells Thalassa that he'll be sure to keep watching over Apollo and Trucy because they are very important to him now too. This indicates that, while Apollo and Trucy are certainly a big part of his life, that he has other important people around as well. The fact that we don't don't see his old friends doesn't mean they aren't there, particularly when there are references made to them. Phoenix really didn't have any reason to lecture Apollo on a bunch a people who Apollo had never even met. I honestly don't see why the fact that his daughter became a central part of his life would mean that his friends weren't there. Isn't that a fairly normal reaction for a parent, particularly a developing parent? The relationship between a father and daughter is very different from the relationship between friends and I would expect them to treat it as such (which they did). She's his little girl and he loves her, but this doesn't mean that he's stopped caring for his friends. It just shows his development into a father in which Trucy became one of the most important people in his life (as she should be).

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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Quote:
I felt it had just as much quality as the first three. But heck at least I liked the filler cases in AJ. I found most of the filler cases in the first three games to be just plain boring. I'm not saying I didn't like those cases but I always wanted to finish them fast just to get to the last one or two cases which was like the best part of each of the first three games. And AJ's last case was no exception.


I dunno, I for one enjoyed all the cases in the PW series, even the filler ones, like the highly criticized 2-3. To be honest I actully liked 4-1 and 4-2 to a degree, but frankly I feel like the writers did the exact opposite with this game that they did with the originals. In PW1, 2 and 3 they made a 'meh' first case, and as the cases continue they get better and better until the final case which blows you away. AJ starts out with an epically awesome first case but falls on it's face about halfway through and dies by the final one.

Quote:
It sounded like you played through only the first two so I apologize...


Ah it's cool man. :sawit:

Quote:
Even if Phoenix was the one behind the Jurist system Apollo was the defense attorney who made it through the case. I would say he's less of a rookie by now. Especially since it's called Turnabout Successor. Proving he's become Phoenix's true successor and I'm sure that will be seen in future games.


But it's not just his skill that I care about, I also want to care about his character. Why did he become a lawyer? Why is he so concerned with helping people? Couldn't they had found a way for Apollo to bring this up and have it relate to the trials in the game? I wanted to connect with Apollo like I connected to Phoenix when I found out the truth in 1-4 about the classroom trial. I didn't connect to Apollo at all in this game, it felt like he was just there to exist.

Quote:
Trucy is no where close to being a Mary Sue. Besides you could say that about Maya too ya know. I find Trucy to be a real interesting character. It's not Trucy's fault though that the gramayre family contains less issues than the Fey's did.


You kidding? I write fan fiction as a hobby, and while I'm not perfect at it, I for one try to avoid creating the horror that is a Mary-Sue, so I know what not to do when making one. Girl with mysterious, deeply significant past and unique abilities. Never in the wrong mood. Outstanding personality. Likes all, is liked by all. No problems whatsoever. Criminally cute. I admit she makes me smile, but I can't care for her as a character.

Maya a Mary-Sue? Hardly. She's a far more developed character than Trucy. Throughout the first game you can see her struggling with feelings of being useless, and the sadness of her family's tragic past. Maya is also far from perfect. She can be a pain in the neck at times, and perky to the point of being childish, but it's quirks like that that make me enjoy her character moreso. She's more believable then Trucy. Take in 1-2 when she heard her sister's voice over the phone recording, that really touched my heart and made me really appricate her character for the first time. I never got that sense with Trucy.

Quote:
As for Klavier... That's just dead wrong.


Okay so maybe I exaggerated a bit but you have to admit they spent more time pimping out his rock star gimmick then ever reflecting on his character. In doing so, they left out all the details that we would actully care about. Why does he care about the truth so much? Does this conflict with what occurs when he has a personal stake in the matter, like in case 4-3 or 4-4? We never find out about any of it. Also, the chances for his personal issues over facing Apollo, who put away his brother are never taken.

Quote:
and Kristoph was far more of an evil mastermind than that.


Yes I admit he is nasty, conniving and diabolical... but he's also ridiculous.

His motive for everything he did was just pathetically stupid. He's jealous that Zak fired him and hired Phoenix instead? That's why Kristoph ruined his life? Seriously? Now you might try to tell me, 'Well, we don't get to see into Kristoph's mind, and probably never because of the black psyche locks." And that's what makes him fail. I wanna see WHY he's like this.

Compare it to Manfred von Karma, whom we see over and over speak of his perfectionist ways, and even freaked out when he couldn't guess how long a trial would last. It let me connect to his character, and made his motive more understandable by the end.

Quote:
Yeah we should have had Phoenix die in case 2 and Apollo defend Trucy. Oh and Klavier should be afraid of earthquakes and be put on trial in case 4 because of the incident where he killed his dad in an elevator in Germany.


That may as well been what happened, since the new characters feel like slightly tweaked, less developed cardboard cutouts of the original cast with more gimmicks slapped onto them.

Quote:
Plus if Edgeworth and Fransizka are out of the country no way are we going to hear from them. I mean heck going by 3-5 it seems like Edgeworth didn't even know what was going on at Hazakura Temple until Larry called him so how would he know about this? And hey at least Gumshoe got a cameo.


If cases 1-4, 2-4 and 3-5 is any proof, Phoenix's friends would go to hell and back for him. Trying to say Edgeworth didn't try to help him because he never heard about it is bull. You seriously don't think Edgeworth wouldn't had heard about the famous defense attorney Phoenix Wright losing his badge from forged evidence, Gumshoe calling and telling him, or at least checking in on him from time to time and finding this out? Even if they have their own lives, I'd suspect they would at least try to keep in touch with each other.

Also in the flashback case in 4-4, we basically get zero reference to his friends, even when it's in his point of view. He dosen't even mention Mia by her name, and just calls her "my mentor". It feels like a bunch of new writers who don't know jack about the old cast did this game.

Quote:
Maybe they'll get mentioned in GS5 but really why would Phoenix have to tell Apollo everything about his personal life? He isn't that kind of person. Heck just look at game 2 he didn't even want to tell Maya what happened to Edgeworth. Fransizka had to force it out of him for Maya to even find out.


I don't expect Phoenix to tell Apollo his friend's lifestories, but then again think about how Apollo is a part of Phoenix's life now, and you'd think he would eventually meet or see pictures of people he's connected to. Maybe they'll do it in GS5, but we can't be too sure of that. Regarding not telling Maya about the whole thing with Edgeworth, he pretty much hated Edgeworth for leaving the way he did, and he never wanted to bring it up. I highly doubt he has any grudge with Maya, Edgeworth or the others these days.

Oh, and Tomoshibi, I hate to tell you how to post things on this forum, but this topic's about what we hate about the game. I understand you like the game and all and want to defend it, but there's no need to come in here and try to denounce everything we hate. There are other topics for that kind of thing.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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DarkWobbuffet wrote:

I dunno, I for one enjoyed all the cases in the PW series, even the filler ones, like the highly criticized 2-3. To be honest I actully liked 4-1 and 4-2 to a degree, but frankly I feel like the writers did the exact opposite with this game that they did with the originals. In PW1, 2 and 3 they made a 'meh' first case, and as the cases continue they get better and better until the final case which blows you away. AJ starts out with an epically awesome first case but falls on it's face about halfway through and dies by the final one.


As I said it's not that I hated the filler cases it's just that I didn't like them as much as the main plot ones and I felt like I was dragging through the filler cases just to get to the really good ones I couldn't wait to see. With GS4 I didn't really feel that way I actually enjoyed the filler cases as it really developed Apollo and Trucy's relationship as teammates and the characters in the filler cases didn't annoy me half as much as the one's from the first three games. Most of the one shot side characters from the first three games were in my view very annoying.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Ah it's cool man. :sawit:


glad things are cool then.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
But it's not just his skill that I care about, I also want to care about his character. Why did he become a lawyer? Why is he so concerned with helping people? Couldn't they had found a way for Apollo to bring this up and have it relate to the trials in the game? I wanted to connect with Apollo like I connected to Phoenix when I found out the truth in 1-4 about the classroom trial. I didn't connect to Apollo at all in this game, it felt like he was just there to exist.


You have to remember though that the first game was a one shot game and that Edgeworth did tie into Phoenix's past. Outside of Lamiroir no one really tied into Apollo's past so it's understandable that at the moment there's no reason for Apollo to divulge his reasons as to why he became a lawyer. We can assume he became a lawyer because he wanted to help people, but nevertheless I feel that before Apollo's story comes to a close it will be explained. Not everything has to be explained in the first game after all.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
You kidding? I write fan fiction as a hobby, and while I'm not perfect at it, I for one try to avoid creating the horror that is a Mary-Sue, so I know what not to do when making one. Girl with mysterious, deeply significant past and unique abilities. Never in the wrong mood. Outstanding personality. Likes all, is liked by all. No problems whatsoever. Criminally cute. I admit she makes me smile, but I can't care for her as a character.

Maya a Mary-Sue? Hardly. She's a far more developed character than Trucy. Throughout the first game you can see her struggling with feelings of being useless, and the sadness of her family's tragic past. Maya is also far from perfect. She can be a pain in the neck at times, and perky to the point of being childish, but it's quirks like that that make me enjoy her character moreso. She's more believable then Trucy. Take in 1-2 when she heard her sister's voice over the phone recording, that really touched my heart and made me really appricate her character for the first time. I never got that sense with Trucy.


And I'll be saying this until I'm blue in the face but Trucy is just Maya with a brain and without the the damsel in distress persona Maya had throughout every single game. Besides how was Trucy finding out about her fathers death any less strange than Maya's reaction to her mothers death? They both used that "I knew they were alive somewhere but I have to be strong for the people I care about" excuse.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Okay so maybe I exaggerated a bit but you have to admit they spent more time pimping out his rock star gimmick then ever reflecting on his character. In doing so, they left out all the details that we would actully care about. Why does he care about the truth so much? Does this conflict with what occurs when he has a personal stake in the matter, like in case 4-3 or 4-4? We never find out about any of it. Also, the chances for his personal issues over facing Apollo, who put away his brother are never taken.


I thought it was obvious that the flashback case led to many of Klaviers reasons as to why he is the way he is now. That case left a lot of personal issues in him especially his own suspicions towards his brother, and you could see he was suffering through it through 4-4. All he wanted were answers to his questions, and instead of brooding on it like Edgeworth did for 15 years Klavier actually did something about it. Again as he stated he was tired of the angst scene and as it shows he's more of a laid back type of character than a heaping pile of angst.

Also lets face it Fransizka wanted to beat Phoenix for personal reasons not revenge against her father. Klavier probably wanted to test Apollo not get revenge for what happened to Kristoph and it seems like unlike the first three prosecutors Klavier actually does his homework for cases. Also we've been learning since 2-4 that defense attorney's and prosecutors should work together towards finding the truth so why can't that be true now? Klavier's just a laid back 2-4 Edgeworth without all the angsty angst.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Yes I admit he is nasty, conniving and diabolical... but he's also ridiculous.

His motive for everything he did was just pathetically stupid. He's jealous that Zak fired him and hired Phoenix instead? That's why Kristoph ruined his life? Seriously? Now you might try to tell me, 'Well, we don't get to see into Kristoph's mind, and probably never because of the black psyche locks." And that's what makes him fail. I wanna see WHY he's like this.

Compare it to Manfred von Karma, whom we see over and over speak of his perfectionist ways, and even freaked out when he couldn't guess how long a trial would last. It let me connect to his character, and made his motive more understandable by the end.


It's all about reputation so I don't see how it's as stupid as you say it is. Considering you brought up Manfred he shot a guy because of a penalty I mean how can you not say that's just as stupid a reason? Besides I think it was pretty obvious how evil and mentally disturbed Kristoph was. You didn't even figure that out about Manfred until he tasered you.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
That may as well been what happened, since the new characters feel like slightly tweaked, less developed cardboard cutouts of the original cast with more gimmicks slapped onto them.


And I don't think that's fair to say because they are interesting and unique new characters with lots of room to grow and really we're judging them based on the first game. I think it's unfair to hate the entire AJ series based on that especially if your main reason for hating it is because Phoenix is a hobo and his friends didn't show up every five seconds for some fanservice. Give it another game or two before judging it.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
If cases 1-4, 2-4 and 3-5 is any proof, Phoenix's friends would go to hell and back for him. Trying to say Edgeworth didn't try to help him because he never heard about it is bull. You seriously don't think Edgeworth wouldn't had heard about the famous defense attorney Phoenix Wright losing his badge from forged evidence, Gumshoe calling and telling him, or at least checking in on him from time to time and finding this out? Even if they have their own lives, I'd suspect they would at least try to keep in touch with each other.

Also in the flashback case in 4-4, we basically get zero reference to his friends, even when it's in his point of view. He dosen't even mention Mia by her name, and just calls her "my mentor". It feels like a bunch of new writers who don't know jack about the old cast did this game.


The point is that even though Phoenix's bonds with his friends are strong they can't always be there to bail him out of everything. Maya and Pearl possibly couldn't leave Kurain because of their responsibilities, Edgeworth and Fransizka have their own careers and maybe couldn't break away from them to help out, Gumshoe probably had lots of other cases to work on, and it's not like Larry would have been any help.

Or we can just assume that while Phoenix kept them in the loop of what was going on he didn't want their help to crack this case. After all this was a personal fight for him he had no reason to drag his friends into his own mess. But hey at least they got mentioned here and there so it's not like they don't exist.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
I don't expect Phoenix to tell Apollo his friend's lifestories, but then again think about how Apollo is a part of Phoenix's life now, and you'd think he would eventually meet or see pictures of people he's connected to. Maybe they'll do it in GS5, but we can't be too sure of that. Regarding not telling Maya about the whole thing with Edgeworth, he pretty much hated Edgeworth for leaving the way he did, and he never wanted to bring it up. I highly doubt he has any grudge with Maya, Edgeworth or the others these days.

Oh, and Tomoshibi, I hate to tell you how to post things on this forum, but this topic's about what we hate about the game. I understand you like the game and all and want to defend it, but there's no need to come in here and try to denounce everything we hate. There are other topics for that kind of thing.


I'm not worried because I feel they'll do it in later games.

And that's all I'm doing is defending the game. I can't do anything about it if you hate it. All I can really say is that you should give it more of a chance. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything if that's what you're getting at.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Quote:
You have to remember though that the first game was a one shot game and that Edgeworth did tie into Phoenix's past. Outside of Lamiroir no one really tied into Apollo's past so it's understandable that at the moment there's no reason for Apollo to divulge his reasons as to why he became a lawyer. We can assume he became a lawyer because he wanted to help people, but nevertheless I feel that before Apollo's story comes to a close it will be explained. Not everything has to be explained in the first game after all.


Thats a problem in and of itself. I don't mind if games connect to each other, but they should be able to be self-sufficent. All the PW games can be played by themselves and still provide complete stories and fully develop every character. AJ2 might be excellent and answer ever single question. But I want something as basic as why he has a "passionate heart burning red" given to me in the first game. This is basic character background, and to go through a whole game without it makes me less of an adhearant to it.

Quote:
And I'll be saying this until I'm blue in the face but Trucy is just Maya with a brain and without the the damsel in distress persona Maya had throughout every single game. Besides how was Trucy finding out about her fathers death any less strange than Maya's reaction to her mothers death? They both used that "I knew they were alive somewhere but I have to be strong for the people I care about" excuse.


I honestly was never a fan of Maya, and found Trucy to be suspiciously adorable. I don't normally find things cute like that. Regardless, even if I like her, she's still a Mary Sue. A teenager who has time to investigate cases, go to school, and be a professional magician? Who is the hier to the Gramarye tradition and the mysterious percieve system? Who has an endlessly endearing upbeat personality? Sue. Don't get me wrong- I like Trucy, but I've read enough bad fanfiction to call a Sue when I see one.

Maya was also a Sue, but to a lesser degree to her valid feelings of uselessness. That is character development, which is a plus.

Quote:
All he wanted were answers to his questions, and instead of brooding on it like Edgeworth did for 15 years Klavier actually did something about it. Again as he stated he was tired of the angst scene and as it shows he's more of a laid back type of character than a heaping pile of angst... Also we've been learning since 2-4 that defense attorney's and prosecutors should work together towards finding the truth so why can't that be true now? Klavier's just a laid back 2-4 Edgeworth without all the angsty angst.


My problems with Klavier are MUCH less character driven than narriative driven. Like I said, he lacks the presence to be a really intimidating foe, which is important to AA. I like the idea, but there was a shoddy excecution.

But the thing with Edgeworth also is that he has to grow to the 2-4 point. He isn't just there, like Klavier. Klav's growth is still there, don't get me wrong, but yet again, I wish I saw seeds of it planted in 4-2 and 4-3, rather than solely in 4-4.

Quote:
It's all about reputation so I don't see how it's as stupid as you say it is. Considering you brought up Manfred he shot a guy because of a penalty I mean how can you not say that's just as stupid a reason? Besides I think it was pretty obvious how evil and mentally disturbed Kristoph was. You didn't even figure that out about Manfred until he tasered you.


That's sort of why I didn't like Kristoph. He was set to quite possibly be the best AA villian ever when you visited him during the MASON system, but turned out to be von Karma redeux. We already had von Karma. The frighteningly perfectionistic main antagonist? Been there, done that. I was expecting something new and exciting, much more than "That guy fired me!", especially from someone with so much promise.

Quote:
And I don't think that's fair to say because they are interesting and unique new characters with lots of room to grow and really we're judging them based on the first game. I think it's unfair to hate the entire AJ series based on that especially if your main reason for hating it is because Phoenix is a hobo and his friends didn't show up every five seconds for some fanservice. Give it another game or two before judging it.


I didn't dislike AJ because of no Pheonix and co. Hell, I was really excited to try something new, as I thought 3-5 was a fitting end to the Pheonix arc. However, the AJ cycle has potential, but as AA4, it still falls short. They need time to grow, but if we look at the character growth PW1 accomplished, we can see that they could've done SO much more.

Quote:
Edgeworth and Fransizka have their own careers and maybe couldn't break away from them to help out


Edgey can break away from everything to save Pheonix in 3-5 but can't find time in SEVEN YEARS to use his influence to help out? Fran is just going to admit she can never best Pheonix Wright, when she wont stop even when she gets shot? I don't know there...

Quote:
I'm not worried because I feel they'll do it in later games.

And that's all I'm doing is defending the game. I can't do anything about it if you hate it. All I can really say is that you should give it more of a chance. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything if that's what you're getting at.


I just feel as though there was SO MUCH potential (i.e. case 1), which was let down on me. And I know there will be later games, but that is no excuse not to make the best product possible. AJ isn't awful. And I don't hate it. But after how much I loved 4-1, and even liked 4-2, I felt as though the last two cases were a total letdown. I still have faith in the AJ cycle, but AJ1 started off on the wrong foot, in my opinion. They tried to hand the baton from Pheonix to Apollo, but in the end, it was still Pheonix's game.

And don't let him get you down. You should defend it if you feel like it. That's how this topic is flowing, anyway.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Anuer wrote:
I honestly was never a fan of Maya, and found Trucy to be suspiciously adorable. I don't normally find things cute like that. Regardless, even if I like her, she's still a Mary Sue. A teenager who has time to investigate cases, go to school, and be a professional magician? Who is the hier to the Gramarye tradition and the mysterious percieve system? Who has an endlessly endearing upbeat personality? Sue. Don't get me wrong- I like Trucy, but I've read enough bad fanfiction to call a Sue when I see one.

Maya was also a Sue, but to a lesser degree to her valid feelings of uselessness. That is character development, which is a plus.


Spoiler: all of AJ
I actually found Trucy's development better wrapped up then Maya's. People always point out that Maya felt useless in 1-4, but that is something that is first introduced in that case and is never explained. Insecurities do not come out of nowhere. They all have to start somewhere, but Maya suddenly starts going on about how insecure she feels and how she isn't good for anything without going into any kind of reason as to why she feels this way which makes it feel thrown in at the last minute particularly with it's revelation in the final case that includes her.

With Trucy though, we get to see her insecurity even if she doesn't collapse about it and it is true that we only see it in brief glances in a couple of places, but brief doesn't immediately mean bad if it is handled well. We learn through the game that she is desperately afraid of losing more important people in her life and of being left behind yet again. Everyone important in her life seems to disappear at one point or another and we do see this insecurity shows up briefly within the game at a couple points. In 4-3 for example, she becomes very worried and her composure breaks some when Apollo makes a joking remark about Phoenix's secret mission being similar to what the victim had been doing ("Oh no! What if you get shot too, Daddy!?"- paraphrased, but close) and is only pacified when Phoenix assures her that he wouldn't do such a thing to her (her reaction actually stuck me as being an odd and rather extreme reaction in the circumstances particularly for such an naturally upbeat girl, but made complete sense by the end of the game as they explain it). We then find out why she is so worried about this in the final case where we find out about her history (and then she asks Phoenix if he's going to vanish as well which broke my heart). So not only do we get a glance at her insecurities, but we find out the reasoning behind them. As a final point, we also learn that she tries to hide all those insecurities deep inside which helps explain earlier parts of the game.

It is true that Maya broke down about her insecurity more, but simply having her talk about it a bunch and never explaining it doesn't make it good character development. While I agree that Trucy needs more development (and the ending is set up to allow for more in the next game), I would say that she came off as being a better rounded character then Maya in the first game. We get to see her insecurity some and then we get to find out why. With Maya, we see her insecurity more, but it is never explained. It pops out of nowhere and feels thrown in at the end. Well at least it did to me.


Anyway, perhaps we should get this thread back on topic.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Anuer wrote:

Thats a problem in and of itself. I don't mind if games connect to each other, but they should be able to be self-sufficent. All the PW games can be played by themselves and still provide complete stories and fully develop every character. AJ2 might be excellent and answer ever single question. But I want something as basic as why he has a "passionate heart burning red" given to me in the first game. This is basic character background, and to go through a whole game without it makes me less of an adhearant to it.


Well I don't really see AJ as a continuation though. I see AJ as the Phoenix Wright GX of the series. Without the whole "get your game on" thing but still... even then we did get a little character background on Apollo even if we didn't get the whole story, and well I think it's obvious that Apollo has a fiery personality thus the passionate heart burning red. Extending the development between the games will lead to it being more surprising. I mean heck we didn't even know much about Mia's life until game 3. Before that she was just Phoenix's dead mentor and Maya's older sister.

But hey at least we can expect the next series after AJ to feature courtroom battles on motorbikes. :gant:

Anuer wrote:
I honestly was never a fan of Maya, and found Trucy to be suspiciously adorable. I don't normally find things cute like that. Regardless, even if I like her, she's still a Mary Sue. A teenager who has time to investigate cases, go to school, and be a professional magician? Who is the hier to the Gramarye tradition and the mysterious percieve system? Who has an endlessly endearing upbeat personality? Sue. Don't get me wrong- I like Trucy, but I've read enough bad fanfiction to call a Sue when I see one.

Maya was also a Sue, but to a lesser degree to her valid feelings of uselessness. That is character development, which is a plus.


I don't see what you mean. After all she lived with Troupe Gramayre for years before the case happened it's obvious that she was taught by her father everything she knows now so it's not hard to believe she's a professional. As for school what about Maya? I mean she was 17 in the first game yet could still tag around with Nick instead of going to school. Not to mention Pearls. Besides if we go by how many cases Apollo got it's not like she was out investigating cases with him all the time. Her daily life was probably school and her performances and helping apollo every few months when he got a case.

As for being the heir to the gramayre tradition. It's not any different than Maya but at least Trucy becoming the heir was explained. So it's not like she just inherited it out of nowhere. Not saying that Maya becoming the master wasn't explained but you get what I mean right?

and the upbeat personality is typical of main female characters I don't see what the problem is there. Besides that I'd call 1-5 Ema more of a sue than Trucy because Ema has the traumatizingly bad past, but then again so does Maya since her mother left her and Mia died. Not to mention being a damsel in distress. Trucy is more of a sidekick if anything I don't see her as much of a sue. The definition fits Maya and even Ema moreso.

Anuer wrote:
My problems with Klavier are MUCH less character driven than narriative driven. Like I said, he lacks the presence to be a really intimidating foe, which is important to AA. I like the idea, but there was a shoddy excecution.

But the thing with Edgeworth also is that he has to grow to the 2-4 point. He isn't just there, like Klavier. Klav's growth is still there, don't get me wrong, but yet again, I wish I saw seeds of it planted in 4-2 and 4-3, rather than solely in 4-4.


Meh well I just feel that the overly intimidating prosecutor image from the first three games has been overdone by this point. I think it's nice to have a change of pace from the prosecutors who fight because of some personal grudge or vendetta against our hero. Besides we didn't need a repeat of the whole perfect win scenario either.

Anuer wrote:
That's sort of why I didn't like Kristoph. He was set to quite possibly be the best AA villian ever when you visited him during the MASON system, but turned out to be von Karma redeux. We already had von Karma. The frighteningly perfectionistic main antagonist? Been there, done that. I was expecting something new and exciting, much more than "That guy fired me!", especially from someone with so much promise.


Well then what kind of motive would you rather he had? Besides I think in a way Kristoph was worse than Von Karma. I mean not only did he ruin the lives of a few innocents he also killed them just to keep his secret from getting out. Von Karma was just a guy who had a temper tantrum and killed a guy over one penalty. I mean heck Von Karma didn't even need to ruin Edgeworth's life Edgeworth did all the work for that on his own.

Anuer wrote:
I didn't dislike AJ because of no Pheonix and co. Hell, I was really excited to try something new, as I thought 3-5 was a fitting end to the Pheonix arc. However, the AJ cycle has potential, but as AA4, it still falls short. They need time to grow, but if we look at the character growth PW1 accomplished, we can see that they could've done SO much more.


And again I don't think that's fair to compare a game that was thought to not have any sequels to a game that's obviously going to have a sequel so it has room to grow and can afford to fall short.

Anuer wrote:
Edgey can break away from everything to save Pheonix in 3-5 but can't find time in SEVEN YEARS to use his influence to help out? Fran is just going to admit she can never best Pheonix Wright, when she wont stop even when she gets shot? I don't know there...


Edgey came to save Phoenix in 3-5 because Larry called him and told him that Nick was near death. He stayed and helped out afterwards mainly because of the Dahlia connection with Iris. I'm not saying Edgeworth and Fransizka would do jack to help Phoenix, but they can't always put down everything just to rush to Phoenix's rescue all the time. Especially if Phoenix told them not to bother. Besides for all we know Edgeworth may have helped Phoenix set up the MASON system you never know.

Anuer wrote:
I just feel as though there was SO MUCH potential (i.e. case 1), which was let down on me. And I know there will be later games, but that is no excuse not to make the best product possible. AJ isn't awful. And I don't hate it. But after how much I loved 4-1, and even liked 4-2, I felt as though the last two cases were a total letdown. I still have faith in the AJ cycle, but AJ1 started off on the wrong foot, in my opinion. They tried to hand the baton from Pheonix to Apollo, but in the end, it was still Pheonix's game.

And don't let him get you down. You should defend it if you feel like it. That's how this topic is flowing, anyway.


The series is taking a new direction with a new cast. I feel that any expectations shouldn't be extremely high like that until at least the second or third game. Give the new cast time to evolve. By saying tha tyou hate the AJ series because it's nothing like the PW arc you're basically comparing a new series to an already completed one. I say that kind of judgment is completely unfair. If we were talking about the last AJ game and comparing it back to the first three games then maybe I'd be more inclined to agree. But really from what I can see the AJ haters aren't really giving the story or the characters a chance to evolve in later games they just want everything now.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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Tomoshibi Amatsu wrote:
Um yeah I did play the games so don't even try to pull that crap on me.


Then don't try to pull the same crap by claiming that people who hate AJ haven't played through the whole game.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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From what I've seen on most sites it seems to be true so I guess that stereotype stuck in my mind.

Especially with the whole "I won't buy anything AJ because it's not like the first three PW games." thing.
Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title
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Quote:
Well I don't really see AJ as a continuation though. I see AJ as the Phoenix Wright GX of the series. Without the whole "get your game on" thing but still... even then we did get a little character background on Apollo even if we didn't get the whole story, and well I think it's obvious that Apollo has a fiery personality thus the passionate heart burning red. Extending the development between the games will lead to it being more surprising. I mean heck we didn't even know much about Mia's life until game 3. Before that she was just Phoenix's dead mentor and Maya's older sister.


Kinda hard not to see this game as a continuation considering they're incorporating old characters into the mix, as opposed to Yu-gi-oh GX where any old characters made really brief cameos.
Regarding Mia, in game one, we also find out she became a lawyer to find out what happened to her lost mother and was trained by Grossberg. That's far more background then Apollo ever got.

Quote:
But hey at least we can expect the next series after AJ to feature courtroom battles on motorbikes. :gant:


Now that I'd pay to play. XD

Quote:
As for being the heir to the gramayre tradition. It's not any different than Maya but at least Trucy becoming the heir was explained. So it's not like she just inherited it out of nowhere. Not saying that Maya becoming the master wasn't explained but you get what I mean right?


Not really, no. All this proves is she's just another young girl with strange powers that's the heir to her families' ways. This just makes her seem like even more of a cardboard cutout Maya.

Quote:
Not to mention being a damsel in distress. Trucy is more of a sidekick if anything I don't see her as much of a sue. The definition fits Maya and even Ema moreso.


Your view on what's a Mary-Sue and what's not seems... kinda off. Plus I couldn't help but notice you never liked Maya, so it kinda makes you seem bias against her. No offense.

Quote:
Meh well I just feel that the overly intimidating prosecutor image from the first three games has been overdone by this point. I think it's nice to have a change of pace from the prosecutors who fight because of some personal grudge or vendetta against our hero. Besides we didn't need a repeat of the whole perfect win scenario either.


I dunno, frankly I enjoyed the whole thrill of being put on the line by a powerful and dangerous prosecutor, because it makes the victory in the end even sweeter then just defeating the murderer. Klavier holds your hand-

*fangirls squeal*

-metaphorically throughout a case and in the end you feel like you didn't accompish as much. It's like entering a pie-eating contest where your toughest rival has a change of heart and helps you eat the rest of your pies. You get the victory but you didn't get the sweet taste of the pie your rival ate for you, or the feeling that you actully beat that rival.

Quote:
Well then what kind of motive would you rather he had? Besides I think in a way Kristoph was worse than Von Karma. I mean not only did he ruin the lives of a few innocents he also killed them just to keep his secret from getting out.


How about this for Kristoph's motive; he and Zak played a high stakes game of poker where Kristoph was cheated out of thousands of dollars by Zak in a crooked game. When Kristoph finds out Zak's been arrested for murdering his teacher and Phoenix, a man that he hates for his methods of defense, is defending him, Kristoph finds a way to kill two birds with one stone and arranges the evidence. Bam, a more realistic motive then jealousy.

Quote:
I mean heck Von Karma didn't even need to ruin Edgeworth's life Edgeworth did all the work for that on his own.


Well Von Karma didn't help in that regard, he took Edgeworth in as his own and raised him to be the ruthless demon prosecutor. He did it as an extra piece of revenge against Gregory. Than he went so far as to help a man kill another and set up Edgeworth as the suspect. That shows just how savage and ruthless he is.

Quote:
And again I don't think that's fair to compare a game that was thought to not have any sequels to a game that's obviously going to have a sequel so it has room to grow and can afford to fall short.


Well like Anuer said, it dosen't matter if AJ2 and 3 are superior to the previous games, came wrapped in solid gold, and included a free coupon for chili fries, it dosen't stop this game from being subpar. A game whose only purpose is to set up future games dosen't speak much for the game itself, and I refuse to pay 35 dollars plus tax for a "starter" game. That's like taking the first three episodes of an anime, putting them on a DVD by themselves, and selling it for 40 dollars with the promise that the rest of the series will continue it.

Quote:
Edgey came to save Phoenix in 3-5 because Larry called him and told him that Nick was near death. He stayed and helped out afterwards mainly because of the Dahlia connection with Iris. I'm not saying Edgeworth and Fransizka would do jack to help Phoenix, but they can't always put down everything just to rush to Phoenix's rescue all the time. Especially if Phoenix told them not to bother. Besides for all we know Edgeworth may have helped Phoenix set up the MASON system you never know.


So you're basically saying he only helped with the case because it was in his own special interest? I find that hard to beleive.

I do agree that Edgeworth might had helped with the MASON system, but for now it's just a theory, not fact. Unless the game answers it we can only make it up in our minds.

Quote:
Especially with the whole "I won't buy anything AJ because it's not like the first three PW games." thing.


Like I said before, I don't want a game that's EXACTLY like the original three games, I just want a game and cast that's better or at the least, on par in QUALITY as the originals, and in comparison to PW1, this one fails miserably. I'm NOT saying I want a PW1 clone, just something that feels like it was made with the same amount of effort.
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Re: What pissed you off in Apollo Justice? SpoilersTopic%20Title

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DarkWobbuffet wrote:

Kinda hard not to see this game as a continuation considering they're incorporating old characters into the mix, as opposed to Yu-gi-oh GX where any old characters made really brief cameos.
Regarding Mia, in game one, we also find out she became a lawyer to find out what happened to her lost mother and was trained by Grossberg. That's far more background then Apollo ever got.


Phoenix is just there to link the two series just like Kaiba was the one who linked Yugioh with Yugioh GX. Outside of Phoenix the rest of the main cast is rarely seen if at all. Actually most of the time in GX you don't really SEE any of the old cast with about three exceptions. Mainly you just hear them get mentioned here and there. it's about the same as what AJ is doing right now. It's not just another Phoenix Wright game AJ is the next generation. Of course the old cast won't be seen as much as the new cast will.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Now that I'd pay to play. XD


I can only wonder how that would work. I know the Judge would have no idea what to do about these new fangled contraptions. XD

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Not really, no.


Well lets just say this then. In the beginning it was established that Maya was going to be the new master. In AJ Trucy directly inherits the gramayre miracle from Zak. She doesn't directly get thrown into it. Trucy earned the right to that inheritance due to the performance rights belonging to Zak beforehand. Maya was just put into the masters position because no one else was there. She didn't even inherit it from her mother either. She just got handed the heiress position because Misty was gone and Mia went off to be a lawyer.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Your view on what's a Mary-Sue and what's not seems... kinda off. Plus I couldn't help but notice you never liked Maya, so it kinda makes you seem bias against her. No offense.


I never said I didn't like Maya. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm just saying that you could say the same things about Maya as you could Trucy. Maya wasn't exactly the pinnacle of deep characterization you know.

As far as my view on Mary Sue's are concerned well it seems one of us is off and I sure as heck know it isn't me.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
I dunno, frankly I enjoyed the whole thrill of being put on the line by a powerful and dangerous prosecutor, because it makes the victory in the end even sweeter then just defeating the murderer. Klavier holds your hand-

*fangirls squeal*

-metaphorically throughout a case and in the end you feel like you didn't accompish as much. It's like entering a pie-eating contest where your toughest rival has a change of heart and helps you eat the rest of your pies. You get the victory but you didn't get the sweet taste of the pie your rival ate for you, or the feeling that you actully beat that rival.


Well maybe I'm just looking more at their character than how tough they are in the courtroom then, but I did that with Edgeworth, Fransizka, and Godot too. As far as I'm concerned Klavier is just as good.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
How about this for Kristoph's motive; he and Zak played a high stakes game of poker where Kristoph was cheated out of thousands of dollars by Zak in a crooked game. When Kristoph finds out Zak's been arrested for murdering his teacher and Phoenix, a man that he hates for his methods of defense, is defending him, Kristoph finds a way to kill two birds with one stone and arranges the evidence. Bam, a more realistic motive then jealousy.


Well it's clear that he hated Phoenix considering he called him a second-rate attorney

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Well Von Karma didn't help in that regard, he took Edgeworth in as his own and raised him to be the ruthless demon prosecutor. He did it as an extra piece of revenge against Gregory. Than he went so far as to help a man kill another and set up Edgeworth as the suspect. That shows just how savage and ruthless he is.


Yeah but part of the reason Edgeworth became the demon prosecutor was because he believed he was at fault for his fathers death.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Well like Anuer said, it dosen't matter if AJ2 and 3 are superior to the previous games, came wrapped in solid gold, and included a free coupon for chili fries, it dosen't stop this game from being subpar. A game whose only purpose is to set up future games dosen't speak much for the game itself, and I refuse to pay 35 dollars plus tax for a "starter" game. That's like taking the first three episodes of an anime, putting them on a DVD by themselves, and selling it for 40 dollars with the promise that the rest of the series will continue it.


And that doesn't happen? Last I checked they did put 3 or 4 episodes on an anime DVD and make you pay 30 to 40 bucks just for those. As far as I'm concerned AJ was worth the money.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
So you're basically saying he only helped with the case because it was in his own special interest? I find that hard to beleive.

I do agree that Edgeworth might had helped with the MASON system, but for now it's just a theory, not fact. Unless the game answers it we can only make it up in our minds.


Why wouldn't it be so hard to believe? Edgeworth basically said he came to make sure that Wright was alright. He didn't come to save the day or anything, but it was Phoenix and Larry pushing him, Phoenix's strong feelings for Iris, and Iris looking like Dahlia that made Edgey give an effort at least. He even makes this clear when he tells Iris that the only way he'll defend her is if she tells Phoenix the truth and that the only reason he stepped into the courtroom was to bring the light out onto the case and then pass it off to Wright. It may seem charitable to you but it seems to me that Edgeworth had his own reasons for wanting to help out.

Just as in 2-4 Edgeworth's goal was to show Phoenixd what he had learned that past year, and to bring that truth to Phoenix as well. Edgeworth doesn't do anything without some personal goal behind it.

DarkWobbuffet wrote:
Like I said before, I don't want a game that's EXACTLY like the original three games, I just want a game and cast that's better or at the least, on par in QUALITY as the originals, and in comparison to PW1, this one fails miserably. I'm NOT saying I want a PW1 clone, just something that feels like it was made with the same amount of effort.


Well I felt that it was just as good as any other PW game out there quality wise, and while you may be saying you don't want it to be exactly like the first three that's how you make it sound. The AJ story fails because it isn't like the PW story, the AJ cast fails because it's not like the PW cast. I mean it seems like you guys are complaining because Maya didn't show up and proclaim her undying love for Phoenix or something from some of the threads I've seen.

To be honest I don't know what the heck your expectations are anymore so fine. You want to hate on AJ and boycott it then go ahead. I'm going to enjoy the series for what it is because I feel it has the same amount of quality as all the past games have.
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