THIS THREAD CONTAINS MASSIVE SPOILERS!!!! YOU ARE WARNED.

First off, this started as a response in another thread. After getting through it all, I realized that it perhaps deserves its own thread, so I'm making it here, now.

Secondly, this thread is meant to address all the people who were dissatisfied with AA4 because they felt Apollo was an uncompelling/underused main character, made worse by Phoenix's taking up all the limelight.

Thirdly, you're free to criticize my theory all you wish. I do not care. So, here it is:

My theory is that Apollo was never meant to be the main protagonist of a series. Apollo was essentially the tool that allowed you to see Phoenix Wright's story while still being an Ace Attorney game. After all, there really couldn't be a game if Phoenix was still the main character. Say all you want about Takumi's "original plans" for the game, and how he was "forced" to include Phoenix -- I'm not buying it. Look at the evidence:

1) The game is called GS4 in Japan, not GS NEW! or something like that. In my estimate, that means it's clearly meant to be a continuation, and not the start of a new series.
2) The game really is about Phoenix, as everybody knows (why this is so bothersome to so many people, I don't know -- I was happy the story was really more about Phoenix)
3) Since Capcom America went on to the whole "main-character-name-in-the-game's-title" thing, they had to change the title for this game. What name did they come up with? Apollo Justice? Wait a minute, A-POLL-O? Justice? Justice might be a very rare last name, but Apollo Justice? It's a joke -- and it's done intentionally -- as it's not a name meant for building a brand with. When I first heard the name was going to be Apollo Justice, I thought Capcom America intentionally came up with something stupid so as to generate disinterest in the new protagonist, which would be persuasive in bringing back Wright for the fifth game.
4) The best evidence is everything mentioned in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9382. Apollo is NOT a main protagonist, he's merely a tool (in the literal sense, not the insult sense). The only thing you don't realize is that he really wasn't ever meant to be the main protagonist. He was intentionally made sucky so as to not get you too disappointed if he didn't appear in the next game (at least not as a main character).
5) Apollo essentially IS Phoenix, just a sucky, slightly less philantropic version of him. I'm talking about the personalities here. For all practical purposes, they're the same. Apollo even has the same views on ladders (erm, stepladders) as Phoenix -- they're like alternate-dimension clones of each other, with one being better than the other. What does this fact mean? It means that AJ is a vehicle that isn't made to make you feel out of place... the main character's personality is pretty much the same as the personality of the main character in the previous three games, the only difference is, he's not the "true" hero, on purpose, because Phoenix is the hero that we've all come to know and love. This is still his series.
6) Finally, we all know what Phoenix says at the end of the game -- "...Or maybe I'll take the bar exam... again."

It all makes sense. This is what Phoenix's name is all about. He, now more than ever, will live up to it. He had his fall, and his redemption was given in AA4. Now in AA5 he will soar again. They'll even have the perfect excuse to the "rookie-syndrom" scenario at the beginning of the game: having not practiced in seven years, Phoenix will be "rusty" and will need to relearn the ropes. It's perfect.

What did the structure of AA4 accomplish for Capcom from a sequel perspective? Flexibility. If people reacted positively to Apollo, they could continue with a spinoff with him, without being constrained by the earlier three games. But they weren't going to ease that constraint with this game -- the game is still all about Phoenix. Essentially Apollo was designed to fail, so there wouldn't be any disappointment when he is left out in the next game. AA4 was just a way to tell a unique story about Phoenix, and it couldn't have been told without Apollo. But now that that's over, Apollo is no longer necessary, and now Capcom can go back to GS5 with a much more complex, rich, and compelling main character.

Which brings me to my second main point, all the hobo-nick bashing. People, PHOENIX WAS ACTING LIKE A DOUCHE TO APOLLO ON PURPOSE!!! It wasn't some "vast" personality change. Phoenix has a pre-meditated attitude around Apollo on purpose; it was all part of a plan so that he could bring the best out of Apollo (and also keep the player wondering). Phoenix's personality did change after losing his badge, but not as much as most forum posters here let on. It changed a little, and what did change made perfect sense.

But remember the sequences where Phoenix is not in Apollo's presence. There's not many of them -- they only occur in the final case. And here, this is where we see the "real" Phoenix, and he hasn't changed too much. He's still deeply passionate about the truth, and even when all the chips are against him, he still helps people in whatever way he can (adopting Trucy). The only thing that's really changed is that his passion has become a lot more passive and veiled -- after all, there was nothing he could directly do to help his situation. People point fingers that in his final trial Phoenix's personality has already changed, charging that he is too cocky, but that's just plain ridiculous. This is essentially the first real case Phoenix has as a "true" veteran (the status he achieved in 1-5 by not using Mia's help), and he is going up against a real rookie. When he internally makes statements like "you're out of your leage, rock-boy," 1) he isn't saying this aloud, so he is not being a douche, 2) he is allowed to think these thoughts validly, because of the status he has now and the status of his opponent, and 3) Phoenix has always made internal sarcastic remarks that don't give his advesaries the benefit of the doubt. Someone can look up the exact line but on more than one occasion Phoenix said some not so nice things about Franzie's whip habbits. The only difference between then and now, was that Phoenix was a true veteran, and wasn't intimidated by his opponents anymore. 4) Klavier was being a douche the whole time to Phoenix. Because his brother told him to. "Don't give him the benefit of your respect" Kristoph says to Klavier. Of course Phoenix was going to take affront to the attitude he was being given.

Now, Phoenix was a bit terse and off-standish around the Misham's and Kristoph (in the 'present') even when not around Apollo, but, again, it's to be expected, because on they were (as he knew) the root reasons for his job being taken away.

Really, I find all the hobo-bashing to be misplaced -- you just need to understand why Phoenix is acting the way he is at certain times. I found his character to be perefectly written given the circumstances, and I enjoyed the turns that it took. I really felt for the guy. When you're playing as him and investigating at Drew Studio in the present, if you examine the gold statue that's giving an "Objection!" pose, you'll get to hear Phoenix's voice shouting "Objection!" as well. To which his inner monologue replies, "I really have to stop doing this to myself..." After all these years, Phoenix is still visibly hurt about having his passion and livelyhood stripped away from him. I COULD JUST FEEL THE PAIN PHOENIX WAS EXPERIENCING at this point. It made me get a little teary-eyed. Poor guy.

Admittedly, normally, I'd be the one upset about the character change like the type in AA4, but I really did like it. I thought things were presented rather believeably as to how a character like Wright would be affected by tragedy. It created a character I like even more now. So, as the type of person who normally wouldn't like the kind of changes brought on by AA4, I did like them.

Also admittedly, my opinion of the AA4 really will be affected by where they go with AA5. If they just completlely abandon the Phoenix character after what they've done with this game, I naturally will be disappointed. To me, they just set it up perfect, the Phoenix's rise, and fall, and re-rising... all we have left to see is him complete the final stage by letting him become a lawyer again. So, to me, there's still at least another game left in this guy, and if they just abandon him for good... well, that would be unfortunate. Especially considering, as the pointed out in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9382, how uncompelling a character AJ is.

So, in conclusion -- I say the reason why you're disappointed with Apollo is because you were supposed to be. My theory is that Phoenix will be back in the defense booth in AA5.

Last edited by hannedog on Thu May 15, 2008 9:42 am, edited 3 times in total.

Where to begin, where to begin.

First off, you make some fallacious and simply wrong assumptions right off the bat.

Capcom called it Gyakuten Saiban 4, because... it's the fourth game in the GS series. That doesn't mean it needs to have the same protagonist, just like the Resident Evil/Biohazard games don't need to have the same protagonist. Gyakuten Kenji is different in gameplay, hence the different name--it's not just because of a new protagonist. Furthermore, you somehow use Apollo's name against him when it's not Apollo but Odoroki Housuke that matters, and when do people in the GS series *not* have punny names?

Also, you make another wrong assumption in assuming people didn't like Apollo. I *adored* Apollo; he was fun and refreshing and new. I feel he was a flat character who was overshadowed by Phoenix and consequently never got time to develop and come into his own, and that's a damn shame because I loved him.

The rest of your points are, to be honest... really, really nonsensical and poorly laid out. So... yeah. Have fun with this.

Hobo-Phoenix was ten times the problem for AA4 than Apollo was, in my eyes.

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1) The Resident Evil series do all follow the same 'set' of protagonists -- they're all tied together very intricately, and are not made to be separate from one another. Furthermore, I'm not saying the title numbering is any kind of hard, concrete proof, I'm just pointing it out. It's a convenient little fact.

For example, another Capcom series where the numbering has changed are the Megaman series. When the game changed to Megaman "X", it did become an entirely new series, with the old main protagonist nowhere in sight, and only cameos from older characters. The same thing, essentially, with the other Megaman spinoffs. However, Capcom kept the GS numbering system, and, guess what, the game is about Phoenix Wright, not Apollo Justice.

2) I'm talking about Capcom America, not Capcom Japan with the naming of Apollo Justice. Capcom America wanted to name him something silly so he would fail. The character's Japanese name was irrelevant because the character's name is not in the title (i.e. GS4). The reason why Capcom America named him Apollo Justice the way he did was because his name is in the title of the game. Had the game just been called AA4 in America, Apollo Justice's name is probably something different.

3) I never assumed people don't like Apollo. I said that the game was set up with a negative bias against Apollo, meaning that he wasn't supposed to be liked. If his character went over well anyway, then Capcom could continue with him. I actually liked Apollo too. Mainly because he was a lot like Phoenix, but had just enough contrast in him. But I don't deny that the game was not set up to make him look inferior to Phoenix.

4) You came out with a response awfully quick. My guess is, based upon your haphazard response, you didn't actually take the time to read most of the post. If you're going to criticize, at least take the time to fully understand the arguments being put forth.

Last edited by hannedog on Thu May 15, 2008 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

1.) Except we know -for a fact- that Shuu Takumi initially intended to have a completely separate and unrelated cast; it was Capcom that let him go with a new cast on the sole condition that he include two things--Phoenix and the Jury System. This alone invalidates your entire argument. Phoenix was originally not supposed to be in the game (granted this was very early on in the production from what we know, but the spirit is still there).

2.) Some people like Apollo Justice (as a name). I'm not even sure as to how to respond to this because the idea is so *bizarre.*

3.) Seriously, you make absolutely *no* sense. The fact that you'd think a company would intentionally sabotage their games--and make no mistake, making a purposefully negative main character DOES sabotage the game--just in case it didn't go over well...? That's absolutely absurd. Phoenix's story as a lawyer was done, he had surpassed Mia and become truly an Ace Attorney. He had nowhere left to go, and the staff had decided that they were done with him as a protagonist after three games.

4.) I'm a very quick reader, and a very quick typist. I was going to respond to the rest of your post but decided against it because it's late, I'm tired, and you're arguing frankly nonsensical things anyway. I read the post fully, and understood it fully. Doesn't change me thinking that it's a load of bunk either way.

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(I made a couple edits to my second posts to help clarify)

1) These things were disclosed to the public, yes, but that doesn't mean they are truly "fact." Regardless, I can buy that originally Takumi planned for an entirely new series, but, as you said, this was very early on -- so, because of that, it really wouldn't invalidate anything about my argument. All the kinds of decisions that were made related to my argument would have been made after the determination that the game was still about Phoenix.

2) Like/dislike: I'm not talking about such things. I actually don't mind the name too much myself. But if you don't think it's a ridiculous name (especially to an outsider of the series), then you're just, quite frankly, ridiculous. It completely lacks any subtlety.

3) To say that Capcom is purposefully sabotaging is not what I'm saying; my claim is the exact opposite. Rather, Capcom thought it would be helping its game by making the game revolve around Phoenix. After all, most people playing this game would be fans of the previous games, and fans of Phoenix. At the same time, they might be able to draw new people as well. However, even new players would realize that the main draw of the game is Phoenix, not Apollo, and, if executed properly, they wouldn't mind Apollo being abandoned. Now, in execution, this didn't go quite as well, since a lot of people evidently didn't like the character changes to Phoenix.

4) Perhaps you're too quick a reader, because you have been bringing up points that have already been addressed in my OP.

It completely invalidates your argument. The fact that they considered Phoenix's story as a lawyer done, hence why he was *not* the playable character in the game, completely invalidates everything you say on this front. Furthermore, Phoenix's overshadowing the game hurts Trucy and Klavier as well as Apollo--are you actually trying to say that Takumi and Capcom intentionally crippled the cast of their game just in case people didn't like them, rather than, uh, trying to make them likable so people WOULD like them? Not just the protagonist but his entire supporting cast--effectively rendering the events of AA4 meaningless other than "oh hey Phoenix can get his badge back."

That's.

I don't even know where to *begin* with how wrong that is.

And furthermore, there is a very sizable portion of the fanbase that dislikes the game BECAUSE of Phoenix's presence. I personally would have liked it better with absolutely no Phoenix at all, and I really do hope they write him out of the series in the beginning of GS5 so that Apollo can get a chance to stand on his own. You're arguing that it was intended for people to be all "yay Phoenix boo this new Apollo guy sucks"... when in fact a good many are the exact opposite "aw, this apollo guy is cute but WTF Hobo." Hell, for some people it's their primary complaint with the game.

It sure is one of mine. Phoenix cripples the game by his presence; and I honestly just have to chalk it up to poor execution rather than a calculated attempt to BRING BACK PHOENIX when the staff had all agreed that his story as a lawyer was done.

I'm going to sleep now, but when I have time tomorrow I'll address the rest of your post.

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Well, hopefully when you'll wake up you'll be able to better read my argument, because, once again, you're addressing things that I'm already telling you. You say:

"And furthermore, there is a very sizable portion of the fanbase that dislikes the game BECAUSE of Phoenix's presence... I honestly just have to chalk it up to poor execution..."

In the previous post, I just stated, "Now, in execution, this didn't go quite as well, since a lot of people evidently didn't like the character changes to Phoenix" and in my original post at the very beginning, I said "this thread is meant to address all the people who were dissatisfied with AA4 because... Phoenix's taking up all the limelight.

This is the whole basis of my argument, which you are not able to distinguish (yet): I'm talking about what Capcom was thinking AA4 could have been, not what it was due to its execution. In theory, it was supposed to be better because of Phoenix. However, in execution, the argument can be made that the game was made worse. People who make such arguments find the biggest problem with Apollo's role (or lack thereof), but I say to them that they were just expecting the wrong thing, at least from what the storytellers were hoping you were going to expect. Personally, whether or not I like Phoenix's inclusion all depends on where the go with the series from here, as I stated in my OP.

"The fact that they considered Phoenix's story as a lawyer done" -- doesn't imply anything. Considered? They consider many things. They also probably considered a new protagonist after PW1. After all, people who make quality products try to consider as many aspects as possible in its creation. However, considerations don't matter -- the only thing that matters is what they ultimately decide. You know as well as I the line Phoenix makes about a comeback at the end of the game. This line proves nothing, but, it keeps open the possibility, which is all I'm trying to show.

Had Capcom ultimately decided that Phoenix's story was done, then, yes, my argument would be completely invalidated. Just because they "considered" it doesn't mean squat, though.

"Furthermore, Phoenix's overshadowing the game hurts Trucy and Klavier as well as Apollo" -- again, this is the difference between theory and execution. My argument is that Phoenix was supposed to be the real main character of AA4. As such, he was supposed to make Apollo seem more unimportant. They didn't then try and make Apollo stupid, they still wanted him to be cool (to fill in the "Phoenix personality" since you weren't actually playing as him), but, the main problem that many people have is that he is underdeveloped. And, if you consider Apollo as the main character, this is a valid argument. My argument is also that in thoery, while Capcom's making the game, having Phoenix as the main character shouldn't hurt the perhipheral characters. It was supposed to be that Phoenix's overshadowing wasn't supposed to hurt the peripheral cast as much, but, in its execution, you certainly can make that argument.

If you understand my argument in this sense, then it is clear that Capcom would be trying to better its game by the inclusion of Phoenix. They thought it would be better because of Phoenix. Whether or not that inclusion actually did help or hurt the game is irrelevant to my argument.

Well, I'd like to think your theory is true, [because let's face it, I wouldn't miss Apollo at all if Phoenix was the main character again in GS5] but it most obviously isn't.

The story ended up revolving around Phoenix more by accident and poor writing, once they dragged him into a difficult main plot point they had to somehow resolve that mess during the game and somehow connect it with promoting a favourable view of jury systems [the other imposed requirement]. It was not the writers' original intention.

Oh, why did Capcom demand Phoenix? TO SELL THE GAMES. It did work.

And sure, Apollo is little but a tool, but i think this was poor writing and execution rather than original intention.

Apollo Justice - uh, I have no idea why the English translators chose such a stupid name, which I assume uncreative Apollo invented for himself, but as others have said, it's the Japanese name which really matters, which I assume isn't that stupid?

Apollo is nothing like Phoenix. One of the things I liked about Phoenix was that it really felt like that was Phoenix onscreen, a character I quickly got extremely attached to. One of the things I'll give the AA4 writers credit for is that Apollo feels nothing like Phoenix. Though he's a far more generic character and frequently felt like my generic avatar onscreen, particularly whenever Phoenix was present. I doubt this was intentional, it was just a possible weakness of the game. [The other reason he felt nothing like Phoenix was that he lacked most of the personality qualities I so admired in Phoenix, and seemed to blindly do as he was told a little too often, but we're getting OT.]

Now, people who hate Hobo Phoenix's personality changes, well we only ever got to see him from Apollo's perspective most of the time. [Ah yeah, well maybe Apollo is Phoenix's willing but unwitting pawn, but would Kristoph have used him as his own unwitting pawn if Phoenix hasn't taken over his 'mentorship'?] Expecting Phoenix's to place much trust in Kristoph Gavin's apprentice immediately is unreasonable. And is poor Phoenix going to be the happiest loveliest guy after that 7 years of torture happened to him? What would you be like if that happened to you? Most people would have become a lot more bitter and twisted. I wish people would stop thinking that the Mason System was Phoenix's literal presentation to the jury system and thinking he immorally corrupted everything, it's just some weird plot telling device. Oh, and of course Phoenix wasn't exactly the nicest guy around Kristoph. He hates him, knows he's a mass-murderer and responsible for deliberately destroying him, and he just has to play friends and bide his time...

The flashback case was annoyingly written, they made Phoenix just a little too arrogant. Trying to placate us by setting up 'pride before a fall' type stuff before the disbarring. It only served to irritate me and make me doubly curse the writers for disbarring him. I wish they'd gone with the original concept art of Young Klavier, where he was wearing his earphones listening to music throughout the entire trial, then Phoenix's attitude would have been more readily identifiable as legitimate.

Well, leaving Phoenix as a major actor/manipulator in GS4 does leave a possibility he can pick up the pieces in GS5, but this is an assessment in hindsight, NOT the original intention of the writers. The way the Apollonian plot is established leaves enough lose ends that I'm sure when it was produced they intended to have an Apollo-centric GS5, though not enough loose ends that they are necessarily forced to have a Apollo-centic GS5.

The 'maybe I'll take the bar exam again' I think was almost certainly deliberately ambiguous, much as I am chomping at the bit to have Phoenix rebarred. It leaves the writers' options open, rather than indicating their specific intentions.



I totally agree with this. Phoenix's life and relations with the old cast now need to be rectified. If this isn't done sufficiently in GS5 or a spinoff game, I will resent the existence of Gyakuten Saiban 4. And yes, Phoenix's trilogy/story was complete after GS3, but GS4's plot destroyed everything for Phoenix resolved in GS3, which now requires Phoenix to have adequate resolution in GS5. However, this was surely not an intention of the writers in GS4 so as to have him in GS5, it was just a somewhat unfortunate consequence.

I do wonder what the delays in production of GS5 mean for theories along this line, if anything. Are they delaying to include More Phoenix again? Are they having trouble considering which tactic to take Re: Phoenix/Apollo?

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So I guess this argument mostly rests on Apollo himself being a "filler main character" for the story. Obviously, with Phoenix's badge lost, you wouldn't be able to do much as him during those 7 years.

Actually, doesn't this heavily remind everyone of Metal Gear Solid 2? New main character that no one seems to like, while still sort of telling the story of the other character. Difference is, Snake never defeated Ocelot. Not to mention, Raiden had his own battle to fight at the end of the game, and did that without any covering fire from Snake. Also, I can remember one of the final battle sequences in MGS2 where Raiden and Snake are fighting side by side, as equals. Though I didn't like Raiden, that part did feel good. See, I feel like the Ace Attorney parallel of this would involve Nick shoving Apollo behind cover and opening up with an M249. You get to play as Apollo as he helps to feed the ammo belt into his gun.

However the story unfolds, you have to make it a good game. Ace Attorney MOSTLY depends upon story for its good gameplay. Giving you a really weak protagonist, for whatever reason, is what weakened the game for me. I don't actually hold contempt for Phoenix's new character, really (I'm sure he still makes plenty of humorous quips in blue parentheses). It just seems weird for me to be a spectator as he fights this grand battle.

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Well, I just thought it was a transition game of the passing of one protagonist to the next. If Phoenix is going to go out, might as well put in a whole dramatic story about it while introducing a new protagonist. It was more about Phoenix because the story revolved around him of course. In the next game, there's plenty of room for Apollo's back story, which we know really nothing about (other than who's his mother). It was sort of set up in the ending too, "Fates intertwined" "I will go to them when the time is right" etc. etc. Who was his father? Where did he live before? Why did he become a defense attorney? Phoenix may or may not become an attorney again, but I think we're done with him, there's really nothing more to cover about him. (sure, we never heard about his parents specifically, but I'm guessing there's nothing to mention about them, must just be normal, run-of-the-mill loving parents) If you play out characters too much, it just gets old and there'll end up being a lot of filler cases.

Apollo probably only looked like a tool, because he was presenting everything for Phoenix, he was just the middleman. True, but at the same time, you see Apollo getting more experienced in court. If he ever has to face up to some sort of prosecutor who wishes to crush everything in their way, unmercifully, Apollo will get no help and will have to use this experience to his advantage. (and the perceive of course)

I don't think they'd throw away Apollo when so much is left unexplained.

Phoenix - God from mythology.
Wright - "righteous" sounding last name.

Apollo - God from mythology.
Justice - A "righteous" last name.

They just did the same formula they did for Phoenix, besides, Apollo is a bad-ass name. I'd name my child "Apollo"

I haven't played Apollo Justice, but I would just like to respond to that english name remark.

Last edited by Tamagon on Fri May 16, 2008 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

- - i personally wish, hope, desperately want it to be that nick never goes into the courtroom again - -

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Honestly, I think that Capcom could have handled the whole Phoenix in Game and new Player Character very well, and address a small and unimportant question of the PW series.

Make Apollo the Co. in "Wright and Co." law offices.

This is honestly convoluted.

Apollo was a nice main character. I didn't think he was generic or anything like that. Let's think for a second, what did we know about Phoenix after his first game? he was friends with a loser and a prosecutor, and a spirit medium, and was a nice defense lawyer. However, by the end of his trilogy, he became a fully developed veteran, with a small backstory and plenty of grasp for who he is.

I believe that Capcom will do this same thing with Apollo. It's not that hard to believe, they did leave us with a lot about Apollo that wasn't covered (even though the same could be said for Phoenix)

I honestly don't know what they'll do with Nick. No one does. We also don't know what crazy console Nintendo will come up with next either. Does that mean the Wii will be ignored when they do make a new system? I don't think so.

Come on, people! You can't just ditch Polly just yet!

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First of all.

Everyone I crossed had different, quite extreme things to say about the cases, the defendants, and the main characters. Some say your clients are the worst, some say they're "like a breath of fresh air". Some say the final case was trash, and some say it was a masterpiece. (And I side with the latter, I really liked it. Saying the outcome is childish is ignoring the fact that the whole game revolves around how evidence can and will be twisted to the culprit's advantage given the chances.)

Some liked Apollo, some liked Phoenix, some like both.

As a matter of fact, I dare say that I HATED BOTH.

Indeed, the forced inclusion of Phoenix wounded the game. Phoenix is not who he used to be, and he didn't change the way he should, given his personality and the fact that raising a child is a life-changing experience REGARDLESS OF YOUR RUINED REPUTATION. The new Phoenix was underdeveloped and bland in comparison to the rest of the cast, which were all kinds of bland themselves.

And where to start on Apollo? He seemed like an overall brat. It felt like the one not acting his age was him, as he acted like a total teenager, while Trucy demonstrated great maturity for her age.

Klavier was a strange mixture between a helpful character and a general annoyance, how he practically dismissed you while giving you an awfully GAY smile.

EMA. OH GOD EMA. As much as I loved Ema, I gotta say, ENOUGH WITH THE ANGSTY RETURNING CHARACTERS! I'd say, if you want to include an angsty character, decide: Phoenix OR Ema. Not both.

AND LAMIROIR. AND THALASSA. OH GOD. I RATHER NOT TALK ABOUT THAT.

Really, this game was all kinds of miswritten, levels of carelessness I hadn't seen since HARRY POTTER. The Mason system seemed like some sort of tantrum from the developers, they'd include Phoenix AND ONLY PHOENIX, well, perhaps Gumshoe (Meekins doesn't count, all 1-5 characters are Apollo Justice generation characters), but the rest of them? Nah, let's not include a proper flashback case, let's just throw in whatever the hell we can in. AND THAT'S THE CASE MY FRIENDS THINK WAS WELL-WRITTEN.

The bar exam line is bogus, seeing as the board wouyldn't let him be attorney again counting on what happened in the case where "he forged evidence"... or could it be "he entered shady evidence to the court without thinking"? EVEN IF THE PROSECUTOR SEEMED TO BE RALLYING HIM TO PRESENT THE PAGE?

...Enough. The truth is, OP, your theory falls short because the character you're supporting your theory in doesn't cut it either, he's as miswritten as the others or worse even. I can't really believe you think he was the money shot of the game, as he was very, very lousily executed.

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I'm just here to say that the title of Mega Man X has nothing to do with it being the tenth game in the series. In fact, it was not the tenth game in the series, because the classic series stopped at 8 (which, by the way, was released two years after Mega Man X). The X series is entirely new, and has it's own numbering system, as well as all of the other Mega Man serieses (not "spinoffs", as you call them).

I have a few problems with your post.

1. How exactly is Phoenix's inclusion forced? He was an integral part of the game, and I didn't think he was forced at all. I mean, with out him, how could Trucy be in this game? Foster care?

2. A bland cast? A BLAND CAST? What, may I ask, were Daryan, Trucy, Klavier, Kristoph, and Vera? they certainly weren't bland at all.

3. Trucy was mature for her age? Ha...! She had illogical sayings (Apollo even wondered if Nick taught her these things) about a lot of things, and seemed like a silly child to me (even though she was still great).

4. You don't think Apollo was acting his age? Really? Granted, he wasn't the most mature person around, I still got the fact that he graduated from the bar and was a lawyer. He won four cases after all! (Ok, three. One was forged)

5. What's wrong with Shadi...?

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Frankly, your argument is lacking thought.

1: While a somewhat valid point about the titling, it is not strong enough. There are many examples in which games have changed names due to different protagonists and games who have continued on the name even with new protagonists, the most notorious of which must be the Final Fantasy series. Even within the same gaming company it is a point that bears no weight. Titles become household favourites. Again, I'm using Final Fantasy as an example though there are numerous more, but if you look at it, Square Enix have had a different protagonist for each installation (not including spin-offs or sequels) but have still kept the stories under the Final Fantasy label, because it is a recognised name the world over and recognised names mean sales. It is a marketing technique, nothing more - hence the reason Capcom stuck with Gyakuten Saiban. If Capcom America hadn't stuck the localised name of the protagonist in the title, then that, too, would have stayed exactly the same: as Ace Attorney and nothing more, nothing less.

2: Again, another poorly thought-out question. Capcom America have no say in how the game plays out. They're responsible for translation, localisation and sales to the world outside of Japan. Everything within the storyline is down to Capcom Japan. If we were to look at whether he was named Apollo Justice because it was inevitable he was going to fail, then we have to look at just exactly what Housuke Odoroki means. I found this out and after researching it myself, it seems valid:



Capcom Japan had the right idea: link it back to Phoenix Wright and they'd gain more sales, because he's a household name. However, that does not mean Apollo was there to fail and set up Phoenix's rebirth. Even the English names link with the other: both have mythological connotations and lawful, upholding surnames.

3: I don't...see where it is you're pulling this negative bias. As far as I can tell, there is none. Apollo, at the start of case one, is in the exact same predicament as Phoenix in the very first case of the very first game: a greenhorn attorney. Obviously he lacks experience in a courtroom just as Phoenix did. If you're pulling all of this speculation from the flashback case, then I think you need to take a step back and look at it with a more open mind. At the point of the flashback case, Phoenix was a veteran. A veteran pitted against a greenhorn? It's quite obvious which is going to appear more inferior.

4: Here I say you should take your own advice, reading some of your responses.

Now that my rebuttals are over, I'd like to make a few of my own points.

Do you ever get bored of the same thing? Of course you do - it's natural. The brain needs stimulation in different forms and the same things cause tedium. If Capcom continued the series with the same set of characters, fans would, eventually, grow bored; the games wouldn't feel fresh anymore; they'd feel like sequels were just alterations of the original. I know I've felt this way on occasion. In order for your product to sell - which is a business's main objective - you have to keep things fresh. The introduction of new casts is one way. Another is to alter gameplay. Saying this, however, the gameplay of the Gyakuten Saiban cannot be altered greatly, and oftentimes when gameplay is altered in other games it goes down like a lead balloon with the fans. It is much more effective to alter a cast and run the risk of one or two characters being disliked than the entire game.

Well you know, I never found that Phoenix was 'taking over the game' - only in the last case, because he was partially a victim, and the last case is never purely about the protagonist. And in the first one you were just defending him - the trial was really about Kristoph in the end. I mean heck, in 2 and 3 the only time we saw him was for a chat at his clinic. So I don't see what the whining is about. =)

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Last edited by Marsha2112 on Tue May 20, 2008 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

1. Phoenix was literally forced into the game. Capcom forced 2 criteria on the writers, I'm not sure how advanced production was at the time [but I'd love to know.].
-Phoenix at least, and maybe other old chars, required to return. [I'm positive this was to sell games to fans of the older trilogy since that ensured they'd buy it.]
-Must promote a positive perception of jury systems [didn't Capcom get funding for this purpose?]

How could Trucy be in the game? Well, I bet they made Trucy Phoenix's adopted daughter after Trucy had already been in production. How better than to somehow force a connection to the new cast, especially since the trilogy left him an honourary Fey. How better than to make Phoenix's fans feel some connection to the new cast? It means we automatically care about Trucy, simply because if something happened to her it would hurt Phoenix. Without Phoenix, Trucy could easily meet Apollo by some other scenario.

2. 'Bland', well most of the chars don't have deep, complex and interesting personalities. And some people complain too many revolve around a gimmick. Granted, this was true of minor chars in the last trilogy, but it's now true of many of the main chars. Kristoph, Phoenix and maybe Ema I felt were still interesting, the others.. not so much.

4. Apollo wasn't immature.. but maybe immature, lawyer-wise. He kind of did what he was told and let himself be manipulated [how did he get to be Kristoph's apprentice anyway? backstory please!] , and Trucy and Phoenix did too much work for him.

I just have to say, Apollo is fine, but Justice is a stupid surname as it reeks too strongly of forced obvious. Wright is kind of a bad pun, but it's a real, not so uncommon surname and it isn't spelled 'Right'. Justice is a very uncommon surname and it's so obvious it's not even a pun.

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As explained earlier, one of Capcom's requirements for the game was Phoenix to be in it, even if Takumi wanted a whole new cast in. Trucy would have appeared in the game in other means.



THEY WERE BLAND. BLAND BLAND BLAND. Daryan was under-written. It felt like another Frank Sahwit.
Trucy, well... She shares a few traits with Maya, as Apollo shares a few traits with Phoenix. They could have gone for a whole new gimmick for those two, not just polish the old cast.
I already explained my beef with Klavier, but I can add: He was a little bit indifferent to the fact that he had a bone to pick with Apollo for what happened to Kristoph. And Kristoph... WHAT KIND OF MOTIVES WERE THOSE? WHAT A SELF-CENTERED ASS

I have to admit Vera is one of the most compelling characters in all the series.



I meant her feelings. She does quite a lot of struggle to hide her real feelings about her father so as not to break Apollo as well, because, let's remember, Apollo really worries about Trucy.



He was one of the most immature persons around, and he wasn't the youngest one on the cast. Plus, about the cases, Apollo solved four cases MY ASS. Phoenix solved two of them, Klavier solved another one and Lamiroir's was solved from the very beginning, what with EXCESSIVELY COOPERATING VICTIM AND SUSPECTS?



...I never mentioned Shadi... I mentioned the shady piece of evidence (the forged piece of the diary). It has nothing to do with Shadi Enigmar...

But indeed, there's something very wrong with Shadi. I mean, what with involving his own child in his own "disappearing from the court" act (It is obvious the second Shadi was Mr. Hat, even if they don't tell you) and leaving her to her own? I mean, Shadi couldn't be sure Phoenix would take care of her, could he? Only to later appear with the will in his hands and a notary to boot? SOUNDS LIKE THE WORST CASE OF DEUS EX MACHINA TO ME


Don't get me wrong, I really, REALLY liked this game and I REALLY liked the cast and the cases and everything. But you got to admit there are a few weaknesses in it.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you think that Phoenix's inclusion hurt the game. How so? Don't you think we needed some sort of closer on him?

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Closer? Please...GS3 was closer. Keep in mind it was written far before Apollo Justice, and my belief is pretty firm that it was the end of Phoenix's story. Heck; do we see ANY of his old friends in GS4? No. How can it be a closure of Phoenix's story if it has nothing to do with anyone he used to know?

Full agreement about who solved the case. Maybe it wasn't entirely a certain person, but it always felt like it was the entire courtroom solving the contradictions.

Note to everyone though; even if it might have sort of been my own thread that triggered this, please don't get angry at anyone. Some people here are starting to rant at others about how they're wrong. If they liked the game, let them like the game.
"NO U DIDNT LIK THE GAEM. LOOK; YOUR HAPPINESS IS RONG."

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...We do see good ol' Gumshoe...

I guess he was forgotten...

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Uh, GS4 was actually the opposite of closure on Phoenix.
Game 3 resolved his arc and Phoenix's story to an acceptable point where it could be left.
GS4 invalidated almost everything Phoenix achieved or resolved in his trilogy [even his friends he worked hard to save have 'ceased to exist'] so now it's required that Phoenix be brought back in a major role of more games for adequate re-closure on his character.
Adequate re-closure of Phoenix.. well that would mean less time for Apollo. They've set up a tough situation...

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But that's the thing. Phoenix does NOT require more plot. In fact, GS4 did NOT invalidate anything Phoenix had done until then, the story still exists and is set. They're just dragging it out.

Phoenix can still be one of the Wright Talent Co. CEOs and let Apollo take the cases on. For all we know he might have to tackle a new, unrelenting prosecutor who tries to rip him to shreds instead of just teasing and nudging in the right direction, KLAVIER ¬_¬

And as I said, the bar exam line is just a joke, no way the board would let him defend again with such a smudge on his record. I mean, yeah, Phoenix already proved he wasn't the forger, but what's on the file is on the file and people don't exactly erase it.

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Maybe they'll re-close the Pheonix arc in the upcoming game. The spinoff would be a great place to show what happend to Edgy, Gumshoe, and Maya.

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Maybe Hobo-Nick just becomes a regular, neutral, re-occuring character? The AA universe doesn't have too many of those.

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That is, ultimately, the only way Phoenix can interact in the story after his appearance in AA4.

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I highly doubt that he'll be neutral. He's been set up as the new mentor by the end of the game, so he'll continue to stay on Apollo's side probably even more so then he was in this game.

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I would assume so....

Unless they killed him, or he became a lawyer again.

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Well although the OP's theory is for the most part, likely not true, I do see a grain of truth in part of it - Apollo being a far more generic character. Why? Because the game was kind of about jury systems and learning about the case from the Jury's/detached 3rd person's perspective. [Or something. The game is kind of confusing..] And we no longer play as Phoenix, but really it's Phoenix on trial in the minds of the players. Apollo being a tool, half the time he's just the player's opportunity to be a generic 'jurist' in the GS world. We as a player choose guilty or not guilty, and we aren't Apollo then. Oh and really that choice is to prove Phoenix's innocence more than Vera's. So I guess it was weird because we have one big case, defendant: Phoenix Wright, except that we play as jurist not his defense attorney. And a little bit of filler as defense attorney for others in between.


Phoenix [and probably Maya] aren't appearing in any meaningful way in GK, but I see the potential for GK2, GK3... depends on gameplay, but there's the potential they could use that series to continue developing the plots of the original arc's chars. Maybe even hijack an investigation phase to be played as Phoenix or Maya? They could fill in the 7 year gap. But that's just potential. I'm not even sure if they'd be allowed to. It sounds like a great solution to everyone's character/plot [Apollo's too!] development though. Maybe they could connect the plots enough to the main series that everyone is inspired to buy both.

I don't think Phoenix would have made the joke if he wasn't allowed to be a lawyer again. It would have just been tactless to himself.

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Well, I think you lot would have complained more if Phoenix was hardly in the game AT ALL.
Think about it...after a whole TRILOGY with the same protagonist and cast, if they had changed it so there was NO-ONE from the past, there would have been a lot more complaints. It would have felt like a totally different game. Phoenix was the link between the 2 'series'..and I never felt that he was taking over. In cases 2 and 3 he did virtually nothing!

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So was Ema...

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The main villain... was Phoenix's enemy.

Like it or not, he was the main character of the story by the end. Apollo was just the playable one.

And I would have so much preferred Phoenix not in at all to what we go.

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And Dahlia was Mia's main enemy with Phoenix doing more as he was told and following through with the situation she had set up. They seemed to have tried for a similar rivalry between Phoenix and Kristoph as they had between Mia and Dahlia. Just as Mia arranges the situation that leads to Dahlia's defeat, Phoenix arranges Kristoph's defeat. I agree this game had a difficult balancing act going (although I thought it made the game rather interesting) because it essentially had two protagonists to really show the transfer of Phoenix's legacy to Apollo. By the end, they have completed this transfer by having Apollo close the one case Phoenix was never able to finish himself and they can really move more into Apollo's story now. I actually liked how they handled this transfer, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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No. The Mia as 'controlling' mentor has no parallel to the Phoenix as controlling mentor. I admit the writers may have attempted to replicate this to some extent, but they certainly didn't succeed.

Mia didn't 'arrange' the situation leading to Dahlia's defeat, she didn't in any way direct Phoenix to become involved in that case, it was more or less luck that Phoenix was at the scene of the murder and so chose himself to defend Iris and solved the crime by himself. And Mia explicitly trusted him to figure out all the events of the crime by himself. It was a nice unexpected 'bonus' for Mia, really, that Phoenix could defeat Dahlia for her, certainly not her specific plans for him.

In 4-4, Phoenix figured out absolutely everything. Apollo had to do very little himself, just be the pawn that happened to be qualified with a defense attorney's badge and use what Phoenix had told him.

Phoenix solved the 3-5 case without any significant help from Mia, and Phoenix also solved the 4-4 case in its entirety. Except that he required somebody to stand around in the defenses' bench and keep proceedings going. [A little like Edgey in 3-5, except that Edgey solved more of the actual crime!] Even the 'jury' [player] decides the verdict! And the jury is, well, linked to Phoenix. It's not some dead or otherwise mentor passing on his legacy. It's a frustrated disbarred lawyer who solved the case himself and couldn't close it due to one little detail so he, well, manipulates Apollo to facilitate Phoenix finishing the case. [/spoiler]

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About the first post...

I understand where you're coming from, and I think you MAY be right. I really hope you're wrong, though, because as much as I love Phoenix, I don't want to see Apollo thrown away. He deserves so much more than that! He should develop, both as a person and as a defense attorney, and experience the highs and lows Phoenix once did. He has SO MUCH POTENTIAL! I just don't want all that to amount to nothing... The great protagonist that could have been...

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Your spoiler tagging didn't go so well...

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