JUST ADDED SOME INFO ON THE VICTIM AND THE SUSPECT, LILY AND VALENTINE, BUT FEEDBACK ON ANY OF MY CHARACTERS IS AWESOME.

A few years back, I went through an extremely traumatizing event involving a Mary Sue of my creation. To avoid something like that happening again, I'm prepared to take any and all precautions necessary. Here I'll post stuff about my characters (and later, for my second thread, I'll post my fic(s) once I'm finished) and I would really appreciate some input. And pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease PLEASE!!!!!!!!! let me know right away if any of my characters start to stink of a Mary Sue or Anti-Sue. (Keep in mind that I've probably taken the Mary Sue litmus test for most of these characters already.) I really don't want to go through the same thing as last time.

As of right now, there's only one OC that I'd like some feedback on, but in time I'll post more. I know it seems like I wrote a lot but you have to understand that I get really into my writing, and I just really don't want to have another Mary Sue on my hands. So anyway here they are.

(Also keep in mind that in this particular fanfic the characters's pasts are extremely important, so I felt the need to create elaborate backstories for some of them. Oh, and it takes place exactly a year after the last case in T&T.)
_________________________________________________

Name: Amanda "Mandy" Silvia Volk
Age: 24
Occupation: Defense attorney/waitress at Hooters (or some other restaurant of my creation with scantily-clad waitresses)
She lived on the same street as Dahlia Hawthorne (and Iris, for a short period of time) and Lily Marlone (the victim) as a child and played with them all the time. She also idolizes Phoenix Wright but never met him prior to the story and has no other connections to any cannon characters prior to the story. She lived in a rich neighborhood in a big house with a big family, and while her parents made a steady income she never really had many luxuries to enjoy as a child. But she had fourteen siblings (seven brothers and seven sisters... wait! There's an explanation!) so none of them really got to enjoy luxuries either. She has so many siblings because her parents were pretty strict about their religion so they didn't use any kind of protection, and also her mother was extremely fertile. Quite a few of her siblings (including herself) didn't particularly care for their strict religion, causing rebellion and disowning in most of them. At the age of seventeen she was dating a guy who wasn't exactly the best influence on her, but they got engaged after a pregnancy scare (which turned out to be a false alarm). Her parents disowned her when they got married two months after the engagement, and due to carelessness she did get pregnant shortly after the marriage. A year later, when their daughter Maria was three months old, her now-husband left her and the kid.

She was always pretty good in school (although she may have gotten yelled at for talking so much) and graduated from high school a year early. She got into a pretty good college and studied extremely hard, also working night shifts at a restaurant in order to support her daughter. One day in her senior year of college her ex shows up, hooks up with her, and never calls her again. She was two months pregnant with twins when she graduated (but that was the fault of a defective condom, not theirs), and she named them Alex and Samantha. (Just to clarify, since Alex is a unisexual name, her Alex was a boy.) She then attended law school, and after passing the bar exam, she and her former professor Lisa (I don't have a last name for her yet) started a law firm together. Under the watchful eye of her mentor, she took on two cases, and it wasn't long before people started calling her a genius attorney.

But she became a little too dependent on her mentor, and started falling when Lisa moved to Europe with her husband shortly after Amanda's second case. One-on-one situations began stress her out and make her nervous, and when that happens she starts to talk non-stop about silly, irrelevant things. Because of this, she managed to (accidentally, of course) chase away client after client after client. Thankfully, she got a job at Hooters (I'm working on another name for it, but it's basically Hooters) shortly after the birth of her twins, and she works there full-time on nights and weekends. She's not exactly the prettiest thing in the world (to be frank, she's actually pretty average in appearance) but at the time she had the, um... "materials" required, and she was really nervous at the job interview, causing her to babble and in turn causing the interviewer to think she didn't have anything important going on in her brain. (In other words, he thought she was an airheaded bimbo. Perfect for Hooters.)

Now she works over eighty hours a week, so she rarely gets to spend time with her kids. So her older sister Violet takes care of them for her during the day and her older brother Lance watches them on nights and weekends. (More on those two later.) Her daughter Maria, who is a lactose-intolerant seven year old, goes to school during the day. Her twins Alex and Sammy are three, and Alex is currently sick with pneumonia (making Amanda work extra-hard for him). She busts her ass for them, but now that she's beginning the climb up the ladder of success, the stress of her work and her children are starting to be a bit too much for her to bear.

Outside of court, she talks a lot. A LOT. It turns off most people, which is why she couldn't get a client for so long. She's also quite impatient, which in a way is a good and bad thing, because she doesn't have much of the patience her children require. She loves them to death, though, and would put herself in harm's way in order to protect them, if need be. (But then again, that's part of being a mother.) In court, she seems to be a totally different person. She's sharp-witted and quick-minded, basically a genius at her craft. She just can't attract clients.
_________________________________________________

...Okay, guys, honestly, it didn't seem like that much in my head. I'm sorry it's so long!!! (I guess it is a bit repetitive too...) Anyways, I was gonna write about the victim and the suspect too, but I'm too lazy to do it right now. Plus, I don't think I could do that to you poor people. This is a bit overwhelming already, isn't it? I'm sorry!!!!!!!!

---

Last edited by TreehouseSlumbaParty on Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

Hey there! I don't know if this is going to be that useful, but I thought the "didn't get a lot of luxuries in life" and "getting into a good college" parts were a bit conflicting. I'd think you'd need a hefty amount of money to get into a good college, and even pursue law. Unless there was some sort of benefactor? And her defense attorney side doesn't shine through a lot from what I've read.

---

Scholarships and teacher recomendations. That's how she got in. Remember, she graduated a year early? But thanks for letting me know, because that's the kind of thing that I'm likely to overlook. Not entirely sure what you mean by "her defense attorney side doesn't shine through a lot," but if it helps any I could compare it to acting or writing. When you're acting especially you really have to know your character, know them so well that you could actually be them, right? When you're in character, you're not really yourself. Amanda's "in character" when she's in court. She's no longer the talkative, impatient Mandy we know and love. She's Ms. Amanda Volk, defense attorney, prepared to do everything (legal) in her power to get an acquittal. Make sense?

---

Ah, scholarships. That makes sense. x3 No no, I don't mean to say that she doesn't have defense attorney qualities. I meant that from what you've written it doesn't seem to me that being a defense attorney is the main focus; she doesn't get a lot of clients and she works at Hooters eighty hours a week. I dunno, that's just the impression I got.

---

Oh, I see. Yeah, it makes sense that you would think that. I'd say that there is more of her personal life in the story than actually being in court, but there's a good amount of court scenes in there too. I'm really anti-spoiler with pretty much anything, so I didn't want to say much about the actual case because of spoilers (although that'll probably fall through once I start writing about the suspect). And she doesn't work eighty hours a week at Hooters, she works eighty hours a week total (working nine to five in the office, even if she can't do much there). Sorry, I could've been more clear on that too.

---

Okay, I couldn't put these next two characters into words as well because I'm sleep-deprived and because of that I have a horrible headache and because of that I can't exactly think straight. So please forgive me. Here's some info on Lily (the victim) and Valentine (the suspect), and PLEASE let me know if you smell a Mary Sue anywhere!
_________________________________________________

Name: Lily Marlone
Age: 28
Occupation: College student

She was childhood friends with Dahlia Hawthorne and played with her and Amanda all the time when she was little. That’s the only connection she has with cannon characters. They say (don’t ask me who “they” are) that Dahlia Hawthorne became so evil because of the Marlone sisters.

Lily was pretty much just your average kid until the age of fifteen, when she started mixing herself in with the wrong crowd. She began dating a boy (who was actually the older brother of Amanda’s children’s father) who sold her drugs and stuff, and it didn’t take long for her to get addicted. Her parents found her out shortly after Valentine’s “incident” and she was then sent to rehab (because it was either that or prison). Three years after, her family moved to a smaller, more affordable house. (Hey, rehab doesn’t come cheap.)

She was released from rehab at the age of twenty, and was clean for six months after that. One joint was all it took for her to lose it, and was sent back again by her parents. She was released again five years later and has now been out for two and a half years. She was going to college, was slowly developing a positive relationship with her family, and otherwise seemed to be getting her life back on track when she was murdered in her home one day in late February. Even her little sister was beginning to look up to her as a role model, a sister that she never really got to know. Oh, but she still lived with her parents because of her past. Just something you should know.
_________________________________________________

Name: Valentine “Val” Marlone
Age: 16 (her seventeenth birthday is on her third trial day. Yes, she’s the suspect.)
Occupation: High school junior

She grew up on the same street as the Hawthornes, but never played with them due to the age difference. They say (don’t ask me who “they” are) that Dahlia Hawthorne became so evil because of the Marlone sisters.

When Valentine was only three years old, she went through a seriously traumatic event where she was locked in a closet for nine hours. I’ll spare you all the nasty details, but it was pretty bad. At the time her parents left her in the care of a babysitter, who somehow got off the hook for it(still working that part out). But since she was unconscious half the time, and also because she was so young, she could easily push the memory so far back into her mind that she’d need a hypnotherapist to remember it.

Occasionally she’ll have nightmares or flashbacks of the event, but she never knew what they meant because she couldn’t really remember it. She also became extremely claustrophobic as a result of that incident. Other than that, she’s lived a pretty average life. She’s really interested in occult stuff, though. As for her personality, she’s pretty easy to persuade. Not necessarily easy to manipulate, but she’s easily convinced. In truth, at some points during the trial she wonders if maybe she really did kill her sister, even when she knows she’s innocent.
_________________________________________________

I'm being pretty vague here because I don't want to let loose any spoilers, but maybe later I can edit these so you can have a better idea of the characters. I just can't do it right now though.

---

Hey, remember Valerie Hawthorne? That's kind of similar to Valentine. Just pointing it out :)

---

Wait, what?

You haven't put too many details about the case itself in here yet, but already one wonders, why is Dahlia so important to the backstories of these women? By the time of your story she's been dead for over a year, so it seems really awkward to throw out details combining their hisotry. Plus positioning your OC as "The root of Dahlia's evil" has Sue written all over it. It sounds like you're trying to avoid the Sue label by removing connections to canon characters, but it's not just the number of connections that make a Sue, it's the type of connection. It's fine to say Amanda knew Dahlia growing up, but you're kind saying your OC is a focal point of the entire series (since so many things would have been different, had Dahlia not been a bitch).

Amanda's backstory is also a little confusing. How long has she idolized Phoenix? He was a total no one until he started winning cases. Did she go into law because of him, or was that just another inserted detail? Also, you make it sound like within only a few months Lisa started a firm with Amanda, Amanda turned out to be a genius, and then Lisa ditched her to go to Europe. Why would she abandon a firm that young when she has a genius on payroll? It would make more sense to say Lisa left *after* Amanda started scaring away their clients.

I think there's some good ideas hiding in there, but you might be trying too hard to not make Sues, which leads to them feeling forced.

---

Alright, one of us is confused here. Amanda knew Dahlia growing up, that's all. She wasn't the one that caused Dahlia to be so evil. It sounds to me like you thought that Amanda was the reason, which she's not. It was the two sisters, Valentine and Lily. Not Amanda. And if that wasn't what you thought, then I'm the confused one and it would help for you to elaborate a bit more. Also I'm trying not to say too much about the case just yet because of all the spoilers, gack. I do hate spoilers. So that could cause confusion too. I'd be willing to tell you some of the spoilers because you're Croik and you're awesome, if you think that would help clarify some things.



Now those are good questions. I'll have to think a bit more on those. Thanks for that!



...Huh. Didn't realize that. Which is pretty funny because I almost named her Valerie, but then decided not to because there was already Valerie Hawthorne. Although, no offense to you or anything, I don't really see what that has to do with anything. I mean, just because their names sound a little similar that doesn't make her a Mary Sue, right?

---

I'm sorry that I didn't word my concerns so well. I forgot Lily and Val's names when I wrote that >.>

Forgive me for being so direct, but saying "Lily and Val caused Dahlia to be like she is in the games" means they both already have one foot in Sue territory. Because Amanda also knows Dahlia I assume that Dahlia is going to be important to the case somehow. Since she's been dead for a while by the time of the fic you'll have to be careful about how you handle that.

Amanda having known Dahlia as a kid is not necessarily Sue-ish. Lily and Val being the root of her "evil" is. Does that make a bit more sense?

I understand not wanting to post spoilers, but it does limit the kind of feedback we can give you.

---

How so? Please elaborate...



...Oh. Okay. Well... see, the whole story is mostly about Amanda, and I guess I didn't mention this before but this isn't the only case she works on in the story. I'm still trying to figure out the order of things, but there are some pretty gruesome murders in there too... (:karma:) This was just the first one I thought of, and the one I knew the most about it, so that's why I started writing about this particular case's characters. I'm not sure if this matters much, but... could theirs not being the main plot at hand maybe make them a little less Sue-ish?

And maybe I should explain how I came up with this in the first place. See, I like to think past things a lot, and ask why. So while I was playing 3-5, they kept elaborating on how evil Dahlia was... but they never really said why she was so evil. This stemmed from that thought. Not sure if it helps much though.

---

I don't see how Valentine is anything like Valerie.>_>

I've never really gotten this whole "Mary-Sue" thing. Granted, it would be annoying to have a character with too many talents or connections, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a character or characters being suspected as the reason a certain person from the games ended up being so twisted. It's fine to try and not go overboard with your characters, but don't let whiny reviewers make you go really out of your way to make them. On the internet, some people are just mean.

---

Are you calling me mean and whiny, TSS? She asked for help to keep from making a Mary Sue and I'm giving her honest advice. The thing about Sues isn't just that they're too perfect or too gifted: when a Sue shows up in a fic it's often a symptom of other flaws in the writing, and it's a good idea to nip those in the bud as soon as possible.



There's nothing wrong with that. But the way you originally phrased it makes me wonder how you're going to approach it. If the sisters are the "reason" she's so evil does that mean she was otherwise a pretty nice girl before hand? I think you could have a hard time selling that idea to your audience. The game already offers a few explanations for her meanness after all: her entire Kurain family thought she was powerless, and had no trouble giving her up when her father left, including her own mother. Her father didn't care enough about his own daughters to keep them both. She lived as a step-child in a rich house with a much older sister and parents that probably didn't love her--all these things would have contributed to her being the selfish, untrusting person we know. It's just hard to imagine that her mother's rejection at the age of 8 would have had less of an effect on her than anything childhood playmates could put her through.

If you want your sisters to help cause Dahlia's sociopathy, you ought to acknowledge these other factors. Rather than make them "The root of her evil" make them "the straw that broke the camel's back." If they are presented as one of many things that twisted Dahlia, that's a lot easier to swallow.

---

When did I call you any such thing? Are you even a reviewer? I was referring to the traumatizing event she mentioned, which one would think had to do with reviewers complaining.

Where are you getting all this information about Dahlia? We're never told a lot of the stuff you're saying. It's true Dahlia didn't have any power, but we're never told she was treated badly because of this in the village. And it's just stated that her father left her mother and took her and Iris with him-it's never stated that Morgan had any say in any of it, let alone just allowed it or rejected her children. I'd been hoping to someday write an analysis on Dahlia. I don't think that she initially hated her mother-when pretending to be Iris, it seems a lot of her true feelings shine through. I think she really pitied her. It's possible hatred blossomed after meeting Morgan while waiting for her sentence to be carried out, but before that...

---

I'm just teasing. You mentioned whiny and mean right after dismissing the point I'm trying to make. Sure some people take Mary Sue hate too far, but if the accusation comes up there's usually a reason. Ignoring that doesn't improve your writing.

Whether or not Dahlia hated her mother, we do know that she and Iris had zero spiritual powers, and that Morgan had little love for them because of this. Dahlia even hinted that if she hadn't been executed in time, Morgan might have murdered her in order for her plot against Maya to work. The fact that Mr. Hawthorne took both girls, realized he only wanted one, and then dumped Iris in Hazakura rather than simply send her home means either he's just a spiteful jerk, or Morgan didn't want Iris back. Either way it doesn't speak well of whatever homelife Dahlia had.

I'm not saying you have to interpret these things exactly like I have, but if Dahlia's "evil" is going to play a part in a fic, I don't think it's a good idea to discount these possible influences in favor of those coming from OCs.

---