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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
What does whether or not the real killer could be determined have to do with anything? In the games Phoenix/Apollo not only had to prove his client innocent, but also find the guilty party, even when he proved his client was innocent. Now Francis proved Kafuka didn't do it, and is leaving it at that. It's a clear discontinuity. And the fact that it's different lawyers has nothing to do with it, because Phoenix/Apollo didn't have to do that because of their personalities, but because of the legal system.


(And stop saying they had no idea who the killer was in 3-5. After Iris was proved innocent, there were only 2 possible murderers.)

1-3, 3-5 and 4-2 were only proven innocent through situational evidence.
Basically, Phoenix and Apollo just always come up with some theory as to why the
evidence against the defendant doesn't necessarily make them guilty. But because
it's just situational evidence, they have to prove who did it.

That, plus you shouldn't call that giant plothole of a useless things a 'legal system'.
Just think of how much it even contradicts itself with the 'evidence laws' in 1-5.
You're just pushing tihs matter because you have nothing else to complain about.

Also, don't forget Francis is a natural charmer. He's, unlike Phoenix or Apollo, been
able to actually get the judge on his side, (see F-1 (lol)) and I think it's more of a
matter where in Phoenix's case, the judge refuses to let the case go unsolved in
combination with Phoenix not being able to betray his conscience by letting a killer
go free (see 2-4 alt. ending) that leads them to go on until the killer is found.
Francis, with his confidence and true words, was able to convince the judge that
the killer needed not be found in the trial due to Kafuka's innocence. Plus, he hates
wasting time and the last straw being Kafuka's a cute school girl.

And finally, to top it all off, don't forget PW and AJ are games. Francis Equitas
is a sprite comic, and that leaves for certain alterations.
If the evidence proving the clients of 1-3, 3-5 and 4-2 is so solid as you claim it is,
then Capcom had to make the judge be unconvinced otherwise their plot would
meet a dead end. In other words...
Image

The defense rests.
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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I understand the name of that panel, lol.
It's definitely unheard of, though I suspected that you would go that route.
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title

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This was a predictable twist given the situation, but a great one nonetheless.
Absolutely loved the case so far ^^
Creator of Apollo Justice Case 5: Turnabout Substitution: Trailer - Download
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Greeny wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
What does whether or not the real killer could be determined have to do with anything? In the games Phoenix/Apollo not only had to prove his client innocent, but also find the guilty party, even when he proved his client was innocent. Now Francis proved Kafuka didn't do it, and is leaving it at that. It's a clear discontinuity. And the fact that it's different lawyers has nothing to do with it, because Phoenix/Apollo didn't have to do that because of their personalities, but because of the legal system.


(And stop saying they had no idea who the killer was in 3-5. After Iris was proved innocent, there were only 2 possible murderers.)

1-3, 3-5 and 4-2 were only proven innocent through situational evidence.
Basically, Phoenix and Apollo just always come up with some theory as to why the
evidence against the defendant doesn't necessarily make them guilty. But because
it's just situational evidence, they have to prove who did it.

That, plus you shouldn't call that giant plothole of a useless things a 'legal system'.
Just think of how much it even contradicts itself with the 'evidence laws' in 1-5.
You're just pushing tihs matter because you have nothing else to complain about.

Also, don't forget Francis is a natural charmer. He's, unlike Phoenix or Apollo, been
able to actually get the judge on his side, (see F-1 (lol)) and I think it's more of a
matter where in Phoenix's case, the judge refuses to let the case go unsolved in
combination with Phoenix not being able to betray his conscience by letting a killer
go free (see 2-4 alt. ending) that leads them to go on until the killer is found.
Francis, with his confidence and true words, was able to convince the judge that
the killer needed not be found in the trial due to Kafuka's innocence. Plus, he hates
wasting time and the last straw being Kafuka's a cute school girl.

And finally, to top it all off, don't forget PW and AJ are games. Francis Equitas
is a sprite comic, and that leaves for certain alterations.
If the evidence proving the clients of 1-3, 3-5 and 4-2 is so solid as you claim it is,
then Capcom had to make the judge be unconvinced otherwise their plot would
meet a dead end. In other words...
Image

The defense rests.


tl;dr
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
Greeny wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
What does whether or not the real killer could be determined have to do with anything? In the games Phoenix/Apollo not only had to prove his client innocent, but also find the guilty party, even when he proved his client was innocent. Now Francis proved Kafuka didn't do it, and is leaving it at that. It's a clear discontinuity. And the fact that it's different lawyers has nothing to do with it, because Phoenix/Apollo didn't have to do that because of their personalities, but because of the legal system.


(And stop saying they had no idea who the killer was in 3-5. After Iris was proved innocent, there were only 2 possible murderers.)

1-3, 3-5 and 4-2 were only proven innocent through situational evidence.
Basically, Phoenix and Apollo just always come up with some theory as to why the
evidence against the defendant doesn't necessarily make them guilty. But because
it's just situational evidence, they have to prove who did it.

That, plus you shouldn't call that giant plothole of a useless things a 'legal system'.
Just think of how much it even contradicts itself with the 'evidence laws' in 1-5.
You're just pushing tihs matter because you have nothing else to complain about.

Also, don't forget Francis is a natural charmer. He's, unlike Phoenix or Apollo, been
able to actually get the judge on his side, (see F-1 (lol)) and I think it's more of a
matter where in Phoenix's case, the judge refuses to let the case go unsolved in
combination with Phoenix not being able to betray his conscience by letting a killer
go free (see 2-4 alt. ending) that leads them to go on until the killer is found.
Francis, with his confidence and true words, was able to convince the judge that
the killer needed not be found in the trial due to Kafuka's innocence. Plus, he hates
wasting time and the last straw being Kafuka's a cute school girl.

And finally, to top it all off, don't forget PW and AJ are games. Francis Equitas
is a sprite comic, and that leaves for certain alterations.
If the evidence proving the clients of 1-3, 3-5 and 4-2 is so solid as you claim it is,
then Capcom had to make the judge be unconvinced otherwise their plot would
meet a dead end. In other words...
Image

The defense rests.


tl;dr

- At the other cases, the evidence was circumstancial.
- Phoenix and Apollo make their cases, but they're not solid enough so they need real killers.
- The canon legal system itself is plotholed.
- Francis is able to get the judge on his side, and has confidence and true words that can convince people the real killer doesn't need to be found. Also, he hates to waste time.
- PW and AJ are games. Francis Equitas is a sprite comic. This leaves space for some alterations.

ll;wyrn?
Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title

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Woo! I was right at the most predictable plot twist!

Yaaaaaasss!!!
Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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That was a plot twist? :yuusaku:
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Wait, what was?
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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That Francis would rest his case where he did, apparently.

Before I start 1: I don't mean to offend or insult anyone in this. It's just fun to argue :) (mostly directed at Greeny)
Before I start 2: Did they ever say in-game that you have to find the guilty party to get a not guilty sentence? Or is my mind playing tricks on me? (C'mon, everyone, speak up about whether they did or not!)

Prosecutor Scorpion wrote:
- At the other cases, the evidence was circumstancial.

Ha ha, no. In 1-3 and 3-5 there was no motive, and the crime was committed in a place where the defendant had no access to. 4-2 doesn't have hard evidence like that, but the case was pretty convincing with Wesley's testimony, since because of that testimony Pal's left side was facing Wocky, meaning he couldn't have shot his right temple. 1-3 and 3-5 are not at all circumstantial. 4-2 is a debate. Turnabout Despair is completely circumstantial. I'll elaborate if you want me to but I don't want to just go out and insult Greeny's works so openly and unprovoked...

Quote:
- Phoenix and Apollo make their cases, but they're not solid enough so they need real killers.

"The crime scene was Studio 2/the Inner Temple, which the defendant could not access because of Mr. Monkey/Dusky Bridge burning down." That's not solid?

Quote:
- The canon legal system itself is plotholed.

In what way? It's pretty consistent.

Quote:
- Francis is able to get the judge on his side, and has confidence and true words that can convince people the real killer doesn't need to be found. Also, he hates to waste time.

Like Franzy(/Edgy/Godot/Klavier) would allow that.
(And, if they said that you need to find the guilty party in-game, then whether or not the judge favors the defense attorney does not matter, since it isn't up to the judge if they need to find the real killer.)

Quote:
- PW and AJ are games. Francis Equitas is a sprite comic. This leaves space for some alterations.

That's a matter of opinion on how true you expect/want/demand fanstuffs to be to the original :-P
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
And, if they said that you need to find the guilty party in-game, then whether or not the judge favors the defense attorney does not matter, since it isn't up to the judge if they need to find the real killer.

Well I'll just end all the argument with beating this little statement.....

It IS up to the judge to land a verdict, and he can do so whenever he wants to.
This means before even any solid evidence is presented or the killer is found;
the judge is the leader of the trial and if the case is clear to him he can land
a verdict. If you want accuracy to the games, then just lose the game once
with a lot of stupid objections when no solid evidence is brought into play to
see what I mean... The judge hates wasting time and he'll land his verdict strongly
depending on his view of the defense attorney.

And this basically beats all the rest of your point. It's the judge's decision in the end.
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Last edited by Greeny on Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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*edited stupid double post*
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Greeny wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
And, if they said that you need to find the guilty party in-game, then whether or not the judge favors the defense attorney does not matter, since it isn't up to the judge if they need to find the real killer.

Well I'll just end all the argument with beating this little statement.....

It IS up to the judge to land a verdict, and he can do so whenever he wants to.
This means before even any solid evidence is presented or the killer is found;
the judge is the leader of the trial and if the case is clear to him he can land
a verdict. If you want accuracy to the games, then just lose the game once
with a lot of stupid objections when no solid evidence is brought into play to
see what I mean... The judge hates wasting time and he'll land his verdict strongly
depending on his view of the defense attorney.

And this basically beats all the rest of your point. It's the judge's decision in the end.


Nope. How about 3-3? The judge says that he himself knows that Tigre impersonated Phoenix, which would mean Tigre is the murderer. But the judge still couldn't declare Tigre guilty because there was no hard evidence. If it was up to him to make a verdict whenever he wanted, he would've done it there since he knew that Tigre was guilty. Yes, depending on the laws, they might not have had the evidence necessary to get Tigre found guilty, but if it was up to the judge personally he could have at least declared Maggey not guilty.

(And judges do not have unlimited power, period. They are required to follow rules and laws, and if there is a law saying that you can't declare someone innocent unless someone else is proven guilty without a doubt, then he can't declare someone innocent unless someone else is proven guilty without a doubt, no matter how much he wants to. I'm not saying that there is a rule like that, because I don't remember, but MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE DOES (HINT HINT).)



Tee hee. Arguing is fun. Brings back memories of TheBaronandEma's pop quiz.
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Bad Player wrote:
And judges do not have unlimited power, period. They are required to follow rules and laws, and if there is a law saying that you can't declare someone innocent unless someone else is proven guilty without a doubt, then he can't declare someone innocent unless someone else is proven guilty without a doubt, no matter how much he wants to. I'm not saying that there is a rule like that, because I don't remember, but MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE DOES (HINT HINT.

No, someone actually does say something alike... Mia does. But she just says it like
"proving someone innocent isn't enough, Phoenix, you have to prove who did it!".
Does this mean this is an actual awknowledged law? No. So there is no such law.
Mia means it in a way that it might be the only way to tip the balance on the judge's
verdict. "You have to prove who did it to convince the judge," is the unspoken end
to that sentence. But there are other ways to convince people...

Bad Player wrote:
Nope. How about 3-3? The judge says that he himself knows that Tigre impersonated Phoenix, which would mean Tigre is the murderer. But the judge still couldn't declare Tigre guilty because there was no hard evidence. If it was up to him to make a verdict whenever he wanted, he would've done it there since he knew that Tigre was guilty. Yes, depending on the laws, they might not have had the evidence necessary to get Tigre found guilty, but if it was up to the judge personally he could have at least declared Maggey not guilty.

Of course he couldn't. It WAS up to the judge personally, but he couldn't; he has the obligation
to run the court correctly and that means he has to have solid evidence before he can hand
downn a verdict. Given the situation, it could technically still have been a very well set-up
crime plotted by evil mastermind Maggey Birde.... Situational evidence and all.
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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I love reading arguements. <3

As for these cases, I just got spoiled galore. :P I RAELLY need to get GS3 and 4 soon. >< Stupid Gaming Market in Swed...I mean Saturnus.
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Hello, Adrian.

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Vordox wrote:
I love reading arguements. <3

As for these cases, I just got spoiled galore. :P I RAELLY need to get GS3 and 4 soon. >< Stupid Gaming Market in Swed...I mean Saturnus.

WaitSwedWhatnow?
Ooooooh...
Damn, I did'nt know we were that active here O.o (Lol, alot of references to my cr@ppy homecountry always comes to my mind... :nick: Gotta stop doing that! :grey: )
Anyway, ontopic... I love ur sprite comic, It's really thrilling and i did'nt know you were that awesome at spriting!
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UPDATE!

Yeah! Woo!
Spoiler:
Verdict lol. Franzy doesn't like it, that's for sure. XD

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I hate you. I dr, so where is the evidence Kafuka couldn't have done it?
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1) The murderer had a button. That button belonged to a boy's uniform.
Kafuka could not have had a boy's uniform.

2) The murder was premeditated. The killer brought a knife to the scene, meaning
they had the motive the kill before the meeting. Oukami's secret was unknown to
Kafuka, therefore she would not bring a knife to the scene because she would only
recieve the killing intent after Oukami reveals his motives.

3) If you don't have anything constructive to say, GTFO.
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Okay, I r. I am now satisfied. Interesting. Looking forward to the third case. Love you.
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fffffffffff the way everything goes Francis's way is starting to make me mad almost. D:
CAN'T WAIT FOR THE THIRD CASE. Let it be INTERAAAAAACTIIIVE
wit da
AAAAUUUDDIIIEEENCE
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Franziska's reaction to the verdict was funny. : P

I also lol'd with "Not Guilty lol".

Lastly, you said case 3 would be twice as epic. I look forward to see you try to make that right.
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Greeny wrote:
1) The murderer had a button. That button belonged to a boy's uniform.
Kafuka could not have had a boy's uniform.

It's a button. It's not that rare. All she had to do was snatch a button from one of her male friends (or just snatch it from a random guy in the hall) and plant it at the scene. Heck, she could've bought a suit that had the same button, or even bought the button separately! It's not that difficult to get a plain gold button.

Quote:
2) The murder was premeditated. The killer brought a knife to the scene, meaning
they had the motive the kill before the meeting. Oukami's secret was unknown to
Kafuka, therefore she would not bring a knife to the scene because she would only
recieve the killing intent after Oukami reveals his motives.

If grades were a motive before, why can't they be a motive now?

Quote:
3) If you don't have anything constructive to say, GTFO.

Franzy was not happy at all xD I can't wait for the next trial where Tsuki and Franky get to talk ('cause we need to resolve Tsuki!)
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title

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Not Guilty lol.
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Furtzurbus wrote:
:udgy: :Not Guilty lol.

Fix'd...

The judge has finally gone senile... :godot:
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DarkCoffeeJazz wrote:
Furtzurbus wrote:
:udgy: :Not Guilty lol.

Fix'd...

The judge has finally gone senile... :godot:


Blasphemy! You imply that he wasn't already! :chinami:
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Guys, who said that Case 3 is beginning yet, Just cause the verdict has been done, doesn't mean the chapter of Case 2 is over yet.
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I knew that. =3

What good is a case if the def. lawyer doesn't have to 'prove' something to someone in the defense lobby? =D
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Omg, that's got to be the worst plot twist ever.

And I mean EVER.
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.....
Welcome to reality.
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title

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I don't think everyone likes the ZOMG REAL LAW factor you've used. =/

But I do, I say it adds to the quality of the comic, having an intelligent (and organised) author.

The defense (of Greeny? =/) rests.
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bibliomaniac wrote:
DarkCoffeeJazz wrote:
Furtzurbus wrote:
:udgy: :Not Guilty lol.

Fix'd...

The judge has finally gone senile... :godot:


Blasphemy! You imply that he wasn't already! :chinami:



No.... he was only half senile. He at least kept his verdicts sane and accurate, did he not?
:godot: *draws finger across brim of fedora hat to the left, whilst moving head to right in a dramatic expression of smugness as he smiles...*
I'm gonna have to record that emote, lol.
But... as was said in the first sentence of this reply....
There is no contradiction/blasphemy.
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Sphinx wrote:
Omg, that's got to be the worst plot twist ever.

And I mean EVER.


Ha! :godot:
Prove it. I'm afraid it's not enough to have an opinion on the subject, but if you're going to imply it as a fact, you must have evidence.
*smiles smugly*
I personally found it to be an extraordinary plot twist. I wasn't expecting him to actually use real law to, zomg, do his job!
I was expecting a moral crisis on whether or not to accuse Tsuki, or allow his defendant to go guilty.
Though I can't agree with the man's decision, I found it to be a third option I had never considered.
I found it to be quite... cool.
So just because this comic isn't totally "phoenix wright style court system", doesn't make the plot twist bad at all. It just means you think this is Phoenix Wright... but it's not.
It's Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova. A whole new set of "rules" apply to this universe.
Sooner you get your head out of the usual "PW bluff/must find and accuse real killer to prove innocence" thing, the better. At least for the intents and purposes of THIS comic.

*Takes a swig of his mocha coffee*
Mmmm... choco-coffee......yum.


Though Greeny, I'd advise maybe finding the real killer in comic 3 when you start on it. I don't want him to do nothing every time, after all.... but I don't think you intend to do that, so no worries. :godot:

From one writer to another, keep up the good work.
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Yeah, there hasn't properly been a real killer yet...
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DarkCoffeeJazz wrote:
It's Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova. A whole new set of "rules" apply to this universe.
Sooner you get your head out of the usual "PW bluff/must find and accuse real killer to prove innocence" thing, the better. At least for the intents and purposes of THIS comic.

Doesn't having Franziska (and the judge) kind of confirm it's the same universe, and thus the same set of rules, as Phoenix Wright? :eh?:
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Plus Phoenix was mentioned in one of the first comics. Oh, and Machi Tobaye.
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Let us not forget, again, Greeny himself said that poking a real killer is more necessary in a game than in a sprite comic. And, further on, more things that would be necessary in a game become dispenseable in the comic.

Also, I had an evil idea. WE SHOULD ALL START TO SUPORT FRANCISXFRANZISKA AND START CALLING IT "FRANFRAN" *shotandmauled*
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Guess who's druuuuunk~!

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Prosecutor Scorpion wrote:
Also, I had an evil idea. WE SHOULD ALL START TO SUPORT FRANCISXFRANZISKA AND START CALLING IT "FRANFRAN" *shotandmauled*

I second this!!
*shot*
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Riu wrote:
Prosecutor Scorpion wrote:
Also, I had an evil idea. WE SHOULD ALL START TO SUPORT FRANCISXFRANZISKA AND START CALLING IT "FRANFRAN" *shotandmauled*

I second this!!
*shot*


I am a FRANFRAN supporter.
*shot thousands of times*
WHY ME?!?
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
DarkCoffeeJazz wrote:
It's Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova. A whole new set of "rules" apply to this universe.
Sooner you get your head out of the usual "PW bluff/must find and accuse real killer to prove innocence" thing, the better. At least for the intents and purposes of THIS comic.

Doesn't having Franziska (and the judge) kind of confirm it's the same universe, and thus the same set of rules, as Phoenix Wright? :eh?:


*coughcoughMASONSYSTEMcoughcough*

That is all.
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Re: Francis Equitas: Ace Casanova (and Attorney)Topic%20Title
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I would actually put her behind the seat that's marked "murder" since she did kill him, then again Francis may have another opinion, but she is STILL the killer.

Kinda pisses me off how he did it. But I did NOT see it coming.(Which means this Comic isn't as predictable as I thought most are.) Which is a big Kudos to you, Greeny.
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