I think that in the end politicians only want freedom that benefits their own agendas and careers. The same goes with free speech, freedom of religion, freedom to petition the government, and practically any other freedom you can think off. For example, the Christian Right of this country want to impose their own BS morality on EVERYBODY. Their goal is essentially to create a theocracy. One thing that always pisses me off is that they seem to play the victim card. The whole, "Christians are oppressed and wahhh!" How can they say that when they make up the majority of the population, instill Christmas everywhere during the holiday season, force children to say "One nation under God" every morning, put "In God We Trust" on our currency, and the fact you can't go two blocks without seeing a church? They don't want freedom of religion, they just want Christianity and no other belief system. And before anyone attacks me, note that I'm not referring to the general Christian population, I'm referring to the politicians and people of power who hold these beliefs. It's truly a scary thing when I see this coming from these kinds of people. The Founding Fathers would be horrified if they saw how things were run today. Back then, religion was supposed to be a person's own business and it wasn't supposed to have any place in politics.

Honestly, I think that places in Europe have more freedom than we do. America is a walking contradiction in a lot of things.

The far right is the main group I had in mind there, but I wouldn't be surprised if we leftists were just as bad in some areas and just didn't realize it--which is the main reason I didn't explicitly name the far right.

Still, the issue of "imposing morality on others" is one that's been bugging me for a while. After all, isn't that what pretty much every movement is doing? Even the "live and let live" approach has this problem, as it tells people to ignore things that they may perceive as wrong--and whose place is it to tell other people what is right and what is wrong?

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I agree with Pierre, what's wrong with discussing this? It's a good topic with lots of discussion potential.



That must be an American thing, then, cause we never had to say something like that during school or have that on our money. And... um... well, I do have the old St. Georg's church close to my home, but other than that, I think the next church is pretty far off... maybe...

C-A

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It's not a witch hunt mentality. Multiple witnesses who've had no contact between each other, all with corroborating stories coming out to accuse someone is not a witch hunt. It's most likely people who've been terrified to speak up. And the way people reject these accusations when it's a famous entertainer is sickening. Every accusation, especially ones which show a pattern like this, should be taken seriously. And luckily they are. When I said "he's getting what he deserves", I meant that accusations against him are finally being taken seriously instead of being handwaved due to his public standing. I never said he was guilty. I was using his case to show how you can be arrested and tried for crimes that happened decades ago.

Edit: Rereading what I said earlier, I can easily see how it sounded like that though. My apologies for not being clearer and coming across as hasty or aggressive!

DoMaya's examples are mostly deformations of what actually happened, as I pointed out. I can't find much information about the first one, but given the incredibly low conviction rate on rape, I'm assuming there was either a confession or some solid evidence.



In a lot of cases the fear can be too overwhelming to fight back. You're right though, there is a definite problem in the way rape trials work in that it often comes down to no evidence.
You can withdraw consent whenever you want though, as you point out, she could have been tired. From the article it seems she just wanted to have a shower and the guy started giving her orders and forcing her to do things. Which is, y'know, rape.



All too frequently? The conviction rate is less than one in thirty! People get away with rape sickeningly frequently. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 46058.html

Also everyone accepts that men can get raped. The article even talks about it. Feminists talk about the stigma of male rape too.

Edit: Also, 2-8% of reports are false http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf but the number of actual accusations against a person is lower than 2%.

I would like to say I'm enjoying the discussion and everyone's civility too. It's a nice change from most forums where this would instantly become a flame war.

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Regardless of pattern, yes, it should be taken seriously but not at absolute face value. It is entirely possible that someone is lying or, at least, exaggerating something. Example, look at the movie "Mother Dearest" about Joan Crawford and how she treated her children, and the book it was based on, written by Christine Crawford. Since Joan Crawford is dead, we can't get a very good view of the overall story - all we have is the book, which heavily indicates Joan to have been a terrible mother, and maybe a few people who knew Joan and saying she wasn't like that. All we see are heavily biased parts. Of course, since Joan is dead, we can't really conclude this in any way, but the fact is that we shouldn't take a biased perspective at face value.



That's fucking stupid. Especially in terms like that example, whether it was exaggerated or wasn't, of just prior to climax, the consent being withdrawn. That's fucking stupid - literally fucking stupid. What, I agree to go to a hotel with a guy I met at a bar cause I'm horny, but as soon as his dick is in me, I can say "You know what, I don't want this after all" and can cry rape for his dick being in me for even a second after I say that?
Or the other way around, a guy after penetration can think he doesn't wanna do it with the woman anymore and removes himself and such.

It's still pretty dumb. It's a loophole, yes, but a heavily biased one, again, cause it CAN be used to cause more trouble than it's worth.

C-A

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No one's taking it at face value, what do you think he's on trial for? It's somewhat unlikely though, that all the accusers, completely unbeknownst to the police and without having any contact, are lying.

Actually it's only rape if *after* the woman says she doesn't want it anymore, the dude carries on. It's not difficult, humans are allowed to change their mind and if they don't want something, they don't want something, and their wishes have to be respected. If they start having sex and the woman says "No, stop, I don't want this anymore" and the guy carries on, how is that not rape?

Also the guy in the example is often cited as an example of justice gone wrong - and it was. That's nothing to do with the validity of informed consent. Also the woman was arrested and sentenced for conspiring to pervert the course of justice. Unfortunately there's always going to be a tiny fraction of people who falsely accuse others. Look at people who are falsely accused or set up for murder. That doesn't make the laws surrounding murder any less valid.

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Yeah, it is only an American thing. For a country that was supposed to be secular ESCAPING the religious countries of Europe, we've become the exact opposite. Europe is WAY more secular than we are. Over here, don't even bother running for office if you're an atheist. Polls have shown that atheists are the most distrusted group of people in America (even worse than rapists) and also show that few would vote for an atheist President.

Back in Europe, they don't care what your religion is, just as long as you can do the job. They don't have this fundamentalist bullshit. That's another reason why I'm probably going to move. I'd really like to live in places like Canada, the UK, or Japan.

America is pretty crazy to us Euros religion wise but just a quick reminder that the UK does still have established religion and that high-ranking members of the clergy sit in the House of Lords. Also when I lived in the UK as a kid we sang hymns in school and all that.

Still, as you say, nothing compared to the South of the US.

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Yeah, I'm aware of that. Still, the UK is more secular than the US in a lot of ways, like I mentioned running for office. Also, I don't think that people will hate you as much if you're gay or atheist. I've read that church attendance rates are going down in Britain and that more people are putting down "No Religion."

Yeah, I've read the same kind of thing. I think it's more that people don't care if you're an atheist or religious, at least in my experience. I just like the irony really, that the UK has a state religion and yet it's one of the most religiously diverse countries.

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Yes I can't think of many things where religion is actively involved in day-to-day life outside of churches and mosques in the UK. There's small groups here and there like a Christian group at universities and the like but nothing on a grand scale.

From me estimations it's because it's got such a diverse ethnicity due to immigration that mean it's such a patchwork of religions, customs and nationalities.

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You know what really grinds my gears?

People saying that it's easier to be nice to someone than to be mean.

Okay, I'm not saying you should go around and be a total asshat to everyone you meet all the time. I follow the principal that, if I meet someone new, they have a certain amount of polite respect I hold for them and I am overall polite to them. Depending on their actions, specifically towards me, will determine whether I "take some points off". If someone is being a jerk to me, I'm a jerk back.

But this stupid idea that it's easy to be nice to someone all the time. It's idiotic! It's not easy! And not just when you're in a bad mood yourself, where being nice to someone is extra hard, no, it's overall very difficult to be that way. Trying to constantly be nice to someone is difficult because you absolutely have to watch out what you say, how you say it, when you say it and also towards whom you say it. One wrong step and you're already not nice anymore, ruining the entire idea of this being easy.

Being "mean" is much easier. You don't really have to worry if what you say may seem too inapropriate. And if it is inapropriate, someone would speak up and you would be able to apologize. But overall it's easier because there's no constant pressure of watching your words and gestures.

Like I said, no need to be a total dick to everyone, but being "mean" is easier than being nice.
Especially if it's towards someone who doesn't deserve it.

C-A

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You know what I'm fucking pissed off at right now? This whole hashtag slacktavism bullshit that people are trending online right now.

#YesAllWomen is fucking ridiculous. Firstly, all women? Do people out there honestly think that ALL women are the exact same in their needs, wants, problems, and issues? Secondly, have these feminists ever considered that what they're doing is automatically placing women below men? With ideologies like that, we're going to raise girls to fear all men and with the mentality that they're in constant danger. I've heard that, "no woman is completely safe from rape." Oh no fucking shit. You know what else? No one is completely safe from getting murdered. No one is completely safe from being blown up in a public square. No one is completely safe from getting robbed. The list goes on and on and on. YES, rape is a problem. YES, it's a traumatizing and humiliating event that breaks people to their core. But to raise people with this hysterical mentality isn't helping anything. It's child abuse and just irrationality.

Thirdly, why do these feminists lose their shit whenever men try to defend themselves or raise different points? They think, "Shut the hell up. You're not women. You can't talk about this." BULL FUCKING SHIT. I'm not a black person. But does that mean I can't talk about racism? Fourthly, has it ever occurred to these people that men face sexism and emotional abuse too? Men get hurt. Men get raped. And men can be broken. I know this, because I have had firsthand experience of being emotionally abused by women and the victim of sexism towards me because I'm male. Right now, I'm going through a huge and traumatizing emotional experience as you all know about. The people I talk to make it sound like men can't feel emotions and that we're petty for crying over these things. It drives me to insanity.

And fourthly, the hashtag #YesAllWomen isn't going to do jack shit regardless of its intentions. It's the exact same thing as #Kony2012 and we all know how that turned out. Slacktavism at its finest. People THINK they're doing something by re-tweeting or typing a few characters. It baffles me to no end that people delude themselves into thinking that they've changed anything. Listen, I'm all for using words and print to spread a message. Some of the finest pieces of activism have been written works, Civil Disobedience for example. But if you honestly think that five seconds tweeting something is going to move something, you are sorely mistaken. Get out there into the real world. Organize events that change things. Petition your government. Get people together. And while we're at it, let's realize that sexism can affect BOTH genders and that we should all do our best to combat bigotry of ALL kinds.

I'm only a high school kid that's still at the whim of other people. But when I go out there into the real world, I'm going to change it for the better. In someway, somehow.

Dude did you even read the discussion a few pages back?

Also the point of #YesAllWomen is for people (men) to be able to see what women face instead of getting defensive every time. It's not slacktivism. Of course it's gonna be ineffective if you just say "pfff stupid women overreacting about rape they don't know the problem us men face". You have to go in with an actual open mind and actually be willing to accept that MAYBE, just MAYBE women are right about the shit that happens to them and that they have it worse.

Also saying "not all men" is derailing an important discussion. It's an awful thing to do. And no one says "you can't talk about this" of course you can, just not to say stuff like "not all men commit rape"(wow really?! Holy crap) or "men get raped too" because it doesn't contribute to discussion in the slightest. It's just another of instance of dudes hijacking conversation to make it about them. Hell, I'm a dude and my reaction is "yeah the way society treats women is awful" not "WELL I DIDN'T RAPE ANYONE"

I'll just paste this very good reponse from Let's Player Voidburger about the whole "but feminism only wants to help women" thing you keep saying:



I apologise if I sound vitriolic, but this was discussed at length like a page ago (the feminism issue, at least) and there are billion articles online explaining the virtues and successes of #YesAllWomen. It's awareness raising and educational. Please read the article at least, if you don't listen to me.

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Oh Feminism again? Sure I can go a few for a few more rounds of that.

Tophat I'm not sure it's all fair what you are saying you seem to be making some wild generalisations about feminists. Feminists will put feminine issues first, that's a given but it doesn't mean they are denying masculine problems and unaware of them or considering women 'superior'.

Consider two equal size asteroids on a collision course with Earth, one is a month from impact and the other is 3 years. Both are massive problems but one definitely warrants more immediate attention.

Feminine issues we (as a society) have greater capacity to deal with in ensuring equity and fairness via legislation. As I've said already aspects such as rape I'm not sure we'll ever be able to fully control (at least on an ethical level).

Yes there will be feminists who are 'extreme' in their views and act as if all men are monsters but as has been stated before these are minorities. Maybe vocal minorities but minorities none the less and rational thinking people (the ones who'll get stuff done) are aware of this.

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Nope. Wasn't paying attention. I am now though.



If you want to play the "we have it worse" card, I can give you more examples. People starving in Africa, people in war torn countries, etc. No one is saying that women are over-reacting, I'm saying that problems are problems and that everyone has them. But you want to know who really have it bad? The women who REALLY deserve this kind of attention? The women and girls who live in the oppressive Middle Eastern societies. For as much as the women in the West face problems, the females over there are like cattle. It's fucking disgusting, and we need to have activism over there.

And as I said, #YesAllWomen is trying to reinforce the mentality that women are helpless victims. It doesn't do anything at all. Tweeting about shit doesn't change anything.



You want to know why? Because every feminist online that I've talked to says that since I'm male, I can't talk about feminism. And every feminist I've talked to makes men out to be misogynistic pigs that want to rape women. Perhaps I'm dealing with the wrong crowd here, but those are the responses that I've gotten.



So what, you're saying that men are responsible for everything wrong? You want to put the blame on men, and not look at any other factors? Both men AND women create these stigmas. You people are doing it right now with #YesAllWomen which automatically paints women as helpless victims.

No one is encouraged to be violent. The schools here are telling kids to be the EXACT OPPOSITE. Women are given the exact same opportunities as men in America. We still have that slight wage gap, but it's closing every year and eventually will be nonexistent.

The feminism I've seen has done NOTHING to further equality nor improve society. And it did nothing to help me when I was going through these kinds of problems.



I'm not generalizing, I'm telling you what I have experienced from the feminists that I've talked to. They do ignore masculine problems and just don't care.



That's a terrible comparison that doesn't apply here. What if at the same time, a man was getting raped and a woman was getting raped? Aren't both terrible problems that should be solved with equal attention?



Yeah, well those are the only feminists that I've ever seen. I haven't seen feminism do anything in today's age. If you can provide me with some things the modern feminist movement has done, I'd gladly look at them.

TopHat, do you know what the patriarchy is? It's not "evil men are oppressing women" which is a completely ridiculous strawman, it's the systemic bias in favour of men inherent in society.

The issue isn't one of who has it worse, it's that millions and millions of dudes literally refuse to see the problems women face every day. #YesAllWomen is about providing a platform for women to express that and you're completely missing the point of it. Also nice derailing tactic. I'm not allowed to say women have it worse than men because of what happens in the Middle East? Right...

With regards to #YesAllWomen, you're familiar with the concept of raising awareness, yes? That's what it is. It teaches people. Makes them see things they wouldn't have otherwise.

I really don't understand though, these are concepts found on like the wikipedia page of third-wave feminism, it would take you maybe 5 minutes to educate yourself on what feminism is instead of sounding like TAA.

Successes of modern feminism? Free birth control for women in many countries, including, I believe, the US. Starting to raise awareness about the idea that gender roles are a social construct. Shining a light on the awful way rape victims are treated and helping to tackle the problem.

Basically, your vision of feminism seems to be entirely limited to the unhinged nutters on tumblr. Also please read up on #YesAllWomen. I'd link you to some srticles but I'm phone posting. I think it's funny though that you think the wage gap is almost over when in some western countries it's out by like a factor of 10.

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There is no patriarchy. If there was, why do women have rights, privileges, benefits here in the US which are the exact same as men? If society truly favored men, you wouldn't have any of these, only men would.



Again, #YesAllWomen is a huge generalization. Who the hell out there, male or female, can claim that they speak for all women? Can't you accept the fact that ALL people of ALL genders, races, religions, and ideologies face problems every day? Why not #YesAllPeople?



No, it's telling people that by default women are helpless victims that are below men. It doesn't make them see anything, it generalizes. It's no better than slacktavism like #Kony2012 because it doesn't change anything at all.



I'm not a feminist and I support all those things. So do millions of other men and women. Your point? You don't have to be a feminist to push for these things. Just like you don't have to be gay to support gay marriage.

"Maybe we are all women???" - Cloud Strife, FFVII

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Okay, I'm getting into this although a part of me says I should not rise to this. But here I have to say something. Yes, men AND women created the stigmas. But remember that, until the first World War, women were meant to stay at home and all that. Heck, look at the clothes they were given to wear...! Big skirts, heavy and restricting. It was designed that way to keep women from moving and doing things anything more strainuous than housework - and then only cooking and cleaning, because fixing anything is a man's job.
WWI, women had to suddenly provide for their children - and themselves - because husbands were in the force. So off with the long skirts, into the sweet flapper dresses and cutting their long hair into bobs for good measure of free head movement.
Yeah, men did that. And women went along with it because they were raised to be like that.



Okay, rape is a problem for the person that never gets "solved". Sure, society may say the problem is solved when the rapist (man or woman) is thrown into jail and the family and friends eventually move on, but the victim will have to deal with that problem for the rest of their live. So no, rape doesn't get "solved".



Susan B. Anthony, that's why.



I KNEW IT!

C-A

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Oh wow. Well, we heard it here first, the patriarchy doesn't exist! Guess we can wrap up feminism guys!
Oh wait no we can't. Just read the definition, you are completely missing the point. http://londonfeministnetwork.org.uk/home/patriarchy
In the US, only 18 percent of politicians are female. Less than 3% of senior management figures are female. Women had to fight for birth control to be readily available yet doctors will prescribe Viagra really easily. You've never had a female President. And yet the patriarchy doesn't exist? Just talk to literally any woman about how they're condescended to in STEM fields.


Again you are completely and utterly missing the point. How is it a generalisation when people are literally telling stories that happened to them? No one's claiming they're speaking for everyone, they're just recounting horrible things that happened that people like you constantly ignore. Stop bringing up other people dude just let the women speak for once. Read their experiences. Then maybe you'll understand why they're so pissed and that feminism is still so necessary. And it's not #YesAllPeople because racism is a completely different problem to sexism, and men face nowhere near the gender related problems women do. Well, maybe trans-men do. To solve problems you need actual focused action, ie. feminism, and not some abstract "human movement" which'll never get off the ground.


Except it educated people on women's problems. Sorry you're wrong, this is literally nothing like Kony2012 because women's problems are a thing you can actually raise awareness for and get the average person to change their behaviour, whereas that doesn't work for capturing an African child soldier leader. False analogy, etc.



Then hooray, you're a feminist. Also your analogy would only work if I had said "women brought these things to light". Being a male feminist is more akin to being an LGBT ally.
Also asking me what my point is? Dude, are you just ignoring everything I write? These problems were BROUGHT TO LIGHT by feminists, which is how the general public even knew they existed as issues to get behind. Also if you push these things you are by definition a feminist.

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You know what really grinds my gears? Morons on the internet with internet logic.

Once again I am being called a troll cause I apparently have the AUDACITY to say that I have a problem with a game's rather large flaw. Case in point, Danganronpa. "Ghababababa, how DARE you say this game is not awesome! Agbabababa! MOST UNORTHODOX! YOU TROLL!!" because yeah, I say Danganronpa fails heavily on the murder mystery part, considering all the mysteries are so freaking easy to figure out.

Or even in VII's case, just mentioning that there is ONE thing I don't like about it, I get labelled a troll. Simply because I do not praise a game to all high heavens. Fuck you people and your dumb internet logic. I don't call someone a troll simply cause they say they don't like FF XIII or Harvest Moon.

C-A

PS: Also I'd like to show this image and response for the debate, cause I think it's funny.

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Yeah, I'm not taking a definition off a feminist site seriously. Too much bias.

Perhaps, I should have rephrased that. What I should have said is that although there was a patriarchy before in America, there is none NOW. Women have the exact same rights as men. And not once did I say that women should stop fighting. We still have some sexism and there still is that wage gap. I'm just saying that it isn't as bad as it was a hundred years ago. Black people have civil rights like anyone else, but we still of the NAACP for example.

Uh, and the fact that there are less female politicians is due to men how exactly? Any American citizen has the right to vote. Women make up 50.8% of the American population. If they want more female politicians, appoint and vote in more women. The majority of men would support this too. Personally though, I would only vote for people based off their capability to serve. Male or female. Black or white. Christian or atheist. It doesn't matter to me.

The reason why birth control is so controversial isn't because of some patriarchy. It's because of the religious nutjobs that are trying to impose their Christian moral BS on all of us. Viagra is to help men with erectile dysfunction, not prevent pregnancy. The idea is that if men can perform sexually, then they can have children. It has nothing to do with a "male dominated society." We should be fighting the Christian fundies on this issue, not men.



They're telling individual stories that apply to some people, but not all. And we're not ignoring anything. We're saying that #YesAllWomen is misleading and doesn't do anything. "Let the women speak for once?" Then why are they allowed to spread hashtags like #KillAllMen, yet when us males call that hate speech, we're looked upon as misogynistic pigs? They're pissed off? Who the hell are you to say that men don't face gender related problems that are just as bad? Why is it okay for them to generalize and say that men are horrible people?

Why is it that this whole #YesAllWomen BS is only happening now, and not before? You want to know why? Because of this mass hysteria towards Elliot Rodger. Because this guy was a misogynist, women are reacting in terror as if all men are like him. I'm sick of being compared to this bastard and I'm sick of this bullshit.

Again, the feminism that I've seen has not solved any problems. It's only promoting the victimization of women as helpless people and is not for equality.



It hasn't educated anyone. It's made ALL women out to be helpless victims. FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME. Tweeting about something DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. The majority of people out there using #YesAllWomen are doing fuck all else. They're not out there trying to do anything. They're sitting on their asses glued to their computer and smartphone screens thinking that if they send in a few characters, they're automatically activists. Again, this is slacktavism.



Again, I AM NOT A FEMINIST. Stop calling me things that I am not. AGAIN FOR THE LAST TIME. I am a secular humanist dedicated to the advancement of ALL people of ALL backgrounds. Women are only part of that for me. Feminists only focus on women while people like me focus on EVERYONE.

No, people knew about these problems already. I for one already did. It's pretty common knowledge that people can get raped and that anyone can be the victim of sexism.

No, TopHat, they're/we're not talking about rights. We are talking about social stigma and prejudices. And you can't deny that it's still around, on both sides. Men who fuck lots of women? Players and total studs. Women who fuck lots of men? Sluts and should be ashamed of themselves. Prejudicstic ideas that women are not as good as men at certain jobs. Even people who still think women should keep their damn mouths shut and work in the kitchen. And yes, also the prejudice and stigma for men, that they are more likely to punch or rape and such. Those are different from rights. So who cares if there are equal RIGHTS in America if the STIGMA still is around, and not just in America?



I still have no fucking clue who this is and quite frankly don't care.



But at the same time you say (or sound) like you're generalizing every feminist to be a "feminazi". It's great that you openly say that the feminism you've seen is that type, but you also talk as if all feminism is like that. It's kind of like you're taking the opposite point of their feminism, by generalizing it, too.

C-A

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Are you being wilfully dense or something? I haven't once said men are actively oppressing women. You clearly don't understand what the patriarchy is and you clearly don't actually want to learn anything. Open minded, you are not. The patriarchy is the fact that nearly all people in a position of power are men, and therefore naturally tip the scale in favour of men. Not every man is a patriarch, in fact few are.

Also lol at "there is some sexism". Yes, women being harassed in the street and people dismissing this as unimportant is only "some sexism". Jesus Christ dude. Rights have nothing to do with the inherent bias against women in society.

Nice job completely missing the point on the politicians issue. "just vote for more!" oh of course it was so simple, silly me, all our systemic bias fixed! Oh wait no that's impossible because men are still seen as better leaders for no reason, a bias that both men AND women have as a result of the way they've been brought up in a patriarchal society. There AREN'T any female politicians to elect because of this, and even if there were, they would have less chance of being voted. This isn't exactly rocket science man. Did you seriously think that the low number of female politicians was just because they aren't getting voted for?

Nice job dodging the point about senior management!

Erm yes, the birth control issue does. Women being seen as sluts for being promiscuous is explicitly tied to the controversy around birth control. Also I get it you hate religious people. Fundamentalists are a small demographic. They are not the problem. Edit: I should point out that yes, fundamentalism is a religious problem but they in no way detract from the impact of a patriarchal society on this, if anything they just add to it. Because guess what, fundamentalist religion is really patriarchal.

Actually #YesAllWomen has been helping. Did you see the amounts of tweets and articles about people reading through the hashtag and realising the problems women face. That's called "raising awareness". It's a form of activism. And it educated me so I guess you're wrong.
Actually it started because a bunch of stupid idiots started a #NotAllMen hashtag to show that they weren't rapists. #YesAllWomen was a response to that absolutely useless line of thinking.

Stop including strawman radfems in your evaluation of feminism. That's about as useful as me saying "Well the WestBoro Baptist church exists so every Christian is a terrible person" or "Malcolm X was violent so the Civil Rights leaders are terrorists!"

And we're back to this "secular humanist" thing. Okay, tell me of all the amazing things secular humanism has done and why no one has ever heard of it.

I'll say this again, but solve the problems of sexism, you need a single, precisely targeted movement. By dismantling the patriarchy, the problems men face will be solved too, feminists know this, bla bla bla I feel like I'm repeating myself and you're refusing to listen. And the focus is on women because they are the vastly disadvantaged ones. Like holy crap just look at E3, they've had ONE female senior games developer up there compared to like 20 men. But sexism is over I guess!

Just saw Cat posted. Listen to her if you're not gonna listen to me.

Edit: Just saw this

Well I'm a dude, for one thing.

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Last edited by Haawke on Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ahhaahahahahahahahaha, I doubt he'll listen to me. He never listened to me before, no way he'll do it now.

C-A

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THE SPERM HAVE VOICES NSFW

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Gaah I go away for a sleepover shift and I miss all the action.

Though yes Tophat you are generalising, it doesn't matter if all you've experienced are radical feminists (which I know can't be true as you have talked to several here including the Mild-Mannered General Luigi) you still know that they do not represent every feminist or even proper feminist values.

Raising awareness (even if it's via twitter) is an effective measure, considering that the core of the problem is in people's thinking and ignorance. Let's face it, sexism is something that's probably been engraved in some of us from generations of 'traditional gender roles' some people won't be aware they are doing anything wrong. Just making them aware that something is actually a problem can enlighten people and change how they think.

You always talk about glorious historic speakers, they change people's minds with words, it doesn't always need to boil down to 'torch and pitchfork' activism. It's the same concept, true stories and experiences to awaken the minds of people and open their eyes to the problems faced except instead of individual iconic leaders the new age of the internet allows millions of people to share their thoughts on the problem.

I understand you want humanity to progress as a race rather than divisions like this but the problems that we face are big and we aren't going to get anywhere without dividing them into small chunks like this.

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Oh so it's stigmas then? Fine, I'll bite. Sure, there's stigmas. But you know what? They affect both sides and eventually, they won't be around anymore. Women should be quiet and work in the kitchen? Sure, I've heard that before. But the majority of the time it's done in jest, by people who KNOW that it's sexist and don't believe it. The people that do actually mean it are in the minority.

To me, I view that feminism is only reinforcing these stigmas by placing women below men as victims. And when men try to defend themselves from generalizations, the feminists lose their shit.



He was a mentally ill misogynistic American that went on a killing rampage. I guess it's not big news outside of here.



Again, this is from the majority of feminism that I have personally seen. And frankly, I don't support this kind of ideology which is why I'm not one of them.



If so few men are patriarchs, then how can there be a patriarchy? And don't fucking call me close minded and not willing to learn anything. People like you use emotion to support their ideals and not evidence. You have no argument.



Yes, and men being sexually harassed in the workplace or falsely accused of rape, and it not being treated the way it should. Your point?



Which is what the feminism movement is only doing, reinforcing women as helpless victims with #YesAllWomen. Listen, the old white Christian males that are in office right now won't be around forever. They'll die, and our generation will take over. I think it's safe to assume that the majority of us support equality for other people. So things will change, regardless of votes.



See last point. The younger generation is taking over.



Yes, they are. America is run by Christian politicians who are trying to impose their BS morality on everyone, including women with birth control. I've never heard anything about women being viewed as sluts with this issue. AND AGAIN I DON'T HATE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE I HATE RELIGION. Why do I constantly have to repeat myself on this?



No, it's just because they have nothing else to report. They're covering another bullshit trend, nothing more. If you honestly didn't know about the problems that women face and you call yourself a feminist, there's something wrong.

Oh yeah, and I guess #KillAllMen is perfectly fine. How is saying that "not all men are rapists" a useless line of thinking, when that's exactly what the feminist movement is making us out to be? We can't defend ourselves from these things or show different arguments without you feminists losing your shit.



Can't comment on Malcolm X, and the WestBoro Baptist Church are a hate group. I don't think Christians are terrible people, but I think that their beliefs are irrational and dogmatic. I support their rights to practice whatever they believe in, but that doesn't mean that I agree with them at all. It's the same with feminism. I don't hate feminists, but I view their beliefs towards women and men to be irrational and close-minded. The movement is fueled on emotion, not logic.



Uh, how about the billions of dollars in aid that countries and organizations donate to underprivileged people every year? How about the homeless shelters that are set up? HOW ABOUT HOSPITALS FOR FUCKS SAKE. The list goes on and on.

Just because you haven't heard of humanism, doesn't mean others haven't. Nor does it lessen the effects it has on society every day. Without humanism, society simply wouldn't function. You do it every day when you help people.



Where the fuck are you getting these ludicrous ideas? I never said ANYTHING about sexism being over. Racism isn't over. Bigotry isn't over. We combat them every day. And again, the modern feminism movement hasn't done anything effective.

I don't know why you're bringing up that example. Women design video games and are heavily involved with the production. Companies won't turn you away just because of your gender. If you're someone who's good at programming, dedicated to games, etc, they will hire you. Regarding E3 and such, I found this excellent interview with Aisha Tyler and how things are getting better.
http://recode.net/2014/06/07/ubisofts-e ... -gamer-qa/



Then why is it that I've only ever seen them running the show? Why is it that I've never seen any of the so-called "proper" feminists doing anything? This is why feminism today is a joke and not an effective movement.



The new generation obviously doesn't think that way. If you see the numbers, you find that every year things get better and better for women. Again, Twitter doesn't raise awareness, it propels ignorance and hysteria.



Those historic speakers actually did things in the real world through real activism. Not writing something in 140 characters that does jackshit. Again, this is only a hysterical response to Elliot Rodger against men. I don't expect it to last for very long. Like all trends, they eventually die.



Feminism isn't helping though. I haven't seen it do anything to further help women in this day and age. Again, it's only reinforcing these sexist and victimized mentalities that they're supposedly against.

Here's one from urban dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Feminism
Another one from another free dictionary: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/feminism

Personaly I like the first one the best.



Here a group of feminism are promoting science, sports, construction and other masculine field of studies for young girls to incite them to take those path if they want to and that it doesn't make them less of a women. Some decade ago, a female minister made it possible to a women to pass her family name to her child (and not force them to put their husband name).

I recommend you to read The second Sex from Simone DeBeauvoir. Great feminist and as she tend to "victimize" women, she still tell them to fight and stop acting like morons, instead of saying that men are jerks.




Please read the first link I posted. I personally see feminism as a branch of humanism by the way.

EDIT: Found an interesting article (in french sorry) about a feminism now and some campaign done to help (There's a link in english at the end and note the quote of the guy who says he's a feminist beause he want the time to be a daddy.)

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Vocal minorities. Proper feminists don't necessarily need to stir up trouble and anti-male agenda as you describe to achieve their goals because it's not the goal of feminism. Also feminism today is not a joke, not to everyone, insulting people's strong beliefs and organisations will offend a lot of people.

Also if feminism is such a joke and is ineffective...



There's more to this equation than 'oh it's the new generation'. It's not a simple case of genetics improving, there are PEOPLE working to make that change. Changing opinions and awareness FOR the new generation via twitter and feminism and other means. You can't just handwave "Oh things are getting better" without considering WHY it's getting better.

Things are getting better because people are TRYING to improve things. Nothing changes unless someone does something to encourage change, that's logical right?



Feminism has been around LONG before Elliot Rodger, so whether or not the hashtag lives long doesn't matter the sentiment will remain. There have been other hashtags and other incidents that have sparked the flames. It's always there just in the background, incidents like Elliot Rodger just serve to bring them into the limelight once in a while and each new incident will garner a few more people dedicated to improving the situation.

You yourself I know write articles on the internet. Why else? To affect and influence people's opinions? To inform? To mislead? All of these things can be done from the internet. Just because people aren't out there throwing bricks through windows in the name of a cause doesn't mean it can't influence someone. You yourself cite youtube vids as evidence of people trying to convince and inform people otherwise. There might be some useless 'tweets' there but it doesn't mean there's nothing of worth there just because it's a twitter event. If something on the internet becomes a sizable enough force it'll garner media attention and it'll reach a lot more people than just standing on a box preaching about a cause.



Do you have proof that feminism isn't helping? You say you haven't seen it do anything to further help women and yet you recognise that things are improving in terms of pay grade for women? Don't you consider any reasons behind that? Don't you think a group of people campaigning EXACTLY for that in addition to other improvements would have any effect on that?

You can't cite "I see things are getting better" and then say "But feminists do nothing to help." It's illogical to say that there's no chance that feminists had nothing to do with the improving situation especially in the face of historical feminist movements like the Suffragettes and Suffragists.

Also thanks for the definite Shao-Mae, the key words you'll notice are "Equality" there, from a non-feminist biased source. Nothing about putting men on the 'bottom rung'.

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That's all fine and good, Shao-Mae. That's a good definition of what feminism SHOULD be and it falls in-line being closer to humanism. REAL feminism is a small fraction of humanism. But since it's only a small fraction, I consider myself a full on humanist, and the modern feminism thought of today is not something that I support.

Unfortunately, none of the feminists that I've talked to think this way. If they did, I wouldn't be here complaining. The modern feminist movement that I've observed isn't doing things the way they should.



Yes, people are trying to improve things. But tons of guys like me support them, and we're not feminists. There are lots of women out there who support these things, and they don't consider themselves feminists either. Each generation becomes more liberal than the last because of people in general. I don't believe it's specifically because of feminism itself.



Yes, but the people reacting to Rodger are doing it hysterically. You can't tell me that #KillAllMen or men having to defend themselves against these awful stigmas of being rapists is a sign of a positive movement.



I don't write for ANYONE, I'll say that right now. I write for MYSELF and no one else. I write so I can see the satisfaction of having my work published and perhaps enjoyed by other people. But I don't do it for them, I do it for myself.

I cite the vids because they go over the points I'm trying to make and I don't feel like repeating them. The ones I link are people refutting such BS as #YesAllWomen. Like these vids for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOfuVQC29s8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UTpM03ugPA

Again, the whole #YesAllWomen is just pure hysteria. It doesn't "empower" women, it just makes them out to be helpless victims.



That doesn't have to be feminism though. Like I've already said, lots of people who aren't feminists support these things. Things improve because the new generations become more liberal than the last. They look upon the problems of the previous people and improve them. It's simply societal evolution.

And those people who campaigned for suffrage are from the times when feminism ACTUALLY WORKED and when it wasn't the BS it is today. I've mentioned previously that the MODERN feminism movement is bad. Not the ideals of REAL feminism itself.

Last edited by TopHatProfessor1014 on Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh my god this is incredible. "Eventually they won't be around anymore". Yeah things are just getting better on their own, it's not like there's a political movement to addressing social stigma towards women in today's society. What's that? Feminism? Never heard of it.

Let me just ask you one thing. As a man, do you feel disadvantaged?

Also I know tons of people my age who still buy into gender roles. Just because you're not outright saying "FUCK WOMEN" doesn't mean you're not a misogynist.


Dude you refused to read an objective definition of patriarchy because of ~*~feminist bias~*~ that's pretty close minded.

Because the patriarchs are the men in power, running the big lobbying groups and sitting in government? I didn't think it was that hard to understand. It's a systemic type of oppression, not one evil dude sitting there going "mwhahaha I hate women" but an inherent bias against them.

Wait wait, I can do this too. People like you use generalisations to support their ideals and not evidence. You have no argument.


Dude, I knew about the problems, that doesn't mean I can't learn even more from initiatives like this. You don't ever know everything, especially when it's something that as a man, I will never experience. So I learn from others.

An article about this #killallmen thing http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014/03/ ... en/359493/
It's a joke, dude. Not a particularly funny one, but a joke nonetheless.
And this is a good (featuring a hilarious comic strip) article on "not all men" as a derailing tactic http://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-bri ... -argument/



This is incredibly naive optimism. There is literally nothing to suggest that the status quo will shift, especially as politics is still a complete sausage fest.


Because you flipped out on a dude in the "who are you?" topic, probably.

Also you don't remember the whole Mike Huckabee scandal, the (feminist) girl who went on TV to present the case for expanding access to birth control and her being called a slut?


So you're not a feminist for believing in gender equality but I'm a humanist for helping someone? Right... Isn't that just called being kind?


Did you not happen to see that awful game design challenge IGN did? It had like 1 girl to 7 dudes and some of the guys thought it'd be hilarious to make a stereotypical female boss. Just the most awful thing I'd ever seen. The gaming industry is REVOLTING towards women. Look at what happened to Zoe Quinn.
Also a good article http://kotaku.com/what-its-like-to-be-a ... 1292389459

Yeah things are getting better and guess what's helping: that's right, feminism! A real turn up for the books.

Edit: dude stop bringing up #killallmen it's like the most obvious joke hashtag

And stop moving the goalposts. "Here's some stuff feminists have done recently" "No see this isn't feminism because *reasons*"

Oh Jesus you just posted an Amazing Atheist video in a discussion on feminism. And that other video is terrible, trying to state that he didn't kill because of misogyny. His entire manifesto was full, absolutely full, of hatred towards women, and he tried to shoot up a sorority as his first plan. But he sure didn't kill because he hates women!

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You know what guys? I give up on this. Continue believing in whatever the hell it is that you believe in. I have responses to every single point made here, but it's just going in circles

As a man, I feel like no one cares about what I'm going through when it comes to how I've been treated by women. As a man, I feel neglected that people brush off the emotional abuse I've experienced from my girlfriend. As a man, I feel disgusted when it's alright for people to use #killallmen, regardless if it's a joke or not. As a man, I feel disgusted when it's fine to use #YesAllWomen, yet men cannot use #NotAllMen without getting shit from these feminists. As a man, I feel hurt when I'm called misogynistic and a hater of women just because I'm not a feminist. It just goes on and on.

So continue the discussion if you want. I don't care about this anymore. I have enough shit to deal with right now, and I don't need this bringing me down. My life hasn't gotten any better, and it's only an endless spiral of depression and misery for me. I don't need something else bothering me.

Can you define what you mean by "modern feminism"? Like a time period or a book/manifest or a specific (please be very specific as I don't live in the USA) because I fail to see why "modern feminism" is wrong. For me modern feminism is to adapt certain aspect to be applied to women reality. Yes as it sucks, women are physicaly weaker than men, so why there is no tools in construction or in factory that are adapted to women to properly do their jobs without destrying certain part of their body as time flies. I know here, I think man now have parternity vacation (it's not the real term but I don't know the english one) because of feminism (man should have the right to have more time with their newborn). Also the only thing wrong I see with modern feminism is to not educate people enough about feminism, too much people take those rights granted.

TopHat Do you know how those kind of movement works? They arent's one big group as the traditionnal meaning. They are like Greenpeace. You can join the group, but the group itself is composed of countless independant micro group with various intentions, so one may only want to raise awareness and do petitions and others want to hijack things. I'm afraid that you only see the latter, but I want you to know that the "real" feminist are still out there. Proof you have some on this topic.

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No one called you a misogynist or hater of women though. You seem quite content to call feminists man haters on the other hand.

Just at least read the articles and try to actually educate yourself about feminism instead of sounding like an Amazing Atheist video. For every radfem there's like a million moderates and you shouldn't ignore that.

@Shao-Mae: I assume he means third wave feminism, so like 1990s onwards.

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Not you, other people have called me that. And I'm referring to the feminists that I've personally come into contact with, for the thousandth time.

But I don't care anymore about this discussion like I said. Say whatever you want about it. It's not my concern anymore.

"In General"
Care to...explain how? I already said the idea that just genetics and breeding alone will improve things is nonsensical.

By supporting them but not committing to them to the point you can 'label' yourself a feminist, you ARE the armchair activist. You care but not enough to consider yourself part of it. You know what feminism is, you know that the people you've seen are wrong about feminism, vocal minorities practically EXIST to make a reasonable majority look bad you've gotta know that. Yes some 'reasonable' minded people are sympathetic to a feminist cause but here you are ridiculing them and calling their cause a joke and falling for common misconceptions about what feminism is.

You see definitions and persist in saying "Well I've seen these people calling themselves feminists," even though you can recognise they are not the whole picture or representative of most feminists.



Sure some people will be doing it hysterically, they are afraid, people died and for some they'll have been shown some real dark evils out there in the world that want to hurt them. It'll shatter beliefs, they'll turn to others for help. SOME people. SOME. Not all.

#Yesallwomen will have all kinds of people on it as well, some may be trying to drum up paranoia I'm not going to deny that, some will even run away with the wrong idea and create #killallmen. People are scared and hysterical, they are being confronted with a world that is unjust and random and chaotic. Don't hate them for their fear. It's a tough thing to come to terms with.

The important thing to remember is that while there is undoubtably some hysteria and extremists willing to capitalise on it (as there is in most things) there is real value and actual relevant experiences to be had as well. So we cannot bash #yesallwomen as a whole because it is not all 'hysteria' and to do so dismisses actual important and educational information and horrible experiences that people have had and you know for sure how horrible it can feel to have someone 'dismiss' your experiences.



Ok well lets sum up your arguments

As Time ^ = Improvement because "In General" "Societal Evolution"
New Generation = Innately more liberal than old generation.

Why?
That's the big question, you are trying to skip to the answer you want without considering the mechanisms for change.

Time ^ = Improvement because the New Generation is more Liberal than the old generation.
How?
The New Generation LEARNS from specific movements who INCREASE AWARENESS about specific issues.

You reworded your argument to say the same thing and ignore the mechanics of change. People learn a LOT from their parents, your argument that "People generally get better" is flawed due to the amount of input and examples set by the previous generation. We learn mistakes and old habits from the previous generation which is how these attitudes persisted so long. There has to be a counterforce to encourage change.



And I've explained that your outlook on Modern feminism is based off a few vocal minorities. Feminism has made real marketed improvements for women over time and is still working towards it. Sure there aren't many massive milestones like women gaining the vote that we can point to anymore to say "Yeah feminism is making an obvious difference" but that doesn't mean it isn't achieving something. You've said yourself that you recognise things are good now and feminism has been working towards ensuring that by increasing awareness so that people in power DO something because if they don't they become incredibly unpopular and may suddenly find themselves not in power anymore. That is how increasing awareness effects change.

Look at it this way...if everyone saw things your way, if you made them aware, would those "Christian Politicans" still remain in power? No they'd see the flaws you do and they'd be pressured into enacting actual change or be removed from power.

That's the big endgame of increasing awareness, in the small time it makes people treat each other a bit better and with a bit more respect and understanding for what people of a certain gender/race/ideology go through and that's an extremely beneficial outcome of just "140 characters" typed up online.


(Aww hell four new posts while I typed this...should I address them?....Nah Sorry XP)

(Damn one more...should deal with that).

Tophat like we've said, those people who brand misogyny left right and centre aren't representative of feminism as a whole and you have no right to treat feminism like that as a result of it. You've seen the actual definition, you've seen what feminism has accomplished you can recognise radical feminists don't have a leg to stand on when they fly off the chain like that.

C'mon man I wanna work with you but you gotta try to understand.

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Yes, because keeping quiet about a problem is totally a way to solve said problem.



You must've heard of vocal minority, it's been mentioned on this and other threads. I think even you used it at some point? It's like this saying of the smallest dogs having the biggest bark. They are more vocal BECAUSE they are in the minority. And the louder the are, the bigger they seem.



Well can you mention ANY time when a random killing HASN'T gotten people to act hysterically? Isn't that the basis of the idea of "videogames cause school killings"? People see something terribl happening and are all "OMG NO! THIS NEVER WOULD'VE HAPPENED HAD THIS OR THAT BEEN/NOT BEEN DONE" and all. They react hysterically. It's normal for them to do that. (Mostly cause they don't want to see the actual problem)



I have nothing against a woman sleeping around a lot if she enjoys sex and all that, you know. But yeah, you keep yourself (and your partner) protected. If you can't gain easy access to it... buy a vibrator. Or masturbate with your hand. Problem solved.



Nobody on this forum is brushing off your emotional abuse. But then, other people outside still think that men don't get hurt that much. Again this is a prejudice and stigma. YES it's a problem. But blaming Feminists for pointing out the actual, historical opression or abuse (and still to this day at times) of women just cause the vocal minority is saying "MEN HAVE NO FEELINGS OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T RAPE US" is pretty dumb. You're sounding like a vocal minority trying to out-shout another vocal minority. Which won't work, it'll end in a stale-wart. (if that's the word I'm trying to find...)

C-A

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