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Re: The Legend of Zelda seriesTopic%20Title
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As for Hyrule Historia, I was really hyped for it a few months ago, but then I forgot about it until recently. If I get interested again, I'll probably get it sometime soon.


Whenever I heard the words Hyrule Historia, I always thought they meant a huge fan-made internet page that simply collected all possible information and tried to make it all correspond and connect together. So when I heard Hyrule Historia as a book was coming out, I still thought it was a fanbook....
I don't like Hyrule Historia, even if they say it's "official".
To me, it's just a poor attempt of the game developers to please the fanbase by saying "Yes, everything is connected and we totally are gonna make sense out of all 3 split timlines, which are totally connected and not something you shouldn't care about cause this is about having fun playing this goddamn game series!"

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Everyone talks about Ocarina of Time as if it is the perfect model for a Zelda game, but to be honest I've always found Ocarina of Time fairly bland. It's fun, and it's more enjoyable than some of the older games, but it's really lacking in the story department. You go from one dungeon to the next and that repeats until the end of the game.


Exactly!
Everybody's always saying that OoT is the perfect Zelda game and is the most awesome thing since the invention of breathing and what not. It... it was a great step in graphics, being the first 3D Zelda game, but other than that it was nothing special. As you say, it's one dungeon after another until the final battle.
I started playing it again a few months ago and I admit I never really went through the adult dungeons, I kept cheating my way through cause it took too long - so I never had the aggrivation of the Water Temple to deal with, but I am approaching it right now. But the Forest (despite being absolutely symmetrical) and Fire dungeon really annoyed me - especially the Forest dungeon because... well, how the fuck was I supposed to know there's a fucking small key in the entrance area that is devoid of anything except some stupid trees?

But I never thought Zelda games were very much about the story.
It's basically Hero goes off to save the World from Evil and there's a Princess as well. Basically like Mario, but with swords. Granted, they tried to be more story oriented with Skyward Sword, but.... well, the story and plot kind of disappears once you get past the 40 minutes of introduction and descend onto the Surface.
There's still this... talk about... something...
But then you spend several hours fighting monsters, solving puzzles, dungeon crawling, get some exposition and repeat the first three things until you get the full exposition and some story again.... and back to dungeon crawling and tasks and all that.

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I would hope that the new game, at least in the gameplay sense goes more towards Skyward Sword rather than back towards Ocarina of Time.


I hope so, too. Once I fell in love with Skyward Sword where I actually have to think how to attack, I kind of realized how boring the other games were where I just pressed a button over and over until something croaked.

But a Multiplayer Zelda?
Mmmh.... only way I could think this would work is if it were like Four Sword Adventures, where you control a Link each.... or where your companion is a fighting person, not just an informative one. But otherwise, you'd suddenly have this... other... person next to you?
Mmmh, sounds weird...

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CatMuto wrote:
Whenever I heard the words Hyrule Historia, I always thought they meant a huge fan-made internet page that simply collected all possible information and tried to make it all correspond and connect together. So when I heard Hyrule Historia as a book was coming out, I still thought it was a fanbook....
I don't like Hyrule Historia, even if they say it's "official".
To me, it's just a poor attempt of the game developers to please the fanbase by saying "Yes, everything is connected and we totally are gonna make sense out of all 3 split timlines, which are totally connected and not something you shouldn't care about cause this is about having fun playing this goddamn game series!"


I'm not too concerned with the official timeline itself, but rather the smaller connections that are apparently confirmed. Things like OoT Link being the Hero's Shade in TP. Or the Ocarina of Time being made of the same material as the timeshift stones from SS. Those little things were what made the timeline debates interesting to me. Frankly, I would have thought that it would have been better to find a place for the "third timeline" somewhere on the child timeline. I mean, Four Swords Adventures has so many hints towards A Link to the Past that it seems like it could have gone after that. The third timeline works but it's just so out of nowhere that it seems a little redundant. I don't take the timeline too seriously but it was great fun to speculate about it and look for really vague clues Da Vinci Code-style, even if they really didn't mean anythin. After you do that for a while you just naturally begin to care about the connections a bit.

CatMuto wrote:
But I never thought Zelda games were very much about the story.
It's basically Hero goes off to save the World from Evil and there's a Princess as well. Basically like Mario, but with swords. Granted, they tried to be more story oriented with Skyward Sword, but.... well, the story and plot kind of disappears once you get past the 40 minutes of introduction and descend onto the Surface.
There's still this... talk about... something...
But then you spend several hours fighting monsters, solving puzzles, dungeon crawling, get some exposition and repeat the first three things until you get the full exposition and some story again.... and back to dungeon crawling and tasks and all that.


I would agree that it's much less story-focused than games like Ace Attorney or Final Fantasy, but I would also say that in my experience as I've gotten older and are less satisfied with just playing a game for the game's sake alone, I'm having a harder time playing the older Zeldas, including Ocarina of Time. At least Wind Waker and Twilight Princess supplemented their moderately-thin stories with character-revolving side-quests. Ocarina of Time and the other older games have sidequests but they are little more than "do this thing for me and come talk to me after you do it for a reward." What I really liked about Skyward Sword is they kept enough plot going so that I never really felt like I was wasting my time being a completest looking for items and such. (A problem I have with most Zelda games, usually around 75% through.) So I think they could do even more with the story and still be able to have all that non-linear exploration, without running into the problem of having TOO MUCH story. (Playing Final Fantasy XIII right now, and it seems like they could have kept the integrity of the story while cutting some of the weird cutscenes that don't really add to it in any way. In fact the characters will break into dramatic monologues half-way through an area, and then after 10 minutes the game will pick up right where you left off. They could've saved it for the end of the "level" or something).


CatMuto wrote:
But a Multiplayer Zelda?
Mmmh.... only way I could think this would work is if it were like Four Sword Adventures, where you control a Link each.... or where your companion is a fighting person, not just an informative one. But otherwise, you'd suddenly have this... other... person next to you?
Mmmh, sounds weird...

C-A


It sound weird, but i think if they did what you said and made it a fighting person it could be really cool. Maybe the person playing Link could be watching the TV and using the awesome Wii U Pro controller or the Wii remote/nunchuck while the new ally character could use the Wii U Gamepad and watch the built-in screen there. It would mean changing the classic Zelda story so that it is no longer just Link on his quest, but I'm ok with that if it works, and could really make the puzzles new and exciting. Hell, they could even finally make Zelda an equal ally in the game and have her fight alongside you. The only problem I see is how a single-player would play. Having an AI control a character could be troublesome and having Link go it alone brings up canon and puzzle design questions.
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I'm not too concerned with the official timeline itself, but rather the smaller connections that are apparently confirmed.


I don't really care about the timelines at all.
I enjoy seeing little references or hints to other games in the one I'm playing - like the Tingle Doll in Zelda's room, the Ghost Hand in the toilet wanting paper, stuff like that - but otherwise, I don't really care. Does it make any actual, gameplay or storyline influencing difference if the Link I'm controlling belongs to the child timeline, adult timeline or fallen hero timeline?
Or whichever timelines there are now...
The Hero's Shadow in TP was nice, but that's all. Never heard that the Ocarina was made out of the same material as the time shift stone, but okay. Although this makes me wonder how the Master Sword was the key to time travelling in OoT - or was the pedestal for the Master Sword also made out of that material?

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(Playing Final Fantasy XIII right now, and it seems like they could have kept the integrity of the story while cutting some of the weird cutscenes that don't really add to it in any way. In fact the characters will break into dramatic monologues half-way through an area, and then after 10 minutes the game will pick up right where you left off. They could've saved it for the end of the "level" or something).


Yes, XIII had the trouble of having you walk, unlock a cutscene, walk some more and you get another cutscenes... but after a while I just tried to ignore that and kept going. It got better around chapter 9 or 10, but I would advise to not rush through the rest of the game. I did it and I felt weird afterwards, so I instantly had to replay it.

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Hell, they could even finally make Zelda an equal ally in the game and have her fight alongside you. The only problem I see is how a single-player would play. Having an AI control a character could be troublesome and having Link go it alone brings up canon and puzzle design questions.


A very helpful and useful Zelda would be a good idea.
But whether she gets controlled by an AI... I dunno. Maybe they'd make it for single-mode similar to Spirit Tracks - having to control Zelda at times or telling her where to go. Like in FF VI in the Phoenix Cave or Kefka's Tower, pressing a button to switch between parties so that one could proceed further on.

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Although this makes me wonder how the Master Sword was the key to time travelling in OoT - or was the pedestal for the Master Sword also made out of that material?


I kinda assumed the sword and pedestal was like a temporal anchor by placing the sword in it you were 'held' in that place in time while it rocketed around you.

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Yes, XIII had the trouble of having you walk, unlock a cutscene, walk some more and you get another cutscenes... but after a while I just tried to ignore that and kept going. It got better around chapter 9 or 10, but I would advise to not rush through the rest of the game. I did it and I felt weird afterwards, so I instantly had to replay it.


Well lets face it the walking and combat system are hardly interesting enough to go for long periods without breaking it up. I didn't have a trouble with how XIII used it's cutscenes really, more issues with the overarching plot and combat system. I would counter-advise you rush through the game if you REALLY REALLY want to play it for like completion-sake or to support Square-Enix (as I did), it's pretty forgettable.

Quote:
A very helpful and useful Zelda would be a good idea.
But whether she gets controlled by an AI... I dunno. Maybe they'd make it for single-mode similar to Spirit Tracks - having to control Zelda at times or telling her where to go. Like in FF VI in the Phoenix Cave or Kefka's Tower, pressing a button to switch between parties so that one could proceed further on.


Well there is one option, but it would sort of subvert the suggestion dungeons not be linear anymore. I was playing Prince of Persia recently (the odd red-and-blue 2008 one) and it has your companion gain new magical powers which allow you to progress around the dungeons and reach new areas. This would be thematically appropriate for Zelda given her magical prowess and make her a useful character. Especially when in a scene later on Zelda gets captured and you realise you can't accomplish much without her.
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Re: The Legend of Zelda seriesTopic%20Title
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Especially when in a scene later on Zelda gets captured and you realise you can't accomplish much without her.


Well it would certainly be quite a difference to the previous, mostly-useless Zeldas. If they got locked into a crystal, we were doing just fine or even better than beforehand. Or it barely made a difference at all.
Of course, if she has an obligatory-story kidnapping, that would force you to do certain dungeons at certain times - unless you are able to gain access to the dungeons that require her magical abilities from the start and you do those first, getting them out of the way. So you could do dungeons where she isn't really necessary later on...

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The timeline really makes no difference when you're playing, except for when you can see connections while you're playing and you can see where the references come in. (I'm a big fan of shows like Lost where you have to see these connections so I have a tendency to do it with other stuff too.) For instance, people would often bring up how similar Tower of the Gods in WW was to The Temple of Time in TP (I think that might have been confirmed in the game) so after I made the connection in my head when I play through them in the games it's kind of cool, but that's pretty much it.

As for the Master Sword, I know that in the first instance (when you as a child first grab the sword) you don't actually travel forward in time but are actually basically in a coma for 7 years. After that it can be explained, but not without fan speculation. I mean, since The Master Sword still has Fi somewhere in it, it could be said that when adult link first places the sword down somehow she knows to warp back or something. But that's just improvisational fan-fiction right there. (add to the fact that Fi never showed any time travel abilities ever). The only thing that has been cofirmed by Nintendo (unless something in the HH says otherwise) is that when Adult Link first puts the sword BACK, that is when the second timeline is created. So you're not just traveling back in time, but are in an alternate universe as well. (The spirit temple shouldn't work, then, but it's a game). So nobody knows how that happened.

As for FFXIII, I actually really like the Battle System and the plot. In fact, it's my favorite FF right now, although I've only played III, IV, X, and XII. (and I've never beaten one. I always end up getting to a battle too hard and losing interest lol). I just think they could have maybe changed the level design a bit and then put those dramatic cutscenes somewhere more fitting plot-wise. There were tons that were in a great spot, but there were also tons that were just in the middle of nowhere. The linearness didn't bother me as much as how similar a lot of it was. I'm on Gran Pulse now and it's really opened up. I'm trying to do all the missions so I don't think I'll be going anywhere right away. But I love the characters and story, especially Lightning who is the first FF female lead I've seen that is neither really skimpily-dressed or really mellow and shy. (of course, from the look of the XIII-2 box art the former is no longer valid. Kinda like Yuna in X-2. My sister and I always joke that it's like the characters' skirts get shorter with each sequel). I know everyone complains about her being a jerk to everyone but this seemed to stop after Hope's dad's house so I'm not noticing it as a problem. The only problem I have with the plot is the fairly-wooden dialogue, but that's a problem with every FF game. Maybe it's from translating the lines or something?

Back on the actual subject, though, I think they shouldn't even have the obligatory Zelda-Kidnapped scene. Zelda has come a long way from where she was in the original but she's still a pretty stereotypical portrayal. Sheik and Tetra are tough, fighting machines, but when they turn into Zelda they're whole personality and way of fighting changes. I'd like to see a Zelda than can be the princess figure and still fight like she can in her alter-egos, and maybe is a bigger story character and less of the damsel in distress.

To be honest, I'm hoping this WW rerelease might indicate that the new Wii U Zelda is an actual sequel to WW. (And not a weird sidestory like PH. The characters were acted differently and it just didn't feel like the sequel WW deserved). A game where they discover the new world from ST, with one player playing as link and another as Tetra would be awesome. I doubt they will do this, though.
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The Tower of the Gods is the Temple of Time?
...never heard that one and it doesn't make sense to me. Although I do like that they used the identical entry hallway and music for the Temple of Time in TP, but then you got to the actual temple. But I've heard people constantly saying "How come the Master Sword in SS is put into a Forest, where it stays for Link to the Past, then moves to the Temple of Time in OoT and then back into a Forest in TP.
Well I explain it this way...
In SS, the Master Sword is put into the Faron Area which later gets less forest-y as the Hyrule Kingdom is being built and becomes the stoney Temple of Time in OoT. Ganny flattens Hyrule to nothingness, which lets nature re-take its territory and becomes the Sacred Grove where the Master Sword remains. And Hyrule is so far away from the Sacred Grove probably because people migrated to that area later, leaving the ruins of old Hyrule there.

Well.... either way, the time travel in OoT never made sense to me.
If I have the ability to go back in time to the moment before I remove the Master Sword, which means that Ganny has yet to touch the Triforce and have it split and him obtain so much power, why don't I just let Link go away from the Temple of Time, keep the Spiritual Stones away and break the Ocarina of Time?
After all, that way, Ganny can't do anything and if the whole point of protecting the Triforce was the fact that I needed the stones, ocarina and the temple, why don't I just keep those things far away from each other? Problem solved!

Lightning is basically Cloud (VII) and Squall (VIII) mashed together with pink hair and boobs. I like her, she's pretty cool and sexy. And her voice actress (Sakamoto Maaya) is one of my favorites! As for her appearance in XIII-2.... well, she isn't a very active person in the game, although she can be recruited as a party member via DLC. And even if she has a Bikini Chainmail, at least hers is really, really useful. Also good-looking!
The XIII/XIII-2 battle system is quite fun!
It had its flaws... several of which got improved upon in XIII-2 (no Game Over if your Leader dies) and I really like the fact that the battles actually require more strategy now. Since the Crystarium is unlocked in Stages, you're basically prevented from grinding and being overleveled.
By the way, you will be unable to do all Missions before finishing Chapter 11.
One of them doesn't get unlocked until you've beaten Chapter 11's Boss and such. The main ones you want to do before going on to Chapter 12 is Mission 1 - 14 (so you unlock the ability to ride Chocobos on the Archylte Steppe) and Mission 55 - the Stone is in a schoolhouse in the area you'll be before Chapter 12 and that fight is very tough at that point in the game... but the reward is really, really worth it! And with the right strategy, it's also doable.
Yeah the dialogue is kinda... but that's in every FF, as you say. The characters were mostly annoying, but got better around chapter 9/10...

Mmh, a direct sequel to WW?
Well there is PH, but then I'm never sure how there can be a sequel to WW. Link and Tetra are supposed to find the "new Hyrule" which..... could be anywhere. Really, they could stop at any island and say, "This place is nice, let's make this the new Hyrule!" and we'd already be done.

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CatMuto wrote:
The Tower of the Gods is the Temple of Time?
...never heard that one and it doesn't make sense to me. Although I do like that they used the identical entry hallway and music for the Temple of Time in TP, but then you got to the actual temple. But I've heard people constantly saying "How come the Master Sword in SS is put into a Forest, where it stays for Link to the Past, then moves to the Temple of Time in OoT and then back into a Forest in TP.
Well I explain it this way...
In SS, the Master Sword is put into the Faron Area which later gets less forest-y as the Hyrule Kingdom is being built and becomes the stoney Temple of Time in OoT. Ganny flattens Hyrule to nothingness, which lets nature re-take its territory and becomes the Sacred Grove where the Master Sword remains. And Hyrule is so far away from the Sacred Grove probably because people migrated to that area later, leaving the ruins of old Hyrule there.


That was actually very close to my interpretation of events in the games. I don't remember if HH "overrules" this but somehow my thinking changed on it.

But I was actually talking about the dungeon Temple of Time from TP. the one with all the glowing circuits and the long, tower-like halls. And the ability to control ancient robot-like statues. There were more smaller things I can't remember off the top of my head but I think it might have been confirmed. I'm not sure. Still, all this timeline stuff is really grasping for things, and whether they later said it was the Temple of Time, at the time of development the team was surely just interested in recycling some cool stuff from Tower of the Gods.

CatMuto wrote:
Well.... either way, the time travel in OoT never made sense to me.
If I have the ability to go back in time to the moment before I remove the Master Sword, which means that Ganny has yet to touch the Triforce and have it split and him obtain so much power, why don't I just let Link go away from the Temple of Time, keep the Spiritual Stones away and break the Ocarina of Time?
After all, that way, Ganny can't do anything and if the whole point of protecting the Triforce was the fact that I needed the stones, ocarina and the temple, why don't I just keep those things far away from each other? Problem solved!


That's really one of my problems with OoT; as I've said before, story is the main appeal for me of any game, and OoT has many plot holes, this being the largest. He could have done that, he could have done what he does post-OoT and told the king about Ganon so they arrest him (although I guess that didn't work out that well), or any number of other ways to save the world. Now, that world might not be "his universe", but he would have no way of knowing that, so it really doesn't make sense for him to keep doing things to stop ganon later rather than just preventing ganon from ever getting to the Triforce in the first place.


CatMuto wrote:
Lightning is basically Cloud (VII) and Squall (VIII) mashed together with pink hair and boobs. I like her, she's pretty cool and sexy. And her voice actress (Sakamoto Maaya) is one of my favorites! As for her appearance in XIII-2.... well, she isn't a very active person in the game, although she can be recruited as a party member via DLC. And even if she has a Bikini Chainmail, at least hers is really, really useful. Also good-looking!
The XIII/XIII-2 battle system is quite fun!
It had its flaws... several of which got improved upon in XIII-2 (no Game Over if your Leader dies) and I really like the fact that the battles actually require more strategy now. Since the Crystarium is unlocked in Stages, you're basically prevented from grinding and being overleveled.
By the way, you will be unable to do all Missions before finishing Chapter 11.
One of them doesn't get unlocked until you've beaten Chapter 11's Boss and such. The main ones you want to do before going on to Chapter 12 is Mission 1 - 14 (so you unlock the ability to ride Chocobos on the Archylte Steppe) and Mission 55 - the Stone is in a schoolhouse in the area you'll be before Chapter 12 and that fight is very tough at that point in the game... but the reward is really, really worth it! And with the right strategy, it's also doable.
Yeah the dialogue is kinda... but that's in every FF, as you say. The characters were mostly annoying, but got better around chapter 9/10...


The only problem I had with the battle system was the party leader dying thing you mentioned so if that's fixed that's great. I especially like that Magic attacks aren't confined to magic point, something that often bothers me about other games. The stagger system is great at showing enemies with crazy HP and then at the same time letting you actually handle it. Kinda scares you at first and then reassures you.

CatMuto wrote:
Mmh, a direct sequel to WW?
Well there is PH, but then I'm never sure how there can be a sequel to WW. Link and Tetra are supposed to find the "new Hyrule" which..... could be anywhere. Really, they could stop at any island and say, "This place is nice, let's make this the new Hyrule!" and we'd already be done.

C-A


I didn't like Phantom Hourglass. To me the characters felt totally different and it was much more of a sidestory than I wanted. In fact, I remember the producer of Wind Waker discussing the fact that the person in charge of PH didn't like the characters that much which is why characters like Tetra were in the game so little.

I could see a game like that, just put a mystery-new-land-overworld dungeon exploring advenure between finding the island and being done. Maybe something to do with the bad guy from ST (don't remember what his name is). a huge new world like that would be perfect for the non-linear exploration they're trying to do now.

Twilight Princess was actually originally going to be a sequel to WW, but after WW's US release the team became aware of Western Audience's desire for "realistic" graphics and went with Twilight Princess instead.

I mean, the Twilight Princess Wii U HD release video got such amazing reviews when it was shown a while back, it makes me wonder why they chose to do WW HD rather than Twilight Princess HD. I guess because TP is on the wii as well which means with WW HD every home console zelda game can be played on the Wii U. The fan/conspiracy theorist in me want to think it's because that Wind Waker project will be Zelda Wii U, but I doubt that.
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I'm probably late to this convo, but I do feel that to some extent, Ocarina of Time was worthy of the praise it got back in it's hey day. It's definitely not my favorite game, but even I will admit that it was very revolutionary for its time, and it was a feature that's taken for granted nowadays. Z-Targeting. To me, the targeting system is what helped define the way 3-D Zeldas would be handled and revolutionized how the game play would be handled, not just with Zelda but other 3-d action/adventure games. To me, Z-Targeting is what made OoT stand out in the day, it was a brilliant move for Nintendo in the series.

I still like OoT, but it's really not my favorite. It's fun to get it going every now and then, but there's other Zeldas I'll prioritize first. Heck, to be honest, it's really just a 3-d version of Link to the Past in essence. The approach to everything is pretty much the same, heck, you're technically traveling between two worlds. Game play wise, this game was absolutely revolutionary. Story wise... it's adorable, but not something to scream about. Majora's Mask, to me, offered the best of both worlds, and even expanded on the game play to make it even better. I'm still waiting to see a Zelda with as much depth as Majora's Mask, and I'm not just talking about story, but how they handled NPCs too. It's the only Zelda game I've played where I actually cared about them.
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CatMuto wrote:
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Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
I'm probably late to this convo, but I do feel that to some extent, Ocarina of Time was worthy of the praise it got back in it's hey day. It's definitely not my favorite game, but even I will admit that it was very revolutionary for its time, and it was a feature that's taken for granted nowadays. Z-Targeting. To me, the targeting system is what helped define the way 3-D Zeldas would be handled and revolutionized how the game play would be handled, not just with Zelda but other 3-d action/adventure games. To me, Z-Targeting is what made OoT stand out in the day, it was a brilliant move for Nintendo in the series.


I agree mostly with this. People who criticize OoT tend to forget how good this game was for it's time. This was still the pioneering age of 3D games and laid out some fundamentals for the games today. OoT played a big part in this.

When you currently play OoT on the 3DS you're playing a good game, no doubt about that. But try to go back to the days were either the story was the selling point (FF like) or the gameplay (super mario like). OoT tried both aspects and even though the story part was OK, the gameplay aspect was where the game really shined.

I remember the days of calmly wandering through the lost woods among kokiri brethren, how sweet malon was at the lon lon ranch and just stay beside her to hear her song, being genuinly shocked at how the world had deteriorated after pulling out the master sword and so much more. This game... gives a picture to the word adventure. Pure adventure.
You can roam the world freely (true some exeptions like gerudo desert, but that only made reaching those places more rewarding) and do what you want when you want. Go to the market and play games? Retrieve a lost dog? Go to lon lon ranch to go horse riding? Lake hylia to go fishing? This game is YOUR experience and YOUR adventure.

Agreed, you have to look past some minor flaws to fully enjoy the game. But isn't that the case with every game and even all of humanity, the case that we are all flawed in some way.
OoT was great in my opinion. The combination of gameplay, the music (oh song of storms how I love you), the way each person has a personality of It's own... all of this and more contribute to that great adventure.
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Sjibbey wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
I'm probably late to this convo, but I do feel that to some extent, Ocarina of Time was worthy of the praise it got back in it's hey day. It's definitely not my favorite game, but even I will admit that it was very revolutionary for its time, and it was a feature that's taken for granted nowadays. Z-Targeting. To me, the targeting system is what helped define the way 3-D Zeldas would be handled and revolutionized how the game play would be handled, not just with Zelda but other 3-d action/adventure games. To me, Z-Targeting is what made OoT stand out in the day, it was a brilliant move for Nintendo in the series.


I agree mostly with this. People who criticize OoT tend to forget how good this game was for it's time. This was still the pioneering age of 3D games and laid out some fundamentals for the games today. OoT played a big part in this.

When you currently play OoT on the 3DS you're playing a good game, no doubt about that. But try to go back to the days were either the story was the selling point (FF like) or the gameplay (super mario like). OoT tried both aspects and even though the story part was OK, the gameplay aspect was where the game really shined.

I remember the days of calmly wandering through the lost woods among kokiri brethren, how sweet malon was at the lon lon ranch and just stay beside her to hear her song, being genuinly shocked at how the world had deteriorated after pulling out the master sword and so much more. This game... gives a picture to the word adventure. Pure adventure.
You can roam the world freely (true some exeptions like gerudo desert, but that only made reaching those places more rewarding) and do what you want when you want. Go to the market and play games? Retrieve a lost dog? Go to lon lon ranch to go horse riding? Lake hylia to go fishing? This game is YOUR experience and YOUR adventure.

Agreed, you have to look past some minor flaws to fully enjoy the game. But isn't that the case with every game and even all of humanity, the case that we are all flawed in some way.
OoT was great in my opinion. The combination of gameplay, the music (oh song of storms how I love you), the way each person has a personality of It's own... all of this and more contribute to that great adventure.
My own great adventure.


Don't get me wrong, I think OoT is a great game and an amazing game for it's time. I simply meant that compared to more recent games in the Zelda series it's fairly bland. That's something that happens with all things that have a history this big. The original Star Wars was revolutionary and amazing for its time, but compared to The Empire Strikes Back it's a little boring and bland.

The other thing is that I think Ocarina of Time is viewed differently by Zelda fans with different preferences. The things you describe about Ocarina of Time mostly revolve around the immense freedom you have wandering around. It's your own little world and you can do whatever you want whenever you want in it. Most of the gamers I know prioritize this over everything else, because it's really what a game is meant to be: fun. It's the stuff you can't do in a movie or play, which is to really live it. To this day Ocarina of Time is still pretty good compared to today's games. I'd say even though I liked Twilight Princess more overall I felt like OoT Hyrule was a more real, lived-in place.

Even though I really enjoy that freedom of exploration, I tend to prioritize story and plot over everything else, mainly because I didn't grow up with Zelda of even FF but rather old point-and-click computer games which would often be lacking in gameplay and have a lot of story. So Ocarina of Time doesn't appeal to me as much as The Wind Waker or Skyward Sword, which kinda makes you follow the plot for half of the game and then opens up the world later. The story for OoT was really compelling and cutting-edge at the time, it's just now that it seems thin. But Story in games didn't really get better until the 2000's.

I also think OoT3D is the best portable Zelda title ever. I didn't like PH at all, and I never played Spirit Tracks, but OoT's story is right there with most other portable games right now and the emphasis on gameplay makes it more suited for quick, non-story oriented play than more recent Zeldas.

So to conclude, I really appreciate OoT for it's time and still think it's a good game, I just think retrospectively it's kind of boring to me the same way pre-MM Zelda games are in general. It's not, in my opinion, the best Zelda ever made or perfect, but it's still a great portable title, even if it doesn't hold up to the recent home console Zelda releases.
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I'm just gonna derail the conversation a bit to say that I hate Kafei and Anju so fucking much

Seriously, I can't stand having to do the whole quest once to get the Couple's Mask, let alone twice for a POSTMAN'S HAT

It's basically Link standing up and being the adult those two never were and doing things that they could easily do on their own and ARGH


don't get me wrong, majora's mask is my favorite zelda game but come the fuck on
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VCM wrote:
I'm just gonna derail the conversation a bit to say that I hate Kafei and Anju so fucking much

Seriously, I can't stand having to do the whole quest once to get the Couple's Mask, let alone twice for a POSTMAN'S HAT

It's basically Link standing up and being the adult those two never were and doing things that they could easily do on their own and ARGH


don't get me wrong, majora's mask is my favorite zelda game but come the fuck on


I never actually played much of Majora's Mask, as I had to leave for college right after I started playing it. But a lot of the residents of Termina seemed to have some issues.
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Quote:
I agree mostly with this. People who criticize OoT tend to forget how good this game was for it's time. This was still the pioneering age of 3D games and laid out some fundamentals for the games today. OoT played a big part in this.


Oh I'm sure that OoT was a great game when it came out - and I agree with that, the graphics were revolutionary and all that. But I just don't see it when people claim that it still holds up to the other Zelda games of these days - even saying that OoT is better than, like, TP or SS.
Those can't be compared, actually.

I tried playing Majora's Mask several times, I played the opening so often... but it kind of started out bad already. I mean, Link gets turned into a Deku Scrub and you are not allowed to leave Clocktown, so you basically just sit on your ass for 3 days, until you can get into the clock tower and re-obtain the Ocarina of Time to get the actual part of the game started.
And I think I never went further than enter the Great Bay Temple.
I don't think I was actually capable of even getting very far in that temple because I simply didn't understand it. And I spent most of my time, grabbing the Dance Mask and just dancing while the moon descended on me. So I eventually just watched a spoofed playthrough of Majora's Mask (where they went for the couple's mask) and had a good laugh.

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ADA McCoy wrote:
I never played Spirit Tracks

you

need to fix that
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Bad Player wrote:
ADA McCoy wrote:
I never played Spirit Tracks

you

need to fix that


I own it, but I was planning on playing it after I finally finished Phantom Hourglass (I got close to beating it but stopped and I haven't been able to get myself to do it).

Majora's Mask really felt like a Wind Waker prototype to me. I like how many characters there are and I enjoy the whole 3 Day thing, but the characters themselves are kind of flat and one-dimensional compared to TWW. I liked it enough that I would have finished it if I hadn't had to move. I would definitely play it if it got remade on the 3DS because I think I would enjoy it more there for the same reasons I enjoy OoT on it more.

Oh, and my copy of Hyrule Historia came last night. There's the whole chronology section for anyone interested in that, but it's also a giant behind the scenes/art book so I recommend it to anyone interested in those two things.

One thing I don't like at all, though: It was obvious that Headmaster Gaepora from SS was supposed to be the owl from OoT. Facial Expressions, Look, Name, etc. - and the fact that in OoT is discusses the owl as an ancient sage reborn. Yet for some reason the HH claims no connection between the headmaster and the owl but rather is saying the owl is the sage Rauru. Considering (if I remember correctly) that the owl ususally seems unaware of Link's status, I'm not sure why they picked him when the designers obviously originally intended the headmaster to at least be related to him. Whatever.
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ADA McCoy wrote:
VCM wrote:
I'm just gonna derail the conversation a bit to say that I hate Kafei and Anju so fucking much

Seriously, I can't stand having to do the whole quest once to get the Couple's Mask, let alone twice for a POSTMAN'S HAT

It's basically Link standing up and being the adult those two never were and doing things that they could easily do on their own and ARGH


don't get me wrong, majora's mask is my favorite zelda game but come the fuck on


I never actually played much of Majora's Mask, as I had to leave for college right after I started playing it. But a lot of the residents of Termina seemed to have some issues.


You bet they do. Clock Town is an area of the game that I have a love/hate relationship because of all the pointless crap they put you through at the expense of the townsfolk.
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ADA McCoy wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
ADA McCoy wrote:
I never played Spirit Tracks

you

need to fix that


I own it, but I was planning on playing it after I finally finished Phantom Hourglass (I got close to beating it but stopped and I haven't been able to get myself to do it).

Screw your plans, go play ST

have you heard the overworld music for it? That might convince you
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I honestly felt that compared to Majora's Mask, Wind Waker was a step back as far as NPCs went. There were some fun characters in Wind Waker, I will admit, and Wind Waker is a fantastic game. I really don't feel that Majora's Mask's characters are all flat though. What I really liked about it was all the little easter eggs you could go out of your way for to really learn more about the characters than what the initial quests allow. Yeah, if don't take your time to explore, they come off as bland, but I found that if you invest in them, there's so much more. What I really loved too, is that if you look into their lives, it's really amazing how so many character's lives are just intertwined or related in some way or another. I have yet to see another Zelda game pull this off. Wind Waker had some great characters, I loved them, but their lives just don't intertwine with each other's like Majora's Mask does. They seem to fall into the same trope every other Zelda NPC fall into. They're only really concerned about themselves and they don't really have anything to do with each other. There are exceptions in the game itself, but it doesn't feel as fleshed out as Majora's Mask.

I know it's just one example, but it's characters and dialogue like this that really make me appreciate the game and just shows how fleshed out these NPCs can be. I have yet to play another Zelda game that can get me emotional like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDpcOXsNkw

Also, I ain't knockin' on Wind Waker. It still has my favorite battle system in the whole series. Parry command is just too much fun.


Also, I played Spirit Tracks. Loved LOVED the overworld music among some others, but I really can't stand the game. The DS ones just don't do it for me.
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Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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ADA McCoy wrote:
One thing I don't like at all, though: It was obvious that Headmaster Gaepora from SS was supposed to be the owl from OoT. Facial Expressions, Look, Name, etc. - and the fact that in OoT is discusses the owl as an ancient sage reborn. Yet for some reason the HH claims no connection between the headmaster and the owl but rather is saying the owl is the sage Rauru.


Wait, I thought it was pretty soon revealed that the owl is the animal form of the Light Sage Rauru, so that the headmaster is basically designed after Rauru.... then again, I can't think of a single person who actually liked that owl. "Hoot Ho hoo Hoot! Would you like me to repeat what I said? (pressing A to skip, but realizes that the cursor is automatically on Yes so has to listen to it again) I will tell you again" ARGH!! :chinami:

I watched a playthrough of Spirit Tracks and tried to play the game myself. It was okay... the overworld theme isn't one I particularly remember, it never left that much of an impression on me. But after watching the playthrough, I realized that I felt like it was a waste of my time to play Spirit Tracks myself now... plus, after the Silent Realms, I'm kinda afraid of the Guardians in the tower....

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I guess I didn't get far enough into Majora's Mask to see some of the more famous (and emotionally deeper) characters, but for some reason I just didn't really care about clock town and its residents that much in the limited amount of time that I played.

I think it had to do with the different situations Link is in in MM vs WW:

In MM, you are an outsider who suddenly appears in the world. You can talk to the people in Clock Town but there's also dungeons and the overworld to explore, and coming from Ocarina of Time I'm not used to talking to people all the time here.

In WW they start you off in an area where you really can't do anything but talk to the inhabitants of your home island. Unlike the "outsider" link from MM, WW Link already is in on these characters' personalities and nobody is really hiding anything. Also, because there's no time limit on gameplay you can take the time to talk to everyone without worrying about the time. Probably the most important thing is that you are often introduced to characters long before it's time to do their sidequest, so it feels less like just a long list of sidequests accessed through these characters.


Regarding the Owl, No I don't think it was officially revealed until the HH came out in Japan. There were a lot of fan theories, though. If they had already had it in mind, though, then why not tie the headmaster in with Rauru? Heck, why didn't they just call him Rauru? Kind of annoying. I actually liked the owl, although he wasn't a favorite character or something. The whole text in game never bothered me too much.
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MM's characters are far from being bland, but, like you said, the game does not encourage you into talking much, so the player might just never get to see the lives of those people. As you get to know Clock Town's habitants, you start to flesh out their characters and love some and hate some, but it's hard to stay neutral.
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For Zero Escape 3, they should do a reverse-999 where
Spoiler: 999+VLR
we think we're in the Mars mission simulation, but we end up being in the actual ship to Mars.

they gotta do SOMETHING to make it interesting considering how much we know about it from VLR

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Hum... someone just posted in the wrong thread methinks!

@CatMuto about Hyrule Historia.

Quote:
I don't like Hyrule Historia, even if they say it's "official".
To me, it's just a poor attempt of the game developers to please the fanbase by saying "Yes, everything is connected and we totally are gonna make sense out of all 3 split timlines, which are totally connected and not something you shouldn't care about cause this is about having fun playing this goddamn game series!"


Well, you couldn't be moe wrong about Hyrule Histoira even if you tried. :p
First, it's much more than just timeline book. There's lots of concept art, artworks, etc... Alongs with written notes by the developement team (all translated in English). It's full to the brim with info and little stories about the development of each game, and allows players to get to see the series and each game from the developer point of view.
Which is what the timeline is for for the series. It's not to say 'heh, it's connected, for true!!', and more like Miyamoto and co. sharing their views about the series as a whole. You're perfecly right when you say the story has never been quite central to a Zelda game (even though it tends to become more important with each game), and they always inted to keep it that way so as to make sure new players can just hop in when a new game is release, and avoir them feeling overwhelming or feeling they're missing something. That's probably why they never revealed the timeline until 25 years after the release of the first game.

Hyrule Historia is basically a wonderful presents from the devs to the fans. I strongly suggest you check it out (there's preview pages available online, Kotaku for example has some).

On a side note, some of the concept-arts for characters in Skyward Sword are just hilarious or downright weird. Some of them would make Tingle look like a perfectly normal and realistic character :shoe:
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VCM wrote:
MM's characters are far from being bland, but, like you said, the game does not encourage you into talking much, so the player might just never get to see the lives of those people. As you get to know Clock Town's habitants, you start to flesh out their characters and love some and hate some, but it's hard to stay neutral.


Well, as I said, I only was able to put a very short amount of time into the game before moving so I probably didn't play enough to get involved with the characters. I think I'm going to try again in the summer though so I bet I'll get into it then.

And I second the fact that anyone interested in Zelda should check out the HH. The whole "timeline" section is actually fairly small on it and the rest is behind the scenes and development art.
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L~A wrote:
Well, you couldn't be moe wrong about Hyrule Histoira even if you tried. :p
First, it's much more than just timeline book. There's lots of concept art, artworks, etc... Alongs with written notes by the developement team (all translated in English). It's full to the brim with info and little stories about the development of each game, and allows players to get to see the series and each game from the developer point of view.
Which is what the timeline is for for the series. It's not to say 'heh, it's connected, for true!!', and more like Miyamoto and co. sharing their views about the series as a whole. You're perfecly right when you say the story has never been quite central to a Zelda game (even though it tends to become more important with each game), and they always inted to keep it that way so as to make sure new players can just hop in when a new game is release, and avoir them feeling overwhelming or feeling they're missing something. That's probably why they never revealed the timeline until 25 years after the release of the first game.

Hyrule Historia is basically a wonderful presents from the devs to the fans. I strongly suggest you check it out (there's preview pages available online, Kotaku for example has some).


Well, of course I realize I was wrong now.
But if I constantly hear the words "Hyrule Historia" - and I think I dimly remembering hearing that word years ago before the book was brought out - of course I'll think that it's not real. I'm generally suspicious of things unless I have pretty much Word From God (Developers, etc) about things.

And I don't really care about the timeline - it's pointless, anyway.
Like I said before, unless it makes a huge impact on the gameplay or story, I don't give two shits if the Link I'm playing belongs to a certain timeline or is a direct descendant of another Link. It's nice to see references to the other games, but otherwise there's no hard evidence, proof or necessary info in each game that ties it to a certain timeline.
I'm basically a guy named Link, there's this kingdom called Hyrule and the princess there is named Zelda. The bad guy is either Ganondorf or some guy I've never heard about and probably never will again. That's it - so what if this Ganny is the same one from another game? Unless he tells me, "Hah, before I was sealed away I killed that decade's Link." I don't care.

Artwork is nice to look at, but then why not just call it a freaking Artbook?
I mean, the Ranma 1/2 artbook I have has tons of pictures, but also info and comments on the series by the author, interviews with her and other information that can be interesting to know.

Basically, I just don't think they ever should've created "Timelines" because.... well, there is no point to them.

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CatMuto wrote:
L~A wrote:
Well, you couldn't be moe wrong about Hyrule Histoira even if you tried. :p
First, it's much more than just timeline book. There's lots of concept art, artworks, etc... Alongs with written notes by the developement team (all translated in English). It's full to the brim with info and little stories about the development of each game, and allows players to get to see the series and each game from the developer point of view.
Which is what the timeline is for for the series. It's not to say 'heh, it's connected, for true!!', and more like Miyamoto and co. sharing their views about the series as a whole. You're perfecly right when you say the story has never been quite central to a Zelda game (even though it tends to become more important with each game), and they always inted to keep it that way so as to make sure new players can just hop in when a new game is release, and avoir them feeling overwhelming or feeling they're missing something. That's probably why they never revealed the timeline until 25 years after the release of the first game.

Hyrule Historia is basically a wonderful presents from the devs to the fans. I strongly suggest you check it out (there's preview pages available online, Kotaku for example has some).


Well, of course I realize I was wrong now.
But if I constantly hear the words "Hyrule Historia" - and I think I dimly remembering hearing that word years ago before the book was brought out - of course I'll think that it's not real. I'm generally suspicious of things unless I have pretty much Word From God (Developers, etc) about things.

And I don't really care about the timeline - it's pointless, anyway.
Like I said before, unless it makes a huge impact on the gameplay or story, I don't give two shits if the Link I'm playing belongs to a certain timeline or is a direct descendant of another Link. It's nice to see references to the other games, but otherwise there's no hard evidence, proof or necessary info in each game that ties it to a certain timeline.
I'm basically a guy named Link, there's this kingdom called Hyrule and the princess there is named Zelda. The bad guy is either Ganondorf or some guy I've never heard about and probably never will again. That's it - so what if this Ganny is the same one from another game? Unless he tells me, "Hah, before I was sealed away I killed that decade's Link." I don't care.

Artwork is nice to look at, but then why not just call it a freaking Artbook?
I mean, the Ranma 1/2 artbook I have has tons of pictures, but also info and comments on the series by the author, interviews with her and other information that can be interesting to know.

Basically, I just don't think they ever should've created "Timelines" because.... well, there is no point to them.

C-A


They could have called it an artbook, because that's pretty much what it is. I think they probably called it Hyrule Historia to cash in on the timeline mania. Or just because Hyrule Historia sounds cool.

I think the timeline debate appealed to a lot of people because of plot thinness a lot of the early games had. It made things a little more important. For instance, when I was still playing Wind Waker I tracked down a copy of the Ocarina of Time master quest disc for the gamecube. I was really excited when I got it, not because I was dying to play Ocarina of Time, but because I wanted to see the evolution of Hylian Culture from OoT to WW. (It was really interesting to see how mundane, daily-life things in OoT took on religious or important significance in WW as a result of the time and legends told throughout the years. Kinda similar to the story of Final Fantasy X although I think the way WW did it was a little more interesting). If there had been no relation, I probably would not have been able to get through OoT.
It also helps you to get through some of the less interesting Zeldas, such as the Oracle games, and makes some seemingly "throw-away" or "non-important" games like Four Swords Adventures have some kind of significance. Also, I played WW at a friend's house but didn't get a gamecube of my own until about half a year later, and in that time I read a lot of the timeline theories that had been around (and this was before TP and Nintendo's admittance that there were multiple timeline theories.) So I effectively read Zelda's history and the timeline debates like they were real debates about historical events as I had no actual game to use as reference. So as a result the timeline discussion became a big part of my Zelda fandom.

I don't actually think creating the timelines was the mistake Nintendo made. I think the problem was getting too caught on what fans had done before and deciding "well, there's no way we're going to fit these old games on the child or adult timelines, so let's just create a what if situation where Link dies". Fan's timelines didn't retcon anything and paid way too much attention to details because they weren't in the position to change things. Nintendo could have said "Oh well, something doesn't match up perfectly. deal with it. it's a fictional world and isn't perfect". Nintendo basically took the agreed-upon fan timelines (all the games but the old ones, which we couldn't really figure out where they would be) andd just slapped the old ones onto another one.

I actually don't mind the what if timeline that much. It works a lot better if instead of a what if timeline you think of it as this:
Link gets defeated by Ganondorf in OoT. Third timeline happens.
Everything happens linearly until the end of ALttP, when Link wishes on the triforce for everything to be fixed. Not only does this save his kingdom, but his wish also echoes back all the way to OoT and creates a new timeline where OoT link defeats ganon. From there the timeline further splits into the child and adult timelines.

At least then it gives it some weight on the overall universe. That's what I do mind about it, is that it doesn't give the originals as much importance as the newer games.

I think also the timeline was important for the mystery and debate rather than the actual timeline itself. It was a great way for fans to interact, debate, and pick apart little things in the games. So you could say Nintendo's real mistake was releasing an official timeline altogether. Sure, it's nice to know the truth, but having the mystery solved makes it a little less interesting. It's a bit like watching old episodes of LOST after watching the final season, or playing Case 1-2 of GS1 after playing through trials and tribulations. The mystery gets replaced with information which may be just as interesting but isn't as compelling because you and your guesses are no longer part of it.
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Quote:
Nintendo basically took the agreed-upon fan timelines (all the games but the old ones, which we couldn't really figure out where they would be) andd just slapped the old ones onto another one.


That sounds really boring and half-assed... :igarashi:
"Okay, okay, there are timelines. We'll take your theories and... Oh, no older games? Only from OoT onwards? Mmh, we don't want to forget our older games... okay, here's another timeline where Link dies."
Which makes me wonder, what's the point of having "Link" die if there is a Link in every goddamn generation?

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CatMuto wrote:
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Nintendo basically took the agreed-upon fan timelines (all the games but the old ones, which we couldn't really figure out where they would be) andd just slapped the old ones onto another one.


That sounds really boring and half-assed... :igarashi:
"Okay, okay, there are timelines. We'll take your theories and... Oh, no older games? Only from OoT onwards? Mmh, we don't want to forget our older games... okay, here's another timeline where Link dies."
Which makes me wonder, what's the point of having "Link" die if there is a Link in every goddamn generation?

C-A


Well also too, if this link can just die and spawn another timeline it means this is possible in every zelda game ever. And while this "everything that can happen will in one timeline" is a considered possible in the real world, in a narrative it takes a lot of the importance of the games' endings away. That's why I've bought into that Link to the Past wish theory, because it's the only way to say that this third timeline happened without saying "ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE! WIND WAKER LINK DROWNED! TWILIGHT PRINCESS LINK GOT RABIES! SKYWARD SWORD LINK LOST HIS PILOT'S LICENCE!"
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Re: The Legend of Zelda seriesTopic%20Title
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Golly you guys talk about those bad Zelda games too much.
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DoMaya wrote:
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Golly you guys talk about those bad Zelda games too much.


Which ones are you talking about?
I used to have Sam Waterston as my avatar but photobucket added a watermark and also Law & Order has been cancelled for 10 years so it's time for me to move on.
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I think he's just trying to troll or something, as usual
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Re: The Legend of Zelda seriesTopic%20Title
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Honestly Skyward Sword is my favorite as far as gameplay goes, but Majora's mask will always have that awesome story to it.

I'm not that big a fan of OoT, and my friend swears up and down that Link to the Past is and always will be the best Zelda game.
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DoMaya wrote:
Honestly Skyward Sword is my favorite as far as gameplay goes, but Majora's mask will always have that awesome story to it.

I'm not that big a fan of OoT, and my friend swears up and down that Link to the Past is and always will be the best Zelda game.


SS definitely is my favorite Zelda game in terms of fighting controls - no more just smacking a button until the enemy's dead. Majora's Story? Mh, I never saw it as anything particularly special... okay, it is the one game where we see and know that the world will get destroyed if we don't hurry...

I played Link to the Past...
I got to the Dark World, but I didn't have the Moonpearl with me, so I was that pink bunny. So I went back up the last dungeon, got the pearl... and got myself stuck on Death Mountain or wherever I was. Haven't played the game since, although I don't recall too well if the game was that great... it had magic. That's something I missed a tiny bit in SS...

C-A
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DoMaya wrote:
I'm not that big a fan of OoT, and my friend swears up and down that Link to the Past is and always will be the best Zelda game.

Your friend sounds like an incredibly wise and enlightened person.
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Do you see the black one...or the white?

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I appreciate and love Majora's Mask, not only for how different it seems for Zeldas, but its whole approach to the hero itself once you really invest into it.

Mostly every other Zelda is the same. You're called as the destined hero. Your mission is to save the world and claim the title has hero. Everyone is there to aid you. It's all positive, it's all uplifting, it's full of hope, and there's so much support for the hero. When he saves the world, everyone knows it. It's made known, and in most games, he's off celebrating with everyone else.

Now take Majora's Mask. He's already established as the celebrated hero. He can't shoot any higher. So, how about we strip him down, taking away everything that made him great, and on top of that, have him suffer as nothing more than a weak little scrub, giving him absolutely no hope in moving on. No one is really around to support you, it's all about their needs and their focus on the end of the world. Link is forced to overcome his adversities, his hopelessness in a desolate world. There is no destined hero, there is no hope, he has no support from those around him. He has to overcome everything on his own. You even notice when he saves the world, no one knows he did it, and he leaves solemnly by himself.

I don't know, I just love it because it's such a different approach. Take the hero, break him down to his core, and watch him overcome his own weaknesses and hardships to emerge victorious as opposed to being the hero, overcoming heroic trials, and saving the world to emerge victorious.

I always saw Majora's Mask as more of a personal journey for Link, and it's one of the many reasons why I love it so much. The other games, it just doesn't feel as personal of an adventure for me. Link always comes across as brave and heroic, so seeing a different side of him in Majora's Mask was fresh air to me. Heck, you see him legitimately scared and shivering in the beginning of the game, completely fearful of the curse placed upon him, unsure if he can even bear it. I dunno, it just gave depth to a character that really never had any character to him in the first place.


I read into this game way too much.

Also, agreed that LttP is the best Zelda. Made the series what it is.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
I appreciate and love Majora's Mask, not only for how different it seems for Zeldas, but its whole approach to the hero itself once you really invest into it.

Mostly every other Zelda is the same. You're called as the destined hero. Your mission is to save the world and claim the title has hero. Everyone is there to aid you. It's all positive, it's all uplifting, it's full of hope, and there's so much support for the hero. When he saves the world, everyone knows it. It's made known, and in most games, he's off celebrating with everyone else.

Now take Majora's Mask. He's already established as the celebrated hero. He can't shoot any higher. So, how about we strip him down, taking away everything that made him great, and on top of that, have him suffer as nothing more than a weak little scrub, giving him absolutely no hope in moving on. No one is really around to support you, it's all about their needs and their focus on the end of the world. Link is forced to overcome his adversities, his hopelessness in a desolate world. There is no destined hero, there is no hope, he has no support from those around him. He has to overcome everything on his own. You even notice when he saves the world, no one knows he did it, and he leaves solemnly by himself.

I don't know, I just love it because it's such a different approach. Take the hero, break him down to his core, and watch him overcome his own weaknesses and hardships to emerge victorious as opposed to being the hero, overcoming heroic trials, and saving the world to emerge victorious.

I always saw Majora's Mask as more of a personal journey for Link, and it's one of the many reasons why I love it so much. The other games, it just doesn't feel as personal of an adventure for me. Link always comes across as brave and heroic, so seeing a different side of him in Majora's Mask was fresh air to me. Heck, you see him legitimately scared and shivering in the beginning of the game, completely fearful of the curse placed upon him, unsure if he can even bear it. I dunno, it just gave depth to a character that really never had any character to him in the first place.


I read into this game way too much.

Also, agreed that LttP is the best Zelda. Made the series what it is.



That was an awesomely deep analysis you made there. Congratulations!

Just one thing I'd like to point out, however: Link isn't exactly "alone". If it wasn't for the Happy Mask Salesman (ugh), Kaepora Gaebora (ughhhhh) and Tatl, he wouldn't go too much far, because the Song of Healing is what made Link able to overcome the curse and the Song of Soaring is arguably the most useful song in the game.

However, it is still very apealling, because if you stop to think, they took the two most hated characters of OoT and made them have key roles on the story. It's basically Link being pushed to the bottom of a pit and returning to surface with a fork and a measure tape.





EDIT: http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/theme ... s_of_grief
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Last edited by VCM on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dullahan1 wrote:
I appreciate and love Majora's Mask, not only for how different it seems for Zeldas, but its whole approach to the hero itself once you really invest into it.

Mostly every other Zelda is the same. You're called as the destined hero. Your mission is to save the world and claim the title has hero. Everyone is there to aid you. It's all positive, it's all uplifting, it's full of hope, and there's so much support for the hero. When he saves the world, everyone knows it. It's made known, and in most games, he's off celebrating with everyone else.

Now take Majora's Mask. He's already established as the celebrated hero. He can't shoot any higher. So, how about we strip him down, taking away everything that made him great, and on top of that, have him suffer as nothing more than a weak little scrub, giving him absolutely no hope in moving on. No one is really around to support you, it's all about their needs and their focus on the end of the world. Link is forced to overcome his adversities, his hopelessness in a desolate world. There is no destined hero, there is no hope, he has no support from those around him. He has to overcome everything on his own. You even notice when he saves the world, no one knows he did it, and he leaves solemnly by himself.

I don't know, I just love it because it's such a different approach. Take the hero, break him down to his core, and watch him overcome his own weaknesses and hardships to emerge victorious as opposed to being the hero, overcoming heroic trials, and saving the world to emerge victorious.

I always saw Majora's Mask as more of a personal journey for Link, and it's one of the many reasons why I love it so much. The other games, it just doesn't feel as personal of an adventure for me. Link always comes across as brave and heroic, so seeing a different side of him in Majora's Mask was fresh air to me. Heck, you see him legitimately scared and shivering in the beginning of the game, completely fearful of the curse placed upon him, unsure if he can even bear it. I dunno, it just gave depth to a character that really never had any character to him in the first place.


I read into this game way too much.

Also, agreed that LttP is the best Zelda. Made the series what it is.


That....brought tears to my eyes....

*Ahem*

Anyway, I never completed Majora's Mask, as my file got deleted just as I was about to complete the final dungeon. (I forget what it was called. Was it the stone temple?). I thought it was truly brilliant game and it felt like a breath of fresh air after playing the other Zelda games. However, I didn't like how you were being timed. I felt that it made me rush the game and it actually made me feel a little stressed, which is not good in a game... Other than that it was really amazing and once I've finished Minsh Cap and Phantom Hourglass, I'll re-play it.
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Lucy wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
I appreciate and love Majora's Mask, not only for how different it seems for Zeldas, but its whole approach to the hero itself once you really invest into it.

Mostly every other Zelda is the same. You're called as the destined hero. Your mission is to save the world and claim the title has hero. Everyone is there to aid you. It's all positive, it's all uplifting, it's full of hope, and there's so much support for the hero. When he saves the world, everyone knows it. It's made known, and in most games, he's off celebrating with everyone else.

Now take Majora's Mask. He's already established as the celebrated hero. He can't shoot any higher. So, how about we strip him down, taking away everything that made him great, and on top of that, have him suffer as nothing more than a weak little scrub, giving him absolutely no hope in moving on. No one is really around to support you, it's all about their needs and their focus on the end of the world. Link is forced to overcome his adversities, his hopelessness in a desolate world. There is no destined hero, there is no hope, he has no support from those around him. He has to overcome everything on his own. You even notice when he saves the world, no one knows he did it, and he leaves solemnly by himself.

I don't know, I just love it because it's such a different approach. Take the hero, break him down to his core, and watch him overcome his own weaknesses and hardships to emerge victorious as opposed to being the hero, overcoming heroic trials, and saving the world to emerge victorious.

I always saw Majora's Mask as more of a personal journey for Link, and it's one of the many reasons why I love it so much. The other games, it just doesn't feel as personal of an adventure for me. Link always comes across as brave and heroic, so seeing a different side of him in Majora's Mask was fresh air to me. Heck, you see him legitimately scared and shivering in the beginning of the game, completely fearful of the curse placed upon him, unsure if he can even bear it. I dunno, it just gave depth to a character that really never had any character to him in the first place.


I read into this game way too much.

Also, agreed that LttP is the best Zelda. Made the series what it is.


That....brought tears to my eyes....

*Ahem*

Anyway, I never completed Majora's Mask, as my file got deleted just as I was about to complete the final dungeon. (I forget what it was called. Was it the stone temple?). I thought it was truly brilliant game and it felt like a breath of fresh air after playing the other Zelda games. However, I didn't like how you were being timed. I felt that it made me rush the game and it actually made me feel a little stressed, which is not good in a game... Other than that it was really amazing and once I've finished Minsh Cap and Phantom Hourglass, I'll re-play it.


The last dungeon is not the Stone Tower, but I'll not spoil it if you plan on retrying to play.

As for the "rushed game", you can always play the Inverted Song of Time. It's a lifesaver.
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VCM wrote:
The last dungeon is not the Stone Tower, but I'll not spoil it if you plan on retrying to play.

As for the "rushed game", you can always play the Inverted Song of Time. It's a lifesaver.


I did. Without that song the game would have been impossible, however I was still felt like I had to rush. After all, I didn't know if a time consuming puzzle could suddenly pop up from around the corner.
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