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Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
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Author:  Lind [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Who do you think was more evil, Dahlia or Morgan?
Author:  Miss Tetra [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan, because she gave birth to our dearest Dollie.
Author:  Bad Player [ Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Dahlia.

Morgan only attempted to kill 2 ppl (and only killed 1), while Dollie had quite a few more.

And although Morgan claimed she was doing it for Pearl, she was really doing it to life through Pearl. But it still would've helped Pearl. Dahlia did everything just for her own benefit.
Author:  HerGoldenEyes [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
I used to think that Dahlia was the worst one by far, because Morgan was "doing it for someone else".

But Morgan really didn't do anything for anyone, she just wanted to recover her pride. She would do anything for it. Even killing her daughter's beloved cousin.

Dahlia is all about money, selfishness (like Morgan), vengeance and pure evil. I still think she is the worst one, but Morgan is worthless too.

Like mother, like daughter, I guess. :yuusaku:

Quote:
But it still would've helped Pearl.


I don't think that really matters... Pearls would've hated it for sure. Maya is/was her only family (well, besides Iris, but I don't think she knew about that).
Author:  Bad Player [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
HerGoldenEyes wrote:
Dahlia is all about money, selfishness (like Morgan), vengeance and pure evil. I still think she is the worst one, but Morgan is worthless too.

Yeah, they're both bad. There's no arguing about that :P


But what I was saying is that what Morgan did would've at least helped Pearl (even if she would've hated it, and in the process have hurt other people). Dahlia was helping nobody but herself and hurting other people at the same time.



Here is my analogy:
Dahlia: Falling down a 100 foot cliff.
Morgan: Falling down a 100 foot cliff and finding a penny at the bottom! :D
Author:  Franzise Deauxnim [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Motivation:

Morgan - Pride, status. Morgan didn't care what Pearl wanted so that's not really motive.
Dahlia - After the jewel heist (her motivation for that is up for debate), mostly self-preservation until her incarceration, shifted to revenge.

For what it's worth, I think trying to protect yourself is a slightly better reason to resort to murder than a title. Also, Dahlia at least cared enough about her sister to not take serious action against her. Morgan had no problem setting her first children up to take the fall for her plans.

Morgan's worse.
Author:  Chrome Samurai [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
simple...morgan..she and her husband gave a very evil DNA to their children...except pearl..coz i think pearl's father isn't the same as hawthorne's
Author:  ∑ή¡gΜåг [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan: *twitch* PEARL MUST BECOME MASTAH... PERL MUST CUM BECOME MUASTAHHH..AH.AOKOHKEAORKAEPHGKEAPR *DIES*

Dahlia: I love you... now roll on the floor and die, or pendant kthx?

...Morgan's a nut and Dahlia's two-faced.. (irony in the other sister)

But Morgan... simply because I can.
Author:  Lisabasil1959 [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan, simply for the fact she is not aesthetically pleasing to look at.
Author:  Johnny Rotan [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Chrome Samurai wrote:
simple...morgan..she and her husband gave a very evil DNA to their children...except pearl..coz i think pearl's father isn't the same as hawthorne's


Don't froget Iris. She didn't get it either.
Really Dollie was the black sheep of the Fey clan.


Lisabasil1959 wrote:
Morgan, simply for the fact she is not aesthetically pleasing to look at.

You're joking right? :beef:


Anyways. My pick will always be





Image
Author:  Lind [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Johnny Rotan wrote:
Chrome Samurai wrote:
simple...morgan..she and her husband gave a very evil DNA to their children...except pearl..coz i think pearl's father isn't the same as hawthorne's


Don't froget Iris. She didn't get it either.
Really Dollie was the black sheep of the Fey clan.


Lisabasil1959 wrote:
Morgan, simply for the fact she is not aesthetically pleasing to look at.

You're joking right? :beef:


Anyways. My pick will always be





Image

Image
Author:  icer [ Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Johnny Rotan wrote:
Chrome Samurai wrote:
simple...morgan..she and her husband gave a very evil DNA to their children...except pearl..coz i think pearl's father isn't the same as hawthorne's


Don't froget Iris. She didn't get it either.
Really Dollie was the black sheep of the Fey clan.

If it was an 'evil DNA', then Iris is Dahlia's identical twin, so they have identical DNA. That's half the point of them and why it's so tragic. Iris got a different upbringing where Bikini didn't think she was completely worthless.
Author:  FerdieLance [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
What Morgan did wouldn't have helped Pearl. Pearl didn't show any desire to want to be Master, and certainly not at Maya's expense. Morgan treated Pearl as a tool to her ends. If she saw Pearl as an end in herself, it was some sort of twisted internal idea of her daughter that she served, not the actual daughter. In other words, she did what a lot of bad parents do: she treated her kid as an extension of her own ego.

To make it worse, Morgan was fully of age and under no psychological duress when she committed her crimes. Compare that to Dahlia's mental state at age fourteen! Dahlia plunged from a bridge into frigid water, a leap that would be assumed fatal. In other words, Dahlia's plot had two plausible outcomes: she'd be rich, or dead.

Dahlia hates losing, but treats death as "permanent retirement," a way to become unpunishable. Even in 3-1, she's enraged at being defeated, but simply bored with the prospect of being actually tried and sentenced to death. She's not exactly suicidal, but she's not too opposed to dying, either. Yes, her murders are premeditated and evil, but so are Morgan's. Dahlia's crazier, younger, and more desperate, and thus slightly less accountable.

Morgan has no such excuses. To make it worse, there's no scene where she quite admits that she was wrong, or ever lets go of the idea that she's the good guy. Not even Dahlia can lie to herself so effectively. Morgan's got Dahlia's manipulative deceptiveness, cruelty, vengefulness, and narcissism... all wrapped in an extra layer of sanctimoniousness and self-delusion.

Neither are textbook sociopaths, and both could probably be decent people under the right circumstances, with enough time to heal and enough healthy influences, but we never see those.
Author:  Banoon [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
FerdieLance wrote:
Spoiler: Saving space
What Morgan did wouldn't have helped Pearl. Pearl didn't show any desire to want to be Master, and certainly not at Maya's expense. Morgan treated Pearl as a tool to her ends. If she saw Pearl as an end in herself, it was some sort of twisted internal idea of her daughter that she served, not the actual daughter. In other words, she did what a lot of bad parents do: she treated her kid as an extension of her own ego.

To make it worse, Morgan was fully of age and under no psychological duress when she committed her crimes. Compare that to Dahlia's mental state at age fourteen! Dahlia plunged from a bridge into frigid water, a leap that would be assumed fatal. In other words, Dahlia's plot had two plausible outcomes: she'd be rich, or dead.

Dahlia hates losing, but treats death as "permanent retirement," a way to become unpunishable. Even in 3-1, she's enraged at being defeated, but simply bored with the prospect of being actually tried and sentenced to death. She's not exactly suicidal, but she's not too opposed to dying, either. Yes, her murders are premeditated and evil, but so are Morgan's. Dahlia's crazier, younger, and more desperate, and thus slightly less accountable.

Morgan has no such excuses. To make it worse, there's no scene where she quite admits that she was wrong, or ever lets go of the idea that she's the good guy. Not even Dahlia can lie to herself so effectively. Morgan's got Dahlia's manipulative deceptiveness, cruelty, vengefulness, and narcissism... all wrapped in an extra layer of sanctimoniousness and self-delusion.

Neither are textbook sociopaths, and both could probably be decent people under the right circumstances, with enough time to heal and enough healthy influences, but we never see those.

My god, you put a lot of thought into that.

But, Dahlia is responsible for many more deaths and near-deaths, as opposed to Morgan who, generally, only acted as an accomplice. The only thing she was truly, completely responsible for was the countless schemes to kill Maya, which all failed, and thus do not really count. On the other hand, Dahlia was pretty much single-handedly responsible for Phoenix's near-death, Valerie's death, Terry's suicide, and Diego's poisoning. So while Morgan should probably know better because she is much older and Dahlia is still young and may not have developed a conscience yet, I think I'll go with Dahlia anyway.

But really, the branch family is truly a mixed one. One half of it is pure evil (Morgan, Dahlia), the other half are friendly and well-meaning (Pearl, Iris). There is no "black sheep".
Author:  FerdieLance [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
I don't think evil is a strict matter of success or failure. Trying to kill someone and failing is just as evil as succeeding. If this weren't the case, then you could make an argument along the lines of, "Well, Bob would have been less evil if I'd switched his bullets with blanks. I'd have survived. So he wouldn't be quite so evil."

Well thought-out? Oh, don't confuse verbosity with thought, please! It takes me much longer to write a succinct, to-the-point post than to write a long one. The long one doesn't need to be edited. I can just type and type and type, Oldbag-style.
Author:  NinjaMonkey [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan, because she planned the events of 3-5 well in advance, where as Dahlia seemed to do things "on the fly" (the murder of Doug Swallow, seemed to me, to be something that just happened, rather than something that was meticulously planned).
Author:  SonictheHedgehog [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
:tea: without a doubt
Author:  icer [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
FerdieLance wrote:
...[POST]

Congratulations on your insightful post.

Quote:
I don't think evil is a strict matter of success or failure. Trying to kill someone and failing is just as evil as succeeding. If this weren't the case, then you could make an argument along the lines of, "Well, Bob would have been less evil if I'd switched his bullets with blanks. I'd have survived. So he wouldn't be quite so evil."

I agree with this. Morgan isn't less evil because more of her murders failed. Also, most of Dahlia's murders were more motivated by avoiding punishment for herself from previous crimes [for example, trying to kill Phoenix over the bottle because that evidence might lead to re-conviction over Fawles] whereas Morgan's murders were purely to try to advance herself [Pearl as Master would have been an extension of herself.]
Author:  Marche Tobaye [ Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan.
Author:  Brendan2k5 [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Dahlia simply because of her unique situation in the afterlife. She may be dead but like Mia, she can be channeled and cause mischief XD
Author:  An89ty [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan

^She plotted on how to overthrow the main family branch. Got her own Daughter in her plan (Dahlia) to Murder Maya (so that she could get Pearly to become the Master). But I'm thinking that even if Pearl DID summon Dahlia and Godot listened in on the thingy, then I'm pretty sure Morgan's plan would have failed since Pearl would be dead :larry:

Dahlia was just brought up with a fucked up father who only wanted power (as to why he married Morgan). If Dahlia were dropped off at Huzakurain temple alongside with Iris, then she wouldn't have comitted all those murders that got her executed.
Author:  Johnny Rotan [ Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Lind_L_Tailor wrote:
Johnny Rotan wrote:
Chrome Samurai wrote:
simple...morgan..she and her husband gave a very evil DNA to their children...except pearl..coz i think pearl's father isn't the same as hawthorne's


Don't froget Iris. She didn't get it either.
Really Dollie was the black sheep of the Fey clan.


Lisabasil1959 wrote:
Morgan, simply for the fact she is not aesthetically pleasing to look at.

You're joking right? :beef:


Anyways. My pick will always be





Image

Image



Nice but that really doesn't work since it says the evil one is satan, and clearly she isn't him.
Now :damon: on the other hand...
Author:  TheSteelSamurai [ Sat May 02, 2009 4:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
I really don't think DNA should be blamed for their actions...>_>

I think Morgan is the worse one. She claimed everything she did was for Pearl, yet it was really just because she was bitter, wanted revenge, and desired to reclaim the pride she lost when her family became a branch one when her younger sister surpassed her. And in the end, if anything, I think that Pearl would have suffered most of all from her plans. As it was, her mother was already locked away. She then would have had to deal with the fact that her beloved Maya was dead, she herself had killed her, and her own mother had tricked her into doing it. Not only that, but Pearl would likely also take the blame for the suffering Maya's death would cause others, such as Phoenix. For such a young girl, that is a terrible and painful burden. She'd also have the burden of being the new Master, and she'd have no one to turn to. Her guilt would probably lead her to push away people like Phoenix-look at the end of 3-5. She blamed herself for Misty's death, even though she really didn't do anything in that case. There was also the possibility she would channel Dahlia and end up being killed by Godot to protect Maya.

Morgan shows no remorse for her actions, and she can't even admit the truth behind them. At least Dahlia can do the latter. Also, when you still think she's Iris, she says some things that might suggest even Dahlia suffered a bit. Also, Morgan wanted to kill Dahlia the minute she met her again, even though she was already on Death Row, for no good reason. She no doubt had similar feelings toward Iris.

I've never liked Dahlia, but I want to take on the challenge of doing a character analysis for her.
Author:  Anneex [ Mon May 04, 2009 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
MORGAN IS MORE EVIL, since she came up with that plan.. and for being jealous of her little sister. Like seriously, who does that?
But .. Dahlia is very evil because she tried to kill my beloved Phoenix :delilah-hair:
Author:  TheSteelSamurai [ Mon May 04, 2009 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Guess your beloved Godot doesn't make the cut?: P
Author:  blinq [ Mon May 04, 2009 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
MORGAN

basically she just got kids in hope to get a girl with strong powers so she can take the master's place.
Because she didn't become master instead of Misty, she tried everything to make her family the main fey family and her daughter the master. She is a horribly selfish something, she judt wanted revenge for her hurt pride.
Author:  oddy [ Fri May 08, 2009 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
In my opinion Dahlia is the most evil. She was just evil from the beginning and didn't about any other than herself.

I can somehow understand a little why morgan did what she did. I dont think she was evil from the beginning. I think it all started when Morgan was supposed to be the master but her sister got the place instead. At this point I just think she was sad and it turned into anger and evilness over the year.
Author:  Lind [ Fri May 08, 2009 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
TheSteelSamurai wrote:
I really don't think DNA should be blamed for their actions...>_>

I think Morgan is the worse one. She claimed everything she did was for Pearl, yet it was really just because she was bitter, wanted revenge, and desired to reclaim the pride she lost when her family became a branch one when her younger sister surpassed her. And in the end, if anything, I think that Pearl would have suffered most of all from her plans. As it was, her mother was already locked away. She then would have had to deal with the fact that her beloved Maya was dead, she herself had killed her, and her own mother had tricked her into doing it. Not only that, but Pearl would likely also take the blame for the suffering Maya's death would cause others, such as Phoenix. For such a young girl, that is a terrible and painful burden. She'd also have the burden of being the new Master, and she'd have no one to turn to. Her guilt would probably lead her to push away people like Phoenix-look at the end of 3-5. She blamed herself for Misty's death, even though she really didn't do anything in that case. There was also the possibility she would channel Dahlia and end up being killed by Godot to protect Maya.

Morgan shows no remorse for her actions, and she can't even admit the truth behind them. At least Dahlia can do the latter. Also, when you still think she's Iris, she says some things that might suggest even Dahlia suffered a bit. Also, Morgan wanted to kill Dahlia the minute she met her again, even though she was already on Death Row, for no good reason. She no doubt had similar feelings toward Iris.

I've never liked Dahlia, but I want to take on the challenge of doing a character analysis for her.

Personally, I consider this to be a fantastic summary. Have a cookie. :cookie:
Author:  Darling Dream [ Sat May 09, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
I think they're kind of equally evil. Morgan didn't actually kill as many people, but her motives were much more selfish. Dahlia's motives were thanks to her horrible parents, so I guess it wasn't as selfish, but she killed/ruined much more lives.

And after all, as they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Author:  Chloe [ Fri May 15, 2009 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Yep they're both bad cookies indeed. But my opinion is going to be a bit biased since I like Dahlia.

Morgan. - I don't hate people seriously, but I really hate her, she's probally the first ficitonal character I took a proper and serious disliking too. I can't help but think that if she had a son, she would have treated him really badly. Her motives were really selfish and she probably just used Pearly for pride. She's just a very cruel hearted lady. If she had her way, Pearl would have hated her forever.

Dahlia did effect more people's lives, like Diego and Phoenix. But I feel really bad for both her and Iris and felt like given them a hug.
Author:  The Red Dahlia [ Sun May 17, 2009 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
TheSteelSamurai wrote:

I've never liked Dahlia, but I want to take on the challenge of doing a character analysis for her.


Oh yes, please do... we only have one item in the essays section, which has been there since the dawn of time.

And everyone who is saying Dahlia isn't that evil because she had horrible parents... over three quarters of evil people in reality have had bad parents (physical/psychological abuse, neglect, etc).
Dahlia is the only villain who has been fleshed out with her background, etc, so most the other villains in the series probably had terrible parenting as well, but that doesn't make them any less evil.
Author:  JasmineJustice [ Tue May 19, 2009 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Oh, definitely Dahlia. She gave poor Fawles a poisoned bottle and framed him for her killing of Valerie-her own stepsister. She hid evidence with Phoenix and framed him for Swallow's murder. She tried to frame Iris-AND MAYA-for Misty's murder.
Author:  jamie gumshoe [ Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
oh gosh tough decisions hmmmmmmm.... Eurika!! i choose :chinami:

why morgan is defently terrible and deserves the worst mother of the year award dahliahs actions were completley warped she could have choosen to live a better life like iris but instead she choose a path of revenge and hate her attitude almost conveyed her life was a sick game where the goal was to make people suffer now on a psychological view point I defently think dahliahs suffering with different things like abandoment issues from her mother and perhaps even her sister also see seems as if she trying to prove herself that she is the greater one even if it cost her life. All i can say about dahliah is she probaly in her own little world of terrifying hate.
Author:  Capybara [ Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Well the trouble is we don't know the extent of their evil.
I mean, what happened to Dahlia before she came back?
What happened to Morgan before her arrest?

In my mind, Morgan has done the more evil things. While Dahlia just seems to end up killing to stop anyone from finding about what happened on that bridge.
Author:  Midnight Jasper [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
I think Morgan, because I'm one of those people who prefer to look at the pink flowers side of Dahlia. I'm not going to drag up the whole "Dahlia was never loved" thing because we really don't know anything about Morgan's past, but Dahlia was in a pretty messed-up family and I do think that she stole the diamond for revenge against her godawful father, although she did slowly become more evil and paranoid. She also must have at least somewhat forgiven Iris for betraying her at Dusky Bridge, as she let her step in and attempt to get Phoenix's necklace instead of murdering him (although it could be said that Dahlia only did it because she was unable to do otherwise, I guess).

I don't know, I just think that Morgan was prepared to kill anyone and destroy anything: she became totally consumed in her greed. It was just that she was caught early: the fact that she tried to kill less people doesn't really make that much of a difference. I don't think that Dahlia was ever as heartless and evil as Morgan, although in the end that might just come down to a baseless opinion.
Author:  LyingColdly [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan. She tried to have Pearl channel Dahlia.. so PearlDahlia could kill Maya, right?

That's just sick, making your daughter do that
Author:  Meenyman [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
In my opinion, Dahlia was much more evil.
I mean, Dahlia tried stealing an expensive diamond, killed the step-sister, lead Terry to his death, she killed Armando, then hid the poison with Phoenix Wright, plotted to kill Phoenix Wright to hide her crime, then murdered Doug and tried to blame it on Phoenix Wright.

And for her finishing act, she continued to kill when she was already dead. :fire:
Author:  Franziska's Whip [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
For me, Morgan was much more evil. Even Dahlia had her limits; she said herself how disgusted she was at Morgan for involving Pearl. But Morgan was all about her pride. What she did wasn't for Pearl one bit, and her plan could have ruined her own ten year-old daughter's life, or even ended it. I think she's one of the most selfish people in the series.
Author:  Coffee Prosecutor [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Dahlia
she´s the PURE evil
in life and even in death
Author:  SerialVER [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who was more evil? (3-5 Spoilers)
Morgan is messed up for using her own children, specially a dead one, to try to kill off the main family Feys just for Pearl to take power. Not to mention that she also wanted to do all this even though Pearl had a good relationship with the main family.

Dahlia I think was more evil through upbringing and anger at the world, a bitch sure but eh.
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