Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Oliver wrote:
It doesn't matter when Larry appears, just know this: There is always, always time for Larry.
When something smells, it's usually the Butz.
POHLKUNKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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whoknowscran wrote:
Absolutely sure they didn't flub AAI2, so don't be so sure.
I really, really detest like 90% of that game, honestly. It's the only game in the series I don't adore.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Oliver wrote:
It doesn't matter when Larry appears, just know this: There is always, always time for Larry.
And he's always around when nobody wants him.
Sounds kinda like Nick, actually. This game would be a fine opportunity for the two to get together and chill... literally.
And then Larry can warm himself up by talking about this amazing girl he found and Nick will call him out for trying to get with a 14 year-old princess.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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nintoforgi wrote:
I really, really detest like 90% of that game, honestly. It's the only game in the series I don't adore.
It's pretty much unanimous that the 5th episode is platinum-class (people regularly equate it to 2-4, and 3-5 kinda but that one is hard to match in terms of buildup), so if you dislike AAI2, I don't know what to tell you.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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If I can hop on neogaf and SA and just find several pages of people praising AAI2, then it seems to me that it didn't fail. And that's from a fan translation no less, which means a group of people needed to like it enough to put that effort in, in the first place. Hell, people still keep asking for an official translation.
I'm not seeing the flub here.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Besides, even if you were right, it doesn't change anything meaningfully anyway. No matter whether I say "GK2 is terribly written" or "I like nothing about the writing of GK2" I still don't want the new team tackling anything that can affect my opinion of the games I like more.
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.. Actually, "Stop having fun, guys" qualifies as shouting into the wind as well. Hmm, some kind of paradox has occurred.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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nintoforgi wrote:
I never said stop having fun, mere posts ago I said it's no skin off my back if you like GK2-5 or GK2 in general.
Really? Because you literally just said that people can't like what they want.
nintoforgi wrote:
"Lots of people like it so it must be good at some greater level" is one of the poorest arguments there is in the world. There is no greater level of achievement, everything in the world has lots of people who like it just by the virtue of how many people there are in the world. A lot of people agreeing do not add up to more than a lot of people of the same opinion.
See, you're not the divine oracle of entertainment and media. You can't really say if something is a success from just your opinion alone.
nintoforgi wrote:
YOU are the one telling me I can't have my opinion.
No I do believe I said the exact opposite.
whoknowscran wrote:
Sure, you as an individual can like and dislike whatever you want
Moreover, we get it, you don't want Maya back because of a petty gripe. You are the second person to do this and quite frankly it's just phoning it in by this point.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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nintoforgi wrote:
I never said stop having fun, mere posts ago I said it's no skin off my back if you like GK2-5 or GK2 in general. YOU are the one telling me I can't have my opinion.
We're not telling you can't have your opinion.
We're saying that your singular, sole opinion does not mean anything, really. If you didn't like the writing in GK2, fine. Lots of people did* and lots of people didn't, but it seemed to sell decently enough, so the same team will likely be used.
* I have neither opinion. Still can't get myself to proceed in the game. That prisoner dude with the polar bear on his chest just freaks me out... (Plus, I don't really want to play the fan translation... I don't like the changed names)
C-A
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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RayquazaSenpai wrote:
Oliver wrote:
It doesn't matter when Larry appears, just know this: There is always, always time for Larry.
When something smells, it's usually the Butz.
And he smelly wonderful.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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whoknowscran wrote:
nintoforgi wrote:
I never said stop having fun, mere posts ago I said it's no skin off my back if you like GK2-5 or GK2 in general.
Really? Because you literally just said that people can't like what they want.
See, you're not the divine oracle of entertainment and media. You can't really say if something is a success from just your opinion alone.
No I do believe I said the exact opposite.
Moreover, we get it, you don't want Maya back because of a petty gripe. You are the second person to do this and quite frankly it's just phoning it in by this point.
All that this argument we're having really comes down to is a difference in viewpoint of whether there is some overarching objective echelon of "success" or "failure" that something reaches if enough people agree it does. Of course I'm not the divine oracle of entertainment and media, I'm the divine oracle of entertainment and media for my own tastes and consumption. My opinion matters more to me than every other opinion in the world combined, why on Earth would it be any other way? And that goes both ways, I have no illusions that my opinion of GK2 is supposed to supersede yours, you shouldn't care what I think about your opinion of it. I can say if something was a success or failure for myself and nothing you or a bunch of yous can say can convince me otherwise, just like I can't and wouldn't try to convince you that something you did like was a failure or didn't was a success for whatever controversial opinions you may have yourself, which is what you did when you responded to my posts voicing my, in all cases, explicitly personal dislike of GK2 with "yeah but other people like it."
CatMuto wrote:
We're not telling you can't have your opinion.
We're saying that your singular, sole opinion does not mean anything, really. If you didn't like the writing in GK2, fine. Lots of people did* and lots of people didn't, but it seemed to sell decently enough, so the same team will likely be used.
* I have neither opinion. Still can't get myself to proceed in the game. That prisoner dude with the polar bear on his chest just freaks me out... (Plus, I don't really want to play the fan translation... I don't like the changed names)
C-A
We're saying that your singular, sole opinion does not mean anything, really. If you didn't like the writing in GK2, fine. Lots of people did* and lots of people didn't, but it seemed to sell decently enough, so the same team will likely be used.
* I have neither opinion. Still can't get myself to proceed in the game. That prisoner dude with the polar bear on his chest just freaks me out... (Plus, I don't really want to play the fan translation... I don't like the changed names)
C-A
And I was CERTAINLY never claiming that I'm going to make the teams change over by voicing my opinion, I have no idea where you got that. I was just sharing my viewpoint on returning characters and how I think they would be handled, as is the purpose of a forum. But, in any case, I totally agree, my opinion doesn't mean anything. I'm just saying that a whole bunch of opinions that don't mean anything doesn't add up to something which does mean something, a collective opinion is just as ultimately irrelevant as a singular.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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CatMuto wrote:
nintoforgi wrote:
I never said stop having fun, mere posts ago I said it's no skin off my back if you like GK2-5 or GK2 in general. YOU are the one telling me I can't have my opinion.
We're not telling you can't have your opinion.
We're saying that your singular, sole opinion does not mean anything, really. If you didn't like the writing in GK2, fine. Lots of people did* and lots of people didn't, but it seemed to sell decently enough, so the same team will likely be used.
Who are you and what have you done with CatMuto?
(Look, it was either commenting on Muto having a surprisingly agreeable stance or trying to read nintoforgi's wall of text.)
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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I liked GK2, but I don't see how anything he said suggest "you should stop liking it cos it's bad". If anything, you are the one saying, "you can't think that GK2 is a failure cos everyone thinks it's good". He CAN think that AAI2 is a failure to HIM. He's not telling anyone to dislike it, he's just giving his opinion on GK2's writing.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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In the long run, why even bother pointing it out? Other people want to see what changes about Maya. Stating "Well I don't want to see her at all" doesn't actually incite meaningful conversation, just whatever worthless tangent this was.
The words "if you have nothing to say, don't say anything at all" come to mind.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Oliver wrote:
Hey guys... What if "that person" WAS Larry?
Don't be ridiculous, we already know who Larry was.
Spoiler:
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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nevertalk wrote:
Oliver wrote:
Hey guys... What if "that person" WAS Larry?
Don't be ridiculous, we already know who Larry was.
Spoiler:
Oh my god... It was so obvious!
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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whoknowscran wrote:
In the long run, why even bother pointing it out? Other people want to see what changes about Maya. Stating "Well I don't want to see her at all" doesn't actually incite meaningful conversation, just whatever worthless tangent this was.
The words "if you have nothing to say, don't say anything at all" come to mind.
The words "if you have nothing to say, don't say anything at all" come to mind.
Because, at a greater level, this conversation isn't just "we all want to see Maya back," it's "what are we all hoping for out of AA6." If this conversation were just about Maya, too, I'd have just as much a claim to you silencing my half of the conversation. And, anyway, it's not meaningful either way, positive or negative. It's just us all spending a (hopefully) nice time talking about games we enjoy.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Oliver wrote:
Hey guys... What if "that person" WAS Larry?
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
POHLKUNKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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But why do you care so much if Maya comes back or not? Didn't you publicly state you basically don't even like the games (anymore)? It'd be like me going to the Call of Duty forums and tell them which guns should and shouldn't be added in the next game. (Just giving a strange example.)
I also can't help but give my two cents on the heated debate above.
whoknowscran, I think you're being way too hostile. nintoforgi simply mentioned what he thinks of the writing and that he doesn't want them to attempt certain things.
You're the one who then started strawmanning, claiming he's pushing his opinion down people's throats and drawing on a tangent, while you are just as much (if not more, due to the strawman) responsible for the tangent
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Nurio wrote:
whoknowscran, I think you're being way too hostile.
Maybe. I'm probably just venting from these repeated discussions. We've gone through this loop of "that one person" who doesn't want X to show up because of "personal reasons" too many times now, and it kind of got old.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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In this case, instead of:
- "I think the team will botch Maya because AAI2 is terrible"
- "AAI2 isn't terrible, tons of people liked it"
Something more along the lines of:
- "I think the team will botch Maya because their AAI2 plot of 'Edgeworth is tempted to become a defense attorney' felt like it was retreading old ground and ignoring past growth for the sake of drama"
- "I disagree - I thought it was a natural development (which a lot of people enjoyed) given the circumstances, and I think the team will do well by Maya"
Might have worked better.
Also, Oliver, RayquazaSenpai - try to avoid getting too spammy with the Larry tangents.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Bolt Storm wrote:
Also, Oliver, RayquazaSenpai - try to avoid getting too spammy with the Larry tangents.
Ah, apologies. Sometimes I get... A bit off-topic.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Oliver wrote:
Hey guys... What if "that person" WAS Larry?
Nick, I'm a probocis now, too! Just like Edgey.
Oh God, no...
*sniff* But I had to shave my head! The hell's up with that!?
Wonder if we should tell him about the whole celibate thing, too...Quote:
But why do you care so much if Maya comes back or not?
Because bringing Maya back would be a cheap tactic to get sales by people who want her back for no reason, other than wanting her back. It would be the same if Tales of Symphonia got a sequel (or its Spin-Off was actually altered) which had the sole purpose of "Kratos Aurion returns to Aselia!". I love Kratos, I was pissed that he left the game at the end - and I was pissed that he got a pity-cameo in the Spin-Off's NG+ - but I would be more annoyed if they brought him back, simply to appease fans like me, who want him back.
Regardless of my own opinion, it's just a bad trick to make people buy something. (Or, like, the DMC Devil May Cry reboot suddenly giving you the 'old' Dante appearance for free to make people, who hate the reboot look, buy the game) And it gives me pessimistic views: if bringing that one character back is their big draw, I fear they will let the game's plot or mechanics suffer because... what do they care? They're giving us the old character, we won't care about the rest, obviously.
Even if I don't like AA for various reasons, I don't think it should rely on cheap-ass tricks like this.
Paints the company and game series itself in a bad color.
C-A
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Then there is the fact that some people see value in references to past events. My opinion on references is that there should be a "healthy" amount of them. References for their own sake have little value. It's their role in the story that gives them true value. A reference can be used to show contrast as well as similarity between two things. As an example I take Ema and Lana being heavy references to Maya and Mia. People call Ema a Maya clone, but that's a shallow view on Ema. She is intentionally similar to Maya to give Phoenix a chance to think about some of Maya's aspects. But as much as she is similar, she has differences too. The differences aren't well highlighted or used here, but they are none the less there.
So what am I trying to say here? The heavily suggested inclusion of Maya is a reference by inclusion. They could just make it a trivial camo, but they could also use this new story to show how Maya and her relationship with Phoenix has developed. She isn't a blank slate and that's important. We already "know" her and will, knowingly or not, use this knowledge when experiencing this story. We get a chance to see how she has taken the role of being the Master. We get to see how she has matured.
There is also the potential to show strong contrast by intentionally changing her character into something that feels wrong. This is a way to showing, instead of telling, that "something" happened to her. To take the most relevant example, look at DD and Apollo's new look in the game. There is a reason why he's acting up. You may or may not like how he acts or why, but there is a reason, a IMHO heartwarming reason.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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henke37 wrote:
"Our experiences shape us and make us who we are today. They are the foundation that we build upon each day of our lives." - Me.
Truly a wonderful saying.
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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henke37 wrote:
Then there is the fact that some people see value in references to past events.
I have nothing against references, they can be sweet little nods to previous events.
But bringing back an old character is not a reference.
C-A
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Even the general media reflects this. Phoenix is always paired with Maya in spinoff material. It's only been the last two mainline games that haven't. Now AA4 didn't intend to do that, as Phoenix wasn't intended to be there at all, however I wonder if DD avoided using her to actually give her a proper reintroduction. Think of it as if this was the plan from the start (kinda). A lot changed in 8 years, after all, and you don't simply have a main character vanish and reappear without dedicating some time to it.
Heck, it's not even bringing her back. She's already showing up in PXZ2 (with Phoenix as per normal), so it's a simple case of resyncing the mainline titles. You kind of can't ignore what effectively is a face of the franchise.
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whoknowscran wrote:
She's already showing up in PXZ2 (with Phoenix as per normal)
I'd like to add that Phoenix and Maya together are considered a "solo" unit in this even though there are two of them. Just like in UMvC3, where Phoenix could have just been fighting alone, he isn't. Maya's considered that integral a part of the Phoenix experience.
Phoenix and Maya were also always together even in their background cameos in AAI. Outside of AJ and DD, the two are always depicted together. Ignoring the bond between them is extremely out of character for the both of them and, frankly, damaging to the story as a whole. They've literally risked their lives for each other. You don't have a relationship like that end up as just the occasional letter or phone conversation. Maya's important to the continuity of the series and Phoenix as a person.
As I've said before, the fact we're even having this conversation is ridiculous. Maya's a massive part of Ace Attorney. She has almost as much screen time as its main character and is always the girl in his corner. Even with just that letter in DD, she still cheered him up and cheered him on. Now it's time to bring it home.
Clearly, considering the setting, they've planned to give Maya a big role in AA6 and all the sour grapes in the world won't change that.
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nevertalk wrote:
Clearly, considering the setting, they've planned to give Maya a big role in AA6 and all the sour grapes in the world won't change that.
My pure spite wishes that Maya will have a tiny role, just so y'all's faces will go red.
C-A
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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luck wrote:
Well, that's one more person that wants Maya in the game now XD.
I don't want her in it, but if she absolutely has to be, my spite want her to have a tiny role, just so that everyone who predicted "ZomG, Kurain Kingdom = total new Maya HEAVY FOCUS YES PLZ CLICK!!" will be proven wrong.
C-A
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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henke37 wrote:
There is also the potential to show strong contrast by intentionally changing her character into something that feels wrong. This is a way to showing, instead of telling, that "something" happened to her. To take the most relevant example, look at DD and Apollo's new look in the game. There is a reason why he's acting up. You may or may not like how he acts or why, but there is a reason, a IMHO heartwarming reason.
I wouldn't mind seeing the game taking Maya in this direction, but I'm still a bit wary of it. It was done well with Apollo, since he was already made out to be someone who takes himself and anything to do with him pretty seriously, especially if no one else seems to. He's a pretty honest and straightforward guy, and seeing him keep to himself despite the support of others delivered a powerful message.
Maya is a bit different. She's someone who prefers to hide her real feelings and stay strong even if she's lost face or dignity. The last thing she'd want to do is make Nick or anyone else worry over her again. Nonetheless, this direction could be utilized effectively all the same if she's forced into a situation where a decision she makes will determine the fate of someone else, even if that someone else is someone she doesn't know that well or even at all. High stakes and risks lead to mounting pressure, and I would look forward to how this sort of situation plays out.
Quote:
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Maybe it's just me, but this quote sounds familiar and may have been said by someone not named henke37. :P
whoknowscran wrote:
Well sure, but there's a bit of a difference between bringing back an old character (basically any individual one off character from an individual case), and bringing back a main character. Maya is just as much key to the franchise as Phoenix is. Hell, you could argue that the two characters are one in the same. A Yin and Yang, as it were (for lack of a better description).
Well, I wouldn't go that far to say they're two sides of the same coin, but I get your point. Phoenix has been kind of a loner, even if he doesn't show it, across two games. There were still Trucy and later Athena to keep the bubbly levels up, but there was no one in particular that we as the players could more easily identify with him... beside Edgeworth, but he only appeared in one case and in the latter game. Heck, even his interactions with Pearls were reminiscent of his time with Maya and they helped bring his true self back, one without the image of his being a "boss" (or "father" to Trucy specifically) or a "public figure" with seemingly more authority than he actually has.
It was a small, almost trivial in a way, chunk that was missing, but when the void was filled, it was more satisfying than any scene with him that preceded it.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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CatMuto wrote:
luck wrote:
Well, that's one more person that wants Maya in the game now XD.
I don't want her in it, but if she absolutely has to be, my spite want her to have a tiny role, just so that everyone who predicted "ZomG, Kurain Kingdom = total new Maya HEAVY FOCUS YES PLZ CLICK!!" will be proven wrong.
C-A
Metal Gear Solid 2 did that first.
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Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
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Quote:
but there was no one in particular that we as the players could more easily identify with him...
A decent, well-written main character doesn't need an 'attachment' to identify them with.
Look at Goku from Dragonball. His silhouette is already pretty tell-tale about him; spikey hair, training gi. If you put his cloud Nimbus next to him, you still know who it is, but ultimately makes no difference. The cloud is... it's an Anhängsel. It's there, but you can remove it just fine and still recognize Goku.
Or even L from Death Note. It might be more difficult to look at L's silhouette without in the iconic pose of him squatting, but you could still recognize him.
If you're really saying that Phoenix is not 'complete' as a character without Maya, then Phoenix fails as a main character.
C-A
Re: Ace Attorney 6 live stage show at TGS - Apollo, demo foo
Racing through the sky like a Missile
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It's one of the reasons why Takumi wanted to start anew with Apollo and introduce an entirely different cast that wouldn't simply merge in with the old. But then Phoenix had to be included somehow in that game, so he was, but then we end up not seeing much of him. He's kinda been left out of the fun, even if he's also the one who was running things behind the scenes (with Edgeworth's help, maybe, but that was never confirmed).
Then, by the time DD and now GS6 have come, it's the start of a new "trilogy" of sorts with Phoenix returning as main character. It's always a good thing to introduce new characters to mix with the old, but likewise, the old works best with the source. It's why Maya is suddenly so relevant despite there being little to no room for her in the past two games. Now that GS6 hints at something more relevant to her, it's an opportunity. It's no guarantee, but if they aren't going to bring her back in this one, who knows when she'll get another chance... if at all.
But what if she doesn't need to come back? Sure, then let's figure out a way to get rid of Nick and pretend Edgeworth wouldn't care to reappear.
It's a chain reaction and a cycle into the abyss, where nothing comes back up.
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
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