People will always be upset if one of the main characters (in anything really) gets replaced.
*coughdeathnoteLcough*

I liked Near actually not as much as L but still and at least is still in it.

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Yea but many people stopped watching after I personally didn't mind them but this is way off topic. XD

Yea I don't understand why people can't accept the series for what it is. :/ I actually like hobohodo!

Last edited by EmaNyeTheScienceSkye on Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HoboHodo is really cool and mysterious and still has the same sense of justice.

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Yea I think people just think 'this Phoenix' is too different than what they are used too. Besides there wasn't that much of an uproar when people found out what Phoenix was like in college. xD

Yeah he was really different and wimpy back then and now he's really cool.

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Yea I mean I personally like that he changes so much. I guess people just want everything to stay the same but in reality people don't stay the same for their whole lives. xP

It's true and he still has the same wit and he will change and plus it's been 7 years...he is going to change no matter what.

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Don't apologise, the title question is a good one which I think we should answer. No use just 'fighting' without figuring out the causes...

Now, most people who want Phoenix do not want to 'ditch Apollo', it's just that if the choice is Phoenix OR Apollo, they will want Phoenix. Not only because they like Phoenix better (more compelling character) but I think because they are still annoyed over the total disrespect in the way the writers handled him. I mean, they practically ruined his life just to put him up for 'trial' by 'jury' (the players, if you played that game without spoilers the entire game you would be judging Phoenix without knowing what happened) and this was kind of so you couldn't play as him, so there was an actual reason to play as Apollo. Of course, poor Apollo was as much a casualty as Phoenix, since Phoenix kind of did everything and the only reason Apollo was even needed as a character in 4-1 or 4-4 was because he had a lawyer badge simply because the writers took Phoenix's away. Oh and it doesn't get 'resolved' at the end either.

In fact, due to poor writing, it's like the only reason we have to play as Apollo is because they decided to disbar Phoenix, otherwise there would have been no reason to do so. And they disbarred Phoenix so we could have a reason to play as Apollo. Blaming Apollo for this poor writing is stupid, but it probably doesn't win him as many fans. Disbarring would have been okay if the situation had been handled differently but it wasn't.



That's part of the problem though, there was no point to bring Phoenix back into this arc, except that Capcom required them to. Phoenix gained nothing significant from this arc and lost practically everything he gained in the previous arc. It's... unfair. A token gesture of a daughter doesn't compensate for losing everything he worked so hard for in his trilogy. And the writers didn't give it back.


I agree with some people here that Phoenix reached the limits of useful character development possible in an entire game about him being a lawyer like 1-3. However, a split seems very necessary. Give Phoenix 1 or 2 cases in the game (unrelated or only slightly related to other cases of Apollo's which Apollo performs without input from Phoenix), or send him [and Maya, and Edgeworth] to GK2 (which doesn't exist, but supposing they made it a series.). He can show up and participate in the game without having to have a whole 4-law case game and they can tie up the plotholes of his relationships to old chars 'disappearing'.

That seems pretty smart icer and thank you for acctually reading mine.

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Yea this is a good point I mean I think they need to do something to put the fans at ease. Though this will make Apollo seem even less like a main character and more of a separate subplot in Phoenix's life.

Fanpleasing leads to shit games. Always has done, always will do.

Poor old Sonic. He never stood a chance :(

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Good point guess I am just tired of hearing people complain. -__-
So lets just make a world were nothing ever changes, everyone is happy, and nothing ever bad ever happens to anyone except for the 'bad guys' who go to jail (or get the death sentence :D) with the help of Phoenix and his kind and loving friends! -insert rainbows and sparkles here-

*Grabs a sledge hammer and hits the gong that is a few inches away from him really hard* This argument will now stop otherwise this sledge hammer is gonna have your blood on it. Besides you guys are getting a bit off topic back to the topic PLEASE. Thank you.

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Kay, let's get back on topic.

I would like to see Apollo again in the next game, as a main character, that is. Apollo isn't somebody who would work as a side character. I just can't see Hoboroki in the next game. If you don't get my point, I am saying that Phoenix, with his new hobo style and attitude, is very well suited to the role he played in AJ. But if now Apollo would switch places with Phoenix and would play the side character, that just can't work. One-time-hobo-lawyer? That would work out. Sort of like 3-5, just with Hobo!Phoenix and Apollo instead of Edgeworth and Lawyer!Phoenix. Or maybe Phoenix becomes the next prosecutor.... nah, I don't think so. Just keep everything like it is (with the exception of changing Klavier) and give Apollo more time. I think he'll turn out to be a fine main character, maybe still second to Phoenix, but still good.

The McD

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People want to think or hope (including myself) that Phoenix will be the star of the next game because of two reasons:

1. Let's face it, Apollo doesn't have that same charm as Phoenix does, and he doesn't have the same cast of quirky characters, and cool sidekicks that the PW trilogy had. No more Maya, Edgeworth, Gumshoe, Von Karma, Godot, etc. etc. There's absolutely nobody to even hope to see now. All you got was Hobohodo, Ema Skye (who seems much different) and Winston Payne. What a letdown!

2. Nobody likes Hobohodo. He doesn't look like the old Phoenix, he doesn't act like the old Phoenix, he doesn't even sound like the old Phoenix! It was pure ruin of a great character. Outside of the demo, I haven't even played Apollo Justice yet and I can see this.

Now, Capcom has three choices with this situation here.

1. Make Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney non-canon, throw him into the background, and never hear from him or any of the supporting cast in that game (except maybe Ema.) This pisses off the Apollo fanbase, but it makes the people who played the REST OF THE AA GAMES happy. (We all know that there are more Phoenix Wright fans than Apollo Justice fans.)

2. Keep going with Apollo Justice, which could kill a lot of the fanbase off, due to the way they did away with Phoenix's storyline.

3. Keep Apollo Justice partially canon, but fix Phoenix's storyline so that it doesn't become totally f***** up (I.E. Phoenix Wright as an attorney returns). This satisfies both parties somewhat, but it would make games tougher to make, and probably would result in shitty games and contradictions of the storyline.

Now if I were Capcom, I would clearly go with the 2nd option. More money, larger fanbase, it's a win-win situation. Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney was a gamble in the first place, and continuing the Apollo Justice series would be an even larger gamble.

So for all you Apollo fanboys out there, don't think that Apollo is sealed into the deal for another game until it's confirmed.

People are just happier with Nick cause he's more familiar.
I mean if anything he got better since he became a hobo it's like he got an injection of cool into his bloodstream.

He's like Morpheus to Neo in the first matrix film, the all powerful mentor, untouchable superior to the protoge. Ok sure effectively winning the first case for Apollo kinda didn't help but like Neo eventually he'll seem ultra awesome Of course...maybe if Ema was booted off the series....it'd help at least for me. Still give Apollo time he'll dish out mighty justice eventually.

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I just don't see why they had to disbar Nick at all, couldn't Apollo just have been a different lawyer with no connection? But they can't undo it now, so...

I think Nick should become a lawyer again, thus ending his hoboness and giving him a steady job, Then, if they really wanted him still in the games, he could play a roll like Grossberg in AA 1.

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If you haven't even played the game we're discussing I motion that you have no business making wild and inaccurate generalizations about it, and what other fans think about it. Didn't we just say to limit commentary to your personal feelings about the game and not what "the majority of fanom" may or may not think?

I don't think splitting the games in two would help anything (especially with Phoenix tied so strongly to Trucy and Apollo now). They can only put out one game every 2 years anymore: why drag down production time further? Unless you built up the franchise enough so that you could have two teams working at once, but then the opportunities for contradictions increase by a lot. They can't make sense of their own timeline, how are they going to manage two?

I really believe the best thing they can do is make GS5 as they had intended. There was plenty left over from AJ to work with. Proving themselves to the fans with a great new installment - with Apollo - will earn them more points in the end than retreating to tapped-out lawyer!Phoenix.

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Easy: limit involvement in each others' timelines. I really think Apollo has to break apart from Phoenix or at least only have Phoenix show up occasionally for a small part. Also, Phoenix content doesn't all have to be set after game 4 - 7 years to fill in. And isn't GK team different to GS5 team?


Proving themselves to fans by fixing some of the injustice they wrought on Phoenix's trilogy would endear them better. (It was like they threw away his entire trilogy!) It wouldn't take much. They can give a decent Apollo segment as well. Also, I'm starting to fear they didn't actually have some big overarching plot planned out for GS5 since it's so long and nothing on the game.

They're not supposed to 'retreat' to Lawyer!Phoenix, they're merely supposed to correct some of that injustice they invoked on his character in one case or something. (Since GS4 wasn't their original creative vision for his character anyway, they were just forced to include him.) Then there can actually be focus on Apollo like those Apollo fans want. I have trouble understanding why some of these fans don't want this. But maybe this is the wrong thread to ask....

If they did have some original vision for the Apollo arc, I think it originally didn't include Phoenix.

I think Apollo needs his own game now..
We all loved Phoenix, but why do some people hate Apollo?
We should give him the chance to prove he can be a main character.
A good one.
If we'd denounce everything and everybody from the beginning like Apollo,
nothing would ever change.
Phoenix' time is over!
and everybody should accept that.

Up to this point, I'm conviced that Capcom can work Phoenix well in the next game, lawyer or not. However, there are numerous ways GS5 shouldn't be treated as.

- A game without Phoenix. I've said it once and it seems I need to say it again, taking Phoenix out of the plot practically makes "GS5" be reduced to "5".
- A game where Phoenix becomes a lawyer, and that's all; no plot use for it, nothing interesting done with it, just Phoenix back as a lawyer. Same thing applies for Phoenix not becoming a lawyer again and being thrown completely in the background, not affecting the plot in any way anymore.
- A sequel to GK that becomes the place where Phoenix and his old cast appears. This, again, kills the "GS" in "GS5".
- A game that writes GS4 out of canon completely, ignoring that Phoenix has been disbarred, Apollo ever existed, etc. It's been said that this will please the majority of the fanbase. Please them? Who LIKES a discontinuity sequel?
- A game that reverts back to Phoenix and writes Apollo out of the story completely, or wildly throws him to the background. We're in a new arc now, face it. People need to be glad Capcom managed to even pull off a sequel to a practically completely over triolgy, without discontinuing anything that happened. Yes, some people don't like what has been done to Phoenix, but, what if they did nothing at all? That'd be worse. We'd be a fanbase to a trilogy long dead.

I apologize for my actions of generalizing the game and putting all of fanom in it. But however rash you think my opinions are, they stay the same about Apollo Justice:Ace Attorney. Even I haven't played the game (yet) I still know some of the storyline to the game, due to these forums and the main site. I'll stick with my opinions from now on though.

I really, really, really hope that is a strong "yet," as I remember feeling the EXACT SAME WAY when I learned about AJ--and I'm a spoiler whore, so I knew just about every major detail about the game. I was going to ignore the game completely and pretend it didn't exist in canon. But I'm a sucker for my fandoms, and I got the game anyway. And I was thrown back by the subjectivity of your opinions, seeing as I now love both Apollo AND Phoenix (both pre- and post-disbarment).

I cannot deny that people are angry over "what they did to Phoenix". Granted, I don't see it. I think he's still Phoenix. Phoenix's new role in the law is through the Jury System, I think, and I would be content if Capcom either kept him there or reinstated him.

I also think Apollo's gotten a good amount of backstory already, and I find the "family" backstory to be far more interesting than Phoenix's "lawyer" backstory (buuuuut that's just me). But of course it's not enough. There is no way Capcom could even conceivably drop the series now, not with the gaping holes left in Apollo's past, including his very own "lawyer" story.

So...yeah. I would write more about what I've read (some of these arguments have made me kind of angry, actually...), but I have a poor memory. ^^;;

For the record: Apollo and Phoenix are two totally different characters. Yes, they are. They may have similarities, but a lot of those are only on the surface. Both want to expose the truth and have a rather sarcastic sense of humor, but Apollo seems to be hastier (which is where the "unsure" element comes in--sort of like his voice beats his brain to the punch), more awkward, and WAY more freaking passionate (or, at least, shows it more) than Phoenix. Phoenix, on the other hand, is better at bluffing and tends to keep is "temper" under control more often. I even think their sense of humor is different in some ways. But, again, that's just me. XP

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Personally, if the game hadn't actually told me that he was Phoenix, I wouldn't even have recognized him.

I agree with icer on this one. I'm noticing as I replay the first three games that GS4 really leaves them with a bad aftertaste and makes them difficult to enjoy, to the point where I wish I hadn't played the fourth game at all. For all the damage that it's done to the fandom, and for the shadow that it casts over the first three games, GS4 just isn't good enough to be worth it. :/

The damage is done, but GS5 could fix some of it. Apollo has potential, if the writers will just give him a little screentime that's actually his. Phoenix has his victory, even if it took seven years and some perspective-changing to get there; give him some closure. Whether or not you think GS4 was a train wreck, there's still plenty of room for Phoenix fans and Apollo fans to remain optimistic.

As far as we know, Capcom hasn't ever worked on more than one Ace Attorney game at a time, and right now they're experimenting with Edgeworth. Once his game has been out for a while, I'm sure we'll hear something then.

We don't even know yet that there is a GS5 team - only that no one has accounted for what Takumi and Nuri have been doing since GS4 came out. It's possible they're working on GS5 with Matsukawa and aren't allowed to talk about it yet for fear of stealing Edgeworth's thunder, or that it's being developed at a much slower pace thanks to resources being diverted. Game companies think a lot about the right time to divulge info about a new game; timing is very important. We won't know for sure what the story is until they think the time is right.



In the blog Takumi said that including Phoenix in GS4 was a prerequisite from the very beginning, before Apollo existed as a character. There was never a version of GS4 that existed without Phoenix, from a development perspective. If they made GS4 with a far-reaching plot in mind, it would have to include Phoenix.

The reason I don't want to see the things you've suggested happen (specifically Phoenix getting his badge back) is because I don't consider Hobohodo an "injustice" to his character in the first place. Obviously the creator didn't either, since he created Phoenix. I see it as a natural progression of his character given what we know of his circumstances. His original designer said years ago she always thought of him as lazy when he wasn't on a case, and that if not in a suit he looked best in a hoodie. The way Phoenix acts in GS4 is pretty much the way I've always pictured he'd act when not on a case, though Hobo has a much sharper edge to him. I like him how he is. I don't want to see him be a lawyer if it means rolling back his personality and pretending those 7 years didn't happen.

But then, you mean just the fact that he lost his job, honestly I think it's a worse injustice to his character to say that he'll never be as good as he was just because he's no longer in a specific profession. I would like to see him happily employed of course, but Apollo is served better by not having Phoenix as competition. The police are dumb, but are they dumb enough to provide twice as many innocent defendants as usual? Because if Phoenix has his own firm and is as successful as his skill says he ought to be, either the police have to take a divebomb or you'd have to assume he's suddenly decided to take on guilty clients, which I'm not sure anyone would be very happy with either.

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But the problem isn't Phoenix's character. I like his hobo persona. It's the havoc they wreaked on his life and everything he worked for that I don't like. And he's written like his trilogy may as well have never even happened. Would there seriously be any difference between what we see in Hobohodo in the game if they had just taken him after 1-1 and instead of having the action of the 3 games, just said 'Phoenix was a great lawyer for 3 years'? Not really. It's like they took everything he did and achieved those 3 years away along with his badge. Exactly the type of things they should never have been able to take from him.


I never said anything like 'he'll never be as good as he was.' It's not that Phoenix is now 'inferior', it's the injustice the writers did on his life so he could be brought back 'not as a lawyer' was unfair. The entire way they treated his character was unfair. It was like a betrayal, since that was not originally his intended ending and the success of Phoenix was the reason the writers were able to even make game 4.


Wow, not many crimes happen in AA Land, I suppose. I'm sure there is able to be more than one defense attorney in the district. If Mia had lived, both she and Phoenix would have taken cases. Besides, maybe Apollo can open Justice and Co. in the next district, which still shares the same Udgey-filled court.

They had some ideas about GS4 in the works before they had to include Phoenix - there's a lot of foreshadowing the themes in 1-5 so they were already at least thinking about GS4 when they were making 1-5.

The one thing that pissed me off the most about Apollo Justice is how Phoenix lost his badge in the game (now this I learned through spoliers).

That kills his entire character from one, two, and maybe even three. This makes you think, "Now why would Phoenix even fight against people like the Von Karmas and Edgeworth to show them justice if he was going to . It's ridiculous nonsense. I would've rather seen Phoenix be more like the Phoenix in the Axel Trugh fangame than the Phoenix in Apollo Justice. With this one thing, they ruin his entire character, and the past three games.

Baloo, you're doing it again: writing your opinions based on very skewed information. For instance, you've got a very crucial fact completely WRONG in your latest post:



I suggest you step away from this topic entirely until you've actually played the game, kay?

Anyway, after all this time I think I'm finally starting to understand where you're coming from, icer (until now you had me completely bamboozled ). What you object to isn't that you don't like Hobo Phoenix, nor that his behavior seems so strange, but rather that the events of the past three games don't seem to have had any impact on what he is now: only the events that we LEARN about in AJ have any affect on him, so it seems to you like everything else was thrown out with the bathwater, correct?

Well, I think that it really just comes with the territory of trying to make a game about a new hero. Apollo doesn't know or care about the whole of Phoenix's career or the people he interacted with, so there wasn't a good way to put all that in there. And I don't really see how they're gonna fix it. I mean, I suppose a few references to his past experiences when it would fit in with whatever Apollo's doing would be appropriate, but I don't know if that would satisfy what you want.

Personally, I'm adamant that whatever his role is, he must not become a lawyer again or be playable again. Even 4-4's 3rd section went too far in that respect. I want Apollo Apollo Apollo. I wouldn't mind Maya or Pearl showing up again, and interacting with Phoenix a bit, but only if they're involved in a case. Heck, what's one more Fey case, huh? I think that would be appropriate - to Apollo they'd just be people involved in another case of his, nothing more, but we'd get to see them and Phoenix, and see that his past isn't gone or forgotten. Would that be satisfactory? *shrug*

Personally Regy I don't even think they can afford to bring the Fey's back for one more turn. Phoenix dominated the first AJ game on his own...if you add in his own sidekicks...even for only one case. Thats one case that's been wasted by not introducing brand new characters. If we brought Maya or Pearl back seriously people would be wanting more, they'd see it as a sign maybe Nick's folk ARE coming back. Next we'd have Gumshoe working on one of the cases, maybe even Edgeworth prosecutes against Apollo. With the next AJ game I don't think they can afford to give any ground away to the old PW crew. I don't want to see Nick killed off (going the same way as his own mentor) but the only way he works as a character is because he's so utterly different from his old self. Hell first time I played AJ I didn't recognise him for a good bit. I don't think we can allow the Fey's back into it. AJ needs new characters. and less Ema

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*cough cough*
Objection!

Baloo, I suggest you read this spoiler re. 'guilt' of Phoenix:




I think he should at least get to state his personal opinion, though judging on other people's perspectives having not played the game is a bit of a stretch. But there are quite a lot of people like him who hated even the idea of the disbarring so much they never played. Personally, hey, I wanted to like the game. I even played it twice before I let myself form an opinion...



That's part of the problem. I have various other issues [one of which is, it was simply unfair to treat that character like that, Phoenix is the reason the writers had their success with the series in the first place, and their original creative vision was to leave him at the much more positive ending of 3-5. So wreaking that level of havoc injustice on his life on a whimish afterthought (not even the original plans for the character) is kind of like an arrogant betrayal, especially just 2 months after 3-5. ] But it is like his entire trilogy was erased, everything he worked for and achieved and even his friends along with it. This is even worse than him simply being disbarred or not being a lawyer again.


So you people won't even let him be a lawyer, not have a case onscreen, and then disappear off forever?


Depends how they handle it. I don't want Maya on trial again (how much should the poor thing go through and it would be clutching at straws?) but I supposed Pearl would be okay.


So you people admit these are much more compelling characters who overshadow the new cast? This is why I always call for Apollo and Phoenix to split. For example, a separate 'bonus' type case for Phoenix after the Apollo ones, or Phoenix appearing in a spinoff etc. and Apollo and Phoenix not involving each other in any detailed way in each others' cases. Maybe the result of a case giving them one piece of evidence they pass on or something, none of this doing parts for them etc.

It's not a waste if you get resolution. People would be a lot more open to trying to settle with the new chars if they hadn't wreaked such injustice on the old and not resolved it. I mean, it's cliche that any 'Series X: The New Generation' only features vague references to distant and remote shallow stereotypes of the old cast's main chars, but there usually isn't any idiotic ploy in the 'new series' to somehow destroy the entire past series and all the characters' achievements and relationships as if it never even happened. The only way games 1-3 are still fun to play... is if you temporarily forget that game 4 ever happened, otherwise you know it's all kind of futile. And... I really can't see why this kind of thing was useful, in terms or either plot or marketing.

Last edited by icer on Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Any way, I don't see why bringing back Gumshoe, Herr Blondie. He is a cop after all and really wouldn't have to be connected to Phoenix at all. I'm sure he has to work on some cases now that Phoenix is gone... But that could just be because I really really hate Ema...

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The ace is beside the point. I was refuting Baloo's claim that he actually forged the evidence that got him disbarred.

Ah whatever. I give up on this topic. I simply don't think there's anything wrong with what they did with Phoenix in AJ so there's not much more I can say.

Well, it seems I was wrong again in WHY he lost his badge (I really need to play this game) but the fact that he does forges evidence kills his character from the past three games almost entirely, especially in AA and JFA. It was the ruin of a great character.

Yeah, I am in the process of getting Apollo Justice and playing it, it's just a matter of finding a copy of the game, since almost no game store anywhere has it to be bought at any price...

Indeed. In the same way Peter Parker is still Peter, despite Joe Quesada crapping all over his morals and history- He's the same character, he's just trapped under a near-impenetrable fog of idiotic writing and mandates. GS4 is to Phoenix what One More Day was to Peter Parker- Massive character derailment, in the worst way, for the sake of accomplishing something entirely unnecessary. In One More Day, the unnecessary accomplishment was erasing Spidey's marriage for the sole reason that Joe Quesada hates Mary Jane. (Yes, he's outright STATED that.) In GS4, the unnecessary accomplishment was disbarring Phoenix for the sole reason of forcing in Apollo. In both cases, the best solution would be a simple retcon erasing the character damage. But, I have a feeling Capcom's going to be self-righteous jerks like the management at Marvel have been and act as if it's all okay. Personally, if a full-fledged retcon is out of the question, I'd like to see HoboNick himself avert the timeline of AJAA- Go back and over the course of 4 cases, befriend his past self, convince him to not take the case that had the forged evidence, or even better, have Phoenix help his younger self better the timeline that will come, and then HoboNick fades from existance, redeemed, telling his younger self to remember to come back and do this, or it will all be undone.


I think the Star Wars fanbase would like to have a word with you on that subject... After a marathon viewing of the Prequel Trilogy. Not even the unadulterated fun that were the Lego Star Wars games were worth that.

...That would be awesome. I wonder what the odds are that they'll actually do this? Maybe GS5 will have multiple endings, and this could be one of them?

@FirexxxSaber: Yeah Gumshoe was relevant there...though to be fair that was one case where you played as Phoenix...you'd expect Phoenix-related characters to be there, Gumshoe was just a constant, he HAD to be there.
P.S. I hate Ema too...she's become such a b***h since she grew up, and she'll be obese on those snackoo's before long.

@Icey: I'm not sure I did mean more compelling, I prefer Trucy to Maya after all I think I was meaning that if they did give way to, say the Fey's, it'd be a sign of compromise and compromise only leads to more compromise. The fans would sense that Nick is getting his sidekicks back and then demand, Edgey back...then if they get Edgey back they may demand Fransiska or Gumshoe and so on until it's Apollo doing trials in Phoenix's world.

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With ya.
Nick will always be Nick.
And....Actually I like hobo as much as I did the lawyer one...
Maybe even a bit more. His my kinda character.
Then again...I like Moe too and allmost everyone else hate him...
What's wrong with my character taste?

Maybe Apollo hasn't Nicks charm and skills...but it means: NOT YET...
People! If you think Apollo lacks some skills try playing the first game again.
(I did it, once again, lately and Nick actually was soooooo greenhorn in that one)
Give Apollo some time like you did with Nick. He will have his glory someday.

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I think it's probably too late for a ret-con, (although with all that MASON System weird precedents and 'Miracle Never Happen' endings, it could be strangely plotted) but it seems that a segment of Apollo fans are very opposed to any kind of rectification for Phoenix. And rectification seems to be the most reasonable thing and I'm still not sure why people are opposed to it. I mean, when it really comes down to it, all we basically want is proper evidence the trilogy actually existed in GS4's surreal version of reality and wasn't all in vain. All the people insisting Phoenix die in the next game seems to just be another side of the same problem coin. I agree with your assessment that it was for the sake of accomplishing something entirely unnecessary - there was no point to Phoenix going through all this, except that they decided he had to be in the game and weren't smart enough to think up a slightly better capacity for him to be in the game

RobbieValiant, I suggest you know the spoiler re. Phoenix and forging evidence in my post here. He hasn't been corrupted to the level you may be led to believe, however the writers cruelly do set the audience up to suspect him and put him on trial, as it were. [And I know nothing about Spider-Man but looking up the One More Day thing... wow I can't believe they did something that pathetic. (Selling his marriage to the devil?) People could write a great parody crossover with GS4...]

The problem isn't that Phoenix is corrupted (well, he's jaded and rule bending and treats Apollo like a pawn, but what do you expect?) it's the fact that they totally ruined his life and dignity from his intended canon ending of 3-5 and seem to have thrown away the entire events of games 1, 2 and 3 as if they may as well have never happened, with the sole exception of 1-5. [Oh, and game 4 is an ironic deconstruction of the themes of game 1.]

Going back to prevent? Problem is, there's only one tiny trial to prevent, it wouldn't take a whole game to do it. Heck, he could have even done the trial but stalled longer instead of presenting the evidence. No, the most useful thing now is to correct some of the injustice shown to Phoenix, let him get his life kind of back on track (preferably as a lawyer, because without extra writing we know he derived purpose and fulfillment from being a lawyer) to something slightly closer to his intended canon ending of 3-5, and at least give proper indication the trilogy happened by giving him meaningful interaction with Maya and Edgeworth. Because otherwise game 4 feels like a retcon of games 2 and 3, especially since they never released game 3 till ages after game 4 in many places.



I understand your fear that Phoenix Arc chars will take over what you hoped would be expansion on Apollo plots. That's why I always say have it as a totally separate bonus case or something... I'm afraid I think Phoenix and Apollo's involvement with each other only works in a limited amount till it gets damaging to both characters. The best I can see without them compromising each other is maybe giving the results or a piece of evidence from one case which they can use in another, somewhat related case. If Phoenix is not a lawyer.. I have trouble thinking of interactions which won't be detrimental to both of them. I seriously think Apollo would be more advantaged by Phoenix being a lawyer too, as it means he's less likely to meddle with Apollo's cases.

But trying to claim that they shouldn't bring back the older chars at all because it's 'compromise' to give what the fans want? Well, come on, the fans are the ones who buy the game and merchandise and spread hype! And if so many fans have 'problems' with the missing cast, maybe they should listen to them? Why should it be some all or nothing anyway? We just want proper indication that they still exist in the kind of capacity we would have expected if games 2 and 3 had actually happened in GS4 Universe. (Personally, the only character I think we really need to see or properly reference is Maya, and I would have said Edgeworth but GK may handle his situation re. Phoenix. Those two were essential to Phoenix's character, the others aren't really required in the new arc, reffing Pearl and maybe Larry would be okay, anything else is going too far.)

Games have listened to fans rabid outcries before, it destroyed FF7 by turning it into a series. Fans ain't always right, sure maybe it'd please them more and be more profitable but for Apollo's sake they can't relapse into just paying tributes to fans. I reckon with time we'll come to like the new characters we just gotta bide our time.

Furthermore I don't understand how Nick can't just stay a pianist and be like a permanent person on every case waiting at the Wright Anything Agency unless for plot reasons he goes somewhere else. You can like ask his opinion on something as an ex-lawyer and even maybe other scenarios.

Like
Ugh I keep watching this guy but my bracelets not saying anything yet I know he's lieing I've got the evidence I just need to hear him say it.
.....
I-Is something wrong Mr Wright?
I'm going to entrust you with something powerful, I used it in my cases consider it a...lie detector of sorts.

And thus Nick is useful in just one of many possible scenarios.

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