I know the whole game wouldn't be fixing it- my idea would be Young!Phoenix and Hobo!Phoenix, working together, while Young!Phoenix still has his own cases to work on, figuring out who planted it and exposing them. Thus, redemption and erasure of Hobo!Phoenix due to timeline alteration. Or maybe don't erase Hobo!Phoenix, just have him go back, and see how it's changed, and be alll "Awesome! We changed the future!" Kinda like Marty going back and seeing how awesome things are now that he intervened in his parents' lives at the end of Back to the Future... Hmm. I may file this away for future use... *eyes PWlib.*

Because he hates being a pianist, case 4-4 was proof enough of that, it also proved how much he misses being an attorney. For to develop a "sudden liking" to it in AA5 and beyond would make less sense then 4-3's plot.



No offense dude, but Phoenix wouldn't just give away the Magatama like that. It's a family heirloom that Maya gave him. That'd be like giving away your grandmother's priced vase that she entrusted you with.

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Correct, but it's not HIS family heirloom it was merely a tool for him to use after all he gave it to Edgey before. He's going to get it back no doubt, after all Apollo works for him so he can't just keep it and this way he can ensure he's a better lawyer by putting it to good use. It's not like he has to use it much anymore.

As for his hatred of piano playing....well maybe he can just stick around as Trucy's agent, she'll no doubt be pretty famous after inheriting Troupe Gramaryes repetoire. It doesn't matter what he does so long as he don't become an attorney again, that's too close to home, it's too easy to see Apollo getting incapacitated and then newly reinstated attorney Nick rises to the occasion and takes over like Edgey did in 3-5. Ending like that would just leave fans riling for Nick as the main attorney in GS6 (wow thinking ahead) and this whole Apollo VS Nick debate wouldn't be solved which would be a pain in the ass if we're still arguing then.

Point is...if Nick does become an attorney again...it's way to easy to have him take over for Apollo (though if he looked anything like Ceres' sprites of him then it might be totally worth it)

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That's the point, in my opinion. To be frank, "APOLLO!? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' APOLLO!"

Apollo's got his own weapon for fighting crime, let Phoenix keep his. If anything, I'd like to see if the braclet can be powered up to do more then just what it does now. If this is supposed to be a new series then let's see something new for Apollo.



Ouch. I guess since Apollo exists poor Phoenix isn't allowed to go on investigations to find out the truth anymore.



What's so bad about Phoenix briefly taking over for a case? Edgeworth played a playable role yes, but he didn't completely hog up the spotlight of the entire case, the story still focused on Phoenix.



I don't think anything the writers do will put a rest to the Phoenix vs Apollo arguments.



It's also easy to have it set up that Phoenix is simply too busy with his own cases to get involved with Apollo's. If that's your only paranoia about Phoenix getting his badge back I wouldn't worry.

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Wow lotta points lemme work this out....



The only thing the bracelet can is pick up if someone has a nervous twitch when lieing or unsure of something. It's not guaranteed for everyone, plus the only new thing they can do is make it usable outside of court, what we need is an ultimate attorney with the power to tell when someones lieing and unlock the secrets in their heart. I think it'd make for great gameplay. And what better way to pass the torch to Apollo than by passing on the tool of his trade, personally thinking about it this is something that should've been done at the end of AJ



Correct! Thats exactly right, considering most of what he did in AJ was investigate and he stole the limelight I think unless Apollo explicitly asks him to investigate something for a second opinion he should stick to managing the office, he caught his big nemesis after all, time to hang up the spy cam.



Thats true Edgeworth didn't hog the entire case, still Phoenix got one small trial in AJ and people are calling for him to take the bar exam again an take over for Apollo...a little goes a long way, whats the point in designing brand new hobo attorney sprites for one small part of a trial? It simply won't do if they do that, they'll have more in store.



Probably true still if Nick doesn't make an appearence as an attorney in AJ2 then it'll do a great deal towards stopping people demanding Nick returns.





Meh maybe I am paranoid still if Nick is that busy then he won't be doing much and thats not exactly what I'd like to see. It needs to be a delicate balance, where he's involved but not too involved, if he's the kinda person who your showing like all your evidence to and all he can say is "Meh I don't have time for that" I'd feel robbed.

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I don't see why people are complaining about feeling like AJ was a "bad end" to Phoenix's story. He ain't gone. His story hasn't completely ended yet.

And yes, Apollo is still in Phoenix's shadow, but it's only the first game. In the first PW game, Phoenix was similiarily reliant on Mia. But over time, he learned to stand on his own.

Also, I like the idea of Phoenix returning for a case as a Prosecutor. Pitting him against Apollo should be interesting, and it seems like the kind of thing he might do.

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I'm not sure it could be a whole game. But if you want to see how this changed scenario could play out just read this.


Apollo does not need Phoenix. Phoenix does not need Apollo. The sole reason Phoenix required Apollo was because the writers took away his badge. He then used Apollo as a tool to implement his strategy against Kristoph.

It can also be argued he was saving somewhat-oblivious Apollo from his insidious 'mentor' but this was partially coincidental, as was finding his family - anything in that areas would have been for Trucy's sake, not Apollo's.

With precedents like first Kristoph and then Phoenix, Apollo seems to be a character who gets co-opted to inadvertently carry out the agendas of others and just unquestioningly goes along with it. It was beneficial in some sense that he got experience working on cases, but I think he has to stop being Phoenix's pawn. This requires more distance in their professional lives, if Phoenix isn't a lawyer and still employs Apollo as subordinate, I can only see him continuing to interfere and manipulate. [This, I suppose, is why some Apollo fans want Phoenix to die.] If Phoenix is a lawyer, he has the relevant empowerment to act on issues himself, and could actually play a proper mentor role to Apollo without being forced to use him for his own agendas, since he can now act for Apollo's benefit rather than falling to the temptation to use him to do what he can no longer.,

Also, if he's a lawyer, Apollo can start his own law office if need be and even without extra writing and screentime we can assume Phoenix's life situation gives him more of the gratification he deserved, closer to his original canon ending of 3-5. The we could actually concentrate on Apollo, instead of seething over the injustice they wrought on Phoenix and his trilogy for no actually good reason whatsoever. Practically everything which happened with Phoenix and the 'disapperence' of his trilogy was pointless and detrimental to both Phoenix and Apollo.



Pianist? He HATES it. The game is littered with 'decisive evidence'. If he suddenly is claimed by the writers to start loving it for game 5, it's an even more serious discontinuity error than Edgeworth and Maya 'vanishing.' The whole piano and even poker is a transience, a means to an end. He even keeps telling everyone he can't play! It's like he takes every opportunity to not let the role of 'pianist' define him. And what he does want is clear, due to the fact that he's actually manipulating Apollo to enact it for him. It's unethical, but that's how deep his frustration obviously lies.

I can only see continued detriment to both characters if the situation remains similar to game 4. Some people seem to hope Phoenix will stick around hobo-ing because they want Apollo to somehow 'beat' Phoenix and assert his 'superiority'. (Beating an unfairly disbarred hobo with his wings clipped? I'm sooo impressed!) Do we really need any more insult and indignity heaped on Phoenix's character or more pitting them as rivals? The fact people even suggest this shows that in the medium-long term it's not a mutually beneficial partnership for either. It's nothing like the beneficial Mia-Phoenix partnership and can only degenerate and be seen by fans as a rivalry unless some distance is put between them. Some options seem to be something like this:





Okay, after everything Phoenix worked so hard for in his trilogy - you think he deserves to not have the 'right' to do anything? To not be 'allowed' to investigate anything? To never enact the principles which so motivated him? To not have the empowerment to do anything by legal means (lawyer badge etc) and in frustration resort to breaking rules and exploitation?


Magatama - That Magatama is Maya's and it was very important (remember Mia telling him it was important to her too and telling him to look after it?) I assume since he says it's his she officially gave it to him rather than 'lending' it, and no doubt he used it in his investigation for the last 7 years. Forcing him to give it up would be immensely CHEAP on the part of the writers, besides, he says it's one of his most prized possessions. It would have little meaning to Apollo. As for 'passing the torch', Phoenix has no torch to pass. The writers got rid of it, and pretend it never existed.

Phoenix vs Apollo is bad for the series, and that's what we'll keep getting unless they put distance between them and give them both proper justice.


That's right. I mean, because Apollo exists, Phoenix wasn't 'allowed' to be a lawyer for the last 7 years, or even have had any of the events of his trilogy be anything but futile and forgotten.

So the attitude of some Apollo fans seems to be they should take everything from Phoenix, throw away his trilogy like it never happened and then expect him to fade into the background and Apollo to 'usurp' him, without Phoenix getting any kind of method (eg. being a lawyer) to show that he might be doing something more tolerable to his fans than literally just 'fading away' after having lost everything. This is that 'Apollo vs Phoenix' rivalry thing which will never allow them to work like the complementary Phoenix-Mia.

But yeah, that does seem to be the attitude of that game. Their target market is the new player. For people who played the trilogy - hey, we'll force you to play since the marketing department decided we'd drag Phoenix into it, but guess what! Unlike just a not-quite-as-good second series which you can enjoy for what it is but maintain fond memories of the original arc as well, we'll get rid of the original arc! We'll write the new game as if everything that happened in the old trilogy (save 1-5) may as well have not existed! (And just for fun, to emphasise how futile it was, we'll make the game an ironic deconstruction of the themes of game 1 and 1-5.)
Guess you're not 'allowed' to like the old trilogy any more, and we'll make it so you can't. Because you're 'supposed' to be liking Apollo now! ('Instead', not 'as well'.)

And this is the attitude some Apollo fans seem to have. And it was like a surreal 'bad end' to the trilogy - even more so because of all that MASON System stuff, and the fact that so much of Phoenix's backstory had ceased to exist, and that the 'flashback' wasn't even properly IC. When I was playing the trilogy initially, I knew he'd end up a disbarred hobo probably before I finished game 1, certainly before the end of game 2 - but I assumed it wouldn't be nearly as bad as all the controversy. My verdict? Phoenix in game 4 = awesome, what they did to his life situation and trilogy = undeserved total injustice for absolutely no purpose. It advantaged nobody. They should have made an actual new series instead of forcibly destroying the old one, I don't see that it advantages anyone or is good for marketing.


And that's exactly why there are discussions like this. How they handle Phoenix next game is crucial - and could potentially be either the reparation of the series or the destruction of both Phoenix, Apollo and the series. (And surely the writers know this. Why else all the stalling on GS5?)

Ugh head hurts...but...must...retaliate....


I don't mean he can't investigate it's just that there's little reason for him to do so unless Apollo asks him to, he's cleared his name and put the person responsible behind bars and saved the life of an innocent girl at the same time, his trilogy's up I see no reason for him to need to investigate anything anymore unless of course he decided to go back into law but at the same time I can't help but feeling he was joking when he said he might sit the bar exam again...maybe it was the laughing that made me not take him seriously.

Furthermore considering the Pianist problem, he said in the end credits "Now that everythings sorted and I've got some time on my hands....maybe I'll take some lessons" referring to piano lessons suggesting maybe he didn't hate his pianist lifestyle, I don't recall him ever seeming too downhearted about his miserable job in a miserable bar at all in the game, plus it also suggests he might just stick with his job as a pianist and actually become a proper one. This is just as valid a piece of evidence that he'd stay a pianist than become a lawyer.

Also I never said he'd have to give up the magatama permanently, he could loan it like he did for Edgey, I for one am opposed to your suggestion of Apollo leaving Wright Anything agency, for one thing Trucy would never leave her daddy of seven years to work with this new guy and Apollo I just don't think could handle a business like that without an assistant so I envision Nick loaning him the magatama and taking it back when Apollo's finished his case, simple and hassle free.


I'm sure I'm missing something to counteract here but no doubt you'll call me on it right now I just want my headache to go away so I can think straight

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If that happened then I'd lose faith in the series.

I'll admit, I was sad over what happened to Phoenix (the kicker being that it was only a few months after T&T when they could have done it like a few years later or something) but something like that would be just plain idiotic from a writer's POV. 1. Time travel. I'm really not a big fan of this plot device except when done right and I don't see how this can make sense in the GS-verse. 2. Over-write. Everything that came of AJ becomes for nothing. Development would be scrapped too. 3. Feels like something out of a very bad hollywood movie.

For the record, I wouldn't want a game with Phoenix as the lead or as a major role. Lawyer or not, I'd leave that to the writers, but I'd really like to see more work put into Apollo because I think his story has potential. I'm actually pretty curious about Kristophe and those black psyho locks...

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Yes these bugged me too, I'm dieing to know if his secret was just unlocked without the use of psycho locks in court or is there more to it....Personally I don't think so I mean...after both his convictions hes' gotta be getting a death sentance.

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...That's the whole point, man. AJAA was a bad idea. Not Apollo himself- I can see him still existing in some form in the altered future, maybe even junior partner or something- but not as the protagonist. Apollo's fine if Capcom wants a spinoff series to make $$$ from, a la Megaman X/Zero/Etc., but when you have an Ace Attorney game, stick with the REAL thing- Phoenix Wright.

Last edited by RobbieValiant on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Phoenix laughing at the end was kind of like Vera and Machi smiling at the end (since he doesn't laugh elsewhere in the game and it's a regular 'defendant' thing.) He laughs over the irony of having to take the bar exam... again. ie. he's only a lawyer if he re-takes the exam after all that.

He hated being a pianist... see quotes (and there are probably even more).

If you're so desperate for the idea of Apollo having a magatama (Magatama ∞> Percieve) , why don't you just let Maya turn up and give him his own? It's a way for her to come back which relates to Apollo anyway. He only lent Edgeworth the Magatama because Edgeworth was literally going in his (and the player's) place, the defense attorney for day 1 of the trial when he couldn't be there.

Trucy was never Phoenix's legal assistant. She can still live with Phoenix, being his daughter doesn't mean working with him 24/7. Apollo is her brother anyway. She was with Apollo all that time Phoenix was away in the game.

On the 'going back and changing history' well yeah, it is a bit too far fetched. A ret-con would consist of calling it some AU, I expect, not getting rid of it. Personally, I think it's a bit too late and unreasonable to expect such a retcon now, so things should be patched up so we can move forward, like I wrote in my previous post.

I took the black psyche locks to be something like this - normal psyche locks appear when at some level the people have guilt or remorse over their secrets, that's why they're hiding them. Kristoph had no guilt or remorse, he only felt complete and total entitlement (pretty much thinks people deserve to get murdered if they get in his way) and so was only concealing his secrets out of spite. I don't think they'll handle them again, but hey, there's a reason to bring Maya back for a visit, isn't it?

Ok sure maybe he doesn't like being a pianist, opinions can change over time. Maybe the reason he disliked it is because he sucked at it, with lessons he could improve and maybe be good at it. Still don't see his suggestion as proof he'll take the bar-exam again or that he's not contented enough.

Also you seem hell-bent on bringing Maya back into it, but it's ludicrous! Besides Magatama's aint just something anyone can give out, Maya only had one and gave it to Nick who had Pearl charge it with power. Nick's Magatama is one of a kind right now, it takes preparation to make another with the same power. It'd make more sense to have Pearls show up and give Apollo hers but why would she? It's important to her. And despite Nick's attachment to the magatama I think if absolutely nessecary he'd loan it to Apollo in pursuit of justice. Besides I don't nessecarily think the magatama is better, the bracelet and magatama are complimentary of each other, for example the bracelet may find a twitch in Matt Engarde whereas the magatama could find nothing and if someone isn't twitching, is just inexplicably calm the magatama can help detect when they're hiding something and how close Apollo would be to finding it. They'd work together.

Meh ok I don't see Trucy leaving but I don't see Apollo as competent enough to start his own business...after all he went looking for another firm after he got put outta work with Kristoph no? I don't think he's got the business know how.

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He sucked because he didn't like it and didn't practice on purpose. He didn't like it. He had 7 years to change his opinion and he was proud that he could only play one song. A magic transformation to fulfilled concert pianist is inconceivable.

You expect them to make him seem super-unhappy in the credits? He seems to be in vague-mode (you know, where he doesn't tell Apollo the full story.) The writers didn't know (and probably still don't) his future so they made it deliberately ambiguous.

Yes. Which is why I think Apollo getting the Magatama (even to 'borrow') is ludicrous unless the Fey clan come back in some meaningful way. He doesn't deserve it. Phoenix only got one because he was saving Maya's life. Suggesting Apollo can use Maya and Pearl's power without them even existing in the arc is ludicrous.

We can pretend he got more mature in the time since the last game! Phoenix supposedly coped (with Maya's help no doubt.)

So the only "Ace Attorney" that can be is the one that uses the same old character over and over again? Guess that means you hate the idea of Perfect Prosecutor too. You say you don't have any problems with the character Apollo yourself but you have problems with the idea of a new game with new characters? What would have been better than? Reusing the same character and shoehorning in another story (because as several posters already pointed out, Phoenix has pretty much done EVERYTHING so far). Or, since the new game is supposedly a problem what you mean is it was a bad idea creating a new Ace Attorney game in the first place and that the series should never have been touched after the first three games.

The main thing about AJ is despite the several little irkings I got from it, it's a step forward. It can either to be the ultimately better decision or the worse decision but we won't know until we see how they take what they set up in that game to build something else (good or bad). Bottom line, an over-write isn't just going to make it all go away. All that's left is to see where it takes them if they want to return to Apollo's story (which is very likely).

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Ok sure magic transformations don't occur....thats why he'd take lessons and he could gradually become a better pianist you know? He could play Apollo's music in court. I'm surprised no customer has ever caught him playing the same song over and over in the restaurant.



Ambiguous yes....it could go either way, the only point I was making is I don't think he should become another lawyer ok?



What if Apollo needed it to save say....Trucy's life in a scenario similar to 2-4 she gets kidnapped or something and in the hunt to find the real criminal he is aware of the Gramayre secret and covers whatever reaction he has with something. Apollo knows in his gut the guy is hiding something but can't figure out what and the clock is ticking. Is it so improbable...that Nick wouldn't lend Apollo his secret weapon to save his adopted daughter's life? Or would Apollo need to send off for another magatama to the Fey clan? Truth be told the magatama isn't even linked that importantly to the Fey clan by JFA, by game two it's just a tool and there's very little mention of it being relevant to any plot other than to crack people's secrets.



We can't pretend anything, sure maybe with a little help he could run a business but the business Nick had was already there, there were financial plans already in place, Apollo would need all that and more he'd need to save up for a building while Nick takes his payment and pays him a salary considering he works for him.

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Way to use most of your post twisting my words.
I'm saying the main Ace Attorney series is about Phoenix Wright as a character. Period. Perfect Prosecutor is a spin-off, a side-game, the same way Megaman X began as a side-game to the original Megaman series. And I wouldn't call making a new story "shoehorning." As for your later comment about a new game- Yes, if they're going to keep Apollo, and keep Nick completely derailed, it would have been better to leave it on the high note of the third game, with dignity intact. The same way I believe it would have been better had George Lucas left Star Wars alone after ROTJ. Nothing else compares to the originals. The best you'll do is get a pale imitation of their good points, and at worst, you'll completely ruin the experience of them by diluting them with inferior follow-ups.

I cannot see how AJ is an inferior follow-up. I think that's the entire problem with it.

So you're saying instead of actully getting a job he would geniunely like, he should force himself to like a deadbeat job like that?



Okay, wait, think about what you just said; Trucy's life in a scenario similar to 2-4 she gets kidnapped or something. Do you really think Phoenix is going to just sit in the background and let Apollo do all the work, or would he actully get up and try to help save his daughter's life? If anything, that scenario sounds more like a good excuse to make Phoenix playable again.



Why not? You like to pretend he enjoys being a piantist instead of a lawyer.



DarkWobbuffet says YES.

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But why? Phoenix has never aspired to be a pianist, if he'd wanted to he would have at least learned to tolerate it better in the 7 years. It's a stupid direction for his character particularly when he so obviously hates it. 7 years was more than enough to be sure that he has no feelings for it. I hope 'play Apollo's music in court' was a joke?

You won't let Phoenix be a lawyer or let Maya return but you expect Apollo to be able to exploit something completely originating and completely tied to the old arc? That's Fey spiritual power there, and thinking Apollo can just use it without the strings attached (the whole Fey clan plot) is pathetic. Let him use his own dumb bracelet. Maybe he can learn to use it better to detect nervous habits in investigation.

He only GETS it in JFA 2-2 and it's a big deal. In game 3 it's not just a tool, when Armstrong steals it Maya gets upset and reminds Phoenix that it's hers and she's lending it to him. Apollo should not get to exploit Fey power when Feys don't even exist in his arc! Besides, won't the 'new players' be too confused about this magatama which keeps turning up? It was too scary to mention old chars by name, so they'd surely asphyxiate on that one hinging on the whole plot.

We pretend the entire games. The next game will probably be a year later so I'm sure we can assume Apollo could get that done in a year. He must have got money from defending Vera and Thalassa is filthy rich (if she bothers to care about Apollo).


Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression some Apollo fans want Phoenix put to pasture in a degrading way.... so Apollo can 'eclipse' him, perhaps.


Sorry, I didn't quite understand that - did you maybe mean, the fact that it was not a plausible follow up to the trilogy because it was so unlikely and none of the old characters other than Phoenix appeared to exist?


Apollo Justice should have been an actually separate arc. Phoenix's series should not have been touched. If Phoenix was to appear, it should have been a cameo which did not interfere with such magnitude with what we saw in games 1-3. The writers originally didn't want to bring Phoenix back so this did go against their original creative vision for his character.

He obviously hopes for a retcon to enact this status in hindsight. I think it's too late and we now have to patch up the new arc as a more believable follow-up of 1-3, but he's entitled to his opinion. If they don't patch it up sufficiently, they've effectively destroyed the perfectly good original series, (since it may as well have never existed in the surreal game 4 world) unless people choose to see it as an AU.

*sigh*



Are you saying Mozart and accomplished Pianists are stuck in deadbeat jobs? No with lessons maybe Nick could become something plus...while it's highly unlikely for all we know the ONE song he can play could be incredibly difficult and require a lot of talent and he's simply not tried others.



That was just an example, it might not nessecarily be that situation but why does it need to be Phoenix who leaps into action? He could just help Apollo rather than become playable, it makes no sense to make him playable, at worst, don't lend Apollo the magatama and accompany him as a sidekick to use it's powers if he's so absolutely attached to them.


Because nothing is confirmed, and I never said that, I said that maybe since he's considering taking lessons he might be changing his opinion to them. Hold you chocobo's before you get all Godoty on me.

Curse you Icer...now I need to make a whole other post to deal with your objections.

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No. People like Mozart would have had some actual affinity with the piano. They probably totally love it from the moment they first played. 7 years is more than enough time to establish Phoenix does not have significant aptitude or enjoyment and is not a potential Mozart. He'd never achieve higher than mediocrity, which isn't exactly very fulfilling for him, is it? And are you going to boot out poor Machi?

But the magatama user has to be playable because it's they who see the locks and must have their brain manipulated by us to present the means to break them. Or is Phoenix going to give Apollo a running commentary of his mind's eye and mental processes?

So, I'm curious, out of you Apollo fans (or at least the ones which are here) how many want Phoenix hanging around Apollo not as a lawyer and why, and how many just want him to leave and why? (Both appear to be motivated by Apollo getting spotlight and Phoenix not, right? Do people hope to emphasize demotion by having non-lawyer deadbeat job Phoenix hang around Apollo??? I'm interested...)

Yah it was a joke I was in a light mood last night, now I'm just tired.
Anyway the last 7 years he was annoyed because he had the wrong accusations hanging over his head but ok ok I've thought of a better angle at this to keep Nick outta the courts and still in the games.
He could play poker professionally, he's extremely good at it no? It's a proper skill a proper job hell there's shows just about it on TV and there's no evidence to show he didn't like that.



I won't let Nick be a lawyer or Maya return significantly because thats regression. That was just an example because I'm not imaginative enough to think an original one. Essentially your zeal for the feys to be present bores me, if the Fey's were brought back it would be a crippling blow for Apollo's era, too much regression to the old ways, I was just hoping that by combining both the elements it'd be fine and there'd be a new ultimate lawyer with multiple powers, besides it'd be the new players fault if they were confused for not playing at the start of the saga with Apollo Justice 1, it was introduced then at the end so it's their own fault for not playing it in canonical order, confusion is bound to happen with anything when it's not done in order I don't consider it that much of a problem if newbies struggle with the concept of the magatama cause it's already been introduced. Besides I'm sure Nick could explain it a little.



If GS has taught us anything it's that lawyers barely get paid, look at Nick! He never was that rich you know and he won lotsa cases, even then while I do like the thought of Thalassa meeting up with her children ( I like the thought of xThallassa as a parental pairing) the ending of AJ implied that she wouldn't reveal herself to them for a while as Nick says he'll take care of them until she's ready.


Upon noticing Icer replied again:

Thats pretty cruel we cannot know what Nick's potential in piano skill is he's never really tried before. Don't cut him down the first time he shows an actual interest and trying. I'm strongly against the thought that someone cannot become someone else and are limited that much from gifts at birth. I believe Nick if he really tried he could accomplish something with the piano with proper training. Also what's Machi got to do with anything.

Also with my suggestion of Nick as a sidekick-style person just briefly or something he could switch in and crack the locks then tell Apollo about it simple.

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Poker - He only won for 7 years because he used Trucy to cheat. What's he going to do when he can't use her in big matches any more? Professional ones would be a lot stricter in checking that kind of thing. Poker seemed to be a way to find Zak more than anything, yet another means to an end (since he was desperate enough to actually cheat at it. Fake piano player, cheats at poker, [forged evidence..]) you can see Phoenix's 'jobs' are not something with place in his desirable future.

Machi is a genuine pianist. If there's only room in the GS world for one lawyer, there's definitely only room for one pianist. And Thalassa was supposedly like Machi's mother so supposedly he won't be booted away forever.

The magatama is part of the Fey thing. By insisting it has to be present, you're implying that the 'new' arc has to revert to the 'old' ways and can't come up with anything decent new.

The whole reason I want Maya to return or be properly mentioned is so that the new arc kind of is vaguely conceivable given what we see of Phoenix in game 1-3. Her virtual non-existence in game 4 was an irreconcilable plot-hole for Phoenix's character. It's not because it's supposed to be Fey Clan Arc II.

Phoenix didn't get paid. Grossburg did. Mia made a fair bit of money, 1-2 (I think) says. Apollo starts lusting after TVs and $$$ in 4-3. I think he could motivate himself to more financial success than Phoenix, enough to start a small practice.


Okay. However it seems you dismiss some elements of the old arc fundamental to Phoenix's continued believable characterisation as 'regression', yet for some reason you don't see others, like Apollo miraculously being able to use the Magatama, as such? And how can you justify that Apollo can suddenly get to be some 'ultimate attorney' not through skill, hard work or helping others, but by suddenly co-opting Maya's magatama when for all intents and purposes she has ceased to exist in this arc?

Anyway, your reasoning seems to be along the lines of this: You don't care what job Phoenix has, so long as it has no relation to law or even investigation. But there's a problem with this. [As we've seen, he doesn't need an 'investigation' job to investigate crimes.] If Trucy or someone else he knew was in trouble, Phoenix would be out investigating (NOT sidekicking Apollo) and the lack of legal career would not be stopping him. Thus, you'd need yet more plot points to dump him in the hospital again and it starts getting ridiculous.

Notice even in game 4, even after the disbarring, they still had to invent some additional drastic event to avoid him taking over every case? 4-1 Phoenix does everything except wear the badge, 4-2 he's in hospital, 4-3 Phoenix is absent only because his own law related jurist project absorbs him, 4-4 Phoenix does virtually everything except wear the badge.

If there were innocent people in mortal danger, particularly ones he knows, and Phoenix was still 'advising' Apollo, he would not hit the 'snooze button' and go back to his retirement job of mediocrity. Suggesting he'd suddenly find fulfillment in it isn't just poor characterisation in general, but a complete inconsistency of everything we see of his character in game 4. And even if he suddenly becomes Mozart II, that would never eclipse his motivations to personally try to solve cases if his friends or family were in danger [and this will happen.] He's never going to be content to sit back and dazedly 'mentor' in these situations. This also goes against what we saw of his character in the 4th game.

Question: Do you insist on Phoenix hanging around, or would you not mind if he 'leaves'?

The best compromise in terms of their characters seems to be for Phoenix to be a lawyer off-screen (if he is not a lawyer, then there is no reasonable method to prevent him from doing Apollo's cases again! If he is a lawyer it means he can have appropriate focus on his own, not Apollo's cases) in a practice separate to Apollo (since otherwise we'd demand to see Phoenix's cases.)

Having some bonus case where Phoenix is a lawyer and shown to be 're'-involved with Maya and Edgeworth is not 'regression back to Phoenix arc' but an actual method non-insulting to both characters to actually 'pass the torch' of main character to Apollo. Because Phoenix, not Apollo, is the main character of game 4, and people will only ever see Apollo as inferior to Phoenix if the only reason he succeeds him was invoking ridiculous levels of injustice on Phoenix's life and career.

Don't be ridiculous, he never cheated in poker, reading body language and calling bluffs are what it's all about besides he only had Trucy there for big games, sure he would be playing in big games but theres no guarantee he'd be bad at it I mean he made do without Trucy for many games he's quite clearly learned to play quite well and read his opponent well.

Also again I don't see what Machi has to do with this and thats just stupid logic, there's already been two lawyers in GS4 (Kristoph and Apollo?) it's not some weird world with only one person for each job.

While I'd like to see the Magatama brought in and insist that we can utilise it as merely a tool without having to bring the whole Fey thing into the new era I guess I can't dissuade you. I never thought, when I used the Magatama beyond case 2-2, about the Fey's once when I used the magatama, it was just a tool to bring the truth to light to me. Also I don't consider it a plothole that she isn't with Phoenix, plotholes are solid facts that something is wrong, you can't prove that Maya desperately wanted to be there. They both have different lives now they don't need to be together at ALL times so be nice.



Ok I suppose your probably right about somethings, it's best if the Magatama isn't brought back into it, I see that even including it in GS4 was a mistake of sorts. Personally I enjoyed Nick being back but I suppose yea Nick would leap into action which is something I don't think they can do again especially since how they handled his playable segment in GS4 bred debates like this.

As for him being unable to mentor...I beg to differ especially since he seems so mature and in control in GS4 I believe he's perfect "dazedly" mentoring Apollo and looking after Trucy. I don't see why he can't stay in the series as a father figure to trucy and a mentor to Apollo.



I insist on Nick staying around but I don't see any how that is a compromise, you say make him a lawyer off screen but then you insist on a bonus case where he's playable. The fact he was playable in GS4 is what caused this problem anyway you cannot claim to want him to be detached but then make him playable! To me it sounds like a desperate plea to bring Maya back, Edgeworth doesn't need to reappear again, he's getting his own game I like cameos sure but bringing folk back as new sprites with actual roles is too much it's pointless, it'd just increase demand for Phoenix again to be the main lawyer.

Personally I think Nick is more respectful and cooler now he's a hobo, so I'd rather not see him disgraced, I like his new role as 'almighty hobo' he seems so much more....calmer and organised you know. I think if you put him in a courtroom now we'd be beating a dead horse effectively.


P.S. As my last Post of the new year, Happy new year

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Well then, you can see why Phoenix can again be a lawyer even if Apollo is one! I'm just commenting on the opinion that people think Phoenix can't be a lawyer for some reason, because Apollo is one. And Kristoph obviously stopped lawyering after case 1. If Phoenix was a famous pianist, why would there be any place for Machi in the game? (Not that I even liked Machi but it's sad to think that his 'mother figure' Thalassa would have to abandon him.. again.) But this is irrelevant.


But it's written like she didn't exist and the other games never happened. It would have been okay her not being there, if they'd had a more decent reference to her. At the end of 3-5 (which is less than 2 months before the 'flashback trial' she not only says she'll keep being his assistant but that she's going to keep looking after him. That means she would help him and at least turn up if he was on trial for murder like in 4-1. We are given no reasonable explanation (or any explanation at all) why this has vanished. We would expect her to be there in that kind of situation, and her absence is unreasonable and given no explanation.

The difference between playable Phoenix in 4-4 and having playable Phoenix in a bonus case.. is that 4-4 was the big final case of the game and even though Apollo was nominally the lawyer Phoenix did everything. If they were separated Phoenix could be playable in his own case without compromising Apollo's cases and the problem with 4-4 and Phoenix really doing everything would not exist.

This is a compromise because Phoenix is gone/virtually gone from the game except for the bonus case, so Apollo can do cases himself without Phoenix taking over the spotlight.

Why exactly do you want Phoenix to continue to just hang around, but not to do anything meaningful, investigate or be a lawyer? It seems kind of pointless. It's not a mutually beneficial relationship like Mia-Phoenix. And unlike Mia, Phoenix is not dead... though you seem to want to kill off everything in him which motivated him in not only the first 3 but also the 4th game.

I thought I'd attempt to answer this. ^^;;

For me, Phoenix is a complicated issue, to say the least. I am a huge Apollo fan, though, and at least want to have Apollo "in the spotlight" to learn more about him, and to see his talents grow "legitimately" (ie - without too much manipulation help from Phoenix, Trucy & Co.).

In some respects, I do not like what they did to Phoenix--not at all. In some ways, I think Phoenix's actual character is still there, but the events that he was placed in was not very fair to him at all. That being said, I'd like Phoenix to be able to get something back, especially after everything he had to go through in those seven years. I always thought the Jurist System was a way for him to get back into law. Jurists can still be biased or corrupted by bribes, and I think Phoenix's passion for the right kind of law would aid him in keeping the Jurist System running smoothly and cleanly, especially through the selection process. I mean, the system was sort of his pet project, right? Why not stay with it.

BUT, if there's ever a point that Phoenix would no longer be needed to keep the Jurist System running...then I don't care what Capcom decides to do with him. It has been mentioned in some way before that Phoenix really isn't the "main character" any more. I think the Jurist System was a way to redeem what had been lost to Phoenix during those grueling seven years (nevermind getting the real criminal convicted through some amazing hard work on Phoenix's part). Phoenix doesn't have to be a deadbeat anymore--he can get a job in law.

So...basically, I don't care what Capcom does to him, but there are more choices than "be a lawyer" or "be a deadbeat."

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Correct it is irrelavent but I would like to point out it was you who said you brought up the idea of a universe with one-role per person not me.

Regarding the Maya abscence problem.....there's a perfectly logical reason why she wasn't there, I thought this up before somewhere else I'm sure.
Note that in 4-1 you never leave the courthouse...restricted to the defendants lobby and the courtroom, now in past instances only people associated with the case or law profession are allowed into these areas see? Maya is not a witness or in anyway connected to the case so she would not be allowed to talk to Phoenix on screen. HOWEVER it's perfectly plausible she was in the crowd cheering them on or even met up with Phoenix after the trial therefore it's perfectly plausible that she was present there, just since the story is told from Apollo's viewpoint he wouldn't have seen or nessecarily cared about Maya, she's just another person to him.

Plus I consider the fact that an old friend of Nick's dropped a bunch of Steel Samurai and related spin off DVD's at his room in such a vast amount would show she did care for him and that it would be Maya sending them. I thought it was an obvious reference and it brought a smile to my face, a cameo done just right, not a plothole problem or a flaw.

As for what you said about the other games not happening, it's completely NOT written like this very blatantly because Ema is there, a definate past link and Gumshoe and that too. Besides most of the game is from Apollo's viewpoint and he probably has little idea what has went on in the past games seeing as he'll have been training then. The script was fine in my opinion and it gave the past games the respect they deserve I felt.



Ok so lets say they have the big final case....then the bonus case....the last case will always be written to try and surpass the prior case so what's to suggest that the bonus case won't overshadow Apollo's entire story, after all there are many people who think Case 1-5 is the best in that game, surpassing 1-4 and case 1-5 was completely from scratch requiring no other cases to make sense of it. Furthermore case 1-5 WAS a bonus case, a special for the DS remake not included in GS1 on GBA. We need to lose the whole Phoenix-superiority attitude and look at them more as equals or partners even. If there was a bonus case there's every chance it'd encourage the Phoenix era back. I just want to see Apollo have a chance.

As for why I want Nick to hang around, I think he can do meaningful things besides being a lawyer and investigating, as Ninjangel cleverly said, he's effectively in charge of the jurist system so he can still be connected by law and with all his years experience I fail to see how he could be an unsuccessful mentor to Apollo.

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So not correct.

God, it's not a family heirloom. Maya gave it to Nick not just for the memories, she didn't know Nick would have to quit law, so she thought "This Magatame will be much more useful for Nick, so I'll give it to him. Let it be a HUGE help in his carreer and life."
IT'S NOT A GODDAMN VASE. HECK, IT'S THE DREAM OF A LAWYER: KNOWING IF YOUR CLIENT IS GUILTY OR NOT! Please, what lawyer would say no to a free-useful-secret (since not a lot of people would believe in such things as mystical lying detectors) device that practically solves the case for you!

And if Nick wants to be Apollo's mentor, why not? "I have a lot of law experience, and I think I don't need any more. I'll pass my knowledge on to my protegeé, along with my help. If I ever regret it, I'll say 'Sorry, you're not ready for it yet', and take it away from him. Also, that way I'll get more money from the "Not Guilty"s my employee gets! Heck yeah!"

How does that sound?

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Anyway, IMO, GS5 will be Apollo-ish, BUT (=lifesaver), as a closing of the Gyakuten Siaban series. Maybe resolving misteries about:


1 · Apollo's father and his death (Phoenix's never even got mentioned per se. Maybe Apollo's was the fourth Gramarye.)
2 · What actually happened with the Kurain tradition (this would be more as a fanservice, since GS3-5 ended quite fine. Perfectly, I would say)
3 · Why Ema ACTUALLY came back from Europe.
4 · Maybe: What was Drew Misham's real ambition with Phoenix. I mean, just watching him in a case not losing his cool after losing his badge and suddenly start painting his employee's cases? Come on.
5 · What will happen with Apollo and his newest family: Will Phoenix take care of Apollo and Trucy alongside Thalassa? May sound too, er, "typical", but could be cool, if it's let to the fans' imagination via hints. (This could lead to point 1)
6 · Not very possible: How Phoenix and Kristoph met.
7 · Why Darian left his hair with that lenght and shape (this turns the game into PG-18, or MA, how you call it.)

So there. Gyakuten Saiban 5 could very well be a flashback game, an April Fools joke turned into a game (I mean, completely unrelated cast and lulz that are not funny for anyone but the developers) or a normal game starring Apollo and closing the Gyakuten Saiban series, but tying all loose ends (except some canon, left for Gyakuten Kenji, which will most probably at least get 2 games), which are the listed above and maybe more.

That was a lot of typing.

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Yes, but I was pointing out the same attitude the game writers seem to have ('Apollo is a lawyer so Phoenix can't be and we have to make up some totally unlikely disbarring fiasco') and various Apollo fans seem to continue. However, maybe you don't, so moving on...

But there's no evidence in the game that she even exists at all (sans a few DVDs later). Maya is not here. Everything we ever saw of her character makes us expect her to be present in a situation like this. No explanation is given. You, must yourself, with great difficulty, use your imagination to make up some scenario to fill the writers' hole. There is no actual evidence to support whatever imaginary theory you make up provided by the writers. We could just as easily make up some other bizzare theory as to why she's not shown and it would be just as 'true' really, since there is no indication or evidence whatsoever. The fact that you managed to think of some possibly-plausible explanation to fill the plothole for yourself does not eliminate the fact that the writers' writing left a plothole.

This proves Maya is alive (she 'keeps sending them', we don't get proof she saw him) and just make her absence from the rest of the action an even worse plothole, (since it eliminates random possible things like she died or is lost after being kidnapped or silenced by Kristoph.) Though we were able to discern this was Maya, a lot of fans didn't and don't even believe me even after I show them that article where the writers proved it. The default assumption (a possible majority?) seems to make, based on everything shown in the game, is that for some strange reason Phoenix has not seen neither Maya nor Edgeworth for the last 7 years. (If you don't believe me, just observe the completely insane amount of fanfics written to this premise.) This, of course, is an unbelievable proposition given what we saw in 3-5 - but the game is written like 3-5 didn't happen, so we're basing it on that canon, not the backstory the GS4 writers were working to when they wrote Phoenix's character.

It gets ridiculous. For example, the whole disbarring thing. Edgeworth would not have believed Phoenix forged evidence, or at least have given him the benefit of the doubt. In 3-5 we get the precedent that even though he's overseas, Edgeworth can still pull massive strings back in AA City - he gets a trial with a judge and prosecutor of his own choosing, and seemed to be able to override Godot! Just 2 months later, being a huge influence over the prosecutor department, if the disbarring happened, Edgeworth could have at least invoked an inquiry or something into investigating the forged evidence - which would have brought the truth to light, way before 7 years were up. You can invent strange reasons as to why not (did somebody notice him pretending to be a defense attorney and get him fired?) but these are based on pure imagination, not any kind of evidence.


Ema is not a character of the original trilogy, only of the hybrid 1-5. This is very important. 1-5 was a kind of pilot for GS4 (and a lot better than the actual GS4, mind you), and written later by the new writers. Yes, it, and it alone, is taken into account in terms of plot and characterisation. (Having to continually restate this obvious fact about the hybrid '1.5 arc' case gets tedious.)

Apollo had his 'chance'. The kind of devastation they wreaked on Phoenix to give it to him was insane, they more than unfairly 'evened' the playing field. As I've said before, I'd say put Phoenix in a spin-off like GK2, if one even existed, to avoid Apollo having 'his' own games derailed. That would allow them to be equals.

1-5 did not override 1-4. It felt like (and was, and was written as) a kind of separate game. Most people think 1-4 is th best case only eclipsed later by 3-5. People who think 1-5 is better only do so because they specifically liked elements of 1-5 over 1-4 (personal taste, would have been the same if they played it in a different order, excepting the plot confusion.) 1-5 was unique in that it was written later, there's no reason why this 'bonus case' has to be written to 'overshadow' 5-4.

But you didn't say 'I want Phoenix to have a fulfilling job in law reform.' You want him hanging around playing the piano or (failing that) poker. Also, I don't' think he's 'in change' of the jurist system at all. It's a relatively lowly job which seemed to consist of running the test trial. How he even got the position is yet another plothole, but there's no actual indication it's ongoing or he'll manage jurists in future for actual trials. (And considering the manipulation he even stacked on the jury... hmmm). I have no idea how, if at all, they're going to handle the jury in future games (Maybe there won't even be one?) so i don't know what Phoenix is supposed to do. And was he a good mentor to Apollo in game 4?

No, that is so not correct. If Maya only gave it to him when she thought he wouldn't quit law, then why did she not take it back after he was disbarred? Before he was only 'borrowing' it, now it seems to be 'his' possession. Maya obviously wants and intended him to keep using it even if he's not a lawyer. Phoenix hasn't magically acquired the means to see lies and concealments on people's hearts by himself! Besides, you people complain ad infinitum about bringing any element of the old arc back, except for this particular one you expect Apollo to magically acquire. He has his own bracelet and powers, that was the point for the new arc. And the new is always better and we are supposed to forget the old arc right? It's Apollo's Perceive Turn Now!

4 is a good point. I hope it was for a reason and not just some stupid reason to get to uncover paint.

Ok I need to see things from your perspective. In my opinion my reasoning why Maya wasn't visible in the trial is sound. And I was satisfied with her delivering the DVD's in a nice lighthearted reference. But it's not about what I think really....so why don't YOU tell me what you think would qualify as what should have been in detail....should they have gone so far as to sprite her into the series even for a brief 2-second slot to say "You totally need to check the latest episode of Pink Princess! I left it on your bed, get well soon!" or do you have something else in mind?



What possible evidence is there to suggest Kristoph even met Maya much less kill or kidnap her, thats just ludicrous.
Also Apollo Justice was designed so that it would appeal to new players, so people wouldn't need to know the previous backstory to old characters, of course they'd be confused about that reference they might not have even played the old games so they'd never even hear of Maya and don't need to she's not mportant in the story. And Edgeworth is getting Gyakutan Kenji which I'm pretty sure will cover his escapades after T+T which may very well reveal what he did, it would be pointless to waste what may be a major plot point in GK by talking about what he's been doing in AJ.



Granted, 1-5 is better than most GS4 and also granted before GS4 it was considered non-canonical but the fact that Ema has been mentioned as being involved in a previous case with Nick in a canonical game, AJ, this changes the status of 1-5 to canonical it does count.



So are you suggesting they should hold back when writing this bonus case so it would not be it's best? That's just trying to sabotage Phoenix, something you would most definately not want, it would be doing exactly what you dislike, sabotaging Nick to make Apollo seem bigger. Point is, personal opinion plays a large role in all of these but all final cases have to make a large impression so unless they were deliberately trying to write poorly to make it not as dramatic then it has very chance that it may surpass Apollo's climactic case.



He struck me as a fine mentor to Apollo teaching him it was important to get the right person and not the "Not Guilty" verdict like Kristoph wanted in 4-1. Plus I'm aware I said I didn't want him to have a fufilling law job I don't see it as entirely nessecary besides the most likely one he'd get is a job as a lawyer again which you know I'm against. Plus if he got the Jurist system started I think thats pretty important. It's been debated the Judge's patience bar (your life bar) is interchangeable with the Jury's patience bar, plus they can't go back on the Jurist system otherwise it'd be like everything Kristoph ranted about in the end of 4-4 was right and everything Apollo AND Nick had worked for was for nothing degrading both of them which none of us want.

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^*sigh* we seem to be straying off on tangents here (The original topic seemed to be 'Why do people keep insisting Phoenix is playable next game or is made a lawyer again?')

Your reasoning is sound to compensate for the writers' plothole. However, it does not mean that the plothole itself does not exist. How many other people would easily arrive at the same conclusion? Is there any evidence at all in game 4 to support it? When you played the game did you actually think 'Maya is in the audience possibly with Trucy'? And Trucy manages to get into the defendant's lobby so people would be even less likely to automatically assume 'Maya is there but isn't allowed to appear because she's not allowed in here.'

Okay, let's examine the entire atmosphere the game evokes around Phoenix's character. Pretend you were a 'new player' with no knowledge of games 1-3. Would you ever get the impression he has close friends or indeed, virtually anyone in the world other than Trucy? (The sole exception is Ema, who is not from the 'original' arc, but Arc 1.5 - and even she doesn't seem to know who Trucy is when they meet, suggesting that they can't have had any kind of close association at least pre- 4-2.) Every piece of evidence just points to him being all alone - his one 'friend' was only some mass murderer he was secretly investigating. Nobody's going to assume he's off with his friends when he's off-screen - on the contrary, based on given evidence, new players probably imagine he's off exploiting people and forging stuff, when not drunk on grape juice.

When Phoenix has disappeared off who knows where, Trucy doesn't know where he is, and gets upset when Apollo jokes he might have 'disappeared' too, thus I think she really doesn't know where he is. He could be meeting with Maya/Edgeworth in strict secrecy... but I think if he was going off to some close friend he might have mentioned it to Trucy?

Phoenix [to Kristoph]: ...Because I remembered your kindness back when everyone had turned on me.

[Twisted ironic parallel with Edgeworth, anyone? Ouch.]

In fact, the whole game is just kind of surreal. Is there any kind of meaningful evidence or feeling evoked that game 2 and 3 even happened? And on the 1-5 characters, it's like some weird nightmare Phoenix and Ema woke into [no wonder Ema is so pissed about events 9 years later, she suddenly comes back and it's nothing like how we'd expect.]

It's the entire atmosphere of the game and the sum total of how the game portrays Phoenix and his relationships (or lack of) which is at fault. I'm not going through 4-1 again and trying to invent some specific reference line to Maya to patch it up - 4-4 is more obvious though, in the flashback trial he could have merely expressed the unfortunateness that his 'assistant' couldn't get back at such short notice or something, instead of just acting like she doesn't exist. (Did you mean what I wanted in the whole game or just 4-1?)

Maya and Kristoph - If he has been Phoenix's 'friend' for the last 7 years (and they 'met' regularly), and he has associated with Maya, they might, by extension, know of each others' existence? Phoenix would probably limit anything he reveals to Kristoph about Maya to protect her, but following on from games 1-3, it's reasonable to expect that Phoenix might share something about his 'investigation' with Maya or Edgeworth in the hope of solving it?

Precedents? The entire first 3 games. If Maya knew that Kristoph had ruined Phoenix, she'd be mad at him. She'd want to help out Phoenix any way she can, just like she always does even as early as game 1. Kristoph, being a mass-murderer who kills people seemingly because they significantly inconvenience him...

It's not a likely occurrence, but it's just as likely as the fact that his friends have 'disappeared', and there is little to no evidence to the contrary. I have seen various people decide that the game was a future in which Maya and/or Edgeworth died, and it really does explain a lot about his characterisation. ie. that's how badly the game is written in relation to the previous games, in that there's little to mark it as not plausible. All that's needed is to remove the DVD reference and no adjustment is needed re. Edgeworth.

That's not a valid argument, GK was only conceived in hindsight, many years after GS4, hopefully it will patch up Edgeworth's inexplicable absence or mention in helping out Phoenix, maybe it won't. My argument with Edgeworth still stands.

Are you going to deny that it's practically insane to expect that the justice department would suddenly employ some disgraced disbarred hobo to run an important jurist trial- they still think he forged evidence and is banned from even being a lawyer, remember? This is a major, major plothole bordering on ridiculous - mentioning Edgeworth's involvement would have made sense, not just have been gratuitous fanservice.

And if the 'new players' don't know who Edgeworth or Maya are, too bad - a brief reference isn't going to kill them (Phoenix *gasp* has friends! And by that logic, it must have been wayyy too confusing to have all those references to 1-5. Ema? *heart attack!*) Don't we want them to play the old games too? Just means 3 times as much money!

It's canon. However, 1-5 is literally Arc 1.5. And it's the only backstory of Phoenix's which gets taken into account. Rest is just 'Phoenix was a lawyer black box'. You could play 1-5 and then 4 without playing the other games and that would indeed cover the entire story of Hobohodo.

I think you know that's not what I was suggesting. Playing 1-5 after 1-4 did not in any way detract from 1-4 or overshadow it. But I'm getting the feeling that you refuse to allow Phoenix to have even a bonus case because the fact that it is Phoenix risks overshadowing Apollo's 4 cases. Well, too bad? We play the game for great cases and if Phoenix's token case is somehow better than Apollo's it's only enriched our play experience. 4th cases usually have the benefit of being built up to by supporting cases 1 and to a lesser extent 2 and 3, hence their epicness, bonus cases don't have this benefit so overshadowing the main plot is less likely.

Was he good for Apollo in that circumstance? Yes. Was he a good 'mentor'? No way. He did some nice things for Apollo incidentally (waking him up over Kristoph, reuniting him with his sister, giving him some legal experience) but aside from this he was pretty much just a bastard towards Apollo, not a mentor, and most interactions with Apollo were things with payoff for Phoenix himself, and Apollo only incidentally.

Exploiting him, paying him in pudding, tricking him into presenting forged evidence, putting him down, not offering any kind of meaningful advice on cases 2 and 3 and instead of helping Apollo in case 1 and 4, just basically doing it for him (and in the case of 4-4, forcing him to take the trial, not even giving him a choice.), not trusting him by revealing anything to him except when he has no choice.... Their relationship is a difficult and not entirely positive one. Now he's got experience, found his sister and is more aware of people like Kristoph, I think the best step for Apollo is to get away and stop letting Phoenix exploit him. I don't think it's useful to him in the long term re. career. Mentors give advice and encouragement to help people solve cases themselves, not do it for them, and I didn't get the impression that Phoenix respected Apollo in the slightest, or even liked having to use him, it was just that he couldn't do it himself and wished he could, hence his poor treatment of him.

I think it would've been better for Apollo Justice if there'd been as few references to the PW trilogy as possible. Sometimes you're better off not knowing what happened next. However, since Phoenix did make it in, you can't exactly blame people for wanting/expecting him to be playable (or at least reclaim his attorney's badge) in the next game.

I don't necessarily want him to be playable at any point (although I wouldn't object to it), but having him back as an attorney and acting as Apollo's boss and mentor would be satisfactory.

I believe that making Phoenix a character in AP was like dangling him in front of the people who want to play as him and thus got their hopes up that he would be a playable character again.

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I don't want Nick to be a lawyer again, but I would be grumpy if he stayed where he was. As I said before, I don't think his stint with the jurist service was a one-off affair; I wouldn't be surpised if that case gave hi, a fairly high-up position in the legal system. Good hours, good pay (I mean, how else could Trucy get that allowance in advance :D), time to jet off to see the Feys or Edgey. Stuff like that. I'd be way happy with that, and it'd allow him to pop in every so often (Something like 4-2 or 4-3 levels of appearence, maybe).

But not many people'll go for that idea for some reason, not that I understand why (But hey, I'm not exactly good at understanding other fans XD)

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Phoenix Wright is to GS as the Starship Enterprise is to Star Trek- INTEGRAL. Yes, you can have good works without it, but the MAJOR stuff, the CORE of the franchise, is ALWAYS the adventures of the Starship Enterprise and its intrepid crew. Kirk continued his adventures on celluloid even as Picard sailed the small screen. DS9, an okay spin-off with no Enterprise, ran concurrently as the REAL Star Trek story, TNG went on, in TV and then in film, as did the other non-Enterprise entry, Voyager. My point is this... Without the Enterprise or members of its crew, it's not Star Trek. The same goes for Phoenix and the GS series, IMHO. And THAT is where the problem lies. It's like if the people making Star Trek had opted to just kill off/debilitate the Enterprise-D crew for no good reason and start Deep Space 9 as new episodes of Star Trek The Next Generation. It wouldn't work, because it WASN'T TNG. Now, if they'd handled Phoenix correctly, it would have been fine, a gem, like when Scotty cameoed in the TNG episode "Relics"- a love letter to the TOS fans, while still satisfying the TNG fans.

You point became meaningless after you inferred that DS9 was not real Star Trek. Any arguments to the contrary will be met by my personal bazooka. You have been warned.

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You take a day or two away from the forums and folk flood back *sigh* well lets see then...



Hmm thats a fair point, Trucy shouldn't have been there. Guess my reasoning isn't as sound as I thought. Still I got the impression she had just snuck in as if Trucy was passing forged evidence to Apollo, this is something no guard or lawman would allow. It's illegal evidence Apollo was possibly blinded by wanting for it to be the real card but if someone else had been there and seen it then they would have to take it off him or at least see if it was approved so I don't think the room was monitored then but still why would Maya go in there? Phoenix isn't in there, only some rookie lawyer defending him, when Trucy entered Phoenix and Kristoph were away in the judges office a private place that Maya might not even be able to locate. I don't consider it a plothole so I don't see it as needing to be filled I consider this a problem exclusive to you and serious Maya fans but my theory holds some water as it suggests Maya couldn't possibly be present hence why she didn't make and appearence.

And People are extremely unlikely to assume Maya would be there at all, we all knew in advance the hero of this game would be Apollo Justice and we expected a brand new cast Maya should be the last thing on people's minds except you foolishly seem to think of Nick totally dependant on Maya unable of existing around her, may I remind you that in 3-5 very little time is actually spent with Maya as Nick's sidekick? She does not HAVE to be beside Nick. I'm willing to bet that Maya was not even considered so that people would not be outraged but my explanation is for people like you who demand she breaks the law by busting into the courtroom to glomp Nick and be with him embaressing him in front of the entire court. My theory provides a reason why she couldn't make an appearence but may see Nick offscreen.

Furthermore regarding her decision to manage Wright and Co Law offices at the end of T+T.....that business kinda broke up when Nick lost his badge I'd say thats a good reason for her to be unable to stay with Nick especially when she's also having to work in Kurain village. In addition, Nick is a very changed person from when we knew him in T+T, maybe Maya didn't like the changes and decided it wasn't worth sticking around with a bum who drinks grape juice all the time and focus on her own career.

As for the atmosphere around Phoenix, I can't pretend as my opinion is biased by an extensive knowledge of his friendships and past, but I consider the evidence doesn't point to him having no friends. Eldoon is a friend for one thing and I got the impression Shadi and him shared a kind of friendship even if he tried to cheat. In addition I'm conducting a survey to see what 'new players' think of Phoenix so we'll see but...

Thanks for the quote


Surely....SURELY this suggests that all of Nick's friends turned against him, frankly I thought Maya would stand by him in this instance but the fact she wasn't in 4-4 suggests she wasn't present at the time and so maybe didn't hear it straight from him also knowing Edgeworth's hatred of forged evidence (because of what it did to his reputation) and love of Justice would hate Phoenix for it, Franziska might be in the same basket, Larry was more of an on and off friend and while appearing in a lot of his cases didn't show up to hang about like Maya did. Gumshoe would strike me as sympathising with him and refusing to believe it, I can imagine him conducting an investigation into whether he did forge evidence or not but the evidence would point to one thing, Kristoph ensured of that and so he'd have to turn on him as well.



Firstly there's nothing to suggest Maya has been friends with Nick the past 7 years and so have associated with Kristoph thats a massive coincidence your utilising especially based on the quote saying everyone had turned on him. Secondly Nick only knew Kristoph had set him up during the present of 4-4 when he was already in jail, before that he had just gotten Apollo to put Kristoph away to punish him for killing Shadi (thus ensuring Justice is served) and so that he could reunite Apollo with Trucy. He'd have no reason to protect Maya from Kristoph he was a kind friend before that, and in consultation about Edgey references it's suggested that he was the powerful friend who helped set up the Jurist system so it is possible that he shared his investigation with him only a possibility though.



Impossible, the fact that Kristoph had ruined Phoenix was only discovered late in AJ, she'd have no reason to be present in the game due to rage at Kristoph since its a hidden secret for most of the game.

As for the suggestion they died? Thats laughable really...it is. And also anything is possible if you remove the other factors, but the DVD reference is there and the potential for Edgeworth being referenced later as well.




What you said right there at the end....'Edgeworth's involvement would have made sense' so why do you assume he didn't have some involvement? Let's face it what you said there is true, the law system thinks he's a disgraced disbarred hobo so they wouldn't listen to any suggestion of his even if it cured cancer, but Edgeworth is the one exception the old friend who may have helped it, it's widely believed he helped him set it up. Furthermore, Nick says the Jurist system is an improvement derived from foreign systems, when Edgey returns in 3-5 he comments how in his studies of other legal systems their current one could evolve a lot from foreign systems. This definately suggests Edgeworth was involved as for starters Phoenix was only continuing Edgey's idea in 3-5 and also Edgeworth would be the only one who'd listen to Phoenix.

And there were brief references to the characters but when you are planning a brand new take on a series you don't need to pile them in, besides Nick was playable! PLAYABLE! Thats like a demo of the old cases, they even let you try out his Magatama once or twice it's plenty advertisement for the old games, I don't see your point by saying 'Too bad' Edgeworth and Maya weren't mentioned by name in AJ so they won't lose any sleep wondering about it.



So? I had to look back to find out what your point was, your complaining that it's written as if the other games didn't happen, I ask you why does it need to be covered in extensive details, it's a brand new series it doesn't need to summon up a detailed report on Phoenix's past exploits the game isn't intentionally about him it's about Apollo who wouldn't need to know about those, it confirms Maya exists and that GS1 was canon. Your acting like it's PW4 and not Apollo Justice 1 we don't need to know about Phoenix's past cases as much, maybe a little minor interest in GS1 because Ema was brought back, but the rest is not important especially since Apollo will be making his own legacy now.



Correct thats not what your suggesting! I'm twisting your words so you realise the error of your ways, and the reason 1-5 did not overshadow 1-4 is because it was the same attorney. Back then it only added to his awesomeness, if let's say hypothetically in GS5-5(bonus case) is regarded as a better end to the series then GS5-4 (Actual end) then people will demand more Phoenix as a lawyer and there will be more incentive to bring him back and thus crush Apollo into the dirt again. This problem can be avoided completely if Nick doesn't get his old job back.



How do we know he pays him in pudding? Theres no evidence, and the presenting forged evidence and putting him down was all to make sure he came out stronger. It's tough love, he's teaching him life isn't that nice and you have to deal with that as thats what he believes (lets face it Nick being screwed over so royally affected him alot). Everything Nick did he believed was important for Apollo, plus Nick said he'd look after Apollo and Trucy and I think your underestimating what a nice gesture reuniting long lost brothers and sisters is, that makes him a good guy by a long shot. You say he has experience, family and is aware of evils like Kristoph, none of this he'd really have without Nick's intervention! He rescued him from Kristoph, if he'd continued under Kristoph he might have became a better manipulater of people and even turned to forging evidence occasionally, Kristoph would ease him into it until Apollo became a little evil lawyer. Thanks to Nick's extreme intervention Apollo has developed a hatred of forged evidence and thus by realising Kristoph's evil actions when Nick lost his badge he has distanced himself further from his style of defending and more towards Phoenix's old style of defending.

This is fun!

---

Phoenix kept appearing in the Defendant Lobby (he's the defendant!) You can imagine anything you like to fill the holes, but if there's no basis to support it shown in the actual games as implying evidence, then there is nothing to argue it as valid. I could just as easily make an outrageous claim that Phoenix lives on Mars and is a shapeshifter, returning to Mars when he's not on-screen, and it would be just as valid, since there's nothing to either hint for or against either of our theories. Assumptions you make have to have some sort of supporting hint or precedent in the games, and the only evidence that we got hints that the previous 3 games (sans 1-5) and relations to characters from it ceased to exist, somehow erased from reality at the start of the Flashback Trial. Because the character's absence and the lack of mention of them, violates every precedent we had of their behaviour in the first 3 games.


Practically everyone wonders where Maya is. Look right now - two REPEAT topics on the GS4 board posted by people decrying the issue - and it's ages since release. The only people who don't wonder where she is are people who actively hated her. You didn't like her, but a lot of fans did.

Of course 'Maya was never even considered'. I have repeated ad infinitum the game is written as a reality where she and Edgeworth simply don't exist, save a few token Easter Eggs (much like an Easter Egg cameo from a char of a different games series by the same company.) This would have been okay IF they had not returned Phoenix in any capacity. But returning him in such a way as they did, literally, in writing, in that the sum total of the actions, events and relationships of the previous 3 games have ceased to exist is unreasonable.

Let's pretend, I don't know, you were fired from your job. Can we expect that suddenly, even that very same day, your connections with every friend and family member (even ones you would die for, or even put yourself through law school for) would suddenly disappear? Or that everything you had done for the last 3 years, no matter how significant, would cease to have any real bearing or significance on your future?

Come on! Anything would have worked! Even just one line like:
Trucy: Daddy, you're off(screen) so often, I missed you.
Phoenix: Don't worry Trucy, I've been working with some FRIENDS on my 'secret mission'.

See? From that one line, we could have extrapolated to ourselves that maybe he saw old chars when he's off-screen. There's evidence! They don't have to be specifically 'mentioned' to 'confuse' new players. But we don't even get this! All the evidence just points to him being alone, a character with no meaningful connections even to undefined characters.

The biggest failure is this: even if the old chars were not being returned to the games, there should have been proper implying to indicate that when we don't see Phoenix he has meaningful levels of interaction with Unarticulated in this arc Friend Character X.

Instead, we just get repeated contrary evidence that Phoenix is totally alone, save Trucy. Being 'disbarred' is NOT an adequate explanation for this as it violates every precedent we saw in games 1-3.

Sure that's a possibility - but what's the point of destroying such a close friendship from the original trilogy for no reason whatsoever, a completely pointless retrospect? Did it create an epic plot or any plot at all? Did it make money? Did it please fans? Did it help Apollo? Did it contribute to cases? Did it achieve anything useful at all? And since this is not actually explained or hinted to either (it's Maya doesn't exist, not Maya has left, since she 'didn't exist' in flashback either and she would not have got fed up and left then) we fall back on 3-5 as precedent, to which her absence is contradictory.

Didn't 'Shadi' only even turn up again that one time after 7 years? That's not friendship. And 'Shadi' wanted to ruin Phoenix. That's a strange idea of 'friendship'.

How many of the 'new players' here would not be at least aware of the other games though? Especially in a forum like this one. However, at least it's an interesting topic... might be more productive at a more general games forum.

It would to new players. There are other quotes but I'm not going to comb the script all night :/

You think she wouldn't believe him when he did tell her about it though? Edgeworth isn't naive enough to think that there isn't endemic corruption in the legal system and the games establish there's mutual trust and respect, I think he'd believe Phoenix if he said he was set up. Phoenix didn't abandon Edgeworth after Edgeworth presented forged evidence or in 1-4 so I'm sure Edgeworth would return the favour and believe his word over Klavier.

Wasn't based on the quote. 'Nothing to prove' just proves my point of the problem. Maya Has Ceased To Exist = Inexplicable. Ah, but in our Easter Egg, if they aren't friends, why is he watching the DVDs? Why is there a 4th Samurai series from after the ones in game 3? Why is he writing reports? (I get it. Phoenix likes to go on 'grape juice' hallucinations and 'fingerprint powder' trips in which he pretends Maya is still with him, and really sends himself the DVDs.)


Kristoph: "Even from the beginning, you suspected me..."

Oh come on. It was not some fluffy friendship for 6 of the 7 years. Well yeah, there's another 'theory' some people like to throw around: Phoenix/Kristoph, in a literal relationship sense, either Phoenix whoring himself out to get the truth or genuinely deluded, at the expense of his other relationships. I didn't invent it, and I really don't want to see it.... And why has he been running round with that spy camera pre 4-1?



Hidden from dumb Apollo. Phoenix reveals next to nothing to Apollo (easier to manipulate him, I guess) but there's nothing to say he couldn't be a closer confidant to other characters such as Maya, even Trucy gets to know way more than Apollo so it's very precedented. You just voided your own argument about how we only know from Apollo's perspective etc.


I don't quite see the point of what we're arguing here... I already said the DVD scene implies Maya is alive (so why argue over a moot point), but let's pretend momentarily the DVD scene wasn't Maya:

The entire precedent of the first 3 games has been Maya helping Phoenix investigate cases. Even if she's no longer officially Legal Assistant, Maya would be outraged somebody (whoever they were) set up Phoenix to destroy him and eager to help the investigation into the truth to clear his name, just as she has always done in the past.

You can't deny this is a reasonable assumption based on games 1-3? And in those games, she consistently gets Phoenix the vital evidence, often at great personal risk and danger. Another precedent continually set.

And thirdly, (aside from the DVD scene, which we are pretending is eliminated) she does not appear to exist any more, therefore maybe she is indeed no longer alive - eliminated, unable to help Phoenix (since this would explain why she isn't.) Maybe she yet again found the vital evidence at great personal risk - so let's see Kristophs' precedents presented in-game. Why look! He murders people who might expose him like Drew, [attempted] Vera, Zak[?] etc. Perhaps he coudl have eliminated Maya when she found something threatened to expose him?

This reasoning is perfectly supportable. It's a theory, but not a deniable one, supported by the canon of both arcs - except, of course, that the DVD scene DOES exist, and therefore, as I originally said, the otherwise-plausible theory is ruled out.

That's my point! The decision of never implying the old characters exist is carried out to the point of UTTER RIDICULOUSNESS, it would not be fanservice or pandering to allude to Edgeworth here, it would quickly fill an utterly ridiculous plot failure with virtually no effort, yet the writers are so set on implying the old arc has somehow disappeared (expect Phoenix) they don't reference him, even indirectly, even in this blatantly worthwhile case. It makes as much non-sense to the NEW players not to mention Edgeworth here, and yet they're so set on advancing this depressing state of affairs that the old chars no longer exist to bear on the plot that they don't.

Um, you mean the writers won't lose sleep? A lot of fans missed Maya, Edgeworth, and the fact that Phoenix had, you know, close friendships with them? And the fans are the ones who buy games, pay money, spread hype and make success for the writers. If fans are too unhappy, the writers will lose sleep because people will quit the series.

It's not AJ1. It's GS4. It's the SAME series. If it was indeed AJ1 (GS-the second series!) then Phoenix would have not returned or only for a small cameo with limited impact on the previous series.

Backstory of Phoenix Wright GS4:
Phoenix was a lawyer for 3 years. Anything which happened in those 3 years is functionally irrelevant. Any connection or relationships to other characters have also functionally ceased to exist. The sole exception is one case (1-5) where Phoenix saved Ema from some trouble, and she is still grateful for it and respects him. Other characters or events from his past do not play a role in Phoenix's life, even as unspecified friends implied off-screen.
Oh, and his mentor had a plant, but not a name. So I guess we know he had a mentor. But she can't have been a very good one because he just acted like an OOC arrogant prick and made a stupid mistake bordering on insanity the moment she left him.

This should have been adjusted. It should have been IMPLIED that Phoenix has connections to other, unspecified characters off-screen who are FRIENDS/'associates', who help him with his 'secret missions' and such. So easy and would have made his character so much more believable as a possible follow-up to 1-3. Because his friends would have helped him out.

The rest is important because they brought Phoenix back. Therefore, because Phoenix is there in a major way, believable characterisation for Phoenix is REQUIRED for the games to meet any minimum standard of decency. In game 1-3 Phoenix was shown as a character who revolved around his friends, even before he was a lawyer, and disbarring is not going to remove that character facet OR his past. That's why some people claim it's an AU, that it isn't really Phoenix.. they can't reconcile this poor characterisation with the char in 1-3 because it's not written as a believable follow-up.


So your sole argument against this idea is:

"Some people might like a token case tacked onto the end featuring Phoenix better than 4 whole cases and their far greater opportunity to build up an epic plot. NOBODY should ever be 'allowed' to like something featuring Phoenix better than something featuring Apollo, therefore, Phoenix isn't 'allowed' to have a case, because some fans might *heaven forbid* like it!"

Yeah, but nothing you said actually countered any point I made. I said it had short-term benefits to Apollo, but this is not a functional 'mentor' relationship.

You're right. Trucy even ate his pudding.
Apollo:...Try not to eat my share, will you?

Apollo: Um... I was wondering when I get paid?
[...]
Phoenix:
I'd be happy to help with anything not involving money.

Phoenix is a lovely guy. However, his entire attitude to Apollo isn't very nice or positive, I think he has difficulty being around him. It hurts not to be a lawyer and to have degenerated to exploiting Apollo by necessity. It's only decency that he'd pay some kind of attention to watching out for Trucy's BROTHER, given what he knows and since Thalassa is so uncaring she seems to want little to do with him. Wanting to take reasonable attention to Apollo's welfare is totally different to wanting to be a 'mentor' to him in a legal career sense. It is plain Phoenix does NOT, and probably resents having to use him.

As I said, the mentoring in game 4 had SHORT TERM benefit for both of them, but in the medium-long term I can only see more negatives than positives for BOTH characters in any attempted 'mentor' relationship. It's not like Phoenix-Mia and it never can be. And it never will be, if they continue with their policy of 'differentiating' things in this arc. Meh, okay, Phoenix sticking around as a 'mentor' logically points to a degeneration and MAJOR messy falling-out. Is this useful to the series? Some people actually like this idea and even suggest it, but I bet a lot of other people would hate it - and it would carry 'Phoenix vs Apollo' to eternity. Further dividing the fanbase is ridiculous for the franchise.

Yeah, but I'm not sure we're getting anywhere, arguing every little point isn't getting much closer to 'solving' the 'problem' (not that we can 'solve' it but, the fanbase has various 'issues' and..) *sigh* I fear we're straying OT and this is getting unproductive

And I also have a reply to Gerkuman!... later (this is too long)