So, this is a lot like godzilla timelines now actually, with everything branching off from the first game/movie:
_______________________________________>GS2 BAD END
_______________________________________/
___________________________________>GS2 -GS3- GK?
__________________________________/
Yomigaeru Gyakuten(GS1-1 ->1-4, + 1-5)
___________________________________\
____________________________________> GS4- GK?

I don`t think its unreasonable to say that 1-5 fits in both timelines. Whether phoenix is referenced or not in GK will determine its place in the timeline.


EDIT: Icer, you've really thought this out. Do you want to post all you've said in a new topic in the GS4 forum, where we can get more people's input(since this forum is more low-traffic)?

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Christ icer. You say so much, but back it up with so little. WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE OF ALL OF THIS? STOP MAKING UP NEW THEROIES AND PROPERLY SUPPORT YOUR OLD ONES WITH PROPER, CLEAR EVIDENCE. NOTHING YOU SAID CAN REALLY BE PROVEN. The notice had a few things, but no where did it say alieniating 2 and 3. PROVE WHAT YOU SAY.

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Um.. what exactly didn`t he back up? Can you tell me what he said without proper evidence?

IMO, this discussion is really worth its own topic. One should really be made in the GS4 forum.

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*sigh* you always get me when I should really be asleep.

The entirety of game 4 and all the problems people have with it is proof. You don't prove anything you say and you never have any evidence or reasoning to rebut my pages of explicitly reasoned and supported argument other than 'it's not true because it isn't.' Which of the massive list of 'inconsistencies' and 'problems' various people have with the game and plot can't be accounted (simultaneously, mind you) for by this concept? (Hey, even the bad writing in cases like 4-3 could conceivably have been because there was a belated demand to insert more 'easter eggs' to pretend it 'might' have happened after 3-5 and they ran out of time. I did get the feeling that they maybe ran out of dev time about halfway through that case, when it plummeted into 'worst case ever' territory.)

You never provide anything to support your claim that it isn't completely plausible.

I'd better not relate my alternate 'theory' of GS4 to avoid offense.


Hmm.. I'm not sure if the mods would want it in that forum. [Hey.. Mods...?] Or the 'Defendant Lobby'. Also, I think most of the people still frequenting the GS4 forum are ones who loved the game and see no problem with it with regards to, say, the ret-con of all the games 2 and 3 character development (and associated 'missing' chars), or even Phoenix 'taking over' the game to the detriment of Apollo's development. So they will merely get out their pitchforks and scream IT'S APOLLO'S TURN NOW oblivious to the fact that this undeclared officially but conceptual AU is the very reason anybody ever questions this and the mistake why it is not Apollo's turn now like it could have been. I certainly don't mind, but they did after all lock all the threads which showed any kind of possible fanbase divisiveness over GS4/5 and confine every single thing to this one thread. I suppose it's a marginally different topic though.

Icer, keep in mind that the object of the theory is not to bash GS4 OR Apollo as a charachter, it's to try to explain what happened to phoenix, and why no-one helped him.

If you said that in the first line, IMO, there won`t be any flames.


This theory is ALSO not about Phoenix "taking over" for apollo. Apollo's games and story WOULD STILL GO ON. Thye just wouldn`t be in the same world as GS2/GS3.

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This Policy level rule thing you mentioned in your last post really has nothing supporting it, other than some circumstatial evidence that's not even supporting it. Second, you keep claiming that it's not related to 2 and 3, but unless I see EVIDENCE. SOME DIRECT EVIDENCE, like someone actually confirming what you say.

And as for the whole "Characters never coming back" why can you not just assume they're helping him off screen? Is it really nessecary for Capcom to bring them back, if they're really just off screen? It's not, really.

Oh, and for my arguments? Yeah, it's this little thing called LOGIC. Some of the things you've suggested are highly illogical.

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IMO, it's you who isn`t showing the evidence. Everything Icer has said, she has given reasons for. IMO, you`re the one who'se saying without explaining.



Then explain why yours are logical and hers aren`t.



She already taked about this, for one, but I`ll add something. After 3-5, there is no way ANYONE could think all his friends would stay "off-screen" after such a huge disaster in his life. Especially Edgeworth and Maya. In a world where GS2/GS3 happene,d there's at least a dozen people who would vouch for him and help him.



I can throw that right back at you and say YOU should quote someone confirming your point. Furthermor,e you haven`t even made an actual argument. All you've been saying is "icer is wrong and I am right" without actually giving a reason why other than "It's illogical", and half-thought statements.

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Yeah, Icers given reasons. But those reasons are based on assumptions made to support her argument. XD I could level that against most of the people here, on both sides, and even at myself.

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Don't try, because this has grown tiresome, circular, and retarded.


Essentially, Icer and some others assume a whole lot, and makes claims to truth based off these assumptions.
Someone responds, the circle turns, and we get no where.

The fundamental issue it seems is if whether or not Apollo Justice happened in the "main" timeline or not, or if there even is a branching "timeline"

Personally, I think that whole debate is really, really dumb. Dumber than GodotxFranziska fan-fiction dumb.

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Except that if Apollo Justice was ever intended as a branching timeline, it would of been stated. It's not even implied. It's nothing more than the work of shitty writing.

"Hey, 1-2 says that it's the beginning of a new century, but, it says it's 2016 in 1-1! Clearly, 1-2 is in an alternate timeline where the games take place in 2000!"

(Didn't read topic)

I think it would be very interesting to see somebody "big" from the Phoenix saga be the victim (Edgeworth, Maya, Gumshoe...etc) , and use that fact to show character development. Obviously Phoenix is going to be Apollo's boss (It's his Talent agency) and the grief/anger he shows would make the case feel so much more epic. And plus, wouldn't the player be very into that case?

Plus, I'd really like to see the old character's killed off or written out of the story. If I want to see them as they were, I'll get out Phoenix's games... but if reintroduced into Apollo's story, they need to contribute to Apollo's arc, not just fanservice.

No, that would be the worst mistake they could ever make. All it would do is piss off the original fans of the series make a great deal of them not want to play the games anymore. I know quite a few people who liked GS4 but would stop playing the games entirely if the writers sunk so low as to reintroduce older characters for the purpose of getting killed.



Just what is this morbid obession people have with killing off older characters? I saw this all the time back in the "GS5 Ideas" topic. Do people have this weird kink with death or something?

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Um, no we don't. We'd just like to see plot points the series hasn't attempted yet. And, killing off one of them may piss off some of the devoted players, but I think Capcom can introduce them properly, and not just have them around to get killed.

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Find evidence that contradicts my claim. There is none. See the game script. You'll see my statement is irrefutably correct. All easter egg statements fall within the rules of constraint - indirect reference only, no actual in-game impact, context associating it with any GS2 or 3 events is provided ONLY in past players' heads, NOT by game 4 itself, old chars outside 1-5 NOT ref by name.

There is NOT a single instance where a GS2 or 3 char (or an 'unreturned' game 1 char) is referenced by NAME (outside of the ones which appeared in 1-5) and they are only ALLUDED to in a convoluted, roundabout way, to the point of RIDICULOUSITY. It happens in every single instance, therefore it is a RULE. Find a single exception. There isn't one. It makes the game sound stupid and convoluted and more confusing - it would have been better writing WITHOUT it, so they were pretty committed. It also would have been a simple way to effortlessly tie the game as a follow-up to 3-5 if it actually was supposed to be - use these sentences to give RELATION to the old arc - but they ACTIVELY PREVENT THIS as they don't want association back to game 2 and 3.

As for the 'easter egg indirect references' indirectly implying game 2 and 3 events, examine what kind of statements they all are. It's 'there's a new prosecutor every year' - an empty statement which could easily be true regardless of whether game 2 or 3 actually happened, let alone in detail. It's NOT related back to the games themselves in a meaningful way. That would have been something like:
Phoenix:(and since I beat the prodigy Franziska von Karma, Klavier shouldn't be too much harder.)

THAT would have given association, vaguely, with GS2. It also would have contributed vaguely to the game world reality in terms of impact (Phoenix is more confident because of his past experience against prodigy von Karma.) This is why, in the actual game, it is NOT referenced directly. The way it is written, the statement is neutral. His statement could apply to any empty situation with a new prosecutor every year, whether or not GS2 or 3 had occurred. NO CONTEXT is given to associate it or any of the other 'Easter Eggs' directly with specific GS2 or 3 events in the actual game. The ONLY context is provided in previous arc players' HEADS, NOT game 4 itself.

And the removal of the references would NOT change the game or Phoenix's present character at all. There are NO EXCEPTIONS. Convoluted indirect references are not writing which comes naturally (even in 'bad' writing) or even sounds good. A ref like 'A certain case' COULD have been used to effortlessly tie in more specifically with game 2 IF the producer had even wanted to imply this was a continuation of game 2 and 3 reality. Instead a policy is obviously implemented in every circumstance to NOT allow any game 2 or 3 events to be reffed directly or wield impact, at the expense of superior game experience.

And no this would not have 'confused' new players. To them, they would have been interesting anecdotes about Phoenix's past and indeed made the game better. But in this reality, that past is NOT CANON in this game's context. Therefore, 'new' players are ACTIVELY PREVENTED from accessing this 'past' of Phoenix as they DON'T want to imply it even occurred in the NEW story/reality. This decision was taken even though it made the plot less enjoyable for players.

As for the magatama? It's not even indirectly related back to GS2 plot or chars. It's not even 'my assistant gave it to me'. It's a gameplay element which is stripped of even indirect context in relation to GS2.


If there was the slightest bit of evidence to even remotely imply or support the possibility that Maya or Edgeworth (or indeed, any other old chars) COULD be off screen, seeing or helping him, people would have found it and clung to it, because they desperately wish it existed. But instead, a very large and inignorable weight of evidence implies not only that they aren't there just off-screen, but specifically that actually they ARE NOT there, that the possibility that Phoenix is NOT all alone is actually unsupportable. IF the writers had wanted to imply they were there, they could have made an indirect easter egg ref to them, BUT THEY DON'T. They've gone, and their canon game 2 and 3 scenarios and development with them, without even an implied explanation.
The only vestige left of them: is 'substitutions' for bad stereotypical parodies of their game 1 roles, like at 1-5 timepoint.

So Maya and Edgeworth are 'in' game 4 only as new chars forming bad ironic parodies of their 1-5 timepoint roles to Phoenix. Unlike game 1 Edgeworth, Kristoph ironically really is a murderer and a friend he can NOT believe in after he is the 'only one' who stands up for him at the class/bar trial. Unlike game 1 Maya, Trucy, the girl Phoenix also saves involved in a crime not her fault with parents dead/missing and lawyer sibling, instead of giving him the decisive evidence like Maya in 1-4 (bullet), ironically gives him the FORGED evidence which DESTROYS his career. Oh the irony. This is DELIBERATE. 'Bad writing' doesn't 'randomly' form that kind of parallel.


Your logic is 'I am right because I am and you are wrong because you are and that statement is wrong because it is even though I have no evidence or even reasoning on which to base my assertion'. That sounds illogical. You claim my statements are wrong or unsupportable, but offer nothing to support your accusation or show they are inconsistent in any way.

As for the NEW STORY being a new conceptual reality being illogical, think of how it must have been for the new producer (who took over from 1-5 onward after one producer had produced the entire game 1-3 on GBA generation.)



There is nothing to indicate my 'assumptions', as you term them, are not factual (and if there is why haven't you provided it?) and masses of evidence supporting that they are factual. Nobody has been able to provide evidence or reasoning that any of them are in error or unreasonable. Thus you obviously have no way to deny the factuality that it is quite likely TRUE, at minimum in concept.And you have given nothing to support the assertion it isn't factual. What's your 'alternative explanation' for all of the points and resonings I've raised?


Oh also, what will happen if I post this 'topic', as suggested, in the GS4 or Defendant Lobby forums. Will it just get closed?

Lordy, make it stop.

Just fill in the damn blanks yourself.

I know what the magatama is, and the role it played. So I get it.

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How do you compensate for the fact that the entirety of character development and meaningful plot impact from games 2 and 3 have been ret-coned back to 1-5 timepont?

Did a bolt of lighting strike down a segment of reality and regress everyone back to 1-5 developmentally?

Because everyone from Phoenix arc has regressed back to their 1-5 timepoint developmentally just before this game. There is NO evidence to deem this statement incorrect.

Except that they never showed up in the game of Apollo Justice, so it would be plain foolish to assume that their characters have regressed, because cannot see it first-hand.

No really, this is retarded.

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But the writers thought they had compensated for their absence by making explicit fills for their 1-5 TIMEPOINT ROLES. And their absence is consistent with their 1-5 timepoint characterisation. And TOTALLY inconsistent with their 3-5 characterisation. Their very absence proves that their game 3 character development did not occur, as it's an inconceivable situation.

End 1-5 Edgeworth: 'gone/disappeared overseas'
End 3-5 Edgeworth: rushes in middle of the night from other side of globe to save Phoenix, wields power to get special trial with judge and prosecutor of his choosing, riskily masquerades as defense attorney. Helps Pheonix out and uses considerable power and exploitation of system to do so. LOYAL friend.
GS4 Edgeworth: 'Gone/Disappeared'. Flashback: Doesn't exist

Wow. Which one matches? GS4 Edgeworth is exactly like 'just after 1-5' Edgewortth! And nothing like 3-5 Edgeworth!

End 1-5 Maya: Left, in Kurain training, doesn't see him
End 3-5 Maya: (credits) Going to stay as legal assistant (you know, in upcoming CASES like flashback) and LOOK AFTER Phoenix who is FAMILY.
GS4 Maya: Far away (Kurain?), 'keeps sending' DVDs (doesn't actually see him. JUST LIKE she didn't see him between 1-4 and 2-2 notice). Flashback: Doesn't exist, in contradiction to 3-5 credits.

Wow. GS4 is exactly like the 1-5 timepoint Maya! And the opposite of 3-5 timepoint Maya!

You can't have it both ways. Either
-the writers were justified in them not being there because it was a follow-up to 1-5, and the 1-5 timepoint characters Maya and Edgeworth had 'left' fully precedenting them not being there and being consistent with their post 1-5 status, and their 'roles' in Phoenix's life at 1-5 timepoint were specifically and deliberately filled with parallel chars OR
-the game is insane, since their very absence indicated that their game 2 and 3 character development DID NOT OCCUR because anybody who ever played 3-5 knows they would not have 'disappeared' 2 months later in any scenario. If it was intended as a follow up to 3-5's reality the game is the worst atrocity of poor writing ever and should be purged from existence. Nobody could ever conceive it as written as a follow up to 3-5. Ever. And guess what? IT'S NOT.

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No, I really don't see it that way.

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That's nice. Doesn't make it right :P

I really think I agree with Icer, actually.

I've tried looking at it both ways and it makes more sense with her theory than just "oh they just weren't there", and I at least have some faith left in the writers so that it really wasn't just a giant-ass plothole.

...because that's really the only other explanation.

In fact the only reason I have to think that AJ wasn't some form of AU was that, now correct me if I'm wrong, it is called Gyakuten Saiben 4 in Japanese, and in some form of numerical order. Its English name wasn't numerical, simply Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, so it could have been an AU when -just- considering the English name. However, that's it; looking at the giant holes in AJ it makes more sense that it exists in an alternate timeline than in the one we're "used to".

...of course there's always the possibility that the writer's unintentionally scrapped every character or omitted them from helping Phoenix in every way, thusly showing them COMPLETELY OOC, particularily Maya and Edgeworth; Maya would probably stay by Phoenix's side no matter what and Edgeworth probably could have pulled enough strings to help Phoenix.

Any of them neglecting to do so can be chalked up to several possibilities; one, the writers WANTED to make Phoenix a hobo so sacrificed the characterization of other characters to do so, which is kind of a bitch move when you think about it because it's just wrecking something they've worked to establish. This answer is very possible but if it was true, my faith in the writers just dropped a bit.

Second possibility; you could always assume that whatever the others did to help him was just "off-screen" and the COMPLETE LACK OF MENTIONING of them was just not to confuse new players. Unfortunately this contradicts your argument, Ing, about the Magatama; not mentioning where Phoenix got it because the player already knew where he got it. Yet this would be one of the most confusing aspects to the player, would it not be? Not "huh, Phoenix had a friend named Edgeworth, I wonder what he did", but "what the hell is this green sparkly magic truth-rock thing?!". In fact the usage of the Magatama in AJ, to any player, was just a weird deus-ex-machina without any explanation.

Third possibility; it's an alternate timeline. After looking at it as objectively as I could, I'd have to agree with Icer. It's the only explanation that really fills in the blanks. Look at how Trials and Tribulations ended; everyone was happy, going out to dinner, la la la--WHABAM Phoenix loses his law license and all his friends abandon him THE END. What the hell kind of ending is THAT?! Certainly not a good one, at least for any form of canonity; the series kind of was a comedy until AJ came along and made everything depressing. That's almost (though I will give it, not quite as much) as bad as the whole Ctrl+Alt+Dlt miscarriage arc. Let me put it this way; for a writing team obsessed with pointing out the contradictions, they made too many of their own. But were these intentional, is the real question?

People can cry all they want about how "IT'S APOLLO'S STORY NOW". All I have to say on that, however, is that if it's true, my respect for the writers has dropped; the transition was not done well, the old characters that were responsible for our initial love for the game were forgotton, and the end result was a fun (albiet depressing) story that was a good romp and all, but just felt out-of-place when taking the last three games into consideration.

...and that was a long post. Excuse me, I have to lay down x_x

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You guys obviously haven't heard of Occams Razor.

"Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred."

So what's simpler?
A: They exist, it's the same timeline and they just didn't turn up so the writers didn't refer to them
B: They don't exist, it's a totally different timeline and the writers meant for it to happen that way by purposefully putting in vague references.

I would think that question would be easy.

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Yeah but the first answer is no fun :P

I'd also like to think the writers aren't douchebags but that's just me being naive.

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It is easy. B is obviously simpler.

A: requires coming up with a separate elaborate explanation with NO basis in actual in-game evidence, to explain EVERY SINGLE ONE of the billion 'contradictions' with games 2 and 3 individually.
(Oh, MAYBE Phoenix was OOC at the flashback trial because he was drugged? Oh, MAYBE Maya wasn't there and was not even mentioned or missed because she was abducted by aliens and her past existence erased. Oh, MAYBE Edgeworth never helped because he got clinically depressed. Oh, MAYBE Phoenix never mentions anyone unreturned by name because he's trying to hide his past from Apollo - except for ONE random case (1-5) which he is happy to continuously allude to in detail...)

B: requires ONE simple concept which accounts for practically ALL contradictions in the game flawlessly.

So, looks like Ockham's Razor does point to 'conceptual AU' as the simple explanation for all old char 'contradictions.

(And as for 'don't exist' it's 'don't exist beyond their 1-5 timepoint character development'. This being an AU after 1-5, they do 'exist', just not in anything past their 1-5 timepoint characters when they had 'left' and they never get to develop into their 'returned' format we see in game 2 in this AU scenario)

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As for atmospheres promoting an extension of 1-5, not 3-5, notice that in the 'flashback trial' and Phoenix's objections in 4-1, the GAME 1 (aka 1-5) theme musics are returned. While nostalgia accounts for the Objection theme in 4-1, the flashback trial IF it had been an extension of 3-5, would have made far more sense to continue the game 3 theme music. But it too regresses back to 1-5 time for the entire flashback trial! (Defendant lobby, court, objections...)

In contrast, the Magatama, which could have otherwise served as a nostalgia sequence for GS2, has actual effort expended on it to make a NEW version of the theme music, to disassociate it with game 2! They actually go out of their way to make a new theme so it doesn't relate directly to GS2 anymore.

Also, when Gumshoe turns up in the flashback trial it's
Phoenix: (Detective Gumshoe... Long time no see.)
But if 3-5 happened, it would only be 2 months maximum.. and so that's a weird statement to make, especially since they were pretty friendly by 3-5 and might have seen each other even after. Notice Gumshoe acts what we'd regard 'OOC' to his 3-5 timepoint in this trial too?

I think he meant what would be easier for the writers, in which case I would have to see option A as the easiest answer, but by easiest it also requires the blatent disregard for like 80% of the rest of the series. You could always opt to write it the easy way but no self-respecting writer (that at least isn't so full of themselves and/or completely stupid) would really do that, at least without filling in the holes (which could really only be done with option B so more or less this is just going in circles).

There is a difference between what you want the series to be, and what just makes sense; the writers taking the easy path makes sense IN A WAY, but in others it doesn't, so it's an excruciatingly grey area. However, what also makes sense is if AJ was a continuation of the 1-5 timeline. Gumshoe retaining his personality from that point in time also indicates this.

The one massive problem I can see, at all, in this theory, is the character ages. If it directly followed 1-5, Phoenix would have been 31, not 33, in AJ. I suppose you could always argue that two other years had passed and gone on differently than they did in JFA and TT, which makes sense in its own little way. In the flashback case, Phoenix did seem A LOT more mature than he did at the end of TT. This could either be because, being more alone in this "alternate timeline", he'd been forced to become more mature or whatever other explanation you want. However you could also argue that the writers were just being dorks and failed characterizing young!Phoenix properly.

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Meh, your opinion is false because I say it is. Mod rules.

Also, I invoke Godwins law.

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...um, wow.

Didn't realize video game speculation was such srs bsns, guys.

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Well, everyone really IS taking it that seriously. It's a game. We should all relax.

I couldn't bother.

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This is how Nazi Germany started!

I'm perfectly relaxed. Maybe it's a rare ability to be able to wage a speculative debate without having a hissy fit, but so far the arguments seem to be well-founded and haven't quite resorted to "NO U, BAAAAAAW"...yet. Maybe I don't see it, I dunno :P

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I like to invoke upon, in addition to Gerkuman's postulation, the "This is fucking retarded" corollary:

1. If "a", being wall of text, is used to convey "b", opinion; the quantity "a" does not equate validity ("f") on "b".
2. "b" is primary modem of thought on an internet forum "i"
3. "i" is a summation of a collected amount of "b" with small doses of fact "f" (can also be called validity)
4. If "f" is in direct contact with a large amount of "b", then there will be conflict made on part of "b"
5. "a" is the primary weapon of "b" used against "f"
6. All topics "t" on "i" are made of "f" being attacked by "b" by means of "a"
7. "t" is prone to take huge leaps into stupidity by means of "b"
8. Arguing against "f" using "b" is plain retarded

So then, to summarize:

a -> b, but a>b =/= f
b -> i
i = b+f
i = t+f <-> b+a
t -> f<b
(f<b) = plain retarded
t = plain retarded

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Hahaha you're clever.

I guess this is the "no u baaaaw" flaming I mentioned. I must have spoken too soon.

You preach that arguing on an internet forum is "fucking retarded"? I smell hypoooocrasyyy...

If you can't debate sensibly then keep your opinions to yourself. Personally, I don't *care* if *you* think it's "fucking retarded", you can kick and scream all you want, but we'll continue to defend *our* opinions and no pretentious equation will change that.

Part of being in a fandom includes debate and speculation on said thing of which you are a fan. It's part of the fun. Fuuuuun. Yes, it sounds foreign, doesn't it? Well, it isn't, and it's something at least *I'd* like to have on a forum once in a while.

So on that note, have a nice day =D

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But PI, you're the only one here who wants that. Icer is just as bad as Ing, me and PA; just in the other direction. The whole topic is full of anger and grumpiness, it's why Croik put it all in one topic to begin with. She couldn't bear to look at it any more. (Seriously)

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I just saw Icer as defending her own opinions (which at least made sense to me). She was debating her point instead of just plugging her ears and going "nananana you're wrong". I don't know any of you here yet so I really have no bias for or against anyone, that's just what I saw.

Personally, I'd be more egged on by someone who claimed to be right without even reading the full posts (which I assumed Ing was doing considering his gripes about "walls of text"). It can all start off fine and dandy but it takes one person screaming their profound knowledge of everything to devolve a topic. Fast.

Everyone in this topic is too caught up on being "right", when NOBODY is right or wrong, at least yet; this is all just speculation and FUN and nobody seems to get that because video game fanforums are serious fucking business. My comment about fun wasn't just directed at Ing, but everyone really. Jesus guys, lighten up.

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Talk about manipulating a point to fit what you think is right, instead of what, in this case, would actually fit as "right" in the way Gerk put it.

I've had it with this thread. It does nothing except let people whine.

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I've been "arguing" in this thread since page 2, PI. And have posted my fair share of what I would think up of as "logical" or "thought-out" posts, and "walls of text" even. Surely you've noticed, reading the whole thread, right? Of course you have!



I have ceased to be at the point of being grumpy, per se.
I merely stated what I think would be best for the series, along with what I think the general trends in the series were.

What makes me say this is "plain retarded" is the insistence by, let's face it, icer and a few others that the theories they present are completely and irrefutably true, and thusly, the only things that could make sense or work in any given context, which large amounts of "palpable evidence" which ends up reading more like "assumptions on how I interpreted events" placing her and others in no greater boat than me. I already said I am a moderate, but hearing people go on and on saying the same things over and over again, going around the same points, refuting the same things, making the series by and large more confusing than it ever needs to be... That makes me declare the whole thing "stupid".

All these abounding theories, all these improbable scenarios, just to save Phoenix and his friends... Do you even think they would want us to go through the trouble?

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You didn't help the situation, is my basic idea, by calling everything "fucking retarded". What did you expect, everyone to say "oh, so it is. Well I'm off to paint rainbows on my ceiling now :D"? No. All it did was instigate more HAET.

Yeah, I've seen your points, but instead of holding firm or even walking away, this whole thing just kind of degraded into name-calling and slander.

And that's no fun at all

Come on guys, this is silly. Agree to disagree or something.

I agree with Icer's theories but it's not something to slaughter over. Whether or not "they" wanted us to go through the trouble is irrellevent. Whatever "they" wanted it still confused the crap out of the fandom, so of course we'll speculate and formulate theories. So what if they turn out not to be true in the end? They're fun. And admittedly, some are pretty convincing.

...and I take my leave from this topic, if all it's going to be is moping.

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Now you're getting it.

Good!


As I said, all this does is remind me of the huge arguments over whether or not 1-5 actually happened or not.

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I don't see why the timeline split thing couldn't happen AFTER 1-5.

That's what I have been arguing. (it's a few pages back, isn't it.)
This is Phoenix after 2 further years of HYPOTHETICAL development, NOT the GS2/3 development. This accounts for why he's so 'different' in the flashback trial. It's 'make 1-5 Phoenix more experienced and confident after 2 more years as a lawyer (which weren't the actual detail or character development of GS2 or 3)'. The flashback happens at a TIMEpoint 2 months after '3-5' not a plot point. Time has passed, but not with the actual GS2 and 3.


It could. 1-5 could be in both arcs, timelinewise.



edit: In fact, why don't we keep all the 'arguing about arguing' rather than directly discussing the issue itself and rebutting the actual points raised, confined to 'spoiler' tags?

Either way, GS5 and GK are important to us all, as they could potentially sink the AU theory or support it implicitly. From this far away I can't tell what it's gonna be. Intruiging.

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