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The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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Athena Internet Defense Force

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What do you think? Is it better than the face-to-face/point-and-click style of the Ace Attorney games?

Could a traditional Ace Attorney game benefit from the ability to walk within the game's world? AAI doesn't miss the boat on any typical investigation features of an Ace Attorney game (Examine, Talk, and Present), it just does so in a way that is more interactive and natural.

Personally, I think whatever Gyakuten Saiban 5 may or may not be, the investigation phase should be done more in this style.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I like this better so far.
Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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The only problem I have with this, is that Miles knows everything after the Investigation phase.

So the rebuttals are so easy, because we just repeat what we already found out.

E.g in case 4
Spoiler:
We learn during the last investigation how the murder faked the time of death with the video, the open window etc, so the last rebuttal is so easy because we just need to explain that all again


In AA phoenix usually had nearly no clue how the murder really turned out, so the cross examinations were alot harder.


But I love the rest, the investigation phases are so much more fun. :D

Last edited by Lusankya on Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I like this style better, but if you ask me... the game is far too easy. Especially with Logic mode. I thought it'd be more difficult, oh well.

One thing that bothers me in this game is Franzika's sprite when she's 19 or whatever. She's crosseyed and when she talks it bothers me so much. ;_;
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I like it if only that it's a change of pace.
I'm not gonna lie, I REALLLYYY miss the courtroom action (only more of a reason to bust out GS1 and 3)
I agree, it's far too easy. Especially with all those chances to mess up. It's like I don't even half to try.

I think GS5 should stick to the original gameplay. AAI is a nice change of pace and thats it. Certainly enjoyed, but that's about it.
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It's absolutely brilliant. It's a design masterstroke. The only problem, as has been mentioned, is that the rebuttals are sometimes too recap-heavy, but the game sometimes manages to throw some real curveballs in the final confrontation.

This was an experiment that paid off, in my opinion.
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I like this much more than the "classic" AA style so far, it would be cool if GS5's investigation phases were like this.
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Athena Internet Defense Force

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Having gone up to case 4, I think the court they used there could serve as the court for the courtroom battles.

I'm starting to think Ace Attorney Investigations could very well serve as grounds for the next Ace Attorney. Just take the AAI base and add times when you must cross-examine witnesses and battle with the prosecution. The only thing really missing as it is conflict with a prosecutor.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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It's a very fun system, but somehow some of the drama that was in the last game just doesn't seem to be there. (Or at least so far... I only just beat the third case)

I think that this is because of the lack of a courtroom. Something just seems missing... I guess Ace Attorney just belongs in the courtroom. XD
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I really liked the immersion of the first person investigations in previous games. I'm only on the second case, and it feels a bit too much like a tricked out monkey island or something. I do like it that it is different from the previous games, it's a bit of a breath of fresh air. Edgeworth is great as a main character, and out of all of the other side characters they could have went with, he is the best one to be the main. He is so stiff that it leaves room for all the characters around him to be cooky, which is as it should be.

There were times where it showed action from the zoomed out view, and felt much less personal that way. Like I'm watching these little ants put on a play.

The walkabout mode DOES have more potential in the amount of places you can go and things you can find - old style had up to two screens for each location, so everything had to be packed into those 1 or 2 screens. All of the movements from the menu did get unwieldy. I think ideally I would like a combination - A little less of the zoomed out, a little more first person stuff, and show the action up close as much as possible. I wouldn't mind to have walkabout in GS5, but I would like them to find a way to up the immersion level of it somehow. Right now it feels like they went away from GS style, which is good, but they also went toward regular adventure game style, which is bad, because those games are really washed up (market wise) these days.

Still give this game a 10 so far! Just prefer the immersion of older games.

Edit: oh yeah, and it's a huge missed opportunity to play out the courtroom side. What I would like to see is knowing the truth, but having to "play with fire" a bit as prosecutors do to make the evidence beat their opponent. Needs more Udgey! And how epic would it have been to square off against his old rival phoenix in the courtroom, and see what it's like on the other side of the coin? The way this game sets up feels like we are seeing a different side of things entirely, which is cool, but I still want to be in court from the other perspective. We will have fangames to fill that out I'm sure :)
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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Consider this puzzle solved.

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It's nice, but sadly I spoiled about 1/4 of the game so I can't really appreciate it :larry: . But I agree, rebuttals are too easy and the game is very predictable at some points. There were only 2 things that really surprised me, and they were both in case 5:
Spoiler: WARNING: MASSIVE CASE 5 SPOILERS!!!
Shih-Na = Calisto Yew
Yatagarasu = Calisto Yew + Byrne Faraday + Tyrell Badd
I guess Edgeworth is just too smart.
Spoiler: Case 3
The whole "Lance kidnapped himself" thing was far too obvious. I suspected that early on.

Say, that reminds me of a puzzle! Have you ever heard this one, Luke?
Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I loved walking around in the investigations and being able to explore and examine things. But yeah, it deos feel a bit 3rd person, especial since Edgey has a sprite when he's talking to people, so it doesn't feel like you're looking through his eyes but through the camera's...

Another concern I had with this system is that you're usually restricted to one area to investigate. The PW and AJ gameplay requires moving between multiple locations (and sometimes it seems like teleportation between areas supposedly far away from each other). The going to any location at your leisure is kinda important to the investigation part, and not as easy as it was in AAI (which I felt was too "guided"). I suppose random teleportation or walking between locations is still possible, but then they'd have to create a map, and it'll feel more like an RPG than Visual novel...

But with 3DS coming out, maybe they'll do something with that, where you can "zoom in" at the locations, and certain things will "pop out", or maybe have a more panoramic view of the place (ie you can turn 360degrees in a room for example), or something
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I started replaying Justice for All after finishing Investigations, and it felt clumsy in comparison. I have to say I vastly prefer the Investigations way of moving about. I also prefer being able to see the playable character's reactions and such on-screen. Especially since Edgeworth's animations are hilarious.

The partner button is also preferrable to trekking all the way back home to talk to your partner, even - or especially - if the partner rarely has anything of use to say.

If they were to build the future games on the AAI model, they'd probably still have to have that "where to?" selection screen when moving between locations, though. It wouldn't make sense to have the front door of the detention center connect directly to the crime scene, and adding an outdoors section that connects all the locations would seem pointless.
Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I'm different I guess...I really liked the original style of examining things. Also, even though you got to run around the room and examine stuff with Edgey, I kind of missed the freedom of what rooms you want to examine that you get with the other way. But dont get me wrong, I really liked the AAI style, I just prefer the GS way.
And I agree with everyone else, AAI was far too easy. There were only a few instances where I was stuck, unlike in other games where I got stuck on every testimony.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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While I prefer being able to move around Investigations style, I prefer the less restricted feel of the main series, i.e being able to go to move from place to place during the investigation phase.
I also agree with the game being too easy, especially on penalties, seeing as how you ALWAYS just lose that tiny bit, no matter what
Spoiler:
Except for that single cross-examination/Rebuttal in case 5
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That's because there are more ways to screw up, I think.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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i like the style AAI gives but i hope GS5 come better in style
Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I liked it, except for the Cross-Examination segments didn't hold up to the original Ace Attorney model. In Ace Attorney, you got a lot of evidence over the course of investigating and then went into court with a fuzzy idea of what happened and had to struggle through some crazy shit to get your client free. In Ace Attorney Investigations, you get a few pieces of evidence, and then you go to a cross-examination with obvious contradictions. The pacing is all messed up.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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Call me Ishmael.

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I think Logic would be an excellent addition to the investigation phases of the "main" series.
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Objectively speaking, my head is telling me that I should prefer AAI's style of investigation because you can actually see everyone, move yourself around a room, etc. But then some other part of me says, "Screw all that, I still like the original way better!"

AAI was nice, but I just don't want it to become the standard.

Additionally, though this doesn't really pertain to how investigations themselves play out,

fatalfeline wrote:
It's a very fun system, but somehow some of the drama that was in the last game just doesn't seem to be there. (Or at least so far... I only just beat the third case)

I think that this is because of the lack of a courtroom. Something just seems missing... I guess Ace Attorney just belongs in the courtroom. XD


Icarus wrote:
I liked it, except for the Cross-Examination segments didn't hold up to the original Ace Attorney model. In Ace Attorney, you got a lot of evidence over the course of investigating and then went into court with a fuzzy idea of what happened and had to struggle through some crazy shit to get your client free. In Ace Attorney Investigations, you get a few pieces of evidence, and then you go to a cross-examination with obvious contradictions. The pacing is all messed up.


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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title

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I really liked it. It just seemed more natural to me, I guess, being able to walk around and investigate where you choose, or walk over and talk to people. I'd like it if GS5 was in the same style.
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The new gameplay has it's pros and cons, some things were enjoyable while others you wished could be removed/improved.

Like what everyone's saying, the cross-examinations (or shall I say Rebuttals in this case) were way too easy. At basically was replaying the whole thing again, and because of this there were less shocking points, when you figure it out during it, not before it.

How you were able to move around freely was great, but their sizes wasn't all too great.
Say for example, you see Godot throwing his cup of coffee. It looks better when you see them close-up, rather than seeing their "mini-sprites". Also, it made dramatic entrances less interesting. Remember Franny's entrance in 2-4? If you saw that in "mini-sprite" form, it won't be so cool. It was good because it made finding clues more interesting and you can see the whole room, but it's like watching a T.V. on a much smaller screen.

Logic was fun and all, but like rebuttals, it was REALLY easy. I don't recall making much mistakes from them, and I expected them to be much harder when I first heard of this feature.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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Meenyman wrote:
Like what everyone's saying, the cross-examinations (or shall I say Rebuttals in this case) were way too easy. At basically was replaying the whole thing again, and because of this there were less shocking points, when you figure it out during it, not before it.


Except for a few that were just completely unfair, like the one in Lang's testimony where
Spoiler: Case 3
it's heavily implied that you need to disprove that Lauren knew Colin was her father, but what the game wants you to do is latch onto a tangent and say, "Oh, yeah, there's three kidnappers."

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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I didn't mind the early investigations being punctuated with a couple of Confrontation scenes, they're the equivalent of the Psyche-Lock scenes in that regard. Too many cross-examinations bunched together in a row could also get tedious at times in the PW games.

I don't think the early Confrontations are the per se cause of AAI being too easy - the PW/AJ cases had court sessions long before the final killer was found too, not to mention that some of the contradictions in those games were really obvious as well. On the flip side, new evidence, revelations etc. seemed to crop up a lot more often in the middle of the Cross-Examinations than the Confrontations, which is part of the problem; Edgeworth never gets surprised anywhere near as often as Phoenix or Apollo.

Also, thank goodness for not ever being stuck running around in circles during the Investigation phase trying to figure out what is it you missed.

The weakest point was probably the Logic system - the connections between pieces were always obvious enough without having only a handful of pieces to match together at once (never more than five, IIRC). I'd revise it as follows:

-Less obvious connections in general (and on that note, less Edgeworth-explains-it-to-you internal monologues).
-All Logic pieces are also Evidence items in the Court Record/Organizer - no more separate Logic items.
-Remove the penalty for incorrect Logic matches, or else give some health recovery when you do get it right, to give the player some leeway in trying out different matches.
-Sometimes, in addition to connecting two items together, the player should also have to explain what exactly the connection is from a list of choices or using a third piece of evidence.
-A Thoughts section which the player can consult if they get stuck. Basically a hints page, it should contain a list of things that don't mesh with the character's understanding of the crime; the player then has to figure out which pieces of evidence to connect to resolve contradictions and the like.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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KingRaptor wrote:
-Remove the penalty for incorrect Logic matches, or else give some health recovery when you do get it right, to give the player some leeway in trying out different matches.
-A Thoughts section which the player can consult if they get stuck. Basically a hints page, it should contain a list of things that don't mesh with the character's understanding of the crime; the player then has to figure out which pieces of evidence to connect to resolve contradictions and the like.


Wouldn't doing these decrease the difficulty that most people are already complaining is too easy?
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
KingRaptor wrote:
-Remove the penalty for incorrect Logic matches, or else give some health recovery when you do get it right, to give the player some leeway in trying out different matches.
-A Thoughts section which the player can consult if they get stuck. Basically a hints page, it should contain a list of things that don't mesh with the character's understanding of the crime; the player then has to figure out which pieces of evidence to connect to resolve contradictions and the like.

Wouldn't doing these decrease the difficulty that most people are already complaining is too easy?

Well, describing it as a hints page might be a bit much. I meant the Thoughts section to serve the same purpose as the descriptions of Logic entries do in the current system, to nudge players into thinking about particular connections (though even those made it too easy sometimes; this should probably be reserved for the really non-obvious links).

Personally, I don't consider health damage to be a major aspect of the difficulty given how easy it is to circumvent with save/load cheese, but eh.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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A more even difficulty curve than AAI definitely needs to appear (especially when you consider that the hardest case was 3, not 5). If any AAI elements return, they should be the Deduce system and the Partner button. Logic mode was honestly a bit useless because it was so easy, and like has been said before, the little sprites detach you from the action. I prefer the GS style, quite honestly, because you're so restricted in AAI. The AA system just worked better, but then again, the first GS game's investigations were pretty clumsy, too; AAI will probably improve over time and find its niche when they make more games with that style, although I don't want it to replace the classic, first-person AA view. Although, that one song, "Investigation: Contradiction at the Crime Scene" needs to make a comeback-it's just so incredible and it makes it easy to think.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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I love the improved quality of the sprites, and the gameplay style was very interesting.
I liked actually being able to see stuff happening (eg Gumshoe being whipped) instead of PW/AJ where you had to use your imagination. And of course being able to move around the crime scenes.
But as I'm sure a few people have said, it was a fun refreshing change, but I'd like to see a comeback of the interface we all know and love.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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PL vs PW <33

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I just started playing Hotel Dusk, and I kinda like its way of moving around. I don't think AA necessarily needs to be able to have you walk around in a room, but it'd be nice if you can turn 360 at a location when you examine, and maybe zoom in at interesting spots.
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Re: The gameplay style of Investigations...Topic%20Title
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just like almost everyone mentioned,it was a bit too easy,but so was AJ.

how about this,in the next game,your invistigation phase wouldn't be confined to one area in and you wouldn't know which area to search,and it would be a point and click photo from the old ones,say you begin examining in an area despite the fact that the evidence you need to continue is in an entirly diffrent area that isn't right next to it,and you aren't informed in any way which area it is you need to examine(unlike in the game,in which you are informed which area to examine),so the detailed 3d examinations of an area from AAI + the multiple area invistigation = the prefect invistigation.

as for the evidence making the rebutalls and cross-examinations too easy,how about we put in evidence like the ones in JFA and T&T,the type that you don't know how to use right away.

there i solved the problem of the easyness of AAI invistigations for gs5 :edgy:
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