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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Marshmello wrote:
Cordopia Over All wrote:
she was genuinely amusing with the "I'm stealing your role" jokes and et cetera

You're entitled to your opinion, but be aware that the "I'm stealing your role" jokes, et cetera, were some of the main reasons Kay grinded people's gears. It comes off as a pompous and egotistical "Tee hee hee I get to spend more time with your partner and am more important to him than you are even though I just met him tee hee hee in your face" at Gumshoe, which was just plain insensitive and abrasive, and it sent up Mary Sue flags for some people.

Perhaps I should add that it is extremely hard for me to dislike fictional characters. For example, I can't bring myself to wish a violent death to Jar-Jar Binks unlike a fair number of my fellow Star Wars fans on the Internet. Anyway, perhaps I didn't find the "I'm stealing your role" jokes to be annoying because the first one came right after Shi-Song Lang outright called Gumshoe the comic relief character (which I also chuckled at), so it only seemed natural to follow a "4th-wall breaking" comment at Gumshoe's expense with another one.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Agreeing with pleadingeyes and Marshmello. And frankly I'm tired of having to explain my disliking Kay and why I like pointing out details.

In just one sentence: Before playing AAI, I was hoping to like perky and bold Kay, but afterwards, I just wanted to scrape my forehead with a cheese grater because she lacked any actual character in-depth, her relations with Edgeworth and Gumshoe felt so out-of-the-blue(even if squeezing her into the timeline pre-AJ events), and the use of Little Thief made Edgeworth lose his most valuable traits as a character: his independence, calm logical deductions, and lack of hindrance.

If anyone else feels the need to oppose me even with just that one sentence, then I guess my opinion's too "mean" and wrong to be considered a reason. And that I should defect over to the Kay Faraday club because your opinion and your arguments matter more than mine.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Quote:
then I guess my opinion's too "mean" and wrong to be considered a reason. And that I should defect over to the Kay Faraday club because your opinion and your arguments matter more than mine.


Finally you see the truth. :garyuu:

Nonetheless I still don't think she's a Deus Ex Machina.
I still don't think buying the house only served to introduce Kay's Little Thief.
In a game that's Kay's first appearance I didn't think she was overly forced (though I disapproved of the writing in general with a flashback in a flashback).
I didn't feel the game was too written around her.
I still think you're wrong.
I'm CERTAIN Edgeworth's useless logic system couldn't suffice in place of the Little Thief, in fact I'd rather they removed it altogether in favour of actually allowing the player to recreate the crime scene by building elements up.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
and the use of Little Thief made Edgeworth lose his most valuable traits as a character: his independence, calm logical deductions, and lack of hindrance.


What?
Spoiler: Case 3
It was because of Little Thief in Case 3, End Part 2 that Edgeworth wasn't hindered by Amano's buy out of the haunted house. Are you suggesting that Edgeworth should have allowed Lauren to take the fall for Lance?

Also, I'm pretty sure Edgeworth still has all of those characteristics by the end of the game. :V
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I like to argue (in the non-hostile sense), so if you'd rather not read it then skip over this post


Marshmello wrote:
Someone's opinion can hardly be 'wrong'.

So tempted to pull out that reductio ad absurdum involving one or more former US presidents...

Little Thief
LT's use at the stadium in AAI-3 was perfectly valid. The sequence of discoveries made (IIRC) was:

Spoiler:
-No blood, hence they were likely wearing the badger suits.
-The stage was up at the time of murder.
-The shooter was standing on the stage (else he'd be clipping into it).
-The victim rather than the shooter was standing on the stage.

Now, Edgeworth may be the smartest guy in the Ace Attorney universe, but if he overlooks even one detail there (in his head or while explaining it to others), either the sequence of logic breaks or he misses info that turns out to have been vital later - when simulations are expressly designed to prevent such oversights or else make them obvious. From the player's perspective, it would also be rather annoying to match the logic pieces for one step of the sequence, get two more logic pieces to combine, match those, get two more, etc., and Edgeworth having a flash of inspiration (like in cases 2 and 4) would be rather inappropriate to that particular scene. (If you ask me, the Deduce system was much more interesting and logical than the Logic system.)

Arti_Rei wrote:
Little Thief made Edgeworth lose his most valuable traits as a character: his independence, calm logical deductions, and lack of hindrance.

Independence? Ignoring the fact that Edgeworth is dependent on Gumshoe to get him evidence in pretty much the entire Phoenix arc, the last quarter of AAI-5 was basically all kinds of people helping him with evidence or just nagging him.
Calm logical deductions? LT is a tool Edgey uses to assist his logical deductions, not diminish them. This statement reads to me a lot like "Computer graphics editing is taking the soul out of art!" :lana:

Characterization
Kay's characterization and development thereof is certainly shallow by most standards, but among non-villian, recurring/important characters in the AA universe it's arguably deeper than Larry's, Oldbag's, Lotta's, Bratziska's, JFA Franziska's, Pearl's, Apollo's or Trucy's and close to or on par with Gumshoe's, Maggey's or Klavier's, all while having considerably less screen time than most of those characters.

Spoiler:
Don't believe me? Well, I can sum up the entire personality of all those listed characters in one (non-run-on) sentence, and if they have really good character development, that sentence will contain both the words "and" and "but".
:larry: My name is Leisure Suit Larry Butz, and I cause my old friends deep emotional trauma every time I show up.
:wendy: Oh, Edgey-poo, Let me tell you about what a charming young maiden I was when I was young, unlike now when nobody appreciates anything I do and...
:lotta-smug: I'm a redneck, and I gotta catch that one photo that'll let me make it big! (Oh, and I have really poofy hair)
:franny: (AAI-4) I must one-up my little brother at all costs!
:franny: (JFA) I'm just like my father, except I'm not completely evil.
:pearl: I'm an innocent little girl who really loves my cousin Maya!
:odoroki: I'm Phoenix Wright's protégé who gets bullied by everyone even more, and...uh yeah, that's it. Seriously, :hobohodo: got more character development than I did...
:minuki: I can do magic with my friend Mr. Hat!
:eh?: I'm an incompetent detective who keeps getting my salary cut for good reason, but I can do it when it counts, pal!
:maggy: My life is one long chain of bad luck, but Detective Gumshoe and Mr. Wright and Mr. Edgeworth are so nice to me!
:rock'n: I'm a typical glimmerous fop of a rock star, but I still have my dignity as a prosecutor.

In contrast, :keylady: "I'm a hyperactive teenage thief who really admires my daddy" doesn't seem so bad in comparison, does it?

TBH, very few characters in the Ace Attorney universe have had any real character development; I think we just give them a pass because we've known them for longer.

Fingerprints
I'm having trouble finding anything saying that latent fingerprints on plastic can't be preserved under the right circumstances. Anyway, if you want to complain about something unexplained, try the poisons in 3-1/3-4 and 4-4.
Frankly, though, I'd much rather they not explain it than to come up with an obviously nonsensical explanation (see also: Star Trek). To people who don't care it's just so many words, to people who do care it's annoying and keeps them from coming up with their own explanations for how it works.


Arti_Rei wrote:
If anyone else feels the need to oppose me even with just that one sentence, then I guess my opinion's too "mean" and wrong to be considered a reason. And that I should defect over to the Kay Faraday club because your opinion and your arguments matter more than mine.

...what
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Kartoon Kween wrote:
I stick to my assertion that characters, usually female, are mostly accused of being canon sues based on the fact that the player did not like them yet the other characters did. Fandom is filled with ~OPINIONS~ that ultimately mean nothing.


true dat

See, I don't much care if a character is a Sue or not. I just like them or dislike them, and as long as it doesn't detract from the believability of the storyline then whatever, you know? Fandom is, like you say, opinion. :3
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Lol, she NEVER convinced me, guys. End of story.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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You can tell when both sides are starting to bring up the same points again and again, this is probably just a difference of opinion. It mostly depends on how one felt after all the events, before they came to a forum to chat about it.
Makes me wonder whether the topic title should be something more neutral, rather than provoking debate.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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^This. The whole debate has been beaten into the ground. On one side, she's annoying and useless. On the other side, she's adorable and useful. Both opinions are valid.

Also, the tone of your post matched your avatar perfectly.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Katana wrote:
Makes me wonder whether the topic title should be something more neutral, rather than provoking debate.


Haha, I should add a question mark at the end. "Canon Sue?" XD

I don't think debate is a BAD thing necessarily. I think it becomes a bad thing when people get hostile about it.

I still think Kay was shallow, even compared to those other characters (who I do think you simplified in some cases, as we did get more than that out of several of them than just their main shtick) and even worse, inconsistent. I do think she was a detriment to Edgeworth's character (as has already been stated and even to the pace of the game making us go through a roundabout scenario recreation that could have been easily solved by putting two pieces of logic together).

I wanted to like her, I really did, as I have loved ALL the assistants before her, even 1-5 Ema who took a while to grow on me, and I tried really hard to. And I mean I REALLY tried. But the game just got increasingly absurd when it came to her, and by the end of it I just didn't *care* about her and wanted her to go away so I could focus on *Edgeworth's* story again.

And just a thought, no one else found it odd that Edgeworth made ~such a connection~ with Kay that he spoke about his past, when everything we've seen about Edgeworth in previous games shows that he's the kind to keep those things to himself and let them fester? He won't even let Phoenix or Franziska check on him after an Earthquake, and that's in 3-5 when he's already made a lot of progress as a person.

AAI disappointed me overall, I suppose. I really wish it had polished up an awesome logic system instead and become a real puzzle game instead of drawn out, slower paced, strangely less logical cross examinations with some running around sprites thrown in for the heck of it. It had some truly shining moments, but the tedium as a whole hardly seemed worth it.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Katana wrote:
You can tell when both sides are starting to bring up the same points again and again, this is probably just a difference of opinion. It mostly depends on how one felt after all the events, before they came to a forum to chat about it.
Makes me wonder whether the topic title should be something more neutral, rather than provoking debate.


But.....but.....SERIOUS BUSINESS IS SERIOUS!

:udgy:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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I agree with the OP, completely.

After reading the first page, though, Croik brings up a good point that I can really think about, even though I dislike Kay. (X
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Hmm, she's a bit... generic, but not Mary Sue.

FerdieLance wrote:
The problem, if there is one, isn't that Kay is a Sue, but that she's unremittingly shallow.

Yeah, that's probably a good assessment.
It was a little weird how they were all falling over her in case 4, but very few people are going to be unkind to a 10-year-old who has just had her father murdered.

They blatantly give some kind of justification, at least, for Edgeworth and Franzy's affinity with her, even if it's not so believable.

I thought she was better than 1-5 Ema, and Trucy, who relied too much on their 'gimmick' [1-5 Ema especially]. Ema didn't show any decent characterisation till GS4. Maya's gimmick [spirit medium, being able to channel] was important, but it wasn't her character and was integral enough to the stories to not be a 'gimmick'. Kay being a 'thief' seemed a bit pointless [she didn't exactly steal things to help you, did she?] but it wasn't pushed too hard. Edgeworth did seem unusually tolerant of it though. Interesting how a crime series in general is so tolerant of petty crime [Ron, Maya stealing everything...] Actually, GK did remind me of 1-5 in many ways - Edgeworth being thrown into a side story revolving around a final boss with a female teenage sidekick being acquired via this case suddenly, like Ema. But I think they did a better job in connecting it, making the Edgeworth-Kay relation come from the past and not usurping his relations with Gumshoe [they even break the 4th wall repeatedly over this] or other chars.

Little Thief was just a ploy to get us to examine crime scenes computer-game style without being as inexplicable as, say the MASON System. Now if Kay was a real Sue, she would have made it herself, not got it from her father...

Now they could have expanded her character. What exactly is a 'Thief for the truth'? Following her father point-blank is a bit... maybe a better re-assessment based on the new info on the true nature of the Yatagarasu?

If there's another GK/GS game, I'd say she's most likely of the new cast to appear/cameo, which is a pity cause I think, say, Lang is more interesting but whatever. I like her okay, she didn't irritate me in any way, but it's not like I felt much depth or emotional attachment to her char either. I applaud the game for not making her the lone sidekick in the whole game but continuing Edgeworth's interesting relations with Gumshoe and Franziska.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
If anyone else feels the need to oppose me even with just that one sentence, then I guess my opinion's too "mean" and wrong to be considered a reason. And that I should defect over to the Kay Faraday club because your opinion and your arguments matter more than mine.


No one is "opposing" you on the issue of liking Kay. People can like or dislike whoever they want. But there's a big difference between saying "I didn't like Kay" and "Kay is a Sue." One can be debated and one is just a person's opinion.

And there's nothing wrong with a good debate! Anyone can come in or bow out whenever they like.
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About Kay's storyline, I think that I'd have been more interested if we'd gotten to see more of her relationship with her father, maybe at the beginning of case 4 or something. I'm sure a lot of people found the part with Kay crying in case 4 really emotional, but it was literally like a little girl had wandered in, said she knew her father was dead, and started crying. Of course there's empathy, but I felt a bit like "Why should I care?" All throughout the game you get the feeling that you never properly understand Kay or her situation, which for me made her grief feel shallow and made me not care about her story.

I agree with the view that she's inconsistent - throughout case 5 one moment she'll be "Woohoo! Let's go chase down my father's killer!" and the next she'll be angsting. Of course she could just be putting on a cheery facade or whatever, but it's so hard to get a vibe from her. The way her mood shifts is really unnatural. All the other assistants were sad and serious and cheery in a natural way - when they weren't you learnt later that they were trying to hide their feelings and why. IIRC this is demonstrated perfectly at the beginning of case 5: "Yaaay! Let's go hunt down the fake Yatagarasu! ...My father's legacy... my father's killer... *angst*...I need to avenge him... SO YAAAY YATAGARASU HUNTING TIEMZ!!! Let's go watch the Steel Samurai YAY!"
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Wow. I have no idea Kay is so unpopular. And here I am thinking there may be a chance of a new game featuring Franziska, Ema and Kay doing the investigation. I can even see a poster with the shadows of the three ladies just like Charlie's Angels.
Spoiler:
Well, Kay did mention that she would like to find two equally pretty young girls to team up with her at the end of the game.

If I have to choose a main character that I really dislike from the AA franchise it would not be from the ME - AAI game.
Apollo would win it hands down in every occasions. Not to mention that the whole story is a make believe from the very start.
Spoiler:
Come on. Phoenix lost his attorney status.
1)Edgewoth and Franziska did nothing (I honestly think that Franziska is still waiting for a chance of victory in court agaist Phoenix) and
2)Maya and Pearl both ran away?

Apollo is slow, stupid and a bit annoying.
I finished all AA games in one week and AP - AA took me two months and I had to physically stop myself from buying any other games before finishing that game.
It seems that Kay is just a girl in her teens with a tragic past that she can't take things too serously or she may risk an emotional breakdown.
And all the other main characters in the game accept that as they were involed in the same incident.
Spoiler:
I remain hopeful that what Kay said is a reference on what Capcom is to do next despite what most people think of her. Fingers crossed. Edgeworth can act as Charlie in such case.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Er... frankly, the thought had not even occurred to me while playing the game.
She's a fairly typical AA character. Not as remarkably well-written as Maya, of course, but that's not the point here. The point is that I fail to see one single argument in favor of her being a Mary Sue.
In fact, I believe the fact that she is obviously flawed in ways that are acknowledged several times by the main characters pretty much proves she isn't. No one ever talks about how perfect she is... she's very rarely praised, and in fact, Edgeworth spends most of his time disapproving of her actions - like Phoenix and Apollo often do with their own assistants. When Kay wants something, Edgeworth's usual reaction is to be reluctant at first, then to accept because he has trouble using authority with young people and finds her kind of cute (something that is completely consistent with his character as shown in te previous games). With a Mary Sue, he would have accepted right away in a very OOC manner.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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^There are many ways to characterize a self-insert without raising suspicions.
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What I think Kay's character really needs is to take a great risk/suffer pain for someone else's (Edgeworth's) sake.
Spoiler: 1-4
Like Maya's "take the taser for Phoenix" moment (except without the part where Phoenix still gets zapped immediately after anyway :sadshoe: )

That scene, along with the ending where she decides to go back to Kurain so she could train enough to help Phoenix again, was what turned whom had up until then been an otherwise uninteresting character into a meaningful one.

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Arti_Rei wrote:
^There are many ways to characterize a self-insert without raising suspicions.


Examples...?
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This is an interesting debate, keep up the good work. As for me, I kinda like her but she does have Sue traits.

The best example is in Turnabout Ablaze - Middle, Part 3 where she's all "It's okay Shih-na, I'll forgive you for killing my father, ruining Uncle Badd's life and accusing me of murder because you're so DARK, COLD AND LONELY on the inside and someone else told you to do it".
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
Examples...?


There were a couple or more from the FMA games. I got the same vibe from Kay as them.
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Marche Tobaye wrote:
This is an interesting debate, keep up the good work. As for me, I kinda like her but she does have Sue traits.

The best example is in Turnabout Ablaze - Middle, Part 3 where she's all "It's okay Shih-na, I'll forgive you for killing my father, ruining Uncle Badd's life and accusing me of murder because you're so DARK, COLD AND LONELY on the inside and someone else told you to do it".


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I think part of the problem with this thread is debate/non-consensus over exactly what a 'Mary Sue' is. I think its general use online has expanded slightly from the original term.

More accurate to just say Kay is somewhat shallow and her characterisation lacks in some areas. I thought she was better executed than 1-5 Ema and probably Trucy though. I should wait till I have time to replay the game to pass final judgment.

Mushrambo wrote:
If I have to choose a main character that I really dislike from the AA franchise it would not be from the ME - AAI game.
Apollo would win it hands down in every occasions. Not to mention that the whole story is a make believe from the very start.


Oh yes. Apollo takes the prize for 'worst characterisation of main character'. He's mostly just an avatar, and the rest is boring. And Phoenix is disbarred mostly so there's a reason we have to play as him, but the story is really about Phoenix anyway...

Quote:
And here I am thinking there may be a chance of a new game featuring Franziska, Ema and Kay doing the investigation.


I don't think Kay's defense attorney material, and the original seemed to be a prosecutor, defense attorney and detective. [Still holding out hope Ema will get to be a proper forensic scientist] Still,I wouldn't mind this game... better than Apollo Justice 2 particularly if it's as lacking as '1'.

KingRaptor wrote:
What I think Kay's character really needs is to take a great risk/suffer pain for someone else's (Edgeworth's) sake.
Spoiler: 1-4
Like Maya's "take the taser for Phoenix" moment (except without the part where Phoenix still gets zapped immediately after anyway :sadshoe: )

That scene, along with the ending where she decides to go back to Kurain so she could train enough to help Phoenix again, was what turned whom had up until then been an otherwise uninteresting character into a meaningful one.

Agreed. 1-4 made Maya. Though 1-2 was integral to setting it up as well, guess she has a more compelling backstory/intro and association to Phoenix than merely 'My father was just murdered but I'll try not to cry' which carries less weight since someone gets murdered EVERY case. Still, making her have a ret-con deeper connection to Edgeworth would also be unreasonable so I'm glad they didn't do it. Kay's personality is all over the place and past events don't seem to affect her in any coherent manner. What IS a 'thief for the truth'? This is supposedly her identity but she never actually does anything with it, and I'd think the revelation of the
Spoiler:
actual trio with Callisto Yew and all, rather than just her vague idolisation of her father as a justice hero
would have more effect in a properly written char. I'd say her characterisation is... passable. It's enough to be acceptable [unlike Apollo] but they could have done more. Actually, same with Lang. What characterisation we saw was tantalising, but they didn't give us enough backstory on him, I felt. Kay got backstory but not characterisation. I guess there are limits in time and budget and space and all. A problem with potential GK2 in terms of developing Kay and Lang is that they can't go to the past again as Edgeworth, since he never saw them again in the seven [?] years.

KingRaptor wrote:
Characterization
Kay's characterization and development thereof is certainly shallow by most standards, but among non-villian, recurring/important characters in the AA universe it's arguably deeper than Larry's, Oldbag's, Lotta's, Bratziska's, JFA Franziska's, Pearl's, Apollo's or Trucy's and close to or on par with Gumshoe's, Maggey's or Klavier's, all while having considerably less screen time than most of those characters.


You're not taking into account the char's ROLE in the plot. Larry and Oldbag, for example's, main role in plots IS it be annoying comic-relief which sometimes also helps you [well, Larry helps]. Maggey's ROLE in the game is just to be an unfortunate, bad luck person who gets ridiculously accused of crimes [never really a Maggey fan, actually.] They get adequate characterisation to fulfill their plot and game roles, even if it's reasonably shallow.

The 'sidekick' [Kay doesn't take this sole full role in GK, I'm glad they didn't retread the 'formula', it never worked as well rehashed as a 'formula' for Ema and Trucy] also has a more serious and integral role in the main plots and emotive weight of the story. That's their plot/story purpose.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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icer wrote:
I think part of the problem with this thread is debate/non-consensus over exactly what a 'Mary Sue' is.


http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/mary+sue

Now all confusion and uncertainty should now cease to exist.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
Nonetheless I still don't think she's a Deus Ex Machina.

Well, compared to Maya she's not even close to being a dues ex machina.

I mean, every time Little Thief is used it's credibility crumbles when it is revealed that the situation is still merely a hypothesis.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I've only skimmed this topic (okay, just post one and the last page but shhh) but have seen some good points about bad writing. I didn't think it was Mary Sue-ish, just...Questionable.

I never had anything against the character, but just the idea of "oh its ace attorney and we need a immature jailbait sidekick" bugged me.
Moreso considering the team of Gumshoe and Edgeworth was very different from past games, and given my liking of the characers was something I'd looked forward to.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I thought Little Thief was ridiculous, but understood it had its place in the gameplay. So, after reading the wikipedia on computer graphics rendering, I don't see Little Thief as something that requires very little programming on Kay's end by the fact that she had to generate the Blue Badger, something you wouldn't find premade in a "object library". On the other hand, if Little Thief had a touchscreen and came with something like MAYA installed... then that would just make her... a really good modeler.

I agree that she isn't any more shallow than other characters we've been introduced to, just that the expectations for her were set higher, naturally because it's Edgeworth, and any teen sidekick of Edgeworth's should be awesome. To me, Kay was boring so she failed in that respect. Peppy, eager, enthusiastic, stoic in the face of a tragic past, going to become the next Hokage-- they're not bad qualities, just very typical ones. And after Maya and Ema, it went from being annoying to just something that comes with the AA series, if that makes any sense : /

The reasoning behind putting up with Kay is rather simple. Why I think Edgeworth let her tag along was because Kay, besides being related to the cases, was a person outside the police department who was actively trying to be around him, offering (however limited) assistance, and openly appreciative of what he did, while having no (apparent) desire to get in his pants. I wonder how often that happens. And Edgeworth, just like Phoenix with Maya, let her do so because it's nice to have a friend.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Can we can the off topic discussion of Apollo Justice in this thread? Thanks.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Nice to know I wasn't' the only one that felt like Kay was a canon sue.

Her personality seems to be about everywhere and I really couldn't find anything that could make me really like her. I think she was poorly perceived in the game. I mean even getting a bit on Franzika's good side? Surprised Miles even let her tag along with him first off. And mentioned above, can't forget forgiving your father's killer even though she probably didn't give a rat's ass about it.
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Honestly I liked Kay. I thought she was underused, but I never thought of her as a sue character.

I mean no offense, but honestly if she's getting the sue label I'm blaming Edgey Fanaticism for that. After all had Kay been more developed or had it been any type of new girl whatsoever. No matter how developed that person is they would have been hated because of being paired up with Edgeworth. Who I'd say IS pretty much the most popular character in the series, and the most loved by the fandom. In a way it doesn't surprise me at all that there is fandom backlash against Kay when she's living the dream of all Edgey fanatics fanboy and fangirl alike... Well probably fangirls more...

Again no real offense or anything meant by this. It's just my observation.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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pleadingeyes wrote:
And just a thought, no one else found it odd that Edgeworth made ~such a connection~ with Kay that he spoke about his past, when everything we've seen about Edgeworth in previous games shows that he's the kind to keep those things to himself and let them fester? He won't even let Phoenix or Franziska check on him after an Earthquake, and that's in 3-5 when he's already made a lot of progress as a person.

Could anyone remind me exactly when this was and what exactly was said? Even though I finished the game only a few days ago, I already seem to have misplaced my memory of it somewhere...

But I wouldn't think it that strange. Yes, Edgeworth may be a very private person, not likely to admit his feelings to anyone, but let's not forget, he knows exactly what she's going through. He lost his own attorney father at approximately the same age; looking at her, he's looking in a mirror. I'd think it weird if he didn't develop a soft spot for this girl.

As for what I think... I thought Kay was mostly tolerable. Other than that I'm not sure what to think. I'm not the biggest fan of Maya, but at least after the first game I knew who she was. What drove her. I just can't seem to get that kind of grip on Kay's personality. She wants to be a Great Thief. She wants to avenge her father's murder. She's genki like no other genki girl has ever been. She's angsting about her father's death. I know all this about her but somehow it just refuses
to click together into a complete personality. Instead, it all just springs apart like one of Edgeworth's failed pieces of Logic.

I would also have preferred to have something other than a chirpy teenage girl assistant for a change. I really enjoyed running around with Gumshoe in tow. Not that he's any more intelligent, but, well, he's Gumshoe! Pal!
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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LadyK wrote:
I mean even getting a bit on Franzika's good side?


I dunno why this keeps getting brought up as a mark in the Sue column. Didn't anyone notice that Lang gets away with calling her "Sis"?

Spoiler:
Not to mention Lang actually catches the whip! That is seriously bad ass.


If main characters in the same game getting along means one is a Sue/Stu, we'll never be able to expand the cast!
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Hmmm, nah, I don't really think of her as one. I think she's alright, it's just that the perky happy-go-lucky female assistant personality is getting a bit old to me, so that's probably a reason why I don't consider her a favorite character of mine. I couldn't really connect with her personality. I know I may sound awful, but I didn't really have sympathy for her. Well, mostly because she just seemed to be all over the place with her personality. I didn't really like her at all in case 4 because I just found her to be pointless and somewhat annoying, but she was tolerable in the other two cases.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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...You know who the real Canon Sue in AAI is?

Miles Edgeworth.

No, really, he's the one who's perfect in (almost) every way, always gets to be the hero (attractive young women fawning over him included), and gets away with some ridiculously brazen stuff.

Spoiler: AAI-2
Rhoda lies about getting the Captain's permission to let Edgey (someone she's known for all of five minutes) search the crime scene despite the fact that he's still the prime ONLY suspect in the murder, just because she feels bad for falsely accusing him (she could've done a better job of checking the facts, but it wasn't really her fault he looks like the murderer)?
Then Franziska shows up. Edgeworth is still the prime suspect at this point and really has no business being allowed at the crime scene (or going anywhere without a police escort, for that matter), but Franzy lets him continue investigating with only Gumshoe for supervision? Really most un-von Karma-like.

Spoiler: AAI-3
Somehow, Interpol has been given carte blanche rights to take over the entire area in their investigation, including comandeering the local police force. Under these circumstances, Edgeworth has about as much business running around the place as Kay does. Why Lang doesn't have Edgey detained for questioning on the kidnapping isn't exactly clear. Why, given his opinion of prosecutors and the fact that he views Edgeworth has getting in his way each time they meet, he doesn't just have Mr. Cravat ejected completely from the theme park is even less clear.

Oh, and of course Lauren falls for him.

Spoiler: AAI-4
We've seen Bratworth in 3-4, and he's a grade A ass who's been taking Manfred von Karma's teachings to heart. He hasn't changed at all when we see him in 1-2 and the first half of 1-3. Gumshoe hasn't exactly won the respect or affection of any prosecutor hes ever met. So, does Edgeworth ask his mentor to have him made the prosecutor of the no-doubt upcoming State vs. Gumshoe murder trial? Nope. Forget how he reacts to Kay, Young Miles getting all heroic and working aggressively on the investigation to clear Gumshoe's name is what really's out of character.

Spoiler: AAI-5
"I'm sorry, sir, but this is embassy isn't the territory of either the state of California or the United States federal government. I'm afraid this is an Interpol-only op."
"Oh hay, I just made myself Franziska's assistant, can I come in now?"
"Sure, sir! Go right on ahead!"

Franziska playing along with this isn't too odd (she does get to boss him around, after all), but still. Really.

Spoiler: The whole game
How many times is Edgeworth wrong about anything? Especially when he's arguing with Franziska or Lang? When Phoenix gets it right, it's usually either by coming up with a really zany theory that he can't really support but later turns out to be true, or getting bailed out by Mia. Edgeworth, on the other hand, is always one step ahead of everyone else and almost never gets frazzled. Only time he really needs help from outside is during the final confrontation with Alba, where you have all the crazy people running in with the evidence just in time.
And when Phoenix makes a big discovery about how the case really occured, he's like "WHOA! So that's how it happened". Edgeworth, on the other hand, acts like "I knew that all along, of course. Anyone with half my IQ would."

But of course Edgey gets a pass on all these stuff, because we all love him. I don't find Edgeworth's persona in AAI to be objectionable in itself, but let's not pretend that he's not the one with all the Sue traits, here.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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^That should be posted in the "Edgeworth HAET thread" <--doesn't exist
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
^That should be posted in the "Edgeworth HAET thread" <--doesn't exist

Edgeworth haet? Moi? Oh, you wound me so. :sadshoe:
I'm just pointing out in so many words that Edgeworth (and Franziska, for that matter) exhibit Sue characteristics far in excess of Kay's, yet nobody calls them Sues. (I think this is a good place to remind ourselves that a Sue character is more than the sum of his/her Sue traits, here).

On a side note: What's all this talk about Kay forgiving Yew for killing her father? Replaying the scene, the most I got from Kay's words and expression was:
Between the discovery that her father and Yew were both actually members of the Yatagarasu, and that there was never the one Great Thief like she'd always aspired to be on the one hand; and that Yew was just a professional trigger-puller and the person really responsible for the death of her father was still out there on the other, Kay realized there was no use resenting Yew for what she had done. (What happened less than five minutes ago when, in the heat of the moment, she tried to exact revenge on Yew probably also helped in that regard.)

Actually...
In hindsight, the writers really should have made more use of that scene; I don't exaggerate when I say it could have been the moment that defined Kay's character development. Between her crushed aspirations and her realizing the futility of her seven-year quest for revenge, Kay decides to finally stop living in her father's shadow and become his successor rather than merely his imitator.
As it is, I forgot that scene even existed by the time the credits rolled and the only thing people remember Case 5 Kay for is her suddenly going from plotting to vigilante assassinate Alba if that's what it takes to "We can do it if we believe, guys!" :sadshoe:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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KingRaptor wrote:
...You know who the real Canon Sue in AAI is?

Miles Edgeworth.

No, really, he's the one who's perfect in (almost) every way, always gets to be the hero (attractive young women fawning over him included), and gets away with some ridiculously brazen stuff.


Ahaha, well stated. And I have seen the "Stu" label painted over Edgeworth in the past, especially in JFA when he shows up just to be awesome. When it comes to getting away with things and earning the trust and admiration of lots of people, Edgeworth certainly wins over Kay!

Though let's be honest, Edgeworth has kind of earned his stripes by now. He's the series golden boy--if he wasn't that amazing it wouldn't e good for his reputation!
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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KingRaptor wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
^That should desu posted in teh "von Fry Cook HAET thread" <--doesn't exist

von Fry Cook haet? Moi? Oh, you wound me so. :sadshoe:


I'm sorry, I meant discussion of Edgey's bad points not to be taken here in "Kay's bad points" thread.


Quote:
Me, Myself, and I'm just pointing out in so many words that von Fry Cook (and Professor McWhippyWhip, for that matter) exhibit Sue characteristics far in excess of Kay's, yet nobody calls them Sues. (Me, Myself, and I think this desu a good place to remind ourselves that a Sue character desu more than teh sum of his/her Sue traits, here).

On a side note: What's all this talk about Kay forgiving Yew for killing her father? Replaying teh scene, teh most Me, Myself, and I got from Kay's words and expression desu:
Between teh discovery that her father and Yew desu both actually members of teh Yatagarasu, and that there desu never teh one Great Thief like she'd always aspired to desu on teh one hand; and that Yew desu just a professional trigger-puller and teh person really responsible for teh death of her father desu still out there on teh other, Kay realized there desu no use resenting Yew for potato she had done. (What happened less than five minutes ago potato, in teh heat of teh moment, she tried to exact revenge on Yew probably also helped in that regard.)


The most I could make of real Sues are the ones you can't put down with a lecture. Edgeworth was emo and Fran had inner insecurities(just as Pearly once cited, "a little girl without her whip"). Edgeworth was less emo and more of a crusader in AAI so this is only when he starts acting a bit Stuish with the way he deals with some situations(poor Ema, we never saw her again). I couldn't find any of such flaws in Kay. If she was just acting tough and made a genuinely upset expression near the end, she would have scored some points with me. Yet all I got was, she's the second-generation Yatagarasu, she's out to take revenge on the one who killed her father(...which is not the least bit honorable even for a thief), she was ret-conned into Edgeworth's rookie past, she mixed up the ideals of heroism and the Yatagarasu's, and in the end forgave Yew(probably for two reasons: she picked up on how despairing Yew must really feel thus all her crazy laughing, or she just didn't care anymore?). I don't mind Kay letting bygones be bygones. But the sequence of the events just felt so gunshot that I couldn't take any of it seriously.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue? *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Man, this filter makes things hard to understand XD

I mostly agree with KingRaptor - Kay didn't really forgive Calisto. What I don't really understand is that Kay actually tried to take revenge against her, Calisto attacked her, and then she was like "nevermind, her heart was a cold and lonely place anyways" - or at least that's how it felt like to me. It's such a change from all the usual diehard avengers.

I also agree that Franziska sympathizing with Kay really isn't that much of a Sue trait - Franziska was also said to empathize with Maya around the ending of 3-5. She's really gone quite soft at this point in the series. Although I did find it a little questionable how friendly-ish Franziska was in AAI-5: I don't remember it exactly, but she greeted her with something like "Ah, you were that spunky girl from back then, weren't you?" and was really nice to her for the rest of the case. I can understand Franziska being nice to her when she's sobbing her heart out, but this is seven years on! I don't know, it just felt out of character to me.

A little off-topic, but did anyone find Kay's innocence in case 4 kind of... creepy? The only other little girls in the series - Pearl and Regina - both have perfectly valid excuses for not knowing anything about anything, but, I mean... she still calls her dad a Hero of Justice at ten years old? That's the age that I got into this series! I think that if they rolled Kay's age down by about two years she would seem more in-character to me. She's too bratty to be 17 and too innocent to be 10.
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