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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Kay is, like, the best female sidekick supporting character just because she is more - and more consistently - helpful and competent than Maya, Trucy, or Pearl; Mary Sues be damned.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
Let's see. So far the reason why I don't like Kay is the blatant favoritism. It feels like one of those characters that's been put into a story revolving around them in order to put a certain main character in the middle of it. I couldn't take her seriously either. Looking back, Maya holds the spot for Best Teen Girl Sidekick because she's childish(but just actually kind of insane) but mostly mature, and smart too. I didn't take to Ema at first but I liked her at the end because of the grief that overtook her near the ending of the case. Trucy not so much. Kay...too bad. I ended up sighing a lot when Kay jumped the "we can do it!" train in case 5 and everyone's moods did a 180, and on top of that, she didn't DO much up till that point!

Bottom line: Having a hyper teenage girl like Kay with Edgeworth doesn't work. It just doesn't. The people who were suggesting the idea of Kay and Shih-na switching places as assistants appealed to me more than the canon version. Edgeworth's mature, more mature than our Nicky Boy. And he deserves a woman, not a loli. </my two cents>


Honestly, I think Edgeworth did just fine with Franziska and Gumshoe. Gumshoe's kind of an adult male Maya as far as personality goes, and Franziska is actually pretty smart as a partner, just not as imaginative as Edgeworth. Gumshoe-Edgeworth reminded me of Nick-Maya and was great for comedic relief, but Franziska-Edgeworth was more of a mismatched buddy cop thing, where Franziska was the by-the-books investigator who was perfectly competent but didn't have much of an imagination and Edgeworth was really slipping into Phoenix's shoes and being the intuitive guy with crazy leaps of logic that turn out to be true more often than not. There were a few times where I felt that Franziska was being dumbed-down by the writers so she wouldn't get to the truth before Edgeworth did (because Edgeworth always has to wait for player input before he says something, but there were some things obvious enough that it seemed odd that Franny didn't notice), but most of those were when Franziska had the excuse of being 13.

As for Kay, she didn't work with Edgeworth as well as Franziska or Gumshoe, but she wasn't exactly game-breaking. I didn't mind her, but I wasn't a fan either. AAI2 should be all Edgey-Franny all the time. Not necessarily as a romantic couple or anything (I personally don't see it), they just have some amazing lines when they're together.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
Kay is, like, the best female sidekick supporting character just because she is more - and more consistently - helpful and competent than Maya, Trucy, or Pearl; Mary Sues be damned.


That pretty well sums up how I feel, I didn't think there was anything wrong with Kay. She's not my favorite assistant, for sure, but she was just fine.

I still like Trucy better though.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Now that I think about it again, Kay isn't that bad of a character. I still don't like her. I prefer Maya over her. I mean I tried to look past the fact her and Maya will never be the same and I should never compare them together but Kay is overall useless. Sure, she's got the Little Thief but what else has she got? She just comes across as bratty to me. I guess some of you may look at it as lighthearted joking (it really irritated me when she's like, 'Oh, I'm gonna steal your role, hehe!' act. It's not cute AT ALL.) ... but she wasn't funny. Most of the comedy provided was from Edgeworth and Gumshoe.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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<more two cents>

Give me back my Edgey-Gumshoe love, dammit!

It was also mentioned before that teen girl sidekicks are kind of overused, and I have to agree. :( But what I really didn't like was most likely, her unceasing hyperness. I would've accepted it quietly if she was 14 or 15 like Trucy. But girls at her age are usually a lot more serious and less....I don't know.....naive and zesty. She doesn't have to be as serious as Franny, but just as level-headed. On that note, I felt Franny's presence as a bold woman dissipating as the game progressed. Kay was also stubborn and refuses to see the truthfully contradicting idea of a vigilante being anything but a trustworthy person. Vigilantes have been rulebreakers ever since the beginning of time, and they're mostly self-justified and use underhanded means to get their way. Even Badd and Edgeworth know that much. In other words, she was like a total kid. x.x And nothing will change her mind. Who knows what Kay will be like in her 30's? Unchanged? My god.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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bonjourpanda wrote:
Now that I think about it again, Kay isn't that bad of a character. I still don't like her. I prefer Maya over her. I mean I tried to look past the fact her and Maya will never be the same and I should never compare them together but Kay is overall useless. Sure, she's got the Little Thief but what else has she got?


Um, a lot more than Maya. She doesn't do anything very useful except channel her older and more experienced sister; if anyone should receive credit, it's Mia because she's the one being directly involved in Phoenix's most dire situations and helping him out of jam, not a teenage girl who's been kidnapped and framed a lot more than a thief who can recreate crime scenes and is almost always on the same train of thought as the lead protagonist.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Icarus wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
Let's see. So far the reason why I don't like Kay is the blatant favoritism. It feels like one of those characters that's been put into a story revolving around them in order to put a certain main character in the middle of it. I couldn't take her seriously either. Looking back, Maya holds the spot for Best Teen Girl Sidekick because she's childish(but just actually kind of insane) but mostly mature, and smart too. I didn't take to Ema at first but I liked her at the end because of the grief that overtook her near the ending of the case. Trucy not so much. Kay...too bad. I ended up sighing a lot when Kay jumped the "we can do it!" train in case 5 and everyone's moods did a 180, and on top of that, she didn't DO much up till that point!

Bottom line: Having a hyper teenage girl like Kay with Edgeworth doesn't work. It just doesn't. The people who were suggesting the idea of Kay and Shih-na switching places as assistants appealed to me more than the canon version. Edgeworth's mature, more mature than our Nicky Boy. And he deserves a woman, not a loli. </my two cents>


Honestly, I think Edgeworth did just fine with Franziska and Gumshoe. Gumshoe's kind of an adult male Maya as far as personality goes, and Franziska is actually pretty smart as a partner, just not as imaginative as Edgeworth. Gumshoe-Edgeworth reminded me of Nick-Maya and was great for comedic relief, but Franziska-Edgeworth was more of a mismatched buddy cop thing, where Franziska was the by-the-books investigator who was perfectly competent but didn't have much of an imagination and Edgeworth was really slipping into Phoenix's shoes and being the intuitive guy with crazy leaps of logic that turn out to be true more often than not. There were a few times where I felt that Franziska was being dumbed-down by the writers so she wouldn't get to the truth before Edgeworth did (because Edgeworth always has to wait for player input before he says something, but there were some things obvious enough that it seemed odd that Franny didn't notice), but most of those were when Franziska had the excuse of being 13.

As for Kay, she didn't work with Edgeworth as well as Franziska or Gumshoe, but she wasn't exactly game-breaking. I didn't mind her, but I wasn't a fan either. AAI2 should be all Edgey-Franny all the time. Not necessarily as a romantic couple or anything (I personally don't see it), they just have some amazing lines when they're together.


Seconded, every word. One thing I did notice is that Kay's a lot smarter than other sidekicks without pushing it too far, but still Franzy and Gumshoe as sidekicks all the way.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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I don't hate Kay, but I don't like her either. She's just... not special. I mean, it's the fourth time they have done this genki girl sidekick thing. Can't they just get over it? Man, I would have loved it if it was just Gumshoe as the main partner. But no, instead we get ANOTHER Maya clone.
Sure, she's more useful than her, but she's still a clone. I can see why some people think she's a Mary Sue, though that's not the main thing I dislike about her. It's her damn personality. Get over this archetype already, Capcom.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Personally I thought Kay was funnier than Maya and more interesting that Trucy. So I liked her a lot.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I really liked Kay! And I wasnt much of a fan off Trucy or Maya - Kay seemed to be alot smarter and had a bit more personality than the average bear teen sidekick. I really liked the interactions between the characters.
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I actually thought I was going to dislike Kay more than I actually did. In the end, I was kind of like "mehh" to her.

I limited myself from seeing too much from before the game was released, but I did see previews here and there, so I knew she was going to be in the game before playing it. And instantly I spotted her to be the Maya clone. And she seemed pretty annoying just based on those first impressions, and it just seemed like she'd have no place next to Edgeworth at all, so I predicted myself finding a lot of angst against her.

As it turned out, I thought the explanation as to how she was able to tag along in case 3 was at least acceptable (Edgeworth wasn't ever in "control" of the investigation, so he had no power to stop Kay. As far as Lang was concerned, he probably thought leaving Kay with Edgeworth would've been fine). Then, because of her connection to Edgeworth in case 4, it made sense that Edgeworth would allow her to tag along at the embassy. Although, I never thought that there was a good reason for her to EVER replace Gumshoe, so, I felt Edgeworth was a little too accepting of her being as involved in case 5 as she was.

And Capcom, Little Thief is just dumb. Aside from the semantics of the techonology, all the "simulation" does is help someone with an exessively poor imagination, something which Edgeworth shouldn't have, and something that I would think Edgeworth would look at himself as "above" using. I could see Little Thief being useful for the purposes that it was intended for, i.e. to help a thief simulate a heist, because it's then a predictive tool. Practice makes perfect, as they say. However, Little Thief serves absolutely no purpose as a tool of hindsight, unless you're just dumb.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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hannedog wrote:
And Capcom, Little Thief is just dumb. Aside from the semantics of the techonology, all the "simulation" does is help someone with an exessively poor imagination, something which Edgeworth shouldn't have, and something that I would think Edgeworth would look at himself as "above" using. I could see Little Thief being useful for the purposes that it was intended for, i.e. to help a thief simulate a heist, because it's then a predictive tool. Practice makes perfect, as they say. However, Little Thief serves absolutely no purpose as a tool of hindsight, unless you're just dumb.


So, I'm dumb for using a tool that was designed with the player in mind? Little Thief helps the player re-envision the crime scene as it was at a particular point in time and it's often used when more than one person is around. Remember, Little Thief is a hologram projection tool so anyone within it's area of projection can see the crime scene as well. It's a much more helpful tool for convincing people who can jump inside a person's head and experience their thoughts first-hand - which is impossible anyway - or for inspecting crime scenes that are inaccessible, like the Haunted House in Episode 3.
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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
So, I'm dumb for using a tool that was designed with the player in mind? Little Thief helps the player re-envision the crime scene as it was at a particular point in time and it's often used when more than one person is around. Remember, Little Thief is a hologram projection tool so anyone within it's area of projection can see the crime scene as well. It's a much more helpful tool for convincing people who can jump inside a person's head and experience their thoughts first-hand - which is impossible anyway - or for inspecting crime scenes that are inaccessible, like the Haunted House in Episode 3.


I'm saying Edgeworth wouldn't need a "tool" like that -- it would just be a waste of time for him; he could figure the crime scene out faster just by examining it. I think Agent Lang makes this point as well. The only reason why Lang was "wrong" was because Little Theif did the impossible with that Haunted House...

What I mean is that the only exception would be where LT would be useful would be where you can't actually examine that scence, as in the haunted house... however, unless you were already there beforehand uploading the schematics, the device is useless... How can a such a simulator recreate the inside of that haunted house with any accuracy? I'm sorry, but blueprints don't tell you what the walls look like, or where mirrors are going to be, etc. What was hilarious about it is that they uploaded the building schmatics based on blueprints, yet this didn't include the secret mirror wall, even though through all the other details that mirror wall would have obviously been in the blueprints.

Like I said, for the purposes something the Little Theif would be designed for, it's an ok gadget. For helping out Edgeworth on crime scenes, it's stupid.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Considering it was an amusement park attraction, not a regular building, the blueprint might actually have details such as where the mirrors are what the walls look like. (And while the blueprints should have the sliding mirror wall, that is more of a contradiction than Kay being a sue.)
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Quote:
How can a such a simulator recreate the inside of that haunted house with any accuracy? I'm sorry, but blueprints don't tell you what the walls look like, or where mirrors are going to be, etc.


I think the MST3K mantra needs to be recited here; it's only a game.

Quote:
What was hilarious about it is that they uploaded the building schematics based on blueprints, yet this didn't include the secret mirror wall, even though through all the other details that mirror wall would have obviously been in the blueprints.


Looking back, I do find that a bit suspect. Unless, of course, it was a fairly recent addition to the haunted house, and thus the original blueprints did not contain it...or something. Eh, nothing to get too fussy over.


She was alright, Kay. At times I was suspect (gaining such friendship with Gumshoe for example), but when I just thought about the run of the series so far, I figured she wasn't doing anything too OP; (for example, Gumshoe really likes kids, so it's expected that he'll gain friendship with Kay).
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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hannedog wrote:
Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
So, I'm dumb for using a tool that was designed with the player in mind? Little Thief helps the player re-envision the crime scene as it was at a particular point in time and it's often used when more than one person is around. Remember, Little Thief is a hologram projection tool so anyone within it's area of projection can see the crime scene as well. It's a much more helpful tool for convincing people who can jump inside a person's head and experience their thoughts first-hand - which is impossible anyway - or for inspecting crime scenes that are inaccessible, like the Haunted House in Episode 3.


I'm saying Edgeworth wouldn't need a "tool" like that -- it would just be a waste of time for him; he could figure the crime scene out faster just by examining it. I think Agent Lang makes this point as well. The only reason why Lang was "wrong" was because Little Theif did the impossible with that Haunted House...

What I mean is that the only exception would be where LT would be useful would be where you can't actually examine that scence, as in the haunted house... however, unless you were already there beforehand uploading the schematics, the device is useless... How can a such a simulator recreate the inside of that haunted house with any accuracy? I'm sorry, but blueprints don't tell you what the walls look like, or where mirrors are going to be, etc. What was hilarious about it is that they uploaded the building schmatics based on blueprints, yet this didn't include the secret mirror wall, even though through all the other details that mirror wall would have obviously been in the blueprints.

Like I said, for the purposes something the Little Theif would be designed for, it's an ok gadget. For helping out Edgeworth on crime scenes, it's stupid.


And, as I also said, it's a helpful tool for convincing people about the events that transpired at the crime scene at a designated point in time. Why would Edgeworth deny the use of a legal tool that could help him move closer to the truth while simultaneously convincing the people who doubt his hypotheses? It makes little sense that he wouldn't use the tool whenever he saw fit.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Mr. Bear Jew wrote:
And, as I also said, it's a helpful tool for convincing people about the events that transpired at the crime scene at a designated point in time. Why would Edgeworth deny the use of a legal tool that could help him move closer to the truth while simultaneously convincing the people who doubt his hypotheses? It makes little sense that he wouldn't use the tool whenever he saw fit.

Why would Edgeworth deny the use of a legal tool? I told you why. It's slower and more cumbersome. It's quicker for Edgeworth to just use his imagination and then explain it out in words. In other words, it's a waste of time. Sure, it's "cool." So what? Investigators are about speed and accuracy, of which Little Theif assists them with neither. Speed is definitely not assisted, and accuracy can only be reduced. Again, Agent Lang has the same thoughts on the matter, so clearly the writers knew that LT was a bit of a suspect game device. But they had those bits in there anyway because they were "cool." I didn't buy it.

The only time things ever really got confusing in terms of visualization was with the "which side of the head did Edgeworth get hit on, and what dominant hand does that make the attacker?" I suspect this line of logic was the inspiration behind LT in the first place. Well, anyway, that line of logic already been pointed out to be contradictory. In short, LT is a waste of time; I'd be happy if it never showed up again.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I liked the Crime Recreation in Apollo Justice, it was easily the best new feature, so I liked the Little Thief in Ace Attorney Investigations despite how screamingly unlikely such a device is. (I've taken a few 3d Modeling Classes and am going for a minor. It's fun, but it's difficult, and a device that can instantly simulate buildings and dead bodies is about as ridiculous and impossible as, say, channeling dead spirits for legal help.

But why does it make a difference if the device makes no damn sense? The segments were pretty fun, and it's an anime lawyer game, so I can suspend disbelief a bit.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Icarus wrote:
But why does it make a difference if the device makes no damn sense? The segments were pretty fun, and it's an anime lawyer game, so I can suspend disbelief a bit.


I agree if the device doesn't make much sense to not worry about it -- I am not really trying to consider the semantics of the technology. But, I just think it's a tad out of character for Edgeworth to really use the device. I think, like Agent Lang, he'd find it a waste of time.

Secondly, I didn't find the segments very "fun" insofar as they were essentially the same thing as a real crime scene, except with some digitized manniquans standing about. Meanwhile the whole time you've got this thought in the back of your head that this is all just ridiculous.

The only time I felt this was somewhat useful was with visualizing what side of the head Edgeworth got hit on, but, if the semantics of such a line of argument are going to be so convoluted as that that they require the help of a visualizer like LT (they couldn't really pull it off convincingly, due to the contradiction pointed out on these forums), perhaps they shouldn't go for such lines of arguments that require visualizers at all in the first place.
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hannedog wrote:
I agree if the device doesn't make much sense to not worry about it -- I am not really trying to consider the semantics of the technology. But, I just think it's a tad out of character for Edgeworth to really use the device. I think, like Agent Lang, he'd find it a waste of time.

Secondly, I didn't find the segments very "fun" insofar as they were essentially the same thing as a real crime scene, except with some digitized manniquans standing about. Meanwhile the whole time you've got this thought in the back of your head that this is all just ridiculous.

The only time I felt this was somewhat useful was with visualizing what side of the head Edgeworth got hit on, but, if the semantics of such a line of argument are going to be so convoluted as that that they require the help of a visualizer like LT (they couldn't really pull it off convincingly, due to the contradiction pointed out on these forums), perhaps they shouldn't go for such lines of arguments that require visualizers at all in the first place.


Since the biggest defining feature of AAI:ME was that you could walk around and examine things personally, having a visualizer like LT so you can walk around and examine things makes a lot of sense from a gameplay perspective. It wouldn't be necessary in a game like Apollo Justice, where the recreations in the first two cases didn't need to be holographic projections you could walk around, but in a game like Miles Edgeworth, something you can walk around is a bit more in tune with the core gameplay.

I suppose that doesn't mean you have to like it, and it's too bad you didn't, but I enjoyed it, and we're probably not going to be able to convince each other.
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Icarus wrote:
Since the biggest defining feature of AAI:ME was that you could walk around and examine things personally, having a visualizer like LT so you can walk around and examine things makes a lot of sense from a gameplay perspective. It wouldn't be necessary in a game like Apollo Justice, where the recreations in the first two cases didn't need to be holographic projections you could walk around, but in a game like Miles Edgeworth, something you can walk around is a bit more in tune with the core gameplay.

I suppose that doesn't mean you have to like it, and it's too bad you didn't, but I enjoyed it, and we're probably not going to be able to convince each other.


I'm not trying to sway people from changing whether or not they liked LT. I'm just saying that, given it's a little far fetched in the first place, LT doesn't serve much of a purpose. Yes, it makes sense that you can "walk around and examine things." However, LT doesn't serve to enhance this very much compared to just observing it "in reality" (or "in situ" if you want to bust out some Latin... note that in situ does NOT mean "in reality"....). Thus, I viewed LT as nothing more than just a gimmick... whether you like that or not, that's up to you.
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This is getting off topic, but I don't see how Edgeworth making use of Little Thief while it's around is out of character or otherwise not worth his time. He's not a crime solving computer; even in the first case when they didn't have it he still "recreated" the crime scene by putting files back and replacing bodies to better visualize the scene, and to a lesser extent in case 2. Especially for a prosecutor who is used to having to present his case to a court anyway, I'm sure he was wishing he'd had his hands on something that useful earlier (even if it meant having to put up with its owner, hahaha).
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I don't think Kay is much more of a Mary Sue then Maya. I feel like all of the people complaining about her are just shoving all of their anger that X wasn't Edgeworth's partner instead(Besides, Franzy is your partner in most of Case 2, 4, and 5.)

Anyways, My main defense is filled with spoilers.

Spoiler: THE WHOLE GAME
Kay has lots of personality, She's a 17 year old girl that acts like a stubborn child who doesn't want to grow up and out of her childish Robin hood fantasy's. Because she believes that by doing so she is making herself the living legacy of her Father. Edgeworth was the one that convicted her fathers murderer so she looked up to him and wanted to help him. And Edgeworth keeps trying to get rid of Kay until you go to the stadium and he discovers that she can be useful. Then at the end when she reminds him about the second KG-8 incident, he decides to work with her to finish his unfinished first case. However in Case 5 Kay starts to realize deep down inside that she needs to start to grow up, but she refuses to because she still doesn't want to lose her childish Yatagarasu fantasy and therefore her fathers legacy. When she learns the truth about the Yatagarasu her fantasy about the Yatagarasu is false and she is hit by a sudden realization of seriousness. She starts to try and mature but obviously you don't grow up over a matter of hours. She gives the hair sticks to Edgeworth because to her they symbolize Calisto Yew and by giving the them to Edgeworth she feels she can stay in her fantasy where the Yatagarasu is just her father for a little longer. But that isn't the case.

I feel that if she ever appears in another game, That she would be a bit more mature now that she no longer clings to her childishness to protect herself. The thing is, Kay isn't your partner for the majority of the game, Little kid Kay isn't ever your partner. She's only your partner for case 3 and some parts of case 5.

What I find strange is that Edgeworth acts like the second KG-8 never even happened until Kay gives him the ruined cravat, and then SUDDENLY it's something he thought about every day for 7 years that he couldn't wait to solve. Something he "Could never forget" despite forgetting until then. THAT'S what I find strange.

Kay had two daddies. Trucy had THREE daddies. Clearly Trucy is the winner.
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Croik wrote:
This is getting off topic, but I don't see how Edgeworth making use of Little Thief while it's around is out of character or otherwise not worth his time. He's not a crime solving computer; even in the first case when they didn't have it he still "recreated" the crime scene by putting files back and replacing bodies to better visualize the scene, and to a lesser extent in case 2. Especially for a prosecutor who is used to having to present his case to a court anyway, I'm sure he was wishing he'd had his hands on something that useful earlier (even if it meant having to put up with its owner, hahaha).


I think the case 1 example kind of proves my point. How would have Little Theif really enhanced the investigation with the bookshelf in case 1? I mean, it's not like LT just reads your mind and automatically switches the scene accordingly. You have to move the books in real life. You have to move them in LT. What's the point? Either way, Edgeworth's partner is doing the labor :edgeworth: Plus, there's the additional setup time of getting the scene into LT. To me, as it was presented in the game, LT seemed gimmicky and, for the situations presented, didn't seem like something Edgeworth would take the time to bother with... I see him reacting like Agent Lang did to it. That's just me I guess.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Spoiler: My reactions to Kay Faraday over the course of the game
Case 1 and 2
"Hmm, when will we get to meet this Kay Faraday character? I'm sure she'll be interesting."

Case 3
"GODDAMN BITCH, YOU'RE ANNOYING"
"NO REALLY, YOU'RE SERIOUSLY FIVE TIMES MORE ANNOYING THAN MAYA EVER WAS, YOU'RE MAKING RUNNING INTO BOTH MEEKINS AND OLDBAG WITHIN AN HOUR SEEM ALMOST TOLERABLE BY COMPARISON"
"Okay, that Little Thief gadget seems pretty useful, but would you mind not elbowing Ema out of her precious cameo time?"
"...You're still annoying. Someone take away your stimulants."
Though I got really interested when she handed the cloth back to Edgeworth...

Case 4
Not much to say on this one. She's a ten year old girl who's just been orphaned, it'd be pretty crass to say anything bad about her.
Besides, "Uncle Badd" was a pretty awesome moment. Almost as awesome as her literally kicking Edgey's ass.

Case 5
"Oh damn, I've succumbed to the charms of your oversized grin :("
It actually felt pretty good first saving her from wrongful arrest by Shih-na, then bringing her father's murderer to justice.

The ending photo was really tacky, though.

Little Thief:
Spoiler: Case 3
Little Thief recreations also help prevent mistakes/oversights that might result from simply imagining the crime scene would; for instance, even Edgeworth might well not have noticed that at the Stadium crime scene, one of the badger kidnappers was clipping into the stage as it was. Though that whole part turned out to be a red herring anyway...

Seeing as Edgeworth doesn't have 99 Interpol agents and one MIB to do the hard work for him at the stadium and later ended up barred from the ghost house, physically recreating the crime scene in both instances wasn't viable. LT provided the alternative, much like what simulators are used for in real life.

Regarding realism, while LT's capabilities are certainly exaggerated (you can input a complex building plan into a Pocket PC with just three button presses and no portable scanner or anything, Kay? Really?), it certainly makes more sense than a bracelet that fits so tightly it can "detect" the most subtle involuntary muscle twitches yet manages to not interfere with normal hand movement. At least the Magatama had the decency to tell us up front "It's magic!"

As for swapping Kay and Shih-na, I can't say I see that working. Shih-na's cold efficiency overlaps with Edgeworth's too much, and can any of you seriously imagine Kay smoothly sliding in to hand Agent Lang a scroll for when he forgets a certain bit of Lang Zi's wisdom, or performing their double finger point/reverse David Caruso Maneuver?

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And as far as Franziska's reaction to her goes I'm actually GLAD that she doesn't take the "Just Whip it" approach with Kay because Franny could use some development in the not whipping department. That, and Franny only really whips people out of the "Gumshoe-Edgeworth-Judge-Opponent in Court" range when they make her really angry...

She doesn't whip women, I noticed.

She does whip Ini Miney in 2-2 IIRC, though that's because Ini Miney is so aggravating to everyone.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Ema (case 1-5)>Kay>Trucy>Maya

I could discuss why I feel this way, but its nothing that hasn't already been discussed ad-nauseum over the years. All I will say is that many fans give the original game way too much credit as far as character design. Larry, Sal, Oldbag, Lotta etc... were really all terrible characters but the original game was so unique and charming that people fell (arguably too much) in love with them.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Udgey wrote:
Ema (case 1-5)>Kay>Trucy>Maya

I could discuss why I feel this way, but its nothing that hasn't already been discussed ad-nauseum over the years. All I will say is that many fans give the original game way too much credit as far as character design. Larry, Sal, Oldbag, Lotta etc... were really all terrible characters but the original game was so unique and charming that people fell (arguably too much) in love with them.


I'll give you Sal and Lotta, but Larry is awesome and Oldbag has her moments (although not enough moments to justify how much she's used IMO).
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Icarus wrote:
Udgey wrote:
Ema (case 1-5)>Kay>Trucy>Maya

I could discuss why I feel this way, but its nothing that hasn't already been discussed ad-nauseum over the years. All I will say is that many fans give the original game way too much credit as far as character design. Larry, Sal, Oldbag, Lotta etc... were really all terrible characters but the original game was so unique and charming that people fell (arguably too much) in love with them.


I'll give you Sal and Lotta, but Larry is awesome and Oldbag has her moments (although not enough moments to justify how much she's used IMO).


Thats fair enough. Kinda goes with my point though that these characters are used so much because fans want all of the cameos from the original series/game over and over.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Blaargh yes! I agree. Why couldn't we get someone with more substance as a sidekick? Anyone? Oldbag? Cammy Meele? Gumshoe transformed into a teenage girl by some strange spiritual artifact?

Interactions would have been far more interesting, right, Edgey-poo? *grins*

.... pal?
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>,> How did this topic go from--ah who cares? I'm about to bring up something close to unrelated anyway.

Concerning Little Thief. Whatever happened to sketchpads? And if a recreation of the crime scene by Little Thief is needed just to get the cogs turning, Polly must have a stronger imagination(proof of it in his first case). I won't denounce the usefulness of LT but it really is much like the vibrating electric toothbrush: useful but overuseful. And I'd like to hear more details about LT's functions since there was too little information on how it works. The Magatama was a spiritual object that helped Nick progress throughout the cases by seeing the secrets that people hide within themselves. The Perceive System was...uhhhh...let's just say it would've been better if the twitches were more subtle like in the corners of the witnesses' eyes or the tightening of neck muscles. Or better yet, used against professional liars. LT was a tool for, like, kids. I bet Star Wars younglings would get a kick out of sparring with a holographic image of Darth Vader or the Proto Badger swinging a sword at them. And the blueprint argument had a point: I don't know many blueprints detailing furniture arrangements because I thought they just focused on structure, not decor.

It's quite a plothole, and I wish Kay would get down from her thief's high long enough to have explained how she inputs the data and produces a floating holographic simulation, without having to hold up LT the whole time. Such strange and suspicious technology. And here I was hoping that the "real owner" of LT would show up as the final boss, claiming that Old Boy Byrne stole his gadget to become a hero and that the final boss is actually Kay's grandpa and that he was the idiot that put crazy ideas into his idealistic son's mind, which made him want to become a "Hero of Justice" that wants to put bad guys away, making Byrne some kind of insane puritan that would in the end condemn him as the scapegoat of a political killing--*STOPS*

Okay, I just veered off-topic! XD; Sorry.

Anyway, I really hoped to give Kay a chance from the start because I thought that even though she gave a first impression of the perky and not-so-serious assistant, in the end she'd learn a few hard truths and be a lot more serious, and also, look meaningful about her change of heart. It always turned out that way for me with Ema and Maya. But I was met with disappointment in the end. Don't ask me. I just really didn't get that deep vibe from her. She was actually kind of shallow, incapable of portraying true pain the way Ema and Maya did. Well Maya didn't do too well but she definitely did better than Kay. Trucy's crying sprite doesn't count either btw, nope. :X
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Opposite of what most people say (that if we know more about Kay, we will be able to accept her better), I actually thought Kay was okay in case 3, 4, and 5 start... until the mid to end part of case 5, where I found her seriously grating, enough to feel like strangling her whenever she had a line. I just hated her passionately, something that I very rarely feel from fictional characters.

I believe that the main issue is her age. She's 17 but yet she's so selfish, she doesn't listen to others.
Spoiler:
Don't run head long to a burning building! Nope, not listening. Stop yapping about being Yatagarasu while I'm busy refuting Shih-na's incriminating arguments against you. Nope. Don't get provocated by enemy. Nope, still not listening.


Of the perky female side characters list, she's probably the only perky sidekick that shamelessly drags others into her own mess without care. I believe that the other sidekick will be more remorseful when they got someone taking bullets for them due to their own stupidity. Maya has bad luck after bad luck, but at least she knows how much of a trouble she is.

In short, Kay is just so self centered, Mary Sue or not. I hate cleaning her mess after mess when trouble maker doesn't even care.

Just a personal opinion.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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p-kun wrote:
Opposite of what most people say (that if we know more about Kay, we will be able to accept her better), I actually thought Kay was okay in case 3, 4, and 5 start... until the mid to end part of case 5, where I found her seriously grating, enough to feel like strangling her whenever she had a line. I just hated her passionately, something that I very rarely feel from fictional characters.

I believe that the main issue is her age. She's 17 but yet she's so selfish, she doesn't listen to others.
Spoiler:
Don't run head long to a burning building! Nope, not listening. Stop yapping about being Yatagarasu while I'm busy refuting Shih-na's incriminating arguments against you. Nope. Don't get provocated by enemy. Nope, still not listening.


Of the perky female side characters list, she's probably the only perky sidekick that shamelessly drags others into her own mess without care. I believe that the other sidekick will be more remorseful when they got someone taking bullets for them due to their own stupidity. Maya has bad luck after bad luck, but at least she knows how much of a trouble she is.

In short, Kay is just so self centered, Mary Sue or not. I hate cleaning her mess after mess when trouble maker doesn't even care.

Just a personal opinion.


Now this is a valid gripe about the character. Her recklessness and selfishness are characteristics typical of teenagers, though. If anything, it just shows how adult Maya was.
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Spoiler: AAI-5
To be fair, she'd just found out for certain that Shih-na was the one who murdered her father (and at least two other people). It's not really a surprise that she'd be a bit caught up in the moment, and I don't think anyone was expecting Yew to create a hostage situation. As for the constant "the killer was a phony, I'm the REAL Yatagarasu!", well, being falsely accused of homicide tends to do that (she certainly could've handled it better, to be sure).

Running off after the supposed Yatagarasu into a burning building? She was just following the Dusky Bridge Precedent:

Spoiler: 3-5
I don't care if the already precarious bridge suspended 30 feet over a killer river is ON FIRE, I'm Superman Phoenix Wright and I'm crossing it anyway!

Yeah, she's hopelessly immature, but is anyone going to claim that 1-3 Maya (in particular) was any different?
Spoiler: AAI-3, 1-2
Incidentally, I just noticed the parallel between the start of AAI-3 and the end of 1-2: "I'm your new assistant whether you like it or not! Now let's go find some treasure/get some burgers!"

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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title

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Kartoon Kween wrote:
Now this is a valid gripe about the character. Her recklessness and selfishness are characteristics typical of teenagers, though. If anything, it just shows how adult Maya was.


Based on personal experience, Kay's selfishness is not typical of 17 year olds. I'll give it if she's 14 or below. I think Maya is more like a typical 17 year old.

KingRaptor wrote:
Spoiler: AAI-5
To be fair, she'd just found out for certain that Shih-na was the one who murdered her father (and at least two other people). It's not really a surprise that she'd be a bit caught up in the moment, and I don't think anyone was expecting Yew to create a hostage situation. As for the constant "the killer was a phony, I'm the REAL Yatagarasu!", well, being falsely accused of homicide tends to do that (she certainly could've handled it better, to be sure).

Running off after the supposed Yatagarasu into a burning building? She was just following the Dusky Bridge Precedent:

Spoiler: 3-5
I don't care if the already precarious bridge suspended 30 feet over a killer river is ON FIRE, I'm Superman Phoenix Wright and I'm crossing it anyway!

Yeah, she's hopelessly immature, but is anyone going to claim that 1-3 Maya (in particular) was any different?
Spoiler: AAI-3, 1-2
Incidentally, I just noticed the parallel between the start of AAI-3 and the end of 1-2: "I'm your new assistant whether you like it or not! Now let's go find some treasure/get some burgers!"


I fully realize that she has semi-justified reasons for most of her digging her own mess, but doing it multiple times in the span of a few hours is testing the limit of my patience.

Your comparison to Maya does not apply, at least to me. As I said, it's very rare for me to hate a fictional character. Maya being pushy and spoiled is not enough to make me snap. I'm replaying the first game, and just the fact that Maya tried to protect you from getting tasered by Von Karma in 1-4 (even though she failed) puts her miles above Kay.

As for Phoenix, the comparison does not apply well. Nick did that for Maya, not for himself (maybe we can say that people help others for their own sake, but I like to believe in human decency). I can sympathize with his recklessness much better than Kay.

I think what the game needs is some time for Kay to show more remorse and gratitude towards others (especially to Lang), just a couple of empty lines won't do IMHO. I guess the in-game time span for case 5 simply doesn't allocate much time for her character development. As I said before, I don't hate the fact that I have to cover for her mess (Maya has made bigger mess). It's the fact that Kay is so unrepentant and so ungrateful about it that pissed me off.
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p-kun wrote:
Kartoon Kween wrote:
Now this is a valid gripe about the character. Her recklessness and selfishness are characteristics typical of teenagers, though. If anything, it just shows how adult Maya was.


Based on personal experience, Kay's selfishness is not typical of 17 year olds. I'll give it if she's 14 or below. I think Maya is more like a typical 17 year old.

You mean based on your personal experience. From what I remember of high school, 17 year olds are pretty darn self-centered. I mean, I don't mean to generalize, but...

...actually, I do mean to generalize. Teenagers suck, lol.
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Kartoon Kween wrote:
p-kun wrote:
Kartoon Kween wrote:
Now this is a valid gripe about the character. Her recklessness and selfishness are characteristics typical of teenagers, though. If anything, it just shows how adult Maya was.


Based on personal experience, Kay's selfishness is not typical of 17 year olds. I'll give it if she's 14 or below. I think Maya is more like a typical 17 year old.

You mean based on your personal experience. From what I remember of high school, 17 year olds are pretty darn self-centered. I mean, I don't mean to generalize, but...

...actually, I do mean to generalize. Teenagers suck, lol.


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To be fair, Kay may have charged into the building because she knew what she was doing. I mean, she didn't get covered by falling debris, she spotted the killer, and found the body.
Spoiler: c5
It wasn't her fault that Shih-Nah had a framing plan concocted for whoever passed by. Heck, I think even if Kay hadn't showed up, Gumshoe being lost would have led to him being framed.

And anyone has to admit; standing up to a foreign war hero/ambassador/criminal with massive power when the one you were COUNTING ON to do the arguing for you has given up, and being confident enough about the things you're shoving in his face...that's ballsy. Maya was pretty brave to grab that bullet in 1-4 (not in the Ozymandias way!), but Kay turned out brave AND kinda smart.

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^If by "brave AND smart", you mean "reckless AND deus ex machina material", then yes. Edgeworth seems to have lost his pair in cases 3 and 5. (and half at 4) :gant:

Word to those above me who say Maya>Kay. :edgy:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
^If by "brave AND smart", you mean "reckless AND deus ex machina material", then yes. Edgeworth seems to have lost his pair in cases 3 and 5. (and half at 4) :gant:

She was a bit reckless, but then again, she was going after
Spoiler: c4
her father's murderer
so I think that would inspire some pretty hard feelings, and as Katana pointed out, she may have known what she was doing in there, and
Spoiler: c5
she couldn't have known Shih-na was planning on framing her (or whoever passed by).



As for Deus Ex Machina, not really. Everything she did was established previously.
Spoiler: c4+5
We saw her find Yew's perfume when looking for Yatagarasu's Key, and she knew how to preserve the fingerprints from her father, and had a good reason for preserving the fingerprints (to catch her father's killer).

And as for that time she stopped Quercus, she said that her father's journals (or the info about the journals on Little Thief) had bad info on him. Well, she did mention she learned her father was the Yatagarasu from reading his journal, and since the Yatagarasu was formed to take down the smuggling ring, it makes sense that there would be some dirt on the people he was trying to take down.


So I'm going to have to disagree with you about her being a DEM.
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Bad Player wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
^If by "brave AND smart", you mean "reckless AND deus ex machina material", then yes. Edgeworth seems to have lost his pair in cases 3 and 5. (and half at 4) :gant:

She was a bit reckless, but then again, she was going after
Spoiler: c4
her father's murderer
so I think that would inspire some pretty hard feelings, and as Katana pointed out, she may have known what she was doing in there, and
Spoiler: c5
she couldn't have known Shih-na was planning on framing her (or whoever passed by).



As for Deus Ex Machina, not really. Everything she did was established previously.
Spoiler: c4+5
We saw her find Yew's perfume when looking for Yatagarasu's Key, and she knew how to preserve the fingerprints from her father, and had a good reason for preserving the fingerprints (to catch her father's killer).

And as for that time she stopped Quercus, she said that her father's journals (or the info about the journals on Little Thief) had bad info on him. Well, she did mention she learned her father was the Yatagarasu from reading his journal, and since the Yatagarasu was formed to take down the smuggling ring, it makes sense that there would be some dirt on the people he was trying to take down.


So I'm going to have to disagree with you about her being a DEM.


The "reckless" is where she charges into a burning building(and miraculously not getting hurt, but who knows?), and charging at Shih-na's provocations about her father. Well, I understand the latter being done even though she should have listened to Edgeworth's warning...I think the problem here was none of the sprites moved to restrain her, lol. :gant: And to think Franny's whip could have been used to wrap around her leg and trip her over before trying anything.

The "DEM" bit is pointed right at the presence of Little Thief in her hands, recalling Case 3. I feel like Edgeworth could have been able to prove Lance's guilt w/o Little Thief. He just HAD to, idk. And I can't believe that someone as clever and as calculating as Alba gets tricked by a teenage girl with a bluff. He just fell for the lie without challenging her. And you know, I find anything she says hard to believe. Preserving fingerprints? Oooooh, how does that work?

..................................................No really, how does it work? Don't tell me you're not going to explain how? On the other hand *googles the stuff*, the most basic methods of preserving fingerprints is by either the use of fingerprint powder and special tape(heck, just clear tape would do it). Did we see any indication of either method used? No. Any iodine fuming and laser technology references made? No! So how the hell did she do it? Stuff the bottle into a plastic bag and refrigerate it for seven years? I'm not going to buy the excuse of, "the picture just didn't show it", because we could clearly examine the bottle. :meekins: And when the hell did she just realize that she could preserve the fingerprints? Must have been AFTER she put her own fingerprints all over the bottle.

It's not even just this. I could go on but this isn't a full-blown argument over anything big so I won't. It's been mentioned in the Case 5 discussion, and I've mentioned it myself already: "Don't give up guys, we can do it!" doesn't count as pep talk, UNLESS she starts pulling her own weight around instead of just tagging along with Edgey and being asked on the situation, and then making a few more "thieving" remarks along the way. :chinami:

And fake Yatagarasu or no, a girl who doesn't know martial arts or doesn't carry a taser(or a whip) chasing a fake, is no better off than that fake themselves, especially when said fake is most likely armed, dangerous, and laughing in your ear after getting suckered.

Well, she didn't laugh but you know what I mean.
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