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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler: AAI-5
And as for that time she stopped Quercus, she said that her father's journals (or the info about the journals on Little Thief) had bad info on him. Well, she did mention she learned her father was the Yatagarasu from reading his journal, and since the Yatagarasu was formed to take down the smuggling ring, it makes sense that there would be some dirt on the people he was trying to take down.


So I'm going to have to disagree with you about her being a DEM.

I'm going to have to disagree with you disagreeing about Kay being a DEM. It makes sense, sure, but it was still out of the blue with nothing leading up to it. On top of which
Spoiler: AAI-5
she was bluffing. There was nothing case-breaking in said journals, and we hear this from Kay. Bluffing is a skill she had never shown previously

making it quite the deus ex machina. Of course, it was one of 5 consecutive DEMs, so that may or may not excuse it.
Arti_Rei wrote:
Preserving fingerprints? Oooooh, how does that work?

..................................................No really, how does it work? Don't tell me you're not going to explain how?

Fingerprints are self-preserving. I believe someone in real life has lifted a perfect, decades-old print off of a piece of paper.

Arti_Rei wrote:
And when the hell did she just realize that she could preserve the fingerprints? Must have been AFTER she put her own fingerprints all over the bottle.

I think it may be a reason for those gloves she wears.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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GigaHand wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
Preserving fingerprints? Oooooh, how does that work?

..................................................No really, how does it work? Don't tell me you're not going to explain how?

Fingerprints are self-preserving. I believe someone in real life has lifted a perfect, decades-old print off of a piece of paper.


Any more details on that story? We like ebeedensh. :damon: (a little irony for using this smiley)

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Arti_Rei wrote:
And when the hell did she just realize that she could preserve the fingerprints? Must have been AFTER she put her own fingerprints all over the bottle.

I think it may be a reason for those gloves she wears.


When she was 10, she wasn't wearing gloves. That's why I'm being so nitpicky on the "preserving fingerprints" idea. But who knows? Maybe by luck, she never tampered with the owner's fingerprints on the bottle.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
GigaHand wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
And when the hell did she just realize that she could preserve the fingerprints? Must have been AFTER she put her own fingerprints all over the bottle.

I think it may be a reason for those gloves she wears.


When she was 10, she wasn't wearing gloves. That's why I'm being so nitpicky on the "preserving fingerprints" idea. But who knows? Maybe by luck, she never tampered with the owner's fingerprints on the bottle.


Well, Kay was already told by her father how to preserve fingerprints for several years, which I think makes it very likely that he also told her about being careful and not or barely touching important evidence...

or maybe it was just common-sense?
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Nemesis wrote:
Well, Kay was already told by her father how to preserve fingerprints for several years, which I think makes it very likely that he also told her about being careful and not or barely touching important evidence...

or maybe it was just common-sense?


Did he? I thought he just wrote a book with her about, "How not to talk to strangers, and punt-kick jerks with cravats while you're at it" :gant:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
Nemesis wrote:
Well, Kay was already told by her father how to preserve fingerprints for several years, which I think makes it very likely that he also told her about being careful and not or barely touching important evidence...

or maybe it was just common-sense?


Did he? I thought he just wrote a book with her about, "How not to talk to strangers, and punt-kick jerks with cravats while you're at it" :gant:


Well, yeah that too :P
but he also told her about the fingerprint-thing. When you are presenting the perfume to the Yatagarasu, Kay says at some point:

“I heard from my father, Byrne Faraday… …that if stored under the right conditions, a fingerprint can be preserved for decades.”
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Nemesis wrote:
Well, yeah that too :P
but he also told her about the fingerprint-thing. When you are presenting the perfume to the Yatagarasu, Kay says at some point:

“I heard from my father, Byrne Faraday… …that if stored under the right conditions, a fingerprint can be preserved for decades.”


That's too convenient for just trivial information =/

See I thought the guy wrote it into his journal, which would have helped that notion. But hearing it? Why would Byrne even tell his little girl about preserving fingerprints? Unless she, like, asked out of curiosity and took note of it in her own diary for whatever reason. I don't know, I just don't buy into a fingerprint lasting for that long. Which is probably why CSI takes measures and lifts them before they're wiped or have dust on them or something. I could try it on my old phone card, leave a good print there, and let it sit in my drawer for as much as five years and then check if my fingerprint's still there. :yuusaku:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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She may have been around for her mother's death so she's coped with losing a loved one before if it bothers you that much that she recovered from her father's death swiftly. Besides her recovery was merely her keeping a promise to her father, "Do not cry in front of Strangers" and so she may well have been tearing up inside.

Also had Badd drawn his gun she may have shot earlier, Badd shouted "Get down" or something I'm pretty certain, Edgey just froze up then Kay snapped him out of it.

Also Kay was raised by her father, I imagine she'd be staying with him at his office sometimes while he sorts out paperwork. Would be simple for him to be looking over fingerprints while a bored Kay goes "What's that daddy?" and then he explains. As for your question of whether fingerprints last decades or not in real life doesn't make Kay a Mary Sue...that information came from her father and as such it's canon in the game so don't blame her for the Deus Ex Machina there.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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If pulling out an audacious bluff with only mild supporting evidence in order to stall for time, so you can get back at someone is "DEM" material...though I fully admit I haven't heard that word before, and assume it to mean "something of a ditz"...
Shi-Long-Lang fits perfectly.
Spoiler: Case 5
The killer is...you! Franziska von Karma!

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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Katana wrote:
is "DEM" material...though I fully admit I haven't heard that word before, and assume it to mean "something of a ditz"...


DEM = Deus Ex Machina
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I'm too lazy to quote, but about arguing that Kay is a DEM...


There was stuff leading up to the journals. We found out from Kay that she learned Byrne was the Yatagarasu from his journals, and we had also learned that the point of the Yatagarasu was to take down the smuggling ring. It's a simple, logical step to assume that stuff about the smuggling ring would be in the journals. It wasn't a bluff; although it wouldn't prove Quercus was the criminal, it would still be bad for him. It may be a bit unbelievable, but it was very much referred to beforehand, and therefore isn't a DEM.

Little Thief may be a little of a DEM... but it's not as if Kay pulls it out at the last second of case 5, and uses it only once. It's no more of a DEM than the Magatama is.

Just to point out, Kay's mother didn't die. (At least not before case 4; after case 4, she goes to live with her mother.) However, she lived with her dad, and as Pierre pointed out, it really isn't that difficult to imagine a scenario where Kay could find out about preserving fingerprints. And even if her fingerprints got on the perfume bottle, Yew's would also still be there.

And AR, CSI takes fingerprints ASAP because (1) they need to ID them to find the criminal, and (2) they probably aren't going to afterwards store them in ideal conditions for preserving fingerprints. Just putting a card in your desk won't necessarily preserve the fingerprints, since it needs to be under the right conditions.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Since I joined this discussion late I'm going to shy away from the current DEM discussion a bit and address the purpose of the thread:

To be completely honest, Kay Faraday has a lot of Mary Sue qualities and other qualities that constitute poor characterization. Does this necessarily make her a Mary Sue, or a bad character? If you keep things in perspective, the answer is no.

GK/AAI is a spin-off game. It was created for one reason and one reason alone: to please fans. Every character, every cameo, every situation, and every snappy one-liner was contrived to make fans squee uncontrollably while keeping in line with Ace Attorney tradition.

Kay was designed with this in mind. In true Ace Attorney fashion, she's the token underaged genki girl sidekick, but as per her status as Edgey's assistant in his own gaiden game, she is a personification of what fans wanted. She's an escapist character: she gets tolerated enough to follow Edgeworth around, is able to tease him and undermine his pridefulness without ramifications, carries a device which he considers of great importance to help him fight crime, shares a deep personal connection to him through their respective tragic pasts, kicks and saves his butt both in one day, and gets to be Gumshoe's best friend.

Was she poorly executed? Yes. Do I hate her for it? No, because I realize and respect why she was poorly characterized. She was trapped between having a role the player would want to place themselves in, having fourth-wall reactions to her surroundings, and actually having tangible and consistent characterization. Being a well-rounded character was secondary to her raison d'être, so predictably her characterization suffered for it.
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You make a good point, Marshmello!

My theory was that Kay was created to lure in the male demographic. Capcom knew that a bunch of women were gonna buy the game because of Edgeworth, so they needed a cute girl in a short skirt to be his side kick. Maybe they thought that Franziska wasn't "cute" enough.

DEM, token genki girl, Mary Sue or not, I still like Kay. She's a part of the Ace Attorney package, and I'm shameless enough to like a character on the sole basis that s/he is cute. It's completely a matter of taste: you either think she's cute/funny, or you think she's annoying.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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pleadingeyes wrote:
.

So for Franziska to be all "You're so strong, Kay!" to some girl she just barely met, well, that's what Sues do to people.


hmmn, I dunno....Franziska does seem to be a wee bit less tsundere on women (Lotta Hart being the exception, of course). She's nice to Pearl and Adrian and stuff, but maybe that's a whole other kettle of lesb--I mean, um, fish. :hotti:

Personally I reckon they should have had Viola as a sidekick. Now that would be a sight worth seeing. :P
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I sadly have to agree I could be a part of the 'appealed-to' crowd. Hadn't so much considered the level they would be thinking of what fans expect. I'd really sort of prefer if the designers were thinking of wholly interesting and unique characters rather than just pleasing the existing fans. I like the characters because they're funny and interesting, not because I'm familiar with them. And heck, I'm sure even fans from the beginning were annoyed that people as inconsequential as Ema showed up...(not to say she's a bad character, but...one scene, for just footprints?)

I dunno. Now I'm going a little both ways. I will state I certainly wouldn't have minded Gumshoe being the sole companion. I think the guy deserves it.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Too lazy to quote the naysayers of my points so here's the list:

1) I haven't accused Kay for being a Mary Sue since that's too simplified an argument

2) Kay's mother can't be determined to be deceased, considering we hardly knew anything about her

3) It WAS a bluff. Edgeworth said so himself.

4) I point out the less-than-detailed explanations of the things occurring in AAI and the things Kay pulls out of nowhere(i.e. the 7-year old fingerprints).

5) I still stand by her becoming a DEM in at least 3 cases or just 2. I found Maya's acts of self-sacrifice at 1-4 to be a lot more admirable, noble and brave considering she couldn't do anything else as a spirit medium at that time, but as a person she did. :maya:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I for one can understand why Kay was introduced as a new assistant for Edgeworth. Sure Gumshoe and Franny are well-liked characters, but that won't make it possible for them to have a highly personal stake in a potential story-arc without introducing several retcons or so (like what happened with Phoenix and Mia back in PW:TT). With Kay, the writers were able to make character with the necessary personal stake without having fans ponder why a couple of established sidekick characters never mentioned such important aspects of their lives before.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Cordopia Over All wrote:
I for one can understand why Kay was introduced as a new assistant for Edgeworth. Sure Gumshoe and Franny are well-liked characters, but that won't make it possible for them to have a highly personal stake in a potential story-arc without introducing several retcons or so (like what happened with Phoenix and Mia back in PW:TT). With Kay, the writers were able to make character with the necessary personal stake without having fans ponder why a couple of established sidekick characters never mentioned such important aspects of their lives before.


You mean they don't ask where Kay came from, or they don't ask what was happening during 20-year old Edgeworth's time before his debuting trial? Sorry I'm slow today, so I can't understand what you mean.
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Arti_Rei wrote:
You mean they don't ask where Kay came from, or they don't ask what was happening during 20-year old Edgeworth's time before his debuting trial? Sorry I'm slow today, so I can't understand what you mean.

I was actually talking about why the writers came up with Kay's character. I guess my post was a little confusing..... :sadshoe:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Cordopia Over All wrote:
Arti_Rei wrote:
You mean they don't ask where Kay came from, or they don't ask what was happening during 20-year old Edgeworth's time before his debuting trial? Sorry I'm slow today, so I can't understand what you mean.

I was actually talking about why the writers came up with Kay's character. I guess my post was a little confusing..... :sadshoe:


No it's me. XD I tend to get confused sometimes, but I think I got your point. Kay was introduced into the game so that it would have a plot that connects the 5 cases, yes?
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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He's saying that if they made an overarching storyline, but didn't add in a new assistant, it would be difficult to tie in the existing characters (like Franzy and Gummy) into as much (as Kay was pretty tied in) because otherwise it wouldn't make sense that this stuff was never mentioned before.


@AR:
1) >_>
2) She was alive during case 4, and probably separated from Byrne at the time. That much we know, at least.
3) You're missing the point; his journals and what were in them was referenced before, and so they aren't a DEM.
4) It wasn't detailed, but at least we had a line saying she specifically preserved them, instead of just "Oh, I randomly held onto it and her fingerprints might just happen to still be on there!" and her father's occupation dealt with that sort of stuff. Did we ever get a detailed explanation of Maya's spirit channeling?
5) The defining point of a DEM is that it isn't introduced or referenced before. As I previously argued, the journals are referenced before, and so are not a DEM. Kay is really not a DEM in case 4; saving Edgey would be Mary Sue material if anything, and we know that she was running all over the courthouse looking for the key, so it's possible that she came into the courtroom just at that time. The only things that could be DEMs in case 3 are saving Edgey, since she hadn't been introduced, but she is on the cover, or Little Thief, but that's just as DEMish as Maya's spirit channeling in 1-2. (And before you say that Maya said she was a spirit medium, so it was introduced, Kay kept saying that she was the Yatagarasu, and introduced Little Thief as a tool of the Yatagarasu.)
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
3) You're missing the point; his journals and what were in them was referenced before, and so they aren't a DEM.


Kay herself said there's nothing extremely incriminating in the journal and on LT and that she just tricked Alba into thinking that. Alba fell for it = fail

Quote:
4) It wasn't detailed, but at least we had a line saying she specifically preserved them, instead of just "Oh, I randomly held onto it and her fingerprints might just happen to still be on there!" and her father's occupation dealt with that sort of stuff. Did we ever get a detailed explanation of Maya's spirit channeling?


If we get details on ballistic markings and luminol spray, why can't we hear about how she preserved the fingerprints? What I'm asking here is how exactly Kay did it, not that she needs to prove it. And in 2-2, you get to hear Pearly reciting the step-by-step procedure on the Kurain technique. The Spirit Severing Technique was also made known by Morgan Fey, which could hardly be a lie because violent spirits do tend to get out of hand and beyond the medium's control.

Quote:
5) The defining point of a DEM is that it isn't introduced or referenced before. As I previously argued, the journals are referenced before, and so are not a DEM. Kay is really not a DEM in case 4; saving Edgey would be Mary Sue material if anything, and we know that she was running all over the courthouse looking for the key, so it's possible that she came into the courtroom just at that time. The only things that could be DEMs in case 3 are saving Edgey, since she hadn't been introduced, but she is on the cover, or Little Thief, but that's just as DEMish as Maya's spirit channeling in 1-2. (And before you say that Maya said she was a spirit medium, so it was introduced, Kay kept saying that she was the Yatagarasu, and introduced Little Thief as a tool of the Yatagarasu.)


Coincidences are amazing. It's like fate. Something used as a backdoor excuse in stories during crucial moments. Maya's connection with Mia her sister could have been used as part of the reason I admit, but yes, that was also DEM material. (And I'm not getting what you're saying here).
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Quote:
Coincidences are amazing. It's like fate. Something used as a backdoor excuse in stories during crucial moments. Maya's connection with Mia her sister could have been used as part of the reason I admit, but yes, that was also DEM material. (And I'm not getting what you're saying here).


He's saying she's not really a Deus Ex Machina except when she was introduced, which I'd say is fair enough as she has to be introduced somehow why not be helpful. Plus sneaking into a building from a window is very thief-like and fitting her character no?
Also her having the Journals isn't a Deus Ex Machina as they were introduced and referenced before. Deus Ex Machina are 100% out of the blue guaranteed lifesavers. Her running around the courtroom also isn't a Deus Ex Machina as we know she was running all over the place that day, hell she'd entered the same room from the same point earlier on. Plus she knew her Uncle Badd was in there giving her further reason to go there.

Quote:
If we get details on ballistic markings and luminol spray, why can't we hear about how she preserved the fingerprints? What I'm asking here is how exactly Kay did it, not that she needs to prove it. And in 2-2, you get to hear Pearly reciting the step-by-step procedure on the Kurain technique. The Spirit Severing Technique was also made known by Morgan Fey, which could hardly be a lie because violent spirits do tend to get out of hand and beyond the medium's control.


Also Pearly is an 'expert' in her field. With fingerprint preservation Kay isn't exactly an expert, in fact I don't think any tests were carried out on that bottle, Yew's reaction was enough. Putting it simply....perhaps she KNEW how to preserve fingerprints from her father but couldn't describe the fine details of it. She knew the process but not the theory or science behind it. Her father gave her instructions but seeing as she was a child at the time probably didn't bother with boring sciency stuff. I don't see why it's important that she knows exact details about preserving fingerprints.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Arti_Rei wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
4) It wasn't detailed, but at least we had a line saying she specifically preserved them, instead of just "Oh, I randomly held onto it and her fingerprints might just happen to still be on there!" and her father's occupation dealt with that sort of stuff.


If we get details on ballistic markings and luminol spray, why can't we hear about how she preserved the fingerprints? What I'm asking here is how exactly Kay did it, not that she needs to prove it.


Those are just minor things in the game which don't really play such an important role in the game's story. So it's only natural that things like that don't get further or just briefly explained. I'm sure most of the players don't even think about it as much as you do or they don't care anyway.

This is actually the game's fault and not Kay's. I don't really get why you are bringing up this topic once again :/
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I can see why people think Kay is self-centered or a DEM, but a Mary-Sue? Please don't make me laugh.

Also, I love how people accuse Kay of being a sue yet Iris is not. *runs*
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Colour wrote:
I can see why people think Kay is self-centered or a DEM, but a Mary-Sue? Please don't make me laugh.

Also, I love how people accuse Kay of being a sue yet Iris is not. *runs*


But Iris is a purity!Sue, whereas if Kay is a sue, she's like a God-Mode!Sue.
[/semantics] :odoroki:

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In fandom, "canon sue" basically means "character I hated but the other characters liked." How dare characters in-game like a character I hated? They must be acting OOC! ;_;
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Bluesky wrote:
But Iris is a purity!Sue, whereas if Kay is a sue, she's like a God-Mode!Sue.
[/semantics] :odoroki:


Really? Really?

Argh the term "Canon Sue" (and Mary-Sue in general) is bad enough. Now we're entering the realm of the mindbogglingly absurd in terms of forced categorization.
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For the (court) record, I'll state that I liked Kay's character. She ain't one of my favorites, but I thought she was genuinely amusing with the "I'm stealing your role" jokes and et cetera. As for the matter of preserving fingerprints, how long can unpreserved ones last. Depending on how long that time-frame is, Kay could have figured out how to preserve fingerprints even if it took her father's death to get her to learn about such techniques.
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Regy Rusty wrote:
Bluesky wrote:
But Iris is a purity!Sue, whereas if Kay is a sue, she's like a God-Mode!Sue.
[/semantics] :odoroki:


Really? Really?

Argh the term "Canon Sue" (and Mary-Sue in general) is bad enough. Now we're entering the realm of the mindbogglingly absurd in terms of forced categorization.


Such are the depths of fandom.
....ever visited TV Tropes?
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Oh god I am so addicted to TVtropes. I spent about five hours on the site last night. I didn't mean to, of course... I just wanted to read one article but one article lead to another, and suddenly I had eight different tabs for different articles opened AND THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS. Stay off of TVtropes if you have things to do, that's all I'm saying.

Here is the TVtropes Mary Sue article. It leads to many, many more articles on the subject.

Interestingly enough, according to TVtropes, Iris is a Yamato Nadeshiko, not a Purity Sue. What's also interesting is the fact that Mia Fey fits the bill for God Mode Sue a lot better than Kay does. Almost everyone loves Mia, though, so naturally she generally isn't accused by the fandom of being a Canon Sue.

I stick to my assertion that characters, usually female, are mostly accused of being canon sues based on the fact that the player did not like them yet the other characters did. Fandom is filled with ~OPINIONS~ that ultimately mean nothing.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Kartoon Kween wrote:
I stick to my assertion that characters, usually female, are mostly accused of being canon sues based on the fact that the player did not like them yet the other characters did. Fandom is filled with ~OPINIONS~ that ultimately mean nothing.


I agree wholeheartedly.

Anyway, personally, I can't stand TV tropes and the whole mentality behind it.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Kartoon Kween wrote:
What's also interesting is the fact that Mia Fey fits the bill for God Mode Sue a lot better than Kay does. Almost everyone loves Mia, though, so naturally she generally isn't accused by the fandom of being a Canon Sue.


This is maybe a bit mitigated by the fact that Mia Fey is dead.

Also, TVTropes is full of annoying fans who care way too much about their precious fandom but I still can't stop reading it AAAAAAAAA
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Regy Rusty wrote:
Anyway, personally, I can't stand TV tropes and the whole mentality behind it.


I know what you mean. It's basically just like "Here's all the stuff that appeared in any form of fiction EVER!" When everything's a trope, it doesn't leave much...

Icarus wrote:
but I still can't stop reading it AAAAAAAAA


Again, I know what you mean. :ben:
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Kartoon Kween wrote:
In fandom, "canon sue" basically means "character I hated but the other characters liked." How dare characters in-game like a character I hated? They must be acting OOC! ;_;


Wow, that's harsh. That wasn't my intention at all...

I mean, I felt that her character was a bit of a deus ex machina. She didn't have the limitations characters like Maya or Trucy had, and I found it peculiar that Edgeworth would even put up with her in a crime scene of all things. I could see Phoenix being a pushover like that, I just couldn't see Edgeworth doing the same (Also, Maya was his beloved mentor's sister. Edgeworth didn't even REMEMBER Kay). And just weird inconsistencies, like Lang deciding he has to keep Ema for questioning when she didn't really see anything but letting Kay go even though Kay DID see the body.

It's just odd things like that through-out the game that made her feel like a Sue, or at least a sloppily written character. I wasn't trying to just straight bash her, everyone's entitled to like whomever they do. (I personally love Maya, Ema, and Trucy, though I know a lot of people don't like them at all.) I more wanted to hear other people's takes on the character. But I didn't think it would come down to accusing each other like this. =/

Sorry if I insulted anyone.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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pleadingeyes wrote:
Kartoon Kween wrote:
In fandom, "canon sue" basically means "character I hated but the other characters liked." How dare characters in-game like a character I hated? They must be acting OOC! ;_;


Wow, that's harsh. That wasn't my intention at all...

I mean, I felt that her character was a bit of a deus ex machina. She didn't have the limitations characters like Maya or Trucy had, and I found it peculiar that Edgeworth would even put up with her in a crime scene of all things. I could see Phoenix being a pushover like that, I just couldn't see Edgeworth doing the same (Also, Maya was his beloved mentor's sister. Edgeworth didn't even REMEMBER Kay). And just weird inconsistencies, like Lang deciding he has to keep Ema for questioning when she didn't really see anything but letting Kay go even though Kay DID see the body.

It's just odd things like that through-out the game that made her feel like a Sue, or at least a sloppily written character. I wasn't trying to just straight bash her, everyone's entitled to like whomever they do. (I personally love Maya, Ema, and Trucy, though I know a lot of people don't like them at all.) I more wanted to hear other people's takes on the character. But I didn't think it would come down to accusing each other like this. =/

Sorry if I insulted anyone.


Sorry I just assumed you were mad Ema and Maya got less screen time.

Also what limitations for Maya and Ema do you mean? Also there's a perfectly valid reason Edgeworth endures her company, because she's a delightful girl AND she actually provides useful information to him. She's not like Maya who is 60% Comedy 10% Burgers and 30% Channeling Mia, Kay actually provides insight and thought into the case plus her little thief tool is incredible. As for keeping Ema over Kay, what's the big deal? Kay was Edgeworth's investigative assistant he probably thought he needed her for the case or evenso he hates prosecutors I imagine he couldn't wait to see the back end of Edgeworth and holding him and Kay up would've caused irritating objections on Edgeworth's behalf thus stalling the investigation.

I wouldn't say she's a Sue and I enjoyed her character, I just don't get where this blatant dislike is coming from.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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shadowofedgeworth wrote:
Icarus wrote:
but I still can't stop reading it AAAAAAAAA


Again, I know what you mean. :ben:

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@pleadingeyes

Wasn't trying to be harsh on you personally. The practice of being all OMG RAGE on (usually female) characters and calling them sues existed in this fandom long before this thread and long before AAI. It also exists in pretty much every fandom ever. I know it will never go away, but sometimes I just need to poke a little fun at the trend.

Pierre wrote:
I wouldn't say she's a Sue and I enjoyed her character, I just don't get where this blatant dislike is coming from.

Fandom is a hate machine.
Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Cordopia Over All wrote:
she was genuinely amusing with the "I'm stealing your role" jokes and et cetera

You're entitled to your opinion, but be aware that the "I'm stealing your role" jokes, et cetera, were some of the main reasons Kay grinded people's gears. It comes off as a pompous and egotistical "Tee hee hee I get to spend more time with your partner and am more important to him than you are even though I just met him tee hee hee in your face" at Gumshoe, which was just plain insensitive and abrasive, and it sent up Mary Sue flags for some people.

I found Kay to be rude in general. I mean, blowing her nose in Edgeworth's cravat right after he offered her a clean handkerchief? It was cute and silly and gave Edgey an excuse to explain that he always carries a spare cravat, but it just makes Kay come off as self-important and inconsiderate. The writers tried to shoehorn in "Dawww" moments without considering the social context, so the "Dawww" moments came at the cost of Kay's potential as a likeable character.

Pierre wrote:
Kay actually provides insight and thought into the case plus her little thief tool is incredible.

Kay's a fourth-wall customs officer: a lot of her insight comes from things the player would be thinking at that moment.

As for the Little Thief, as a crime scene recreation device it serves absolutely no narrative purpose. The only way it was at all relevant to the plot was because the smuggling ring wanted it to shut down security systems, and it was a token from the original Yatagarasu. Crime scene recreation was a gimmick that wasn't actually needed to solve any crimes; the only reason the secondary villain in the third case bought the haunted house was to give Kay an excuse to make the Little Thief useful. The other times it was used, it could have easily been replaced by the Logic system, which is why it's strange that Edgeworth treats it like such a useful, game-making device.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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I don't think she intended to blow on Edgey's cravat. Through her teary eyes she sees something that looks like a handkerchief and she blows her nose in it. Suitably cute and takes the tension out of the moment.

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As for the Little Thief, as a crime scene recreation device it serves absolutely no narrative purpose. The only way it was at all relevant to the plot was because the smuggling ring wanted it to shut down security systems, and it was a token from the original Yatagarasu. Crime scene recreation was a gimmick that wasn't actually needed to solve any crimes; the only reason the secondary villain in the third case bought the haunted house was to give Kay an excuse to make the Little Thief useful. The other times it was used, it could have easily been replaced by the Logic system, which is why it's strange that Edgeworth treats it like such a useful, game-making device.


I'm going to have to say....that's wrong specifically that last part. The logic system if anything is the more useless tool. Logic is something the player and other playable attorney's use without requiring a system. It's like the transition between two places in GS1-4 except adding in a world map you have to traverse to get from Wright and Co Talent Agency to Eldoon's Noodle stand. 'Little Thief' wasn't just a gimmick to portray Kay as almighty assistant it was actually necessary. The buying of the haunted house served to create a fairly decent plot twist as well as villianise a previously innocent person so it was not just a plot device to make use of Kay it served other purposes. The Logic system could not have sufficed due to new evidence and logic acquired at the scene.

:edgeworth: We can't examine the haunted house? Hmm...let me think about this....
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Someone's opinion can hardly be 'wrong'. I saw the Little Thief as gimmicky, and Edgeworth would have been able to cope just fine without it, except for the instance where its usefulness was forced (and it was forced; the buyer of the house could have done any number of things to obstruct Edgeworth's investigation besides make Kay jump in with the Little Thief). For example, in the third case the victim's wounds make it obvious that he was shot from an angle. Using the Little Thief to demonstrate this was the most roundabout and unnecessary way to do it, when there could have simply been a Logic segment where you connected "Victim was shot from an angle" and "There was a raised area where the shooting took place".

Say what you will about the Logic system, it demonstrates how Edgeworth does his work. It's indicative of Edgeworth's character and it gives him a chance to make observations that otherwise might have felt forced, and is therefore a justified gameplay mechanic regardless of how (un)intuitive it was. Crime scene recreation was not justified, especially when it was chosen and praised over the existing system (and Ema's much more credible forensic investigation skills), and the game would not suffer any significant change if that function of the Little Thief was scrapped.

And crime scene recreation actually has the same credibility as Edgeworth's logic. The Little Thief doesn't display what actually happened, so presenting a hypothesis with a supercool holographic simulation isn't any more conclusive than just talking it out. If the data to input into the Little Thief (like building blueprints) was available all along, using it in a supercool holographic simulation instead of to aid logical deduction only serves to make Kay look useful.
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Re: Kay Faraday: Canon Sue *Spoiler Warning*Topic%20Title
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Marshmello wrote:
[It] only serves to make Kay look useful.


I think this sums her up in a nutshell. So much of the game felt like it was taking odd and unnatural roundabout directions just to suit Kay. To pump Kay up. To make Kay special. Annoying for one, since it was Edgeworth's game. But it also made her feel shallow. Was she really so weak a character that they couldn't make her likable without all the extra fluff?

I agree that The Little Thief was unnecessary. What's more, it didn't even fit with Kay's character (does she really seem like a techie girl the rest of the time?). But then again, not much did. She was a patchwork of different, often contrasting personalities and shticks, which again, made her feel unnatural.

Other characters react to her oddly, at least it seemed so to me, though this may also be due to the fact that Kay has no consistent personality for the characters to react TO.
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