Athena's character (SPOILERS) : Themis Legal Academy (GS5)

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:52 pm

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

I see nothing wrong with Apollo's face. Isn't that how he normally looks? :p

If normal means looking like he has to take a massive dump then yes its pretty normal haha.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:56 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Nearavex wrote:

He was supposed to be ugly here, I think xD

Nonsense. These images capture his persona perfectly.

Seriously, he really does have the face of a gamer.

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Last edited by Rubia Ryu the Royal on Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:57 pm

Ucha Nekome

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Fool Bright wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

I see nothing wrong with Apollo's face. Isn't that how he normally looks? :p

If normal means looking like he has to take a massive dump then yes its pretty normal haha.

To me it just looks like he's wincing in pain. (It could also be taking a dump, and a "Your dead to me face" but ether way...)

"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:01 pm

Church Of Sumire

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Ucha Nekome wrote:

Fool Bright wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

I see nothing wrong with Apollo's face. Isn't that how he normally looks? :p

If normal means looking like he has to take a massive dump then yes its pretty normal haha.

To me it just looks like he's wincing in pain. (It could also be taking a dump, and a "Your dead to me face" but ether way...)

Pretty much the different faces of Justice!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:23 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Bad Player wrote:

So a few posts ago, I suggested how the events in the backstory of DD could have been swapped around a bit in order to make Athena better, without impacting the case much, mostly by pushing back UR-1.

Not to drag out a dead argument again, but I'd like to confirm something. Was it ever mentioned that Blackquill's sentence could be extended at all? If UR-1 were to take place 2-3 years before it's established in DD, that would mean Blackquill would be executed 2-3 years earlier, given that they didn't have a reason to extend his sentence, and thus we would need another prosecutor for this game.

On the other hand, the story could be improved if Blackquill were dead by then. Athena would have a slightly different cause to go into law, possibly to pursue the truth behind UR-1, but she wouldn't need to rush through 7 years of advanced education, and she could still be hired for the WAA at the age of 21 to be a junior in both age and position to Apollo.

As for Aura... I like to think that she'd have gone insane at some point and turned into a recluse herself, only to later become a vigilante hunting after the truth of the UR-1 case. She could even have a secret identity and stylish disguise! :D (Where else have I heard of that...? Oh yeah, that one guy had a fancy name too. Too bad for him, though, he didn't have robots.)

Not to mention, the space launch sabotage would happen anyway, since the Phantom was yet to be captured. The problem is, though, if Blackquill was the one who had the Phantom's psych profile, where would that go when he's executed? To Fulbright? Oh, drat. Or maybe he'd take it to his grave, and then someone will have to go grave-digging to recover it... which will probably be Fulbright. Oh, double drat. How are we supposed to solve this case now?

But it's Nick we're talking about, he'll find something somehow and make things work!

...but I think if PhantomBright burned the psych profile, we'd have nothing on him but Athena's Mood Matrix, and that doesn't count as evidence, even if the judge is lenient enough. On the other hand, because no one would have to worry about someone's execution date, Edgey could take a little more time to investigate into who PhantomBright really is and somehow make things work.

Oh, look, Nick. Edgey just solved this game before you could do anything (useful).

In conclusion, this game should have featured Edgeworth as protagonist and should have been called "Gyakuten Kenji 3", with re-instated Phoenix Wright on the side (and maybe as a temporary assistant role).

...How did I get here again?

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:40 pm

Bad Player

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

So a few posts ago, I suggested how the events in the backstory of DD could have been swapped around a bit in order to make Athena better, without impacting the case much, mostly by pushing back UR-1.

Not to drag out a dead argument again, but I'd like to confirm something. Was it ever mentioned that Blackquill's sentence could be extended at all?

I don't mean that the characters do something to extend Blackquill's sentence. Rather, in this scenario, Blackquill's sentence just 'is' longer. (Just as UR-1 just 'was' earlier.)

And there's no reason it couldn't be; it's not like there any sort of explicit law saying that prisoners must be held 8 years before being executed. (Heck, from the convos with Franzy in JFA it sounds like Manfred had already been executed, which would have clocked him in at less than a year.)

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:49 pm

JesusMonroe

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Bad Player wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

So a few posts ago, I suggested how the events in the backstory of DD could have been swapped around a bit in order to make Athena better, without impacting the case much, mostly by pushing back UR-1.

Not to drag out a dead argument again, but I'd like to confirm something. Was it ever mentioned that Blackquill's sentence could be extended at all?

I don't mean that the characters do something to extend Blackquill's sentence. Rather, in this scenario, Blackquill's sentence just 'is' longer. (Just as UR-1 just 'was' earlier.)

And there's no reason it couldn't be; it's not like there any sort of explicit law saying that prisoners must be held 8 years before being executed. (Heck, from the convos with Franzy in JFA it sounds like Manfred had already been executed, which would have clocked him in at less than a year.)

I'm pretty sure it's implied von Karma killed himself in prison. That would fit with his character; von Karma isn't able to live with the fact that he lost to a rookie. Hell, any of the people he's prosecuted (that he'd be sharing a bunk bed with) could've killed him.

But yeah, I agree with you on this point. They could've just made it longer. Dahlia was executed after like five years, it's implied in GK2 that Yogi is alive, and it's implied (somewhat) in Dual Destinies that Engarde is alive. It could vary from person to person (just like real life). The "higher court" the accused gets sent to could decide the sentence. Sawhit would get like ten years in prison, Redd White would get a life sentence/death penalty in five years and the Phantom would get the death penalty in two years. I don't know. It doesn't matter that much

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:49 pm

Nearavex

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Manfred could have very well pushed his sentence to be carried out earlier. It wouldn't be surprising, with his pride and ideology about perfection above all and the fact he lost it.
Still, that would make Athena merely 2 years younger and it really wouldn't work out that well for this great Apollo/Athena dynamic.
Not to mention, that they wanted UR-1 to happen soon after Nick's disbarment, so she couldn't be really older than 19, because they needed her to be a child at that time...

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:15 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Bad Player wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

So a few posts ago, I suggested how the events in the backstory of DD could have been swapped around a bit in order to make Athena better, without impacting the case much, mostly by pushing back UR-1.

Not to drag out a dead argument again, but I'd like to confirm something. Was it ever mentioned that Blackquill's sentence could be extended at all?

I don't mean that the characters do something to extend Blackquill's sentence. Rather, in this scenario, Blackquill's sentence just 'is' longer. (Just as UR-1 just 'was' earlier.)

And there's no reason it couldn't be; it's not like there any sort of explicit law saying that prisoners must be held 8 years before being executed. (Heck, from the convos with Franzy in JFA it sounds like Manfred had already been executed, which would have clocked him in at less than a year.)

You'd think that for a case this "controversial" that would require the government to cover it up, the suspect would get a clean and easy guilty and be executed without a 7-9 year wait. (Then again, given how clueless Athena was about the date, it gives me the impression that he wasn't meant to be executed, but somewhere along the lines, they decided for it. Still, why wait on it for so long?)

Either way, it sounds awkward that what we see in the game is what has been selected as the "ideal" means to bring Phoenix into a story that never once concerned him before.

Nearavex wrote:

Not to mention, that they wanted UR-1 to happen soon after Nick's disbarment, so she couldn't be really older than 19, because they needed her to be a child at that time...

Actually, by extending Blackquill's sentence from the intended 7 to a longer period, it'd give Athena a little more margin for getting her stuff together and blazing through school like in an Olympic 100m dash. She could fit comfortably in the crew at 21, and she wouldn't seem like such a "forced" genius that way.

That'd be a 3 year difference only, though, so she still would have needed to skip a few grades.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:41 pm

Bad Player

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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

That'd be a 3 year difference only, though, so she still would have needed to skip a few grades.

Yeah. It wouldn't be totally ideal, but it'd be a lot better.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:13 am

Nearavex

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Oh, come on. Having characters like Nick (who didn't even study law until 21), Franzy or damned Klavier on the boat, Athena's teenage lawyering shouldn't even come off as surprise. I mean, sure, we don't talk about the others, because it's Athena thread, but... One would think we would get used to it by JFA or AAI.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:31 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Nearavex wrote:

Oh, come on. Having characters like Nick (who didn't even study law until 21), Franzy or damned Klavier on the boat, Athena's teenage lawyering shouldn't even come off as surprise. I mean, sure, we don't talk about the others, because it's Athena thread, but... One would think we would get used to it by JFA or AAI.

Pretty much what I've been getting at, but I do understand where BP is coming from. This series has been known to make some pretty farfetched leaps in plausibility regarding anything and everything. Yet, bringing in a genius that smashes the standards of all previous geniuses (as a result of unintentional design, I believe) all of a sudden like this is a little much to take in at once. It's hard to define boundaries of possibility as a result, and you just wonder, where is all this incredible stuff grounded in? The only supernatural thing I have yet to take for granted is spirit channeling, since that stuff's been around since the beginning. It's also cause for confusion from time to time.

"But it's Ace Attorney, it's satire, it's not supposed to make sense..."

I've made this argument myself, but I do question it: even within its own established standards? That's not an excuse for rushed game design. If Eshiro, Yamazaki, and the rest of the scenario crew took a few steps back to review through everything and how it'd seem to new and old fans alike, I'd say it's very likely they'd have noticed these sloppy points. Nonetheless, it would have made it into the official release because of market time.

And that brings me back to my very initial point. As it is still satire, I prefer to treat it with a little satire of my own. I swear, if everyone had slightly changed designs - like Nick and Edgey's facial hair, Athena's shades, Blackquill's katana, etc. - I really would have no point arguing about this.

"Objection! I have a luscious beard! Your argument is invalid!"
"Not so fast, Mr. Wright. You think you can get away with a flimsy claim like that?"
"W-w-what!? Edgeworth, when did you get a mustache!?"
"Not just any mustache, Wright. One that is much silkier and more luscious than your beard."
"...Oh, it's on."

I have to admit, though, the Judge wins this, hands down.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:53 am

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Bad Player wrote:

Yeah. It wouldn't be totally ideal, but it'd be a lot better.

But then "The Dark Age of the Law" couldn't have been spawned from the incident. Blackquill gets arrested and then three years later, Phoenix loses his badge and THEN the Dark Age is born. That's just a bit weird. I know the Dark Age was sloppily handled so I won't get into that, but in terms of how it started, the scenario Rubia listed wouldn't fit in with the writers' idea. The only way it would work is if it was a Tenkai situation and it took three years for the trial to get a verdict

Best case scenario would be the incident taking place shortly after Nick loses his badge. Athena is 12 (going on 13) at this point. Eight years later, she's 21.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:18 am

Bad Player

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JesusMonroe wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

Yeah. It wouldn't be totally ideal, but it'd be a lot better.

But then "The Dark Age of the Law" couldn't have been spawned from the incident. Blackquill gets arrested and then three years later, Phoenix loses his badge and THEN the Dark Age is born. That's just a bit weird.

Nah, it's still fine. UR-1 is already a "year" after Nick was disbarred. So if UR-1 was moved up two years, then Nick would be disbarred a "year" after UR-1, and Nick's disbarment would be the "direct" cause of the dark age of law. We're just flipping the order, so it shouldn't really change anything.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:59 am

Sir Duke

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I actually really liked Athena. Even though she's in the game a little too much, I think she's a great character with good development. What she really reminds me of is Maya, but with a lot more to do. :phoenix:

The king of all, Sir Duke

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:33 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Bad Player wrote:

JesusMonroe wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

Yeah. It wouldn't be totally ideal, but it'd be a lot better.

But then "The Dark Age of the Law" couldn't have been spawned from the incident. Blackquill gets arrested and then three years later, Phoenix loses his badge and THEN the Dark Age is born. That's just a bit weird.

Nah, it's still fine. UR-1 is already a "year" after Nick was disbarred. So if UR-1 was moved up two years, then Nick would be disbarred a "year" after UR-1, and Nick's disbarment would be the "direct" cause of the dark age of law. We're just flipping the order, so it shouldn't really change anything.

Technically, the Dark Age of Law can't be attributed to any one person. It just "happened". And technically, if Edgeworth's last remark in the credits suggests anything, it's not quite over.

I think there's still time for this theme to grow on us. Perhaps what was assumed to be the "cause" wasn't the true cause, and something bigger was developing in the meantime. That's one way the DAL can bounce back from the grave it's sitting in now. It's just a coincidence that ended up in turmoil when Dual Destinies combined an incomplete theme with a rushed backstory. Again, if this game had one more case, it could have saved it from some of the criticisms in this thread.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:36 am

Bad Player

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Well, as we've seen with the jurist system and the gramarye family, just because DAL was a big part of DD doesn't mean it'll even get mentioned once in GS6 >_>

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:30 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Now that is a really inappropriate thing to make a running gag out of, but I laugh at the idea that Nick's last accident gave him repercussions that no one would have expected: selective amnesia.

Wait, I thought only the judge was capable of that. Cue the "Grandpa Nick" jokes.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:12 pm

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I remember reading something that said it would've been easy to tie the Dark Age into all the cases

Case 1: Obvious
Case 2: L'Belle was in debt because of him paying attorneys after false charges were put against him
Case 3: Means finds out Juniper is the snitch and Courte sent her to spy on him. He kills her during an argument about their different law philosophies because letting a woman bleed to death is the, "end justifying the means"

The only one that's troubling is TR, but that's DLC so it doesn't have to tie in that well

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:18 am

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Bad Player wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

That'd be a 3 year difference only, though, so she still would have needed to skip a few grades.

Yeah. It wouldn't be totally ideal, but it'd be a lot better.

By then she'd be an old prune, and someone even more plucky kawaii desu moe mode would have to take her place. Don't you guys know anything about video games? Duh!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:07 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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Thane wrote:

Bad Player wrote:

Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:

That'd be a 3 year difference only, though, so she still would have needed to skip a few grades.

Yeah. It wouldn't be totally ideal, but it'd be a lot better.

By then she'd be an old prune, and someone even more plucky kawaii desu moe mode would have to take her place. Don't you guys know anything about video games? Duh!

Yay, you're back!
And she'd be a lawyer who somehow gets involved with setting up the Jurist System 'cause she's cool like that. Then GS7 comes along with another boy lawyer, and we'd finally have the long-awaited Lawyer Corps 5. Also, the big bad in that game will be an intergalactic threat just because

"Wright Anything Agency, we kick space ass too."

I swear, a motto like that will get fans swarming their office. You'd think they'd have better promotional material already.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:25 am

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Would publicity even help the WAA? I'm not sure if a single client has ever paid for the services of Phoenix, Apollo, or Athena

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:45 am

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I like Athena just fine, but I can't help but feel like she's missing something to really make her stand out.

Athena is quirky and upbeat, she has a tragic past, she's a prodigy, she has a special ability that no one else has... who doesn't, in this game? Athena is a composite of traits that a lot of other characters already do better, and I really want to love her, but I just can't pinpoint anything that makes her unique. Maya is a spirit medium, and that culture affects her beyond her ability. She loves food, and shows about samurais. She's a sister, a cousin, Phoenix's best friend; she's vulnerable, she experiences loss in a way I find sincere.

... We know what Athena is, but who is she? She grew up around robots, but it doesn't seem to make her act or see the world any differently than most other Ace Attorney characters. She lost her mother in a very traumatic way, and compartmentalizes the pain while overcompensating through a cheerful persona - but that's something Maya already did, in a sense, and I find it written better in her case. Athena is a prodigy lawyer, but that's normal at this point. She didn't grow up in a perfectionist, restrictive household like Edgeworth and Franziska. It just feels like... the writers for this game get the outline of how Ace Attorney characters have been written before, but they have a hard time implementing it in a way that feels fresh and believable to me.

Like a lot of other people have said, a three-way split feels like a little much, especially for a game called "Dual" Destinies. She introduces a whole new cast of characters through which to develop her story and personality, and since she's a main character, they distract from the recurring characters who aren't yet fully developed. I would probably love her as a side character, but as a main character... she hasn't quite clicked for me, yet.

Apollo loses the spotlight in his own game to Phoenix's case, and then he still takes the back seat to a brand new character. What about Trucy, for that matter? She's barely received any character development at all, yet. I don't know. I don't feel like it was necessary to add yet another protagonist when there are still quite a few major characters that could use some solid development.

... All of this has probably been said in one form or another already. Sorry if I'm just rehashing overstated opinions.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:55 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

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JesusMonroe wrote:

Would publicity even help the WAA? I'm not sure if a single client has ever paid for the services of Phoenix, Apollo, or Athena

Well, if they increase the clientele, surely someone is bound to pay them, right?

Coyote wrote:

I like Athena just fine, but I can't help but feel like she's missing something to really make her stand out.

I think I can attribute this mundane feeling to how familiar the territory feels regarding her backstory and even her role. The UR-1 case has several parallels with the DL-6 and SL-9 cases. As an assistant, she blends well with her co-workers, but which assistant doesn't?

In fact, the whole game can feel like this; like we've already been there before. I doubt Capcom has run out of ideas; they came up with so many that they had to discard most of them. Yet, what this game does best is actually paying tribute to the original trilogy, and for the sake of continuity, sticks some AJ characters in there too. I think the dev team eventually came to focus a little too much on gathering new fans and hoping old fans will return for sake of nostalgia. If the nostalgia card is played at the right time and with the right frequency, it can work very well. If not, it comes off as baseless fanservice. I say it sits in the middle between these two extremes. Some moments clicked, while others didn't.

Does anyone else feel this way, or am I spouting nonsense again? I know it's nothing new if I am.

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Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:21 am

Thane

Gender: None specified

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

Quote:

And she'd be a lawyer who somehow gets involved with setting up the Jurist System 'cause she's cool like that. Then GS7 comes along with another boy lawyer, and we'd finally have the long-awaited Lawyer Corps 5. Also, the big bad in that game will be an intergalactic threat just because

"Wright Anything Agency, we kick space ass too."

I swear, a motto like that will get fans swarming their office. You'd think they'd have better promotional material already.

Athena kicks space ass while Phoenix and Apollo stand on the sidelines praising her.

Also, no, I believe you're right regarding the feeling of Athena not really contributing anything new; they really played it too safe, or too cliché if you want to be harsh. Really, she's the fifth plucky teenage assistant, and the only real difference between her and the rest is the fact that she's playable and an attorney, but that's not really enough to stand out.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:57 pm

Rubia Ryu the Royal

Racing through the sky like a Missile

Gender: Female

Location: LA, Japanifornia

Rank: Ace Attorney

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Posts: 6180

Speaking of not standing out... Careful, Apollo, that babe is ready to fling that thing at you.

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:17 pm

JesusMonroe

Gender: Male

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:13 pm

Posts: 1546

I think you guys might've rubbed off on me. I'm replaying sections of Dual Destinies and am finding Athena more and more intolerable as I go along. Sigh...

On the other hand, I used to think Juniper was a horribly bland character, but now I really like her! Especially her 5-3 persona. I don't know why. There's something about her

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:52 pm

Pierre

Gettin' Old!

Gender: Male

Location: Scotland

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:30 pm

Posts: 14363

JesusMonroe wrote:

I think you guys might've rubbed off on me. I'm replaying sections of Dual Destinies and am finding Athena more and more intolerable as I go along. Sigh...

On the other hand, I used to think Juniper was a horribly bland character, but now I really like her! Especially her 5-3 persona. I don't know why. There's something about her

It was probably just a case of first time round you got your sparkly "OMG NEW AA GAME!" glasses on so it's easy to overlook minor things. Now you're aware of the problems they probably niggle a lot at ya.

Made by Chesu+Zombee

You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:58 pm

JesusMonroe

Gender: Male

Rank: Ace Attorney

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Posts: 1546

Pierre wrote:

It was probably just a case of first time round you got your sparkly "OMG NEW AA GAME!" glasses on so it's easy to overlook minor things. Now you're aware of the problems they probably niggle a lot at ya.

Yeah, could be (though I thought 5-1 felt kind of off). It's not even things like Athena being "perfect" or her backstory not being explained that bothers me, though. I'm just imagining being in a room with her with her constantly screaming at me all the time and a lot of her lines make me cringe like, "Sounds like you want a knuckle sandwich, buster!"

Out of curiosity, assuming Athena is in GS6 (which she likely most definitely will be), what would you guys want to change about her character besides her killing off? Or do you think her character is too far gone?

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:07 pm

Pierre

Gettin' Old!

Gender: Male

Location: Scotland

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:30 pm

Posts: 14363

JesusMonroe wrote:

Pierre wrote:

It was probably just a case of first time round you got your sparkly "OMG NEW AA GAME!" glasses on so it's easy to overlook minor things. Now you're aware of the problems they probably niggle a lot at ya.

Yeah, could be (though I thought 5-1 felt kind of off). It's not even things like Athena being "perfect" or her backstory not being explained that bothers me, though. I'm just imagining being in a room with her with her constantly screaming at me all the time and a lot of her lines make me cringe like, "Sounds like you want a knuckle sandwich, buster!"

Out of curiosity, assuming Athena is in GS6 (which she likely most definitely will be), what would you guys want to change about her character besides her killing off? Or do you think her character is too far gone?

Maybe reveal some details about her relationship with Simon. Explain her powers. Reveal her true nature as an Android.

Little things.
Really I think they've dug themselves into a hole, doubt they can split a game between three attorneys without someone getting shafted in the limelight. Not sure how much they can really fix the 3-way split but we'll need to see.

Made by Chesu+Zombee

You thought you could be safe in your courts, with your laws and attorneys to protect you. In this world only I am law, my word is fact, my power is absolute.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:49 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

Racing through the sky like a Missile

Gender: Female

Location: LA, Japanifornia

Rank: Ace Attorney

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:17 am

Posts: 6180

JesusMonroe wrote:

Pierre wrote:

It was probably just a case of first time round you got your sparkly "OMG NEW AA GAME!" glasses on so it's easy to overlook minor things. Now you're aware of the problems they probably niggle a lot at ya.

Yeah, could be (though I thought 5-1 felt kind of off). It's not even things like Athena being "perfect" or her backstory not being explained that bothers me, though. I'm just imagining being in a room with her with her constantly screaming at me all the time and a lot of her lines make me cringe like, "Sounds like you want a knuckle sandwich, buster!"

You tend to get like that when you're a pubescent teen in the world of anime, especially in shonen and some shojo. Plus, I didn't like Wendy Lee's voice acting in this game, though I usually don't mind her in other roles.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, assuming Athena is in GS6 (which she likely most definitely will be), what would you guys want to change about her character besides her killing off? Or do you think her character is too far gone?

IMHO, she's not that bad when it comes to overly expressive emotional behavior. Somehow, when I hear a line in Japanese, it flows a lot better. Never mind the cutscenes, which tend to have issues with dubbing anyhow. Whenever I read the Japanese script, I don't pick up as many things that feel forced or out of place (even though there still will be some). Somehow, when I try speaking Japanese lines, I naturally feel compelled to exert a little more emphasis and vigor. It's hard for me to explain.

But yeah, as Pierre mentioned, she needs a little more texture, a little more charm to her character. So far, it still feels like a sloppily painted canvas, like with Apollo, and there's a lot of copy-paste editing in there.

This game left a lot of questions open on purpose, but I don't think they intended to leave some as much as they wanted others.

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:50 am

Thane

Gender: None specified

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

I'm just afraid they'll hear a lot of the negative feedback on various forums and then try to overcompensate, giving her more screen time than she needs. If she's to become more tolerable or even likeable as a character, she needs to take on a much smaller role so she doesn't feel so damn forced and in your face.

That's about it really: chill the frigg down, let us see what kind of character she is instead of trying to force it down our throats, and expand on some of the points that simply don't make much sense, such as Simon sacrificing himself for her (although to be honest, I'd rather forget all about that).

Of course, at this point I'd rather just have her killed off, and before you start hissing at me, let me explain why.

First of all, I was never a fan of the plucky teenage girl assistant other than the original Maya; the fact that we have had so many different girls in the various games is just downright annoying, and the fact that we also have Pearl AND Trucy around doesn't help things. I still stand by statement that Trucy is the Ace Attorney character in most need of character development, since we don't really know that much about her, and she's related to not one, but two protagonists and has several loose plot threads involving her. Having Phoenix, Apollo AND Athena around will just make it that much harder for her to properly stand on her own two feet as a character.

Secondly, her character arc is more or less done now. People may brand me a hypocrite since I want Maya back, but the two can really not be compared. Maya is the co-star of the original trilogy, Phoenix's best friend and a strong character in her own right. Just because she's the master of some village now (I never did like Kurain, and she finished Trials and Tribulations stating she'd be both the master AND Phoenix's partner, but I digress) doesn't mean she should be gone forever. I want to know what she's up to, what she looks and acts like now and so on. Giving her an entire new subplot when the game should be focusing on Apollo and Trucy might be stretching things, but I don't believe Maya should be left out of the series just because she got a job, is what I'm saying.

Athena, on the other hand, just feels finished. She has solved her obligatory childhood trauma like everyone else and moved on. I never cared for her, but I have an even harder time caring about her now that she's all fine and dandy, and having her act as a third protagonist and assistant, all while developing support characters, will just take away from more interesting characters that have more room to grow.

Thirdly, if she were to be killed off, that might actually make for a very interesting and emotionally investing case. Apollo breaks down, Trucy or Lamiroir is suspected of killing her, Blackquill is the prosecutor, having wasted seven years of his life in jail defending someone who died anyway.

I realize you said we shouldn't kill her off, and I know a lot of people will disagree with me and I know Mr. Yamazaki won't kill off his new pet so easily, but I just feel like it would be for the best.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:53 am

Sir Duke

The King of All

Gender: None specified

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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:30 am

Posts: 566

Thane wrote:

I'm just afraid they'll hear a lot of the negative feedback on various forums and then try to overcompensate, giving her more screen time than she needs. If she's to become more tolerable or even likeable as a character, she needs to take on a much smaller role so she doesn't feel so damn forced and in your face.

That's about it really: chill the frigg down, let us see what kind of character she is instead of trying to force it down our throats, and expand on some of the points that simply don't make much sense, such as Simon sacrificing himself for her (although to be honest, I'd rather forget all about that).

Of course, at this point I'd rather just have her killed off, and before you start hissing at me, let me explain why.

First of all, I was never a fan of the plucky teenage girl assistant other than the original Maya; the fact that we have had so many different girls in the various games is just downright annoying, and the fact that we also have Pearl AND Trucy around doesn't help things. I still stand by statement that Trucy is the Ace Attorney character in most need of character development, since we don't really know that much about her, and she's related to not one, but two protagonists and has several loose plot threads involving her. Having Phoenix, Apollo AND Athena around will just make it that much harder for her to properly stand on her own two feet as a character.

Secondly, her character arc is more or less done now. People may brand me a hypocrite since I want Maya back, but the two can really not be compared. Maya is the co-star of the original trilogy, Phoenix's best friend and a strong character in her own right. Just because she's the master of some village now (I never did like Kurain, and she finished Trials and Tribulations stating she'd be both the master AND Phoenix's partner, but I digress) doesn't mean she should be gone forever. I want to know what she's up to, what she looks and acts like now and so on. Giving her an entire new subplot when the game should be focusing on Apollo and Trucy might be stretching things, but I don't believe Maya should be left out of the series just because she got a job, is what I'm saying.

Athena, on the other hand, just feels finished. She has solved her obligatory childhood trauma like everyone else and moved on. I never cared for her, but I have an even harder time caring about her now that she's all fine and dandy, and having her act as a third protagonist and assistant, all while developing support characters, will just take away from more interesting characters that have more room to grow.

Thirdly, if she were to be killed off, that might actually make for a very interesting and emotionally investing case. Apollo breaks down, Trucy or Lamiroir is suspected of killing her, Blackquill is the prosecutor, having wasted seven years of his life in jail defending someone who died anyway.

I realize you said we shouldn't kill her off, and I know a lot of people will disagree with me and I know Mr. Yamazaki won't kill off his new pet so easily, but I just feel like it would be for the best.

Spoiler: GK2 spoilers

The king of all, Sir Duke

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:22 am

Thane

Gender: None specified

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

Deadpool 9 wrote:

Thane wrote:

I'm just afraid they'll hear a lot of the negative feedback on various forums and then try to overcompensate, giving her more screen time than she needs. If she's to become more tolerable or even likeable as a character, she needs to take on a much smaller role so she doesn't feel so damn forced and in your face.

That's about it really: chill the frigg down, let us see what kind of character she is instead of trying to force it down our throats, and expand on some of the points that simply don't make much sense, such as Simon sacrificing himself for her (although to be honest, I'd rather forget all about that).

Of course, at this point I'd rather just have her killed off, and before you start hissing at me, let me explain why.

First of all, I was never a fan of the plucky teenage girl assistant other than the original Maya; the fact that we have had so many different girls in the various games is just downright annoying, and the fact that we also have Pearl AND Trucy around doesn't help things. I still stand by statement that Trucy is the Ace Attorney character in most need of character development, since we don't really know that much about her, and she's related to not one, but two protagonists and has several loose plot threads involving her. Having Phoenix, Apollo AND Athena around will just make it that much harder for her to properly stand on her own two feet as a character.

Secondly, her character arc is more or less done now. People may brand me a hypocrite since I want Maya back, but the two can really not be compared. Maya is the co-star of the original trilogy, Phoenix's best friend and a strong character in her own right. Just because she's the master of some village now (I never did like Kurain, and she finished Trials and Tribulations stating she'd be both the master AND Phoenix's partner, but I digress) doesn't mean she should be gone forever. I want to know what she's up to, what she looks and acts like now and so on. Giving her an entire new subplot when the game should be focusing on Apollo and Trucy might be stretching things, but I don't believe Maya should be left out of the series just because she got a job, is what I'm saying.

Athena, on the other hand, just feels finished. She has solved her obligatory childhood trauma like everyone else and moved on. I never cared for her, but I have an even harder time caring about her now that she's all fine and dandy, and having her act as a third protagonist and assistant, all while developing support characters, will just take away from more interesting characters that have more room to grow.

Thirdly, if she were to be killed off, that might actually make for a very interesting and emotionally investing case. Apollo breaks down, Trucy or Lamiroir is suspected of killing her, Blackquill is the prosecutor, having wasted seven years of his life in jail defending someone who died anyway.

I realize you said we shouldn't kill her off, and I know a lot of people will disagree with me and I know Mr. Yamazaki won't kill off his new pet so easily, but I just feel like it would be for the best.

Spoiler: GK2 spoilers

Spoiler:

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:54 am

Sir Duke

The King of All

Gender: None specified

Rank: Medium-in-training

Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:30 am

Posts: 566

Spoiler: GK2

The king of all, Sir Duke

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:59 am

Rubia Ryu the Royal

Racing through the sky like a Missile

Gender: Female

Location: LA, Japanifornia

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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:17 am

Posts: 6180

Thane wrote:

I'm just afraid they'll hear a lot of the negative feedback on various forums and then try to overcompensate, giving her more screen time than she needs. If she's to become more tolerable or even likeable as a character, she needs to take on a much smaller role so she doesn't feel so damn forced and in your face.

Actually, I doubt they hear anything from forums. Most of the feedback they earn, aside from sales, are from official blogs on sites where staff can collect selected messages from fans. And almost always, the lucky ones whose messages are listed onsite and answered are purely positive feedback. If anything, Athena will stay (alive) because most fans who played this game like her, and the scenario team will most likely keep a major role for her. It won't be forced in our faces as much, though, because she won't have much of a role in the next game's plot, supposedly.

Quote:

Having Phoenix, Apollo AND Athena around will just make it that much harder for her to properly stand on her own two feet as a character.

I say that she still hasn't properly stood on her own as a character, despite our learning of all this about her. She's still a rookie attorney, no matter how you look at her, so she will still earn development from that angle. What she should develop at this point is her personal perspective on law and her career - and so does Apollo. If he missed his chance in this game, then he and Athena can wait for the next one. They'll both need it.

Quote:

I want to know what she's up to, what she looks and acts like now and so on. Giving her an entire new subplot when the game should be focusing on Apollo and Trucy might be stretching things, but I don't believe Maya should be left out of the series just because she got a job, is what I'm saying.

She hasn't been left out. That letter in the last case is meant to signify her ever-presence at the office, without needing to be there. And she certainly can (and probably will) return, but most likely just as a cameo, with little to no involvement in the case on hand... unless we have yet another case of spirit channeling.

Quote:

Thirdly, if she were to be killed off, that might actually make for a very interesting and emotionally investing case. Apollo breaks down, Trucy or Lamiroir is suspected of killing her, Blackquill is the prosecutor, having wasted seven years of his life in jail defending someone who died anyway.

I agree this could work to an extent ~~except for Lamiroir because wth~~. It could even tie in with the so-far superficial "Dark Age of Law" by bringing in a present-day tragedy. However, it also seems like a poor excuse to get rid of a character who has just been introduced in the past game. Not to mention, it'd be bothersome to tie up the loose ends around her background of apparently breaking all plausible bounds. (But this point might not ever be resolved if it won't be crucial to know for a later plot.) To properly put emotional investment in her character, they should show that she can take care of herself and can stand out as a single character in her own right. Those malfunctions, er, anxiety attacks really weigh her down and only leave her problems in the hands of others. That's exactly what Blackquill had been worried about in the first place.

Besides, if we're talking someone's "absence" during a case, let Athena end up in some trouble - like landing into a convenient 3-day coma - and recover completely later. Yay, IVs. Then again, this could be better implemented if she falls unconscious for more than one episode. There would be a strong sense of urgency that lasts over the majority of the game rather than "oops, she's out for a while but will be right up in a few". Besides, this would be a good chance for Phoenix to take Apollo or Trucy as his assistant, if Pearl or Maya don't show up instead.
(Oh wait, someone's gotta keep an eye on Athena in that clinic... even if :hotti:

was already transferred to somewhere else.)

Deadpool 9 wrote:

Spoiler: GK2

Spoiler:

...Is it me, or have these games lately become more chivalrous over the years? They've gone from finding the truth for whomever in trouble to finding the truth for young ladies who we've barely met. It's gender discrimination, I say as a part-time feminist! :ka-whip:

The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:52 am

Thane

Gender: None specified

Rank: Prosecutor

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Posts: 970

Thane wrote:

I'm just afraid they'll hear a lot of the negative feedback on various forums and then try to overcompensate, giving her more screen time than she needs. If she's to become more tolerable or even likeable as a character, she needs to take on a much smaller role so she doesn't feel so damn forced and in your face.

Quote:

Actually, I doubt they hear anything from forums. Most of the feedback they earn, aside from sales, are from official blogs on sites where staff can collect selected messages from fans. And almost always, the lucky ones whose messages are listed onsite and answered are purely positive feedback. If anything, Athena will stay (alive) because most fans who played this game like her, and the scenario team will most likely keep a major role for her. It won't be forced in our faces as much, though, because she won't have much of a role in the next game's plot, supposedly.

While I'm sure they're more concerned with sales, I highly doubt general feedback on forum won't reach them. While they may not dramatically change anything, I think it's safe to say they'll listen to the fans a bit. Now, whether or not they'll listen to non-Japanese fans is another question.

Quote:

Having Phoenix, Apollo AND Athena around will just make it that much harder for her to properly stand on her own two feet as a character.
I say that she still hasn't properly stood on her own as a character, despite our learning of all this about her. She's still a rookie attorney, no matter how you look at her, so she will still earn development from that angle. What she should develop at this point is her personal perspective on law and her career - and so does Apollo. If he missed his chance in this game, then he and Athena can wait for the next one. They'll both need it.

I meant Trucy. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Even though she's related to two protagonists and has several loose plot threads dangling, we still know very little about her and what makes her special. However, judging by the current team's inability to write anything other than panty jokes, I'm not very optimistic about her growth as a character.

Quote:

Thirdly, if she were to be killed off, that might actually make for a very interesting and emotionally investing case. Apollo breaks down, Trucy or Lamiroir is suspected of killing her, Blackquill is the prosecutor, having wasted seven years of his life in jail defending someone who died anyway.

Quote:

I agree this could work to an extent ~~except for Lamiroir because wth~~. It could even tie in with the so-far superficial "Dark Age of Law" by bringing in a present-day tragedy. However, it also seems like a poor excuse to get rid of a character who has just been introduced in the past game. Not to mention, it'd be bothersome to tie up the loose ends around her background of apparently breaking all plausible bounds. (But this point might not ever be resolved if it won't be crucial to know for a later plot.) To properly put emotional investment in her character, they should show that she can take care of herself and can stand out as a single character in her own right. Those malfunctions, er, anxiety attacks really weigh her down and only leave her problems in the hands of others. That's exactly what Blackquill had been worried about in the first place.

I highly doubt they'll touch upon Athena's more confusing merits and deeds whether they opt to kill her or not (which they obviously won't). I'm just saying it would solve a lot of things permanently, all while giving us a nice, emotionally engaging case (my emotion would be joy, of course)

Quote:

Besides, if we're talking someone's "absence" during a case, let Athena end up in some trouble - like landing into a convenient 3-day coma - and recover completely later. Yay, IVs. Then again, this could be better implemented if she falls unconscious for more than one episode. There would be a strong sense of urgency that lasts over the majority of the game rather than "oops, she's out for a while but will be right up in a few". Besides, this would be a good chance for Phoenix to take Apollo or Trucy as his assistant, if Pearl or Maya don't show up instead.
(Oh wait, someone's gotta keep an eye on Athena in that clinic... even if :hotti:

was already transferred to somewhere else.)

See, that's what I'm saying: with Athena around as both a protagonist and assistant, the cast has suddenly become a lot more bloated and limited. Granted, it's not hard to do better than Dual Destinies where she appeared in every single case. Phoenix now really needs to spend more time with practically everyone but Athena, all while staying in the background as the wise mentor figure. Yeah, why was Athena introduced in the first place, again?

Deadpool 9 wrote:

Spoiler: GK2

Quote:

Spoiler:

...Is it me, or have these games lately become more chivalrous over the years? They've gone from finding the truth for whomever in trouble to finding the truth for young ladies who we've barely met. It's gender discrimination, I say as a part-time feminist! :ka-whip:

Spoiler:

Wow I really messed up this reply. Curse this convoluted quote system.

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:32 pm

Sir Duke

The King of All

Gender: None specified

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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:30 am

Posts: 566

Quote:

...Is it me, or have these games lately become more chivalrous over the years? They've gone from finding the truth for whomever in trouble to finding the truth for young ladies who we've barely met. It's gender discrimination, I say as a part-time feminist! :ka-whip:

Maybe Professor Layton rubbed off on Nick :-P

.

The king of all, Sir Duke

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:09 pm

Bad Player

1000% Knight

Gender: Male

Rank: Moderators

Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:06 pm

Posts: 6932

JesusMonroe wrote:

Out of curiosity, assuming Athena is in GS6 (which she likely most definitely will be), what would you guys want to change about her character besides her killing off? Or do you think her character is too far gone?

What I would've wanted most was (1) a few years older, and (2) her trauma affecting her performance in court more (instead of going "ADSLKFJDSLKFJDSLKFADJFLFASNnvm I'm good" a mere two times. Not saying she had to full-on BSOD constantly, but just choke with her words a few times (After all, DD doesn't have enough ellipses!))

It's obviously too late for (1), and (2) wouldn't make much sense in GS6 considering her trauma was "solved" (meaning it will never bother Athena again, because this is fiction)

I'm with Thane. Kill her off :edgey:

But since that obviously won't happen... I want an explanation of her powers, justification for her getting into law so easily (a retcon would be better than nothing...) and possibly more on her relationship with Blackquill back when she was a kid.

It's a catch-22 though, because I don't want Athena to have screentime because she's a bad character, so... I don't want her to have the screentime to do these things xP

This is just a totally random thought, but they could do a plotline involving them messing up and getting a guilty verdict, maybe? It hasn't been done before, and screwing up and costing the case would fit a lot more with Athena's "emotional rookie" persona than Polly's or Nick's.

Spoiler: GK2

Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!

Re: Athena's character (SPOILERS)

Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:54 pm

linkenski

"I'm so sick of Khura'in!"

Gender: Male

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Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:04 pm

Posts: 1637

Gah, I feel like Athena was similar to Kay in some ways, but with Kay it made more sense to have her around because Edgeworth didn't have his version of a perky female side-kick like Phoenix' Maya Fey or Apollo's Trucy Wright. So I've been thinking: Since Athena was more of a side-kick than a protagonist IMO (considering she only had one case out of 5(/6) in which she was the playable Lawyer) who was she for? She ended up sidelining Trucy in favor of herself as Apollo's assistant and Pearl could've been a potentially more prominent character as Phoenix' side-kick if it wasn't for the fact that the game needed Athena for her Psychological analysis during trials.

I wish the explanation given wasn't that she had special hearing, and I honestly wish they'd just been more consequent and kept Pearl out of the game or removed Athena from case 2 -- heck, even just make the mood-matrix entirely accessible through a computer that'd not require Athena's help for neither Apollo or Phoenix' trials.

I remember the first thing I thought when I saw the game, that "Oh, Phoenix is the protagonist again, and they made a new Maya Fey-ish character as his new assistant" so I supposed she would be at Phoenix' side throughout the whole game. In the end the constant half-baked switching around of assistants and attorneys made the game feel a bit too turbulent IMO, and if Trucy and Pearls had been kept out of the game completely I wouldn't have the same feeling of Athena "being in the way" all the time.

This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney