Hello! ^^

I'm new to these forums... but I'm a big Phoenix/Maya fan, so I was happy when I found this thread. :D This will be my first post here~

I haven't read all 42 pages -yet-, but I WILL!

And I plan to draw some fanart too, so if I ever do that, I'll be sure to post it up here. ^^

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Sweet. Thanks much. Is there any way I can get one that says Phoenix Wright's full name though?

Also, it won't let me save that picture to my hard drive :/

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Quick, Someone write a fanfic where we get to see all of the irrational fantasies that pearls came up with that came true!

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Too lazy. Maybe later. =p


Do the next best thing: PrintScreen it. =p

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The time has come for me to contribute something again, to the best pairing in the Ace Attorney universe:

Go watch it, it took me long to make :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePbHutGBEAw

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I might sign up at Gamefaqs later and tell him that it doesn't make any sense, as an outsider I'll just storm at him and tell him it's a load of nonsense Let's hope he'll stop after that, then you take him out after that and PhoenixMaya will rule the Phoenix Wright fandom!

Oh, thanks for the support ;_; I'll try and type and post it tomorrow.
Hey, do you think the type of argument I used at the end of here is wise to hit him with? (Hopefully I made it clear I don't want to continue deconstructing the entire canon in that thread.)

I think he would pay more attention if some other person told him that weird refs to unrelated TV shows and movies is insane and means nothing. Though anybody got a crude ref to a Phoenix/Iris-like pair in something, (which didn't work of course) however tenuous, to give him a receiving end demo of irrelevance?

Lyrics Translation Plz :) Oh and I haven't seen some of the fanart, maybe they were on Deviantart?

[quote="icerHey, do you think the type of argument I used at the end of here is wise to hit him with? (Hopefully I made it clear I don't want to continue deconstructing the entire canon in that thread.)
[/quote]

Lol, I didn't know you were arguing on CR aswell xD There should be a real proper trial on this, in the trial section

Anyway I didn't really understand the argument you used, do you mean that Phoenix chose Maya over Iris because he was more worried about her safety than about Iris her safety? Or am I looking at the wrong part

EDIT: Just posted on Gamefaqs... I acted like I didn't know you from here icer, that alright? Anyway hope I helped and now that I have an account I might post a little more in the debate, if you don't mind ofcourse!

I got the fanarts from all the places, most from DA, but I never save the sources.

Lyrics translation:

Defend me!

Don't say a word, just come close...
Maybe our hearts will hum.
Thick night flies over us,
And it wouldn't leave, if it found me alone...
Kiss me a hundred times,
Be my destiny,
See, the sky was good to us...

Refrain (x2):
Defend me from tomorrow,
Hide me from the evil,
Pervade me, give a hug!
Be light in the dawn,
Let your heart be an angel's,
Defend me,
It's my only wish.

Our dream's been living for long,
If our wing is one, we'll never part.
Our desire still burns,
A beautiful game... can't get enough.
Kiss me a hundred times,
Be my destiny,
See, the sky was good to us...

Refrain (x2)

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The more you write on this topic, the more exponentially easy it gets to write similar... but I hopefully made it clear to the thread 'participants' I'm not going to keep deconstrucing it again. Mostly cause I already did so to exjumbo, gets boring

Probably wrong part. Doesn't matter.

You guys rock. I don't know who that other person is (are they from here or not?) but I think Mr exjumbo will not be reffing further irrelevancy, though I believe he still doesn't get why they are irrelevant. Like I convince him that 'because in game 4 Trucy and Apollo are sidekicks and are not in love because they're siblings' is not a valid comparison but he didn't get why. Oh whatever. I need sleep. Too much time? I multitask on this. The dual wonders of public transport and exercise.


And it's great if you post but regardless of my 'permission' or not I have no right to curtail your freedoms :)

@Szabu - the lyrics do indeed fit.

It's my personal opinion that the only reason Trucy and Polly are siblings is because capcom has a weird sense of humor :/

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It's not about Capcom's humor ... it's about the story, drama, etc. the writers created. They have their reasons.
You can think whatever you want, but I just wanted to point that out.

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Yeah, I know...

still, I hope phoenix tells them soon <_<

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Wow, I loved that slideshow (and that’s not just because it features a violin =P). As for the lyrics, I think they definitely define the pairing spanning the 4 games (or how it should be anyway).

Hmm…I wonder what Phoenix and Maya would do for their honeymoon? Surely being the Master of Kurain has special privileges...

As for the bridge stuff. I’ll get to that when I have time to write it all down. It is Phoenix/Maya and Anti-Phoenix/Iris, but I’m not certain of how well it would hold up to a debate. I’m really impressed by your debate by the way, icer. I can’t see how exjumboe has any will to continue.

"Nick, lets go to our usual joint, ok?"
"Maya, we're supposed to be on our honeymoon..."
"Then lets go to a fancy all you can eat buffet!"
*sighs*

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While some of it is stuff that has already been said countless times, I’ll write down everything I know in regards to the bridge anyway.

DISCLAIMER (applies to all of my posts on the subject): I did not intend to bash Iris. I do like her as a character. I apologize for instances in later posts when they have approached this territory. The original intention of this theory was to provide metaphoric support for the Phoenix/Maya pairing, circumstantial or not.



In any event…they most certainly do deserve to be together after everything that they’ve been through! At least we know that they haven’t completely separated in game 4 because of the DVDs (and the bridge thing…and the reference below). This is more than can be said of any other old character, really.



When Phoenix said: “I could look up some places you might like to stay at...” I couldn’t help thinking that he was referring to Kurain Village. I mean, I think that a magician such as Trucy would certainly be happy living with “Mystic” Maya and Pearl. So the must really be in close contact then. Phoenix has to be able to check on Trucy, after all. And this is just after he lost his badge, so Maya can’t have simply “stormed off in disgust”.

Sadly, his tone of voice seems to indicate that Maya has been gone and he probably won’t be seeing her in person for a long time (he wouldn’t want people to associate the ‘Master of Kurain’ with the ‘Evidence-forging Lawyer’ I guess) so he needs to take in Trucy to make himself feel better (or bring her to Kurain so he can see Maya again/perhaps on a regular basis). They must talk regularly though, I mean if someone I haven’t talked to in 7 years was suddenly in the hospital, I doubt I would know quickly enough to send gifts so quickly, and the fact that the DVDs are something so casual implies that the two are in close, though not in-person, contact.

I’m going by the script here, but according to the script when Phoenix asks Trucy to call him Nick, it is the only time when the word “Nick” is mentioned (along with a “…”; he tends to do that when he is reminiscing). I may be forgetting someone, but the only notable people that call him that are Maya, Pearl (Mr. Nick, close enough), and Larry. The “no living relatives” thing does seem to indicate that it is Maya that is on his mind at the time. Here’s the parallel place:



At the time that it was written, Maya didn’t have any living relatives. Nick takes Trucy in while he is in a state of depression, not having a job, because she has no living relatives. His depressed attitude here parallels his depression when Maya left to train in Kurain in 1-5, so he does miss her. I really hope that they can be together again in game 5.

__

I won’t have them die anymore. But they are willing to die for each other, so that’s not all that hard to do…I guess it’s more the emotion of it all that I like, not the death per say (but spirit mediums make that part somewhat easier). Tony’s death in West Side Story, for example.

I read the prequel fic (well, what has been written so far), and loved it. And then I read the second and cried, but loved it too, and went back and read the first one and felt sick knowing what it would end up being. It’s kind of like what game 4 did to games 2 and 3…But that leads to morbid thoughts.

Last edited by Equilibrate Concerto on Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

Check out these pieces of fanart (i love the first one, Maya you meanie XD). Both include :
http://femmeturk.deviantart.com/art/PW- ... -57491453#
http://xxxchocodogxxx.deviantart.com/ar ... d-89757924

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E. Concerto...
you are A GENIUS.
Your theory is so beautiful and touching and even reasonable I'm turning into a pool of sap right here. In fact, I really do think you're onto something.

No, not every little detail would stand to scrutiny or writers' intention, but in the main, this 'the Hazakurain bridge is a literal metaphor for the Phoenix-Maya partnership etc etc' does seem to be a very, arguably DELIBERATELY implied metaphor. (To support the idea it's deliberate, I mean, the literals of it are very concrete, and 'burn a bridge' is such a cliche metaphor...)

Also, that point you raised about him not knowing Iris was the murderer and just hearing Bikini babble about Iris (maybe sounding like implying she was in danger?) but only caring about and running across the bridge for Maya. Oh and when Iris gives the hood, isn't she ON HER WAY to do some thing in the plot? Can't remember. Doesn't the poison bottle come out of that building where Maya went (that's where Fawles gets it from)? Doesn't Iris offer to unlock the psyche locks to get to Maya [?] but Dahlia just locks Iris in instead? (Again thwarted in helping Phoenix over Dahlia.)

I'd just check up on a few things (I thought Dahlia wore a scarf, not a hood, but I could be wrong), but your post raises so many great new points, I'm thinking of adding some of them in my [pending] 'reply' to exjumbo, if you don't mind of course.

Anyway, I have comments and maybe additions on your theory, but I'll write it when I have time to do your post justice.

Yes yes yes yes yes
3-5 was arguably the 'final and ultimate test' of their partnership, which they passed with increased bond so that it should 'disappear' suddenly 2 months later is... unreasonable

I think I'm going to cry.

I'm afraid I can't agree, he said 'look up', unless the JPN is different, that sounds like orphanages etc.

I have more ideas on this one too...

Sorry if I depressed you, I just noticed 'tragedy' so I rec'd them (I didn't read the non Phoenix-Maya scenes of the later one, Franzy and Edgey were too OOC). Oh yeah, did you ever read my fanfic about the scenario where Maya and Edgeworth weren't in GS4 because they were killed? (Written for that exact request, of course.) I had to make him wake up, even though it ruined the atmosphere - oh I should point out the token symbolism I threw in that one: he numbs the pain by drinking himself unconscious on grape juice and as he falls asleep he clutches a grape juice bottle for emotional support, but when he wakes up he finds Maya's clutching his hand. (I totally love that 'Impossible Dreams' fic)


Thanks for the pics. I love the 2nd one. Awwwww. And Apollo's expression.

Hey.
I just found this topic but haven't read all of it.. (I'm too lazy at the moment, I'll do it later)
I was thinking should I make a maya/phoenix fanfic.. hmmm
If Phoenix was with anyone else imagine how many slaps he'd get from Pearl. Also Phoenix has to go with Maya, it's perfect

+ anyone else BUT it's impossible in my world

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Equilibrate Concerto, you my friend are a hero! You are brilliant! It's a theory which makes lots of sense! I've never really thought this deeply of the things that happen in PW, but this: absolutely Brilliant!


If this can't win us the debate, I don't know what can!
Then Again, I'm not sure Exjumbo will be able to follow it all, as he didn't understand the: STOP USING METAPHORS either...


That fine, welcome to the club! Though if you have time, feel free to do some reading, I'm sure you'll enjoy it!


Please do! There's never enough of those

Speaking of Equilibrate Concerto's genius realization, is there some kind of actual timeline or ordering of events in the whole 3-5 fiasco written somewhere? Like the timing of who was killing who and was locked where and when the bridge caught on fire in relation to events and all that? Timing is important in symbolics and stuff. Um, there was lightning in the 3-1 case too, but I'm not sure if it's relevant..

The one problem with it re: Iris debate is I don't think that the writers were using the bridge to resemble a romance between Phoenix and Maya, merely their 'relationship' which indeed ends up being confirmed as the most important thing to Phoenix. Conclusively more important than a romance with Iris though. Basically, Iris is just part of the 'ultimate test' for their relationship. Arguably, game 1 set up the partnership, game 2 set it to something more (potential for romance, Phoenix risking career/morals/reputation, Maya risking life, love in whatever forms), game 3 tries to test the partnership and set cracks but conclusively fails and it ends with more affirmation than ever.

(urn thing, denial over Pearl scene, IRIS, murder, accusation and entire plot of 3-5) each one the relationship is demonstrated to be stronger. (mature resolution over urn, no spat over 3-2 'talk', no falling out with Maya over Iris, ULTIMATE test of 3-5)

I'm pretty sure there's at least some deliberate implying in both 3-5 itself being the ultimate test on the Phoenix-Maya partnership and the bridge being a metaphor for said partnership. (We've just got to get it in watertight form).

(And if this sounds like some kind of Iris-bashing - I'm afraid it was clear to me she was mostly just some kind of plot device even before I shipped Phoenix/Maya)

This is fun :)

I feel smarter for having read the above essay. Concerto, you should be a literary critic or something.


PxM: proof that video games have artistic merit.

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Excellent theory... there's only one problem that I can see in it right now

There was never a white hood (as far as I can remember at least ) in 3-4... It was a scarf (can't remember what color the scarf was though )

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The Burning Bridge! Let's take a fun trip to the world of insanity is it meta-analysis? 'literary' analysis?


This could be a good point but I'm not totally clear on the proven connections between their relationship and the broken bridge. Also Valerie's role is important here (I wonder how she corresponds to the 3-1 and 3-5 chars?). Iris was going to be in the original diamond fiasco but was too scared to show. I think theres' something here but it needs more evidence (like quotes). Being broken during the murder is important. Important: Does Terry not cross the bridge on the 3-4 case? Which side is the poison bottle buried?

In the original diamond thing, doesn't Dahlia abandon Terry by jumping off the middle? ie. unlike our cute couple they don't cross the bridge together, she betrays him. I think this is important?


I'm afraid this isn't supportable ;_; It's a scarf (does she even wear it on her head?) The 5 year later meeting at the bridge with Dahlia is important though, this is the follow up '5 years later with Dahlia at the bridge' for Phoenix like it was with Fawles. I'm not sure if that relates to Maya directly though.


This is such a beautiful idea!
Fantastic observation.


This is reasonable but I'm not sure it's supportable as being at all implied by the writers. UNLESS you can get more contexts to show they are parallel.

Also, the lightning is a parallel to case 3-1, where the lightning struck down that wire Dahlia used. Exactly when the bridge caught on fire is important for symbolics though (and it happened > hour? after the 'hood'. IF Iris had warned Phoenix then he could have indeed crossed the bridge and saved Maya.)

I'm thinking there's supposed to be something symbolic in the hood though but I'm not sure what - it didn't stop Phoenix landing in the hospital. But maybe it simply was so Iris wasn't wearing it and gave a bandaid solution, with no deeper meaning.


You mean it implies the rest of the bridge wasn't broken, only the end part?

Oh yes.. If this is about Phoenix and Maya's relationship metaphor surviving its ultimate test, then it's even more a stark implied contrast to the failure to survive the burning bridge of Phoenix/Iris in 3-1.

In 3-4 1st incident: VALERIE betrayed Fawles. (and Dahlia gets away) /Iris betrayed Phoenix
5 years later: Dahlia disguised as Valerie betrayed Fawles /Dahlia disguised as Iris in trial
I'm not sure if anything is significant here...


Iris isn't there right? If not, then for all Phoenix knows, Iris could be in danger. (It's important this is checked..)

Okay, so the bridge is the metaphor for their relationship. Do you think the metaphor carries till the end of the case, eg. into the trial? The bridge gets fixed by the time Phoenix can get out of hospital to get back to Hazakura (but I think Maya’s absent in the spirit world as Dahlia is being channelled by then.) and it’s clear he clings to his loyalty to Maya (before Iris) till the last on that day.

When the bridge is fixed note that Iris says she’ll help him and Maya by unlocking the psyche locks and Phoenix again (has to) trust her, but again Iris is thwarted in plans to ‘help’ Phoenix by Dahlia who just locks Iris in instead during the earthquake. (Just adds to failure/betrayal 1 and 2, this isn’t the best ‘functional’ relationship being implied))

The bridge sets on fire – corresponding at what time with Maya being attempted to be killed by Dahlia? Anyone know? Or is it when Dahlia is channelled by Maya?

So, do you think Phoenix running for the bridge is the moment of his ‘big decision’ of commitment to this relationship over anything, (symbolic or literal?) just followed up by his clinging to belief in Maya in the courtroom, or did it happen in his breakdown moment.



Only problem is that Iris doesn't have a metaphoric bridge.

But are you implying something like this:

After the murder, his first worry is Maya (over Iris.) He intends to cross the bridge to make sure she's okay (the usual 'connection of their relationship').
BUT THE BRIDGE IS ON FIRE!

The fire symbolic of the mortal peril both Maya and the Phoenix-Maya partnership are in. (Iris could have warned him, but he didn't know in time, so, distracted by her, he's left it too late.)

Phoenix doesn't know Maya is in mortal peril though, thinks there's just a chance she might be in danger.

In a literal sense, Phoenix proves he will risk his life without thought in an obviously dangerous situation (even though he was scared even when it wasn't burning) to try to prevent the chance Maya MIGHT be in danger.

In a metaphoric sense, Phoenix proves their relationship is worth more to him than life itself, and he will immediately choose to try to save it (by 'crossing the bridge') without thought, before any other scenario (including Iris.)

But of course the fire (caused by lightning, paralleling the lightning which effected the Doug murder cable in 3-1) has progressed too far, it's too late for him to get to Maya and he's almost killed when it breaks.

Is Maya even on Earth at this point or is she channelling Dahlia? Are we to take that their relationship is 'broken' or only their connection (since Maya literally is off in spirit land and not on Earth). Note he only defends Iris after Maya is cut off from him, and spends the time the bridge is broken in the hospital (can't function without her?) Do we stop carrying the metaphor here? (I don't think we can, because Iris fanatics will claim the bridge broke and that was the end of Phoenix/Maya)

I am thinking that the bridge metaphor was somewhat implied. Really. Why else set a bridge on fire if not for a 'burn a bridge' metaphor, or even have it across a bridge like that. Or have him try and run across.

Another is that it was already obvious it was supposed to be Phoenix's ultimate test, and they had to have a test of the Phoenix-Maya partnership in that, and they had to somehow top 2-4. Dahlia and Iris are obviously part of a 'challenge' for the pair, one they survive better than the challenge to Iris/Phoenix.

Anyway, so looks like the writers have made one relationship the centrepiece of their climax case of the series: and it's not Phoenix/Iris. (I knew that already, in the trial it's obvious, this is just more 'supporting indication') Iris' present and future relevance and role in the plot was not as 'girlfriend', that seems clear and there was no attention to setting her up as 'future girlfriend'. This is Phoenix recognising his relationship with Maya as priority at every turn and that relationship taking the spotlight (burning bridge, breakdown etc.).



After such an implication that the partnership will survive practically everything, it's even stupider to expect it 'disappeared 2 months later.'

... and now you've eternally related their game 4-era relationship with a slightly depressing song lyric in my head.

Last edited by icer on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'll have to go to bed now, but I found this on GameFaqs

I've had midterms...what did I miss?

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Wow...I feel extremely flattered that this caused such a stir. I'm glad to have been of help to the cause of Phoenix/Maya!

Firstoff, yeah, I was mistaken about the scarf thing.

I'll respond when I have more time, but I have to get somewhere now and there's lots of traffic outside.

Oh! The second one is mine! Hahaha... thank you, I'm glad you all liked it xD

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Don't know really, did you follow Icer's debate? If so go and read the newest stuff Also read Equilibrate Concerto's post above and you'll be all up to date xD

0_0 What the heck did I get myself into? XD

I’ll get the non-debate related stuff out of the way first

No need to apologize, it was a great Phoenix/Maya fic, nonetheless.


I did read that one. It was indeed excellent, and I’m glad that you gave it a happy ending.

___ ___ ___

Anyway, let’s get started. Court is in session!



Terry and Dahlia are together until this incident. They reach the break in the bridge, and Dahlia jumps off, leaving Terry to get caught by the police. In terms of their relationship, Dahlia is deceiving Terry, just as she was trying to deceive Phoenix. However, in both cases Terry and Phoenix are in the dark about this until the very end. In Terry’s case, this is symbolized by the fact that he remains on the bridge while Dahlia jumps. Also the fact that when Terry meets Dahlia again, she is standing on the broken side of the bridge. Dahlia never built her side of the bridge, it was all in Terry’s head.

As for Valerie’s role, what we know about Valerie:
-Dahlia/Iris’s older sister from a different mother.
-Victim of Case 3-4
-23 at the time of death.
-Sergeant (at the time of death)
-Detective (5 years before)
-Conspired with Dahlia and Fawles to steal the 2mil diamond
-Conspired separately with Dahlia to cut Fawles out of the profits
-Fawles didn’t know that Dahlia betrayed him as well: “shot at me AND Dahlia”

-Testified against Fawles in court, got Fawles sentenced to death:

-Five years later, Fawles escapes and calls her. He tells her to meet on the bridge and ‘wear a white muffler’. Valerie tells Dahlia that the truth must come out. So Dahlia decides to kill her.

I think the key with Valerie, in addition to her betrayal, is the ‘truth’. As you said:


I think it’s significant that both Valerie and Dahlia betray Fawles, but Fawles only knows about Valerie. Similarly, Phoenix only knows about Dahlia, but Iris abandoned Phoenix as well (though Phoenix didn’t know Iris existed).




Also, in 3-5, Iris was supposed to help Godot more than she did, but received the threatening letter from Larry and hid in her room until she got Godot’s call.

Iris must know at the time that it is Maya that she is supposed to help, but is more concerned about ‘her secret’ being told to Nick. By the time that she does get to help Maya, as you said, she instead is thwarted by Dahlia and gets locked in the cavern.

On the other hand, Maya is completely willing to give up her life for someone she doesn’t even know (Adrian Andrews) in case 2-4.





As Hugtenburg said in the quote, the temple where the poison was buried was 15 minutes away from the bridge, the same distance away as Hazakura temple, so it was buried on the temple side.

Also, the bridge:

So the bridge was broken during the time of the murder.

Sadly, this quote also disproves something I said earlier (see below).


Disproven above. I didn’t catch that quote the first time around, sorry. So actually the bridge is unstable in both 3-4 and 3-5. However, I’ve since realized that, honestly, the argument I was trying to make by saying that the bridge in 3-4 was ‘more stable’ was rather irrelevant anyway. So, its actually better that it is rotten in both cases, since it strengthens the ‘surviving drama’ argument.

In other words, no matter how weak or strong the bridge really is, it doesn’t change that Terry and Dahlia cannot cross it together while Phoenix and Maya can. As you stated below:

When conflict occurs in their relationships, symbolized by the rotting bridge in 3-4, Dahlia and Iris leave Terry and Phoenix (as shown in 3-1 and 3-4). However, Maya and Phoenix have demonstrated on several occasions to be able to get through such drama.


Yeah, I guess it was too good to be true. I would say that the parallel isn’t strong enough to be drawn with the ‘equal five years’ alone (as 3-5 was 5 years and 10 months after 3-1, so it’s almost 6 years, whereas pre-3-4 to 3-4 was almost exactly 5 years), but at the end of case 3-4 Phoenix himself (while in the hospital) comments that it has been ‘five years’ since 3-1.


(Just covering my tracks here)

In any event, it definitely looks like an equivalent situation. (Both involve a former ‘girlfriend’ returning after several years, both occur in the vicinity of the same bridge, both murders are stabbings in the back (I don’t think that means anything though), etc.) In any event, there is definitely some sort of parallel there.

Regarding the hood,


The lightning is what gave Dahlia the opportunity to kill Doug Swallow. She does so to silence him, preventing Phoenix from knowing who she really is. This parallels 3-5.
Iris could have warned Phoenix about Dahlia before the bridge burned, but she doesn’t because of Dahlia. Similarly, Doug might have been able to warn Phoenix about Dahlia (he tried), but he couldn’t because Dahlia killed him.

If I remember correctly, Iris needed to not be wearing her hood so that it couldn’t be her flying across the bridge? Here’s the conversation from when she gives the hood to Phoenix:


It certainly seems like the hood means something, however, perhaps it isn’t a ‘bridge burner’.
Hmm…the hood protects the wearer from evil spirits and Dahlia is what one might call an ‘evil spirit’. Iris also says that she is praying for Phoenix’s safety. Iris knows what Elise is going to do, but Phoenix doesn’t…

Wait, if Iris isn’t wearing her hood, but Dahlia would be if she got summoned…then if Phoenix sees Dahlia wandering off toward the bridge that night by chance, he would not think it was Iris because Iris gave her hood to Phoenix and thus not wonder where she is going. So all in all, she is trying to prevent Phoenix from knowing about the whole plot.



Here’s all the time info I could gather from the script, there might be more though:

-Godot saw that the bridge was on fire after he killing Misty/Elise. He realized it was impossible to get the body to the other side of the bridge by himself, necessitating the use of the pendulum, so he called Iris.

-Phoenix talked to Elise at 9:12pm. This is where Phoenix tells her that he doesn’t know where Pearl is.

-Dahlia says in the courtroom that she ‘materialized into the world at about 9:30 PM’ (summoned by Elise).

-Phoenix talks to Iris right after Elise leaves, and finishes talking to her Iris says that she was on the way to ring the 10:00 gong, but doesn’t say where she is going after that. At this point, he states that it is ‘almost 10:00’. He hears the gong as he is falling asleep.

-Iris got the call from Godot at around 10:30. She headed to the bridge.

-It takes less than 5 minutes to go from the bridge to Hazakura temple in a snowmobile (on foot, it takes around 15).

-Iris received a threatening letter that said to go to the Heavenly Hall at 10 or else her
secret would be revealed, but she got scared and hid in her room that night. The letter was from Larry, who is, of course, oblivious to what the real secret is.

-Bikini saw Dahlia sometime after 10:00 on the inner temple side.

-Pearls said that she headed to the inner temple ‘around 9:30 pm’. But she says that there was so much snow that she didn’t get there until after 10:00. She also said that she did try to channel Dahlia right after hearing the bell, but Elise had gotten there first.

-According to the weather report, the lightning struck at approximately 10:45pm

-The weather report also says that the snow stopped at 10:50, it covered up the first set of snowmobile tracks, but not the second.

-By 11:06 pm when Phoenix accidentally steps on Bikini, Iris had already put the seven-branched sword through Elise’s body.

-Bikini said that she had been knocked out for anywhere between 10 and 20 minutes after seeing Iris stab Elise.

-It’s a 20 minute walk from Hazakura to the inner temple.

-Bikini saw Iris after finishing her bath, which she said was around 11.

-Phoenix reaches the bridge at 11:18pm.
__

Phoenix discovered Bikini at 11:06, and she said that she had been out for anywhere between 10 and 20 minutes. If we can trust Bikini’s internal clock (which we can’t really, but there’s better evidence), this means that Iris put the sword through Elise between 10:46 and 10:56. However, Bikini said that she finished her bath at ‘around 11’, so it was probably closer to 10:56.

Iris must have reached the bridge sometime before 10:50 via the snowmobile, because that’s when the snow stopped. By the time Iris got to the bridge, it was already on fire, so she must have arrived after 10:45.

Iris got the phone call from Godot at 10:30, meaning that the murder must have taken place sometime before them. It has to be assumed that Godot made the call for some reason other than the bridge burning down, as it hadn’t happened yet. Either before or after calling Iris, Godot cleans up the crime scene.

Dahlia said that she was summoned at around 9:30, she had to go and get a knife from the storage room and walk to the bridge. It’s around a 20 min walk from Hazakura to the inner temple, however, it might have taken longer in the snow. Bikini said that she made it there after the 10:00 bell, just as Bikini told her to do. This means that the murder must have occurred after 10:00. (So it’s between 10:00 and 10:30)

We know that lightning struck the bridge after the murder, but it is unknown (I think) when Maya woke up.

Iris got finished talking to Phoenix as the time neared 10:00. She probably knew at the time what was going on. Was she distracting Phoenix while Elise summoned Dahlia?

Iris said that she wanted to not interfere with her sister because she was ashamed of betraying her 11 years before…is this the reason for not warning Phoenix?

I’m not quite sure where all of this leads us though.





Yes, Phoenix’s actions during the trial can attest to this. The bridge is fixed by this time, and Phoenix is again showing his loyalty to Maya. The idea of Maya being the murderer is inconceivable to him, while the idea of Maya being dead triggers a complete breakdown.



I think that the moment comes when he chooses to run across the bridge. Everything that he does as far as believing in Maya are examples of his commitment. Phoenix’s breakdown is an example of his reaction to watching the ‘bridge’ actually collapse.



So the lightning symbolically ends Phoenix and Iris’s relationship in 3-1, and threatens to end Phoenix and Maya’s relationship in 3-5. In both cases Phoenix is in denial that either relationship could be over. However, nothing could change the fact that Dahlia was guilty and sentenced to death. Similarly, nothing could change the fact that the bridge was too weakened by the fire and Phoenix fell through.

I’ll bring the following argument up, so that the opposition doesn’t bring it up first:
The poisoned bottle creates a parallel between 3-1 and 3-4 and with the burning bridge in 3-5. In 3-4, both Phoenix and Terry consume it because they believe in their love for Dahlia so strongly. While Terry drinks the poison after he’s lost his faith in Dahlia, the fact that he does drink from it, and his actions during the trial, shows that he still does love her. However, the act of consuming the poison breaks Fawles’ half of the relationship. Similarly, when Phoenix consumes the bottle in 3-1—he had previously referred to the bottle as a symbol of Phoenix and Dahlia’s love—he symbolically breaks the relationship, which becomes literally broken only a short while later. Could the same thing have happened with the bridge?

Indeed, we cannot stop carrying the metaphor here!

The difference between drinking the poisoned bottle and running across the burning bridge, both being foolish acts without thinking, is that the bridge gets fixed afterwards.

If we see Phoenix’s total breakdown as the equivalent to his reaction to Dahlia being sentenced (both make him think that a relationship has ‘ended’), then the difference is the response to his reaction from an outside figure:

In 3-1, Mia tells him that he should forget about Dahlia and move on.

While in 3-5, Godot tells him “once you eliminate the impossible, all that remains is the truth”.
This is where Phoenix’s actions in 3-1 and 3-5 diverge. On one hand, Phoenix begins to see a further relationship with Dahlia as being an impossibility. On the other hand, Phoenix realizes that it is an impossibility for Phoenix and Maya’s relationship, romantic or not, to be put to an end.

And this:




Plus when he went to see Iris in the credits, he took Maya and Pearl with him.



While the most that we can probably get out of the script is an extremely strong bond between the two (as the writers like to leave things ambiguous), it is clear that this relationship is far greater than Phoenix/Iris could be. Although the writers weren’t necessarily indicating romance per se, it seems like Phoenix and Maya’s bond could easily turn into romance in the natural course of events.

Ok, one more thing: the first time Phoenix crosses the bridge after it’s repaired, he’s only allowed to do so with in Franziska’s presence: “Let the prosecution be your guide” or something to that effect. Franziska has the card!

With Phoenix/Iris on the other hand, as you’ve said, romance was already attempted at the end of the trial: Phoenix is given the perfect chance to get back together with Iris, but he doesn’t! This contrasts with Dahlia’s ‘girlfriend’ comment. Phoenix is given the perfect chance to deny a possible relationship with Maya, but he doesn’t.


So even though Phoenix is defending Iris, he puts Maya’s innocence first…


…as shown in this quote where he is certainly not pleased with Iris’s accusation. While it is Dahlia that is testifying, Phoenix hasn’t figured it out yet.


Yes! An ‘illusion’ was what caused Phoenix to go to Hazakura temple in the first place. He said at the end of 3-1 that he didn’t believe that it was ‘the real Dollie’ testifying that day. This is the dream that he puts to rest in 3-5, just as Godot did with his.




This one, however, I don’t think means anything since Bikini did say that the training hall could cave in, and Maya would be the only one in danger from that.


Totally agree.


Sorry about that.

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I still can't beleive people take the pairing arguement this far.
And i think the reason the pairing is so likable is because it ALWAYS includes in some way

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Just a little thing I remembered after reading the massive argument given by the posters here on the last two pages.


After Phoenix recovers after the bridge incident, the bridge is repaired, this time with what appears to be far stronger supports (Long beams crossing the entire span, I believe, it could even be similar to the bridges used in evacuation situations, but this is more guesswork), thus, proving that even with the possible burning of one bridge, the bridge between Phoenix and Maya is further strengthened.


Also, Pearls is only part of the factor, but a major part. She's Pearly, we don't defy her. She's one of the three divine Avatars in the series, the others being Gant, and the Sex God of Coffee, Godot

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I've just discovered that the artist Gallop is bringing out a new Phoenix/Maya doujinshi.

Sample: http://www.green.dti.ne.jp/gallop/info.html
http://www.green.dti.ne.jp/gallop/neko-sample.html

The artwork looks gorgeous.

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I was playing the 3rd case of justice for all, and while in wright and co office, I decided to examine the poster (I had done it before, but I forgot what happened... ) and maya started going on about the nickle samurai movie, nick yawns, and then all maya had to do was look sad and nick was willing to go with her to the movie XD

poor nick... Maya's got nick wrapped around her finger pretty well

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^ Haha, Nick probably knows this, but with the combined front of Pearls and Maya, he'd be hard pressed to resist even if he wanted to.

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LISTEN, YOU. IF YOU MANAGE TO GET HOLD OF THIS WHEN IT'S RELEASED, I SWEAR TO GOD I'M GOING TO TRANSLATE IT.

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I can never seem to find any of the non-Cursor ones, except a few which are really Phoenix/Mia and not relevant to my interests. But hey, maybe there will be a miracle and this one will be more widely distributed. It's kind of thick.

Actually I have this other one which I can never figure out if it's Phoenix/Maya or not. Larry takes Maya on a 'date' and Maya agrees because it's some Steel Samurai thing. Phoenix seems to gets insanely jealous and not only follows in disguise, but drags Edgeworth along with him, also in disguise. In another story, Iris turns up, and hugs Phoenix, and the expression on Phoenix's face is priceless. The artist was not a Phoenix/Iris supporter.

As for the bridge stuff.. I'll get back to that...

Awww, you've been swayed to the OT3?
Come and join us! We have... um
PEARL!

edit: THE BURNING BRIDGE

Okay, I'm starting to think the bridge not only represents the 'relationship' itself, but more the... (I'm not entirely sure how to express it, kind of like the 'Prosecutors' Path in game 2 end) the 'life path' the pair must walk together whilst IN that relationship, with associated obstacles.

This ties in with Dahlia abandoning Terry halfway and jumping (especially since the part beyond her was more conclusively broken and 'difficult') but Phoenix makes his commitment to go the distance at all costs, even if the path involves fire. What do you think?



So Fawles never actually crosses to the other side (the side where Maya was) of the bridge? That would be a big one if it's true...



I do wonder if we're missing some kind of unknown cultural meaning to it. Oh well.

...I also wonder what the COLD means in 3-1, it must mean something. Beyond them letting him cough when he lies and a vague parallel to Godot's mask which dislodges every 2 minutes.




It leads me to think that the writers portray Iris as even more complicit in all this obstructing Phoenix and Maya's safety than I even remembered. I'd forgotten that she was supposed to assist Godot earlier with the less dangerous plot options but arguably her non-appearance led to Plan B, the fatal one. I was kind of hoping to establish a direct connection with the timing of the lightning strike and the timing of something (Dahlia trying to kill Maya, Misty's death etc.) but it's a bit hazy.



The bottle parallel, and it being the relationship breaker by 'eating it' it a stroke of genius, however I'm not quite clear what you're implying about the bridge here?



I think the writers forgot the card (and it was to get some much needed Franzy screentime) but it's a nice thought.


You are so good at this.


Yeah, I just included it because I like Phoenix freaking out over her. All capitals!

In fact, in terms of loyalty and commitment to Phoenix, it's almost like they set out to create Iris an exact opposite of Maya. Iris never, ever follows through. I'm actually beginning to feel sorry for her. Maybe she is supposed to be interpreted to have been almost as scarred as Dahlia by stupid Morgan. Note that in 3-1 she abandons him at the trial, and in 3-5 she does too - day 1 with Edgeworth has Iris, but by day 2, she's let Dahlia lock her away and again Dahlia goes in Iris' place to the trial.

Speaking of which, I've been wondering if the earth swallowed your books, Icey-chan. =p I've been waiting for some new material for a while.

Also, news, guys: I'll probably (VERY SOON) be redesigning Hold It to have an updated layout, more closely focused on the kind of doujinshi we all love (Nick/Maya). Regarding this, I was wondering one thing: What do you guys think? I found this CURSOR story that's flat-out porn, but it's very intimate and very cute, so should I try to translate it and publish it, or should I keep the site to worksafe stuff? =p

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YAY Maya and Phoenix <3

I hate the thought of Phoenix and Iris, I'm completely jealous on behalf of Maya LOL

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Oh gosh, look at all the comment
:note: note to self: visit more frequently
Working on Maya/Phoenix fanfic now; I tell you once I get a page up
I have a question
you know the MiaXDiego pairing is also called Mieago or was it Miego; can't remeber but does the Phoenix.Maya have a name like that?
Just wondering - that would be cool

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