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Sorry, Bad, I KNEW someone would use the "Snow" argument!... I was just waiting for someone to fall for it.

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I haven't played this case in forever... nor did I pay much attention T_T I said I forgot what they said about it snowing or whatever!

Anyway, it would be swinging as it goes down. There is just no way for it to go down perfectly straight (things swing!)

If it hit at the right angle, it could've tipped over...

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They have the case on Youtube... if you're too lazy to play through it again (But for crying out loud, they say it at the starting testimony... Maybe even before that!).

Anyways, yes, it would swing, but he's lowering it over the side of the window, NOT with his hands outside of the window. The swinging would be minimal, not erratic. If he was lowering it while hanging outside the window, then yes, the momentum would've been great enough, but not in this case.

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I think there are too many unknowns in this situation for us to declare it a contradiction. All we know is that Acro lowered the box, using a rope somehow. We don't know if it had any fasteners (hooks or otherwise). We don't know if he trained Money to untie it (he could have shoved something shiny in the knot knowing Money would want to get to it?) Maybe he lowered it partway and then shook the rope until the box fell free - we know what Moe was doing at the time of the murder but we don't know exactly where he was or what he was doing before that, so "he would have heard the thump" isn't a legitimate argument.

Maybe it was even lowered far beforehand. The only time Acro could be positive that no one would be in the courtyard to see the box lowered is during the rehearsal. Even if Moe went back to his room straight after, it was dark and he was tired--he could have missed seeing the box. I don't recall if he mentioned that specifically in his testimony though. One of the few cases Gamefaqs doesn't have a full script of...

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Alright, there's only 2 things I wanna clarify with this:

1. "Maybe it was even lowered far beforehand".

I'm SO sick of people saying this, so here's the time when it stopped snowing and, therefore, an approximate time for when it was lowered:



I'll give it from this time, until the murder itself, for it to be lowered... And yes, I got that too.



And here's the second part of your message I wanna criticizeclarify.

"Even if Moe went back to his room straight after, it was dark and he was tired--he could have missed seeing the box."

Okay, as much as I respect how you formulated your argument, ARE YOU SERIOUS!?



There's a LIGHT illuminating the area the Chest was in! If anything, it would be impossible for Moe to miss it. There would be two things Moe couldn't miss: Anything located under a light, and the Door to the Lodging House. Everything else is excused because he was fatigued.

As for the rest of the argument, the "Money Untying it" theory actually holds water, in that we KNOW Money was either going to, or coming from, the Lodging House, around the time of its' encounter with Ben...

"One of the few cases Gamefaqs doesn't have a full script of..."

Hey, there's always Youtube!

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It's official. You win.

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I think I still post somewhat regularly, it's just mostly in Hazakurain and the general video games forum. I don't have too much to say about the games that are out that I haven't already.

Anyway, just because the box was sitting under a light doesn't mean Moe couldn't have missed it. Given the circumstances, it's UNLIKELY he missed it, but that's not the same thing. Unless you can prove it's completely impossible for Moe to have not seen the box, it's not a contradiction.

Actually, it's even possible that he did see the box but it just didn't register in his mind as being unusual. I mean, it's just a box.

And since the Money theory hasn't been disproven, that can be a plausible explanation for getting the rope off the box.

---

I'll mention you in my upcoming Youtube Video.



I'm only gonna argue on the third point: It's not "just a box". It's a box, placed outside, with no snow on it, underneath a single "Light", in between Moe and his Destination (The Door)... On top of that, it's also Locked. I'll admit, if I saw that, I'd at LEAST stop and look around, considering a large box isn't exactly the kind of thing someone would "drop accidentally"...

And it's a shame all points have been argued... You, Croik, & Regy were my 3 favorite people to debate against!

... 'Course, Bad Player kind've replaced Regy since then, as I barely see Regy at all...

... Oh! I just remembered... looking back at the pictures above... Does anyone else notice the light keeps moving? First it's directly over the Chest (Image of Barry picking up the chest), and then it's on top of the Bust (Image showing Moe's Window)... but later on, it'll be BACK over the Chest again (Image of the Murder Victim on the chest)... What's up with that?

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Well, there is one reason why Moe didn't see the box...
Unless I'm mistaken, in the shot you see that "Max" is standing in front of it, and then he flies off. If I were Moe, I'd be more interested in the flying man, than a box.
Course, that begs the question why he didn't see Max fly into Acro's room but we can put that down to the lack of light.

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Capybara, we're talking about why Moe didn't see it while on his way TO the lodging house... not when he was already inside.

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Awesome! Just so I know, what's your YouTube account?

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I'll send ya a PM regarding it.

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Ah, my mistake. Sorry.

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Wow. A whole one and a quarter pages on a single cough-up. New record?

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Wrestle I don't see how the snowfall affects the time the box was lowered. The snow stopped at 9:40. Rehearsal was in session until around 10. That's still 20 minutes for the box to be lowered: after the snow so that there is no snow on the box, but before rehearsal let out, so that Acro knew there would be no one in the courtyard. So if the box was lowered at 9:50 that means no one saw it, and Moe must have missed seeing it (or ignored it or forgot as soon as his head hit the pillow or what not) on his way back.

Not to mention the fact that there isn't snow on the box doesn't necessarily mean it had to have been lowered after the end of the snowfall. Russel came to get the box. He very well could have simply dusted it off in his attempt to open it. You wouldn't try to pick up a box covered in snow.

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Another possibility was that Acro had control of the light that was shining beneath his room, or both him and Moe had light switches. Either one of them would have trouble sleeping with a light outside their window. Who can say he didn't turn it on when he suspected the "murderer's" arrival? (Set's trap for Wrestlemania)
For what it's worth, I read all 45 pages of this thread over yesterday and today, so I know what progress has been made on what. Also, if I read one more post on the channeling clothes from 2-2 or 3-5, I'm going to be driven insane.

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First of all, regarding the starting point: It could have snowed well past 9:40.

... Yes, I'm using Franziska's argument from 3-5... again. Sue me.

Now then, regarding the dusting... Russell went there in hopes that he would get whatever was there, and then immediately leave. He wouldn't take the time to dust the box off... In fact, if he did, Acro would've been alerted and dropped the bust... but from the picture, we KNOW Russell was picking it up at that point in time.



That's it, I'm calling you out on it now: Pick a Stance. Either he tried to open it, or picked it up. Acro would've been alerted no matter what, so it doesn't matter much either way, but pick a stance so I can only focus on one, please...



"Moe must have missed seeing it" is quite the bold statement (yes, we all see what I did there. ), Croik... Do you care to prove that Moe missed a box that was under the only light outside the Lodging House?

... I'm sorry, I'm not really mad about that, more the "He must've forgotten seeing it" part... The case showed Moe was trustworthy... The case showed he remembered things in Detail... The "lies" he made, were him trying to switch his story around to please Franziska von Karma.

Now, that said... he remembered the state of the crime scene after his friend died... if that wouldn't cause the presence of what his friend died on top of, to click in his carrot-and-string-hat-adorned head, nothing could... what I'm TRYING to say is this:

If there was a chest, Moe would've remembered, as it had something to do with the Murder: It was what Russell Berry, his friend, died upon.



*looks at their post count*

Oh ho ho ho HO! I got a new Puny Bug for me to Squash!



... Man, I need a vacation... Anyways...

I'm sorry to say, but I'm very tired after typing all that to Croik... but, I WILL show this:



Notice, there's no light switch anywhere on the inside of the room, on the wall, near the window... So no, he couldn't control the outside lights... Not just that, but as we know, he couldn't check outside (remember his testimony?).

... Yes, I'm well aware where you put your trap... I HAVE ALMOST 9000 POSTS, FOR CHRISSAKES! I didn't get all those on the "PW Funnies" topic!

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Jumping back in here.


First off, why would Russell have been in such a rush? Did he think someone was going to catch him with a perfectly innoncent-looking trunk and decide something fishy was up?
On that note, it only would have taken a few seconds to dust some snow off. I'd think he would look more suspicious if he was caught with a box that he was in such a hurry to move that he didn't bother cleaning the top off and got snow all over himself.


The proof is that he didn't testify about the box. No matter how reliable a witness Moe may have been, nobody's perfect and everyone misses things from time to time. He didn't see the hat that was knocked off Russell's head, so that alone proves his account wasn't flawless.
The game says Moe either didn't see the box or didn't feel it was important enough to mention. If you want to say that's wrong, the only one who has anything to prove is you.

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YAY!... (I really do miss these debates I used t'have on here, so yes, I AM glad to see you & Croik giving me a challenge. )



He's dressed like Max Galactica, already, he's suspicious enough at this point! (I hope I don't have to explain why the Ringmaster dressing as Max would be suspicious... because unless someone counters with "They cosplay as well!", I don't see much more room for debate on that... )

You know, here's another thing I want to bring up now since you mentioned the "Rush" part. He wasn't doing this without a time limit: He was speaking with Max beforehand, and said he'd be back in a few minutes...

... Actually, he might've said "5" or "10" or "15" minutes, but I'm unsure this time... My point is, he was rushed to do this... He wanted to look inconspicuous [Which was dumb since the first person (or people) who he walked by recognized him anyways...] while he went to the "location". He didn't know what would be there... the note never said "Get the chest from under the light outside the Lodging House"...

... But now we're sidetracking. (Who's "We"!? Ugh...)

Regarding the dusting, I'll bring this up again: If he took the time to dust it off, even quickly, Acro would've heard "movement" and dropped the bust... Actually, One more thing I have to bring up regarding that... but let's wait first.



I WAS ASKING CROIK!!! ... Nah, just kiddin' ya. I have an actual retort for your statement.

You know, I'm going to bring this up now: Regarding Moe "Missing" the box... I find no flaws in the idea that if the box WAS there, he would have remembered it considering it was a part of what would be the crime scene.

I see logic in the argument that he DID see it, in fact, and didn't get to mention it.

... And I believe his habit of trying to make people laugh, when applied in court, is what caused this piece of information to be left out. Allow me to show what I mean:



Got it? Alright, let's look at the first three statements... Keep in mind, everyone should know by now what he replied with for the first & second ones.



In the first statement, if you press it, Phoenix asks a question of "time", not "observation"... Regardless, Moe replies with a "Set-Up" for a joke.

In the second statement... well, that's obvious.

Now, here's the problem: Between the First & Third statements, lies what we're missing: "What did you notice on your way to the lodging house?".

The remaining testimonies he gives talk about the Silhouette, and "The Truth"... But all of them start with him already in the room, and thus, are useless to determine what else he saw.


Alright, here's a quick "summary" of the stances regarding Moe & The Chest.

Side 1: Because it wasn't lowered yet , Moe did not see the Chest.
Side 2: Because of fatigue, mixed with ignorance (as in, he simply didn't see it), Moe did not see the Chest.
Side 3: Moe saw the Chest, but didn't bother mentioning it in his testimony.

Okay. MY stance is Side 1, and I'm gonna try proving it a bit differently... If the chest was there, and Moe walked by it, why didn't Acro drop the bust? He would've been alerted as to the presence of "someone" after all... With this in mind, my opinion is that if Acro had the Bust ready, he would've dropped it. He would've dropped the bust, if the Chest was down... Therefore, he didn't drop the bust, because it wasn't ready to be dropped yet... as the Chest had yet to be lowered.

(I want to say this now: There is a VERY easy "counterargument" for the statement I just made, so I'll wait to see someone make it... I AM aware of what it is, though, but anyone who knows me on CR, knows I love leaving little "hints" for people to call me out on. )

One last thing: Of course he didn't see the hat knocked off of Russell's head! It didn't fall off upon "Impact", it fell off when he went to grab the chest!



As this clearly shows. Now... Here's a problem: Why would he have known about the hat at the crime scene!? He never went outside to check on Russell (to our knowledge)...

... Actually, that's a good question: Why DIDN'T Moe check on Russell to make sure he was alright!?

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He wanted to grab 'it' and leave? How would he know about the box? He fully expected to see a person there, and have a meeting of sorts. Until he heard some sort of grunt that signified the box being lifted, Acro wouldn't risk missing his only chance to get his 'revenge'


I'll have to concede that if Moe had seen it, he wouldn't have forgotten it.


Ha...! Name's Ledundead. I've never lost an argument on this site. Never won one either.


You've made a terrible mistake, 'amigo'. You used a 'testimony' picture, not an actual picture. I've read through here, I know what's considered proof. And that is most assuredly not proof. Or did this happen? There's no wheelchair in your picture either. Finally, the fourth wall is not shown.
Beyond that, define what a light switch looks like in the PW universe. Maybe it was a clap-on. Maybe it was a proximity light. But, you may not have dodged my trap as cleanly as you thought.
Footsteps. Who's the one person who walks by Acro's lodge so often he could conceivably be able to tell them by the sound of their footsteps in the snow? Moe, his roommate. If he heard unfamiliar footsteps, he would activate the trap. He's not blind or anything, so he doesn't have super hearing. He can't tell a person's size or weight by the sound of their footsteps. He can only tell what his most common visitor's footsteps sounded like.
I've been on this site for months. I joined recently to ask a question when I had trouble downloading a bunch of fan remixed songs. I haven't had much else to say that needed to be said. And I know you got a few hundred posts in this topic. I read them all.
Also, regarding the Pearl/Maya/Misty power struggle, one point was never brought up that could solve it quite cleanly:

EDIT:

Side 4: Acro hid the chest after it was lowered in order to prevent Moe discovering it.
Also, my footsteps theory seems to refute your Side 1 idea fairly well.

---

Anyway, two things I'm going to point out:
1. Acro could tell who it was. The point he made in his testimony is that he could've see where the person was. He should've been able to see the entrance to the courtyard, so he could've seen it was Russell.
2. How exactly was Acro supposed to hide the chest after lowing it? I mean, it's not like he could make it disappear with magic...

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I've never thought that they meant the Master's power as in the clan. D'oh.
On the second point, I have two theories. One, he turned the light off. Two, he covered the box with his bedsheet. Not his green covers, but his white bedsheet. He used the rope to lower it, and pulled it up when...wait. He couldn't have seen who it was out his window or he wouldn't have killed Russel Berry. He wanted REGINA dead! I stick by my footsteps theory on this one. That's how he knew when to pull it up. He then quickly retied the rope to the bust.
As for how he lowered the chest, I have a theory. He threaded one end of the rope through both handles, then held BOTH ends of the rope and lowered it horizontally, and almost certainly silently. To pull it back up, he simply let go of one of the ends of the rope and pulled the other one, and this is where he either tied the rope to the bedsheet or the bust. Any objections?

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You actually raise a good question, in that if he WAS expecting someone to be there, why bother with the box at all? I'll re-check the case later on...



'Sup? I'm the guy with the most posts on the forum. Nice t'meet ya.



... You're new, so I'll forgive ya for not understanding that I use "ese" tributively, not casually... so "mockings" like that wouldn't go through without me scolding ya if you knew me for long enough... Again though, you're new.



Actually, it is proof. "Flashback Images" aren't "unreliable", the only problem that truly lies in them, is showing the SUBJECT of which the lie is in... so the silhouette.

The light SWITCH would be there whether it was a "false scenerio" or not. It's a detail in the room that has no visible "bearing", therefore, there's no reason for it to not be showing.



That proves nothing for you if it isn't, or for me if it is. My claim is for you to counter, and here it is:

The chair is foldable.

This explains why it's not visible: It could be under the bed, or even stuffed into the right side of it.

I'll let you question that, but I DO have "Non-Foldable" arguments as well... I'll get to those later because I'm on a bit of a "time limit".



I'm aware of that, and because that would have no bearing on anything, I used the image I used, to show the wall next to the window... OBVIOUSLY, there's a switch on the inside of the room next to the door, if anywhere in the room... That's kind've basic "Room Design" rules... make light switches easily accessible from the room entrance.



(... You're quickly growing on me as someone who I think I can learn to like... if it wasn't for that whole "amigo" thing, I'd call ya pretty cool right about now...)

... Alright, I can show you 3 "Light Switches" in the PW Universe... Rather, rooms where they're visible.


(Last one is harder to see...)

We also KNOW they still use Light Switches in the AA series... They "Switch" the lights on, on the stage in 4-3, after all...

THAT SAID!... The idea that they use clappers or proximity lights is amusing considering the lodging house as a whole looks trashy as hell... but since it took me forever to look up those images, and I'm tired, I'll say that your idea of the proximity light is plausible (Clapper, however, is not... he was trying to hold up the bust, after all, and wouldn't be able to clap it on).



I disagree, actually... Hearing the sound of someone walking in the snow, is much more difficult for someone to identify than on concrete or wood...



Well you should've made an account sooner, dammit!



And my counter for your footsteps theory brings us back to square one.

*notices new posts*

*facepalms* I'll be back later to answer the new theories... right now, I'm gonna go get something to eat. *walks away*

Edit: Okay, I'm back.



... But seriously though, let's continue.



Erm... No.



... OH! Alright, then! Coupled together, then yes, it might be possible... although him turning off an "outside light" is impossible with "Proximity Switches", and the point of a "On & Off" switch on the wall to the side was disproved (Sort of... I KNOW you have a counter-argument for it, but I'm just waiting for it...)



Alright, you have an argument that holds water for now, you have yet to discuss how he low... oh wait, it's right here!



... Yes... And this is painful to say but...

He couldn't have done all of the things you mentioned... He could do the "lowering", he could do the "covering", but not both.

Here's why: If he tied the rope to both handles, and then he chose to cover it temporarily so that others couldn't see it, it would mean he didn't do both together... If the rope was with the cover while lowered, then taking the rope back would mean that the cover would've been tugged off of the chest as well. Keep in mind that the chest would've HAD to have the rope above it, not below, or else it would've been tilting constantly on the way down... And in order to properly BALANCE the chest while it was going down (assuming he tied it under anyways...), the Rope would have to be about 3-4 times the size of a rope that would be used, if it was lowered by one handle... Not exactly the type of rope one would have just lying around...

So anyways, if it was above the chest, it would be impossible to cover it. If it was below the chest, it would tilt... And for the last part, tying the rope to the bedsheet and lowering it would require a ridiculous amount of precision and luck... No wind? Okay, maybe, but how the heck would one go about planting the bedsheet perfectly on the chest to "conceal" it!? It's a Bedsheet, not a chest or bust...

One more thing: Regina brings him breakfast daily, and takes out his trash... if he knew what Moe sounded like, he would know what REGINA sounded like!

---

Oh! I'm really sorry about that. I was imitating Godot, he always called Nick either Trite or amigo. I started off with a Godot quote, so I tried to keep it running through the post a bit. I'm sorry if I offended you.


I find the foldable argument sound. There's no reason to doubt it. There is also no reasonable contradicting evidence, besides the fact that the bottom must be strong enough to hold a large metal bust. But that's a quirk of design, not necessarily a contradiction.


Darn. His hands were full, I forgot. It would have been difficult for him to roll his wheel chair to a light switch and flick it with one hand. He would have to set the bust down on a raised surface once he picked it up, or else he couldn't get it up again.


Well, this theory of mine depends on what the date of the crime was, and if it was reasonable to assume that Acro could have heard Moe walking on snow fairly often.


I was off buying an awesome hat for my friend's birthday.
EDIT:

Agh! Well, the bedsheet beyond a doubt couldn't be lowered that way then, and the threaded through the chest's handles idea is the only possible idea we've had for a quiet way for the box to go down. I concede those points. So...how did he not activate the trap on Moe then? My thoughts: He was waiting for the footsteps to stop. Hell, I don't think Acro even knew exactly what noise he was waiting for. Moe could have been telling himself bad jokes and laughing, which he admits he does since no one else does. But, don't forget what has been proven.
1: Acro could not recognize anyone's footsteps.
2: Until another possible solution to the box being lowered is presented, the bedsheet idea is impossible.
One final thing about the bedsheet, if we figure it out: It could have taken the snow on top of the box with it, explaining that contradiction.

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Last edited by Ledundead on Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

About either lowering it or covering it...

If he lowered it like that, then he could have it land very softly on the ground without making a sound. If that were the case, he could lower it after Moe went into his room, and he wouldn't have needed to cover it.

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Last edited by Bad Player on Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

We have a battle of wits going on in here!

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...Of course! (My first reaction)
And it only contradicts Moe's obliviousness! The falling box would have set off the proximity light, but assuming I was wrong on that account and it was a normal light that was always on, then yes, it works. Brilliant deduction, Bad Player.

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Got some good news for you there.
The day of the crime was the day after Christmas. It's not unreasonable to think that it could have been snowing for a while, and Moe's footsteps on the snow could have been heard rather often, to and from the lodge building.

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Sadly, none of that matters now. Wrestlemania pointed out a devastating contradiction in that theory: Regina brought Acro his food and took out his trash. Acro would know her footsteps even better than Moe's. My new idea is that Moe was telling himself bad jokes and laughing at them on the way to the lodge. Acro would have heard him doing this often. [ASSUMPTION]Acro knew that Moe would be back to the lodge before the murderer.[/ASSUMPTION] He then waited for Moe to enter the lodge. Acro then looped the rope through the two handles of the chest and lowered it out the window using both ends of the rope. He then released one end and pulled the other to retrieve the rope. (Note: We have no idea of the rope's full length, as far as I can tell) He then retied the rope to the bust and dangled it out of the window exactly where he had the box previously. The final step required Acro to wait patiently for the sound of a person lifting the box to drop Max's bust on where the person's head should be if they were lifting a heavy object like the box. He then pulled the bust back up and the events of 2-3 took place.

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In 1-3, Wendy said that she arrived there at 1.00, but Jack Hammer went there afterwards. Now, how come there wasn't a photo of Jackhammer? There were 2 photos, but one was of Cody Hackins, and the other was of Will Powers. She wouldn't have deleted it if it was of Jack Hammer.

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She assumed he went there afterwards. That's her 'endearing character trait', pal. Hammer was disguised as the Steel Samurai, and there were more pictures for the day. The pictures she presented were for past 1 o'clock, I think. I could be wrong, but I think she assumed Hammer went before 1 o'clock, and the camera was not on for some reason. Otherwise we'd have seen Dee and Sal and the bigwigs in pictures. It's not a contradiction, it's a hole in her story no one pointed out that makes sense once you learn all the facts of the case.

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It's funny how, like, 90% of what we talked about had nothing to do with the original contradiction. Heh...

Here's the ONLY problem remaining with the "looping"... What was said, was that it was "tied to the chest", not "looped through the handles"...



And FINALLY, someone brings up Moe possibly talking with himself outside... TOOK LONG ENOUGH! Ugh...

Lemme add one more thing for now: An example of something that weighs 20 points, is a Tire.

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But who said that? Was is Nick or Acro? If Nick said it, then the point is moot. Do you think Acro would interrupt Nick and say, "No, I looped it through the handles. Also I didn't do it." Acro denied his involvement until the bust was found.
EDIT: Congrats on having the 1800th post, Wrestlemania.

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Unfortunately, unless either character confirms it, we only have what Nick assumes, and what we assume.

I guess if this was a Myth on "Mythbusters", it would end as being deemed "Plausible"...

... I hate it when myths end like that... And Thanks! Heh... *looks at his post count* Ever-Closer to Number 9000!!!

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...2 whole pages of a single cough up. O_O

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*turns to Croik*

Hey, I think we beat the previous "Gerkuman vs. Wrestlemania" record on this topic! (The one about 3-5?). Heh...

... Who wants to count the Character Total!?

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So... close... to finding a real contradiction...

Oh well. At least the largest(?) debate in this thread's history came from it.

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Felt it was necessary. But, I agree. Possible, but unlikely. On to the next contradiction!
I don't even want to think about 3-5 and the arguments you guys had over it, that case popped up so many times on this thread it almost drove me insane. That said, any legitimate objection would be fine... Well...that's not really true, by "any" I mean those that have a "contradicti...

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Forgive me for intruding on this conversation, but didn't Ben say in his testimony that he had to help Moe back into his apartment because he was "close to kneeling over for good". Maybe either the box was lowered while Moe was recovering or it was already there and he missed it because Ben had to carry him there. But if the later happened, then Ben should of saw it. Why didn't Ben say anything. I don't know.

And that brings me to something else that bugs me. How did Ben carry Moe back to his room when Moe is about twice the size of Ben? I doubt Ben had any thing to help him carry Moe.