Thanks for that :)
I'll see for myself when T&T/GS3 is released then as I havent played it yet.

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Okay.


Phoenix/Franziska.


I don't get this at ALL, but I've seen people shipping it lately.

Someone want to tell me WTF is up with it? >_>

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I don't get that either TBH. Fransizka is hot, but she and Nick hate each other's guts.

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Well, by T&T I wouldn't characterize it as HATE anymore, though he's not exactly fond of her and Franziska is still world-champion grudge holder.

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Oh, right.
I'm just basing my theory on JFA. Maybe by T&T he develops an Edgey like respect for her, even if he doesnt really like her?

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I think the reason P/F is seen as a viable couple is that it follows a very classic cliche. "Girl picks on boy, because girl secretly likes boy". Their interaction in 3-5 is also exceedingly cute.

But, for me personally...I think what people tend to miss is that there's no a single instance where Franziska really shows Phoenix her softer side. That one moment in the series is reserved for her brother--and I like that.

It makes the GS world revolve a little less around Phoenix, and allows for other characters to have important bonds that don't relate back to him. By putting the focus of Fran's duality entirely back on Phoenix, I think you flatten her as a character considerably.

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That dialogue cracked me up.
I thought the train station scene alluded to romance (or something deeper than friendship) too...

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EllOhEll @ Toby Danger's post

Phoenix/Franziska : Not my favorite pairing, but one I do like occasionally. I agree with musouka: it's the whole tsundere (sp? anyone know?) dynamic...Plus, the little "memento" Franzy took @ the end of JFA could be interpreted many ways. 3-5 probably offers the most evidence to this pairing. Besides, she does pay an *awful* lot of attention to him (even if it's negative)...But really, it may be cute in theory, but it's pretty much completely OOC for them both, imho.

Phoenix/Regina! I think they make a cute couple together.

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Oh sweetie, that is so not fabulous


I kid, I kid

Phoenix worked with Mia for years; I think he'd be used to huge (Fey) knockers by now.

Talking seriously for a moment, I suppose part of my problem with the "oh look, Maya's suddenly hawt" scenario is that it suggests the only reason he treats her like a little sister is because of her breasts, or lackthereof. But you know, when Pearl or Maya is channeling Mia and she's practically bursting out of her robes, Phoenix never even remarks on it. We see a lot of evidence he's attracted to women--and to be perfectly honest, it's pretty clear his tastes run "cute" rather than "hot"--but never does he seem to distill them down to body parts he's attracted to.

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I think all the AA characters should trancend time and space to have a huge orgy. Then everyone would be happy.

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Ha! I second this idea so much

But as he's worked with Mia for some time, maybe he learnt to control his urges? :D
As for the train station scene, does it show Maya's confidence is actually low and she needs propping up? Or that she does want Nick to praise her as she's fed up of being told how childish she is and she'd like him to be warmer toward her?
He seems friendlier in GS2 and talks about how much she means to him ("I have all sorts of unforgettable memories about her"), and how it seems she's has been away for "ages" (even though it was only 2 months).

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Since Croik and Rza made me come

Whos the cuter couple

&
&

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Between those two, Phoenix and Iris.

Overall, Phoenix and Edgeworth. >_>

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Agreed on both terms.

There are few things cuter than college-age Phoenix/Iris, but as a P/E fangirl, I too have to throw in my vote for .

Now, since this is the debate thread...

I think there are a few moments in 3-5 especially that P/M fans will be happy about, but the overall tone of the third game pretty much kills them as a romantic couple for me. Maya repeatedly says she has to be a good "big sister" to Pearl, and Phoenix. When people compare one another to siblings, that's usually the death knell for a romantic relationship IMO. On the other hand, Phoenix and Iris have many sweet moments, and it's impossible to deny that there is something left between them--and that there probably always will be. But I think the circumstances of how their previous relationship broke apart, combined with the passage of time makes them unlikely to kindle a romantic relationship again.

(MSoB said something in the locked thread I wanted to address about Phoenix and Edgeworth's relationship. Edgeworth chartered that jet because he thought Phoenix was seriously hurt, not because their job demanded it. Phoenix and Edgeworth, above all else, are friends, so it makes little sense to try to constrain their relationship to a mere courtroom setting, however often that serves as their meeting place.)

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I think is possible these pairings
/ In my Personally opinion, they can to be like a brother and sister. But, if you think, normally the relationship of two siblings, especially compared them differences of ages, is "everyone has his friends, his room, his life"
But I think Manfred Von Karma ALWAYS (I dunno who is the person say me this T.T) watch both are study for being prosecutors. And the relationship between Franny (and edgey) and Manfred are like a teacher and a Pupil (also, I think Franny really loves her father after all). Its posible Franny and edgey haven't got their own friends in Germany. So, only they have the each other.
She calls him brother because he really take care about her. ("Little" because she is condescending like her father XD)(but in the game and for me there aren't a brother and sister grew up together for all last. They are two child who grew up together and their relationship is reaally closed. And sorry, many fics about another non-phoenix pairings make me thing two childhood friends can going to be more than friends
(you can kill me for this)

/ She loves him, and Zenitora after all say she "it" is for take care about her (spoilers reason)

/ ohhhh, She is him kitten XD and they are oficially pairing, (Studying the events of that case together)

Adrian/celeste She depends to her, it is a amazing relationship and I love it. Well, when Celeste deads, all is close XD (Not is the same with franny, only maybe in the case they met. But after, I think adrian didn't need someone to live)



After this,You know you can kill me. But is only my personal opinion...

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All right, since the Least Favorite seemed to have some Phoenix/Iris discussion going on, let's move it here.



Phoenix/Iris. Viable? No?

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I'm totally with you on this one and think I have said so at length in another thread. ie. love them as a cute college couple. As adults? Too much baggage unless there was a lot of time and a lot of work put into mending all the broken pieces.

Here's the thread where I eloquently bumbled through my reasoning: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=4559&start=0

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Yay~ Finally someone says it. If you can't tell already, I'm a / fan, but I'm still debating on if I like them as a couple or not. So far I haven't seen too much discussion on this couple because tons of people rule it out because of the incest argument. Normally this might be the case, but when we think about the Von Karma lifestyle, would they really have felt that they were a family? First of all, I have a hard time picturing Manfred signing adoption papers and calling the son of the man he held such hatred for (and murdered) his own son. Besides, Edgey kept his last name. Doesn't that mean he wasn't legally adopted to begin with? We can only be skeptical about how Manfred treats children, but considering that Franziska became a prosecutor at the age of 13, they were most likely forced to study law their entire youth-deprived time together. Therefore, as mentioned by Yoru-chan, maybe they felt more like pupils studying under a mentor. If they saw it this way, it would seem like they were childhood friends who studied together and grew up together, being the support for each other that their mentor/father wouldn't be. With this basis established, people probably wouldn't hesitate to say that it's not impossible for childhood friends to become romantically involved.

Now, for the "little brother" comment. Perhaps when they were growing up, Franziska felt this kind of closeness to Miles. And with childhood friends, sometimes old nicknames get "stuck" and are hard to change. Heck, little kids in general give nicknames to their close friends, period. Perhaps Franziska had this issue just because she was always used to calling Miles her "little brother" when they were in Germany and probably wouldn't think twice to call him that in adulthood. So for her to all of a sudden stop saying it would probably be something weird for her. Maybe during the years, the meaning behind that nickname changed, who knows. I think I read in a / essay that she would call him that in an attempt to show that she still holds some standing against him because she's a Von Karma and refuses to see him as the "older, superior" one, or something like that (I probably explained it terribly lol), but it does make sense to me. This is all speculation, and we'll never know.

Now, to explain why i like them. Their relationship is very interesting, especially after I finished T&T I loved them even more. Let's cover some basics: Franziska has incredible expectations from her father to be a perfect genius. She has worked all her life to maintain those expectations. Enter Miles, the prodigy. He could be what Franziska worked so hard to be, but she always felt like she's walking in his shadow so to speak because she could seeing him succeed where she can't (although I'm not sure exactly where.. she entered the courtroom when she was 13, and Miles did at 20 o_O). On the other hand though, considering that they don't have much outside their lives besides studying law, they had to hold onto each other in order to survive Manfred's tutelage. This whole time, Franziska was probably hoping she'd be able to surpass Miles one day, or at least become a worthy rival. Then he up and leaves to go to another country. I'm sure she felt betrayed that he would just leave her like that after all they've been through. This is probably the maturity difference with Miles and Franziska. Miles was looking forward to his career and Franziska was still holding onto him (being older would do that I guess lol). Enter Phoenix Wright, the man who defeated her "little brother." The / essay explained this nicely too, so I'll try to paraphrase it. Phoenix was the only person who has defeated both Miles and her father, so she saw it as the proof to herself (and possibly Miles) that she could be just as good, if not better, than them. Some of it is probably revenge for them as well, since the Von Karma name has a reputation to uphold, which she has always felt was her duty to protect. When she finally tracks Miles down, however, she sees that his way of thinking has changed. It was no longer about "getting a perfect record" like they were raised to believe. In fact, Phoenix was the one who "saved" him from that mentality. He has, once again, attained something beyond her grasp, moving on ahead of her. She wants so much for Miles to see her at the same level as him that it's adorable. At the end when they chat at the airport it becomes very clear. Franziska keeps emphasizing she's not the "girl" he grew up with anymore. She wanted him to see her as a woman on equal standing with him (her "revenge" on him as it would seem). This is where Miles seems to have understood what she's been trying to do all this time. He also thought she would react the same way he did during the first game, which is why he speculated to her, "Are you running away?" Because he experienced the exact same thing Franziska was going through at the end of JFA, he had faith that she could change. She could learn what it means to prosecute, just like he did. Miles could understand her way of thinking and her difficulties because he endured them alongside her, which is what makes this pair so powerful to me. And he could tell she wanted to change, and prove herself as an individual, not under his or Manfred's shadow. I'll pull out a few quotes now:

"Today, you chased after me, after I left you behind all these years. And that's why we're standing here side by side. But I have no intention of stopping. If you say you are going to quit your walk down the prosecutor's path,.. then, this is where we part ways, Franziska Von Karma."

To me, Miles here was saying that she has indeed become strong, and experience-wise, they are at more or less equal footing. But he knows that the journey is never over. He challenged her to not give up after she worked so hard to get where she is. He seemed to have difficulty saying, "If you choose to give up, this is goodbye." We all agree that Miles would speculatively be very high maintenance and would have high expectations on his partner. This shows to me that maybe he respected Franziska for that reason, that she holds herself high and never gave up during her quest to be the "perfect successor to the Von Karma" name. He wouldn't want a partner who was weak-willed and gave up easily, and if Franziska chose to be that person, he can't do anything about her decision.

After he says that, Franziska then starts to cry and says:
"I... I am Franziska Von Karma. Don't think I'm going to walk in your shadow forever... Our battle... begins now.. so you had better prepare yourself... Miles Edgeworth!"

In other words, she accepted his challenge. She refuses at the end to give up, and she's going to keep fighting to keep up with Miles and become her own person through it. It would seem that she also couldn't stand the thought of being in a world without Miles, which COULD have explained why she started to cry. (awwwww)

Ok... that was JFA. *T&T Spoilers now~~~* When you play as Miles as defense attorney, he had to set up the court so that the participants wouldn't recognize him, or would keep his secret that he was a prosecutor. And who does he call to prosecute? Franziska. I would like to think it was more than the fact that he knew Franziska wouldn't blab his secret. It definitely wasn't convenient for her since she mentioned she had to fly into the country for this trial after all. I'd like this to carry the meaning that he thought she would be an equal rival in court now. Personally, I loved seeing them duke it out on both sides. It showed them working together as a team to bring out the truth, and at the same time help out Phoenix who was temporarily out of commission. This also seems to show that perhaps during her time away, Franziska may have found her answer as well, which brings her once again closer to Miles. During the investigation afterward, they both helped Phoenix out with the investigation, but when the earthquake struck, Franziska insisted on Miles not to push himself too hard because it was clear that he was shaken up by it. It's almost like a reminder between them that "the case isn't everything, taking care of yourself is important too," which is probably something Manfred Von Karma didn't really teach them. In other words, they're trying to reinforce in each other not to fall back on their old habits on being the "invincible prosecutor." They're both trying to learn that they're only human, and they want to remind each other of that fact so as not to be haunted by the Manfred ghost of perfectionism again.

This dynamic of "iron sharpening iron" I think is what draws me to them. Whether it is romantic or not is another story. These qualities COULD exist in a relationship, or perhaps a friendship with a deep understanding of "I know where you came from." I myself am debating on this. In any case though, I love what they do for each other in a subtle way that no one can understand except for them.

And omg long rant, had so many things to say, sorry!!!

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My basic problem with the dodging from the "siblings" issue is that under that logic you can work your way around any way any one character refers to another character. Franziska, twice, refers to Edgeworth as her brother figure, but for all we know she doesn't really mean it--Maya refers to herself as Phoenix's sister figure, but we can speculate that she doesn't mean it. Edgeworth says he grew to respect Phoenix, but we can speculate that he didn't mean it. Phoenix mentions that Maya is the "person closest to him", but did he...? etc etc etc. And it goes on and on. Yes, there are ways to dodge it if you just love the couple that much, but...

With Franziska and Edgeworth in particular, I really liked every instance of interaction you mentioned here--the problem is, I very quickly cease liking it if it's interpreted as romantic, because there's an undertone of dismissal and power imbalance to a lot of them. It hits me as deeply disturbing that a man would threaten to walk away from a woman he loves forever, leaving her in tears, if she doesn't learn to see things the way he does--but I can accept it as a gesture of tough love from a brother to a sister. In the third game, when Franziska is scolding Edgeworth and forcing him to basically "go to his room", I was cracking up because it was screaming "elder sister". But again, I'd be a little concerned if a woman allowed the person she was in love with to go crawling off by himself out of self-loathing with no issue--but as a sister, it's understandable. There's generally that undertone of exasperated affection that reflects two kids who grew up with each other and were each others' family, and know each other better than anyone because of that. Edgeworth's attitude towards Franziska reflects this in JfA, too, even with the airport scene aside.

But I think what it comes down to is that I don't see what either of them would get from each other in a romance that they don't as siblings--what it would add to their dynamic--and more importantly, I think they would lose a lot of what they mean to each other. Family means security, it means trust, it means that person is a part of you and you will always be there and you know that person best of almost anyone else without question. For Edgeworth and Franziska, two people with a lot of mental instability and not a lot of people close to them, this is an invaluable, precious thing. To throw in romance is to throw instability, tension, and uncertainty into the equation, and Edgeworth in particular, I think, doesn't show any inclination towards feeling that way for Franziska. The whole "walking away, good luck figuring stuff out, peace" was sort of the nail in the coffin there, and while I think his calling her out in T&T showed how much he thought of her and how much he trusted her, it's hard for me to swing that in an E/F way when Franziska is also getting bitchy over his focus on Phoenix at the same time.

And on a more personal level, I love and really appreciate that Edgeworth can be the most special and important person in Franziska's life, without that automatically meaning that she's in love with him.

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E/F...my stand on this is pretty much that I can't stand that people disregard the fact that (for Franziska) at least, they were raised as siblings; and naturally under Karma were prolly pitted against each other quite viciously and potentially traumatically.

The fact they have any sort of affection at all is an amazing feat in such a stressful environment. In that sense, I say there IS sibling love, no doubt, between them.

As a pairing...I'll have to say no. I don't like how 'foster' relations are taken into less account than biological relations. More often than not in fandom, it's taken as one less nasty loophole (in this case, actual biological incest) to circumvent for their fandom.

On the other hand, we have people who find the pairing appealing because they get to have the thrill of 'incest-but-not-really' if they support it. Now, this is my personal opinion, and I don't believe in having altruistic reasons for the support of pairings; but supporting a pairing simply because it's somehow appealing 'deviant' should be reserved for hentai, and never as a discussion for an actual basis in canon.

Now, a bit more explanation on my support/non-support of E/F.

From plot details, I have to say firmly no. Obviously there's affection (as much affection as these two can show anyway), and it's a familial affection. Franziska does indeed reserve better treatment for Edgeworth in the courtroom, being much less antagonistic and respectful of his observations and ability (although she does whip him, which I think is just a supremely bad bad habit on her part that her father obviously encouraged). Edgeworth on his part, seems to be taking a more detached 'elder brother' stance now (although it's said Franziska regards Edgeworth as a younger brother, I always thought that was more in regards to their abilities, and it's become much less now as Franziska is left behind by Phoenix and Edgeworth. She's starting to act her age.)

If anything, I actually find the Gumshoe x Franziska far more plausible. Phoenix x Franziska I think, is a typical pairing that would occur and it's cute, but I don't think it holds much water (at least on Phoenix's part).

Personally, I would love to debate the future matrimonial prospects of Ron x Desiree, but only when you all are ready.

Ahahaha. I'm not Edgeworth or Franziska, so I can't speak for them, but on a personal level--if someone tried to suggest that the people who raised me weren't "really" my parents or the boy I grew up with wasn't "really" my brother, because of lack of blood ties, my first inclination is to punch them in the face. But that's just me! :P

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Raelle & Byakko: I agree with your points, and honestly that's what's keeping me from really going all shipper-like on the pair. When I saw them at first I didn't see them as a couple at all (until I came to these forums ). I was just fascinated with the kind of interactions they had with each other. Although, from the small part of me that would like to acknowledge them as a couple, I could for argument's sake stretch it into the idea that they would probably be the kind of couple who "toughen it out" and don't expect hand-holding from each other. It's a different kind of relationship that isn't seen very often, but if you wanted to stretch it, it could be a possibility.

As for the foster family argument, well I outlined one interpretation of it in my previous post. No need to repeat lol.

But anyways, glad to hear your points. Just trying to even out the less likely pairs a little bit. ^^

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Your sig is awesome, Aevitas XD

I love those two. <3 (though, uh, as we've been discussing, not as romantic)

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Yes, my sig also tells all...
(not even actual) Siblings? And? So what? I just think they'd be a great couple...
Also, I think Matt/Dahlia is pretty awesome

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Reading this thread up to this point has certainly interesting ,so now I'm going to throw my two cents worth in.

I personally like / , and there were quite a few echoes of it throughout the first game. I don't think they were involved or anything prior or during the games, but there was an undercurrent in thier interactions. Perhaps if she hadn't died it might have occured, but as she died, we only see thier relationship as a "could have been". but I suppose that's what fanfiction is for.

I can see where the / fans come from, so i can't really say a whole lot bad about that pairing, but it always acame across, to me at least, as a good friendship with some professional clashing along the way.

The whole / kinda wierded me out though, because, honestly, I think they have more of a sibling relationship going on. They obviously care about each other, but thier relationship seems to be more of a "watch out for your brother/sister" one. and the same goes for /

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Oh, lord.

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Huh. I think you were speaking into the wind upthread.

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In the words of George and Harold:
"Uh oh. Here we go again."

lol.

In the immortal words of Kel:

"AWWWW, HERE IT GOES."

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Sex?



I don't like or support E/F, but I don't necessarily think it's fair to say that people "lose" something when they go from friends to lovers (or in this case, family to lovers). Becoming intimate doesn't have to take away the security, trust, and companionship two people share, if they already have those things to begin with. Familial relatinships can be just as rocky, tense, and painful as romantic ones, and being in love doesn't necessarily mean hardship and instability. It's all a matter of how things work out.

The argument a lot of non-shippers make against any number of pairings is "they're already best friends - if they become lovers, it takes away from that friendship." As if being lovers is less complicated or "cheaper" than being friends. And admittedly, a lot of romance writers do take complicated friendships and dumb them down for the sake of their favorite pairing. But as I see it, that is always a product of execution on the part of the shipper.

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My take is that over-generalizing that shift, period, isn't the smartest or fairest thing to do. Each relationship has its own nuances. It grates me when people bust out the "it ruins their friendship" excuse without being willing to elaborate or back up just what they mean by that, but that also doesn't mean that it never applies to any relationship, ever.

F and E do have a really interesting, rocky, complex relationship, and I like that they can have that as family without having to bring sex or sexual tension into it. But that's me!

But a sibling provides an inherently different kind of support than a lover does. With Edgeworth and Franziska, specifically, the type of support they show each other is one that I think is unique to a sibling dynamic, and I love what they provide to each other in that way that no one else can. So to me, to change that dynamic is to lose something. No one besides Edgeworth can ever be Franziska's "little brother" and have the insights that that role provides into her, and be able to support her in the way being her little brother can--see the oft-repeated example of the airport scene, and why I enjoy it as a scene between siblings, and not so much as a scene between potential lovers. I personally don't like the idea of losing the tone of what the unique siblings bond brings--that familial bond that gives the oppurtunity for those kinds of exchanges.

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Gonna bring this one up too.

So, uh...

...what should we debate now? >_>

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Miles/Edgeworth? ....=D

There's already the gay or GAY thread, and besides, with heavyweights like Funk paying attention to the discussion you pretty much know what the supposed "debate" will look like.

I say we discuss Trucy/Cody/Pearl threesomes.

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Alone time =/= Gay
But, because I'm a pushover, I'll bite on that one.
...*goes to check Trucy's age*

Phoenix/Iris.

Ho-HO.


...well, it's the closest thing to a het ship I can see Nick in, but I still don't really see it as viable. Or at least, not viable without like a HUGE effort, because they have lots and lots of baggage.

Iris betrayed him. You can't get over that easily.

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