He didn't even know her sister's name or anything about her family so they weren't that close by this point. Let's meet the family is usually reserved for later in a relationship and not as a "Oh my sister's coming by tonight. Let's all go out together" afterthought. As far as taking him out for a drink goes, that really isn't that uncommon in business circles as a form of celebration and his winning his first trial was a very big deal. She is proud of him and so she takes him out for a drink to celebrate. If Mia was a guy, would you still say the same thing about those things?
Edit: the exact wording of that quote by the way is "Say, how about dinner. On me? We'll drink a toast to innocent Butz!" At no point does she suggest going "up" anywhere. She's taking her student out for a well deserved celebratory meal which makes sense considering how happy she was about the verdict and what a "satisfying note" it ended on.

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Well, if you read it more carefully and take notice everything before, then I'm sure Mia is saying "Could you tell me about you and Larry over drinks DURING dinner?" That's how I interpret it from the script here on the website and playing the game again.

Thanks for the support, JudgeBro! If you are open to the possibilities of a Phoenix/Channeled!Mia pairing, then you might enjoy my story, or what is there of it yet. Do check it out if you are into reading fanfiction...

As for the mentor/student relationship, that really becomes less and less of an issue as the game goes on. Over the course of the series, Phoenix learns more and more to stand on his own legs, becoming Mia's equal and depending on her additional help only in a crisis. At the end of 3-5, Mia clearly states that Phoenix has surpassed her, managing to do something she would not have been able to.


That's exactly the problem I was talking about when I lamented about Phoenix/Channeled!Mia receiving so little consideration. Don't let little things like death get into the way of love!!


I don't think you can really judge a romantic relationship with someone who is dead by the same standards as normal relationships. Mia being around part-time only simplifies quite a few things, and I do believe that it is workable without Maya or Pearl making sacrifices that they would not be able to bear, at least for as long as they remain a part of Phoenix's life. It would be like a long-distance relationship, only with less travel time!

Channeling power may be a concern for Maya, less so for Pearl, as she is reputedly very powerful. The way she charged the Magatama in case 2-2 without any sort of strain supports this. But Maya, too, has come quite a way since those early cases where she complains about the inadequacy of her powers and often fails to channel Mia when she tries really hard.

As for it being Maya's body(or Pearl's) with Mia inside, the way the games depict it, the whole body changes to assume the shape of the spirit's old body. About all that gets left as it is is the hair, which is just protein and doesn't change. I think that if Mia were to whip out her old lawyer clothes and change Pearl's hairstyle into what she used to wear, she could make a fairly good attempt at looking exactly like she did before she died. I believe that Phoenix got over seeing Mia with Maya's or Pearl's hairstyles a long time ago.


Quizer

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I am quite into reading fan fiction, but I'll admit that I'm not too crazy over... any pairings involving Mia. But I am still supportive on your side of the story, jus' sayin'.

Back on topic, I don't think Phoenix even... cared much about hair during channeling. There's no dialog about that. Um... I'm blabbering nonsense again, ignore me...

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Well, we've only had glimpses of how Phoenix reacts to his mentor. From all the memories he had, I suppose it is possible. You do have to remember that Maya was able to channel Dahlia for nearly 2 days in T&T. Obviously the shock of the spirit leaving is rather hard for Maya to comprehend then. So channelling Mia wouldn't be so much of a trouble for a short period of time. Possibly one day or so. Pearl would probably be able to hold Mia a lot longer given her powers at spiritual channelling. Given that, I wouldn't think it wouldn't be unreasonable for Mia to keep in touch with Phoenix. But a long term relationship might be hard...

Honestly I never saw any romance between Phoenix and Mia. She does invite Phoenix out for drinks at the end of the case, but right afterwards Phoenix says, "We never got the chance." A month passed, and they never got the chance to have a conversation about their personal lives? Plus, at the end of that case Larry is already flirting over Mia and Phoenix doesn't seem to care. He just complains that Larry is paying more attention to Mia than him, when *he's* the one that won the case. But then, the writers knew she was about to die, so I don't think they ever intended to imply the pair was or could be a couple.

Not to mention in the "Phoeonix/ChannelMia" relationship, that still disregards the huge sacrifice that Maya and/or Pearl would have to make for them. It's not just about taking time out regularly, it's about giving up your entire body. I can't imagine any way that wouldn't be creepy, especially if the relationship was sexual. Plus, it effectively ruins any chance Maya or Pearl could have of being in a romantic relationship. They're going to have a hell of a time finding suitors as is, considering the problems Kurain has with men--add to that "Once a week I summon my dead sister so that she can use my body to have sex with her boyfriend" and there goes any hope of a husband for Maya.

I know Mia is an important person in a lot of lives, but she's still dead. Sooner or later they all have to move on. It's not healthy to dwell on the dead, and it would be selfish of Mia to ask everyone to rearrange their lives for her.

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Agreed. That line of argument probably has shot down most of the support for that. Plus Mia did say at the end of T&T that Phoenix doesn't need her around any more or on the lines similar to that.

OKay, next argument...

I do agree that Maya and/or Pearl would have trouble finding suitors with that sort of arrangement. Still, I think I will be able to show a fairly convincing and interesting way this could be made to work with my story, at least to those who aren't opposed to the possibility from the start. Hopefully I'll be able to finish the main part of the story soon...

All in all, your comments ring true when you look at it realistically, but it is a neat idea and a fun fantasy, one that I think deserves more fanfiction coverage than it currently gets.


Quizer

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What Bruce Goldberg said. Croik won the Phoenix/Channeled!Mia debate.

Next debate? Um....... any ideas? I would post an idea for this one... crack couple, but I have absolute no grounds for it.

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and

Personally, I'm all for the idea that she came to America to punish Phoenix for "hurting" her little brother (since her father lived in America and she in Germany---they can't be too close). Only to discover that Edgeworth owed his life to Phoenix and that the two share a bizarre friendship.

Then, after getting clobbered by Phoenix twice in court....decides to soften her attitude to him as she becomes infatuated with the only person able to beat her.

It's possible Francie is a classic http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tsundere

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That wasn't why she went though.

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I think anything that Fran claims regarding her feelings should not be taken at face value.

Especially the idea that Edgeworth would be "punished" by defeating Phoenix.

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Why should we doubt her there?

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True that Mia, but there is one question that you overlooked in JFA...

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I see. This is probably the reason why I can't debate. I just can't get enough ammo for myself to dig myself out...

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T&T had a funny way of leaving room for almost every fan pairing to have a window of possibility. Even though I don't support Phoenix/Franny pairing, I posted this quote in the PW3 quotes thread:

It's been more than a year since I last saw Franziska myself. But it seems that she's been dying to see you again.
She really said that...?
I believe she wants to eat you for breakfast! Or to put it another way, whip you silly. Literally and metaphorically.
Oh.
Go on, let her have her way! It would make for a great anecdote for my trip!
Forget it, Edgeworth!

You get that dialogue when you present Franny's profile to Edgey when he's gone into the garden.
So.. that's something for shippers (or non-shippers) to chew on I guess.

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0_o

I noticed that, too.

Franzy seemed really flirty in 3-5. Like, to the point of OOC-ness.

With everyone BUT the guy I occasionally ship her with.

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It's pretty difficult to figure out the reasons to her behavior. I took it as she's trying to change, but she doesn't really know how to interact with people she knows really well. This was another dialogue that raises some questions:

That's precisely why I'm here. To destroy you in a case that means so much to you!
...(It's probably the fever, but... She's so openly hostile that it's almost kinda cute.)
No smirking!

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Well, in any case, I think we could call that argument with / over now...

I might start up another debate...this time, it's not supporting a pairing but more about arguing AGAINST a pairing.

The pairing in question: /

Well, here goes...



That's how I feel for this relationship. Anyone wants to argue?

..... Klavier x Ema? Ew.



I'm not entirely sure why I don't like Klavier x Ema. I guess it's because back in my day, Ema x Edgeworth used to be my OTP. Now I don't have an OTP because I don't like the idea of having an OTP now....

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I think that belongs more in this thread doesn't it?

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Being a staunch member of the Ema/Miles camp, I've been opposed, on principle, to Ema/Klavier. I wonder where else we've seen the "working relationship" dynamic taken to another level... oh, right. Gumshoe and Miles. Here is where I make a loosely threaded ad hominem attack on such silly pairings.

I'm against the development of an Ema/Klavier relationship in canon because it seems rather one-sided. It's been noted by others that Ema treats Klavier with a relatively distant air, and she's hardly the only target for his attentions. With things as they stand now, it would be a simple case of Klavier coaxing the bitch queen out of her shell - especially in games with such limited narrative scope. It'd be a little unfair to have an entire case centered around pushing a pairing into the foreground (with 3-3, Gumshoe and Maggey are more minor characters when compared to how central Ema and Klavier will be in the AJ arc, and in 3-5 it was still open-ended with the bit on Phoenix and Iris). Not just unfair to the fans, but unfair to the quality of the case, in my opinion. I don't know about you, but I play for hot lawyer action, not HOT LAWYER ACTION.

Getting away from the "this is how it should be" thread, I just don't see much depth evolving out of the relationship. It's an adorable mechanic, indeed a tried and true dynamic, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best choice.

Debate General's Warning: This post has no cred. MSOB hasn't played through GS4, and has only cursory recollection of the case descriptions and walkthroughs.

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Yes I realize that. But I may as well take part in some discussion here... hopefully without a lot of hate for this pairing coming out with me. In short: I'd like a fair discussion on this even though I hate this pairing.

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I thought this thread is for BOTH sides, not just ones you hate or support. All I did was throw in an argument and was waiting to see if there are people that support this pairing. Hence the debate about that pairing...

It's true is more personable in T&T, and says "You know, she's so openly hostile it's almost kinda cute..." but look at the way reacts after that scene. Unless we're dealing with "Girl is mean to boy, because girl secretly likes boy"

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Okay, I think I'll throw my hat in the ring now. My general pairing thoughts...

: This is without doubt my absolute favorite pairing. It's both incredibly sweet and delightfully ironic at the same time. I realize this pairing has been debated to death, so I will keep my promotion of it brief and try to stick with stuff that hasn't been discussed at length. To begin, Iris is the only person in the PW universe I can call to mind--other than perhaps Misty--who is unqualifiedly kind to him. Not even Mia can resist being mean to him on occasion. Furthermore, they each have a solid understanding of the other to build on and their bond has proven extremely resilient. She may have deceived him about her name those years ago, but by the time their courtship was cut short, he knew her personality very well as we are forcefully reminded at the end of 3-5. He may have called her by the wrong name, but it turns out he was absolutely right about the character of the woman he in fact dated--shyness, meekness, and all. On this basis, I contend that he doesn't have to work that hard at getting reacquainted with her. He had been steeling himself for the revelation that the Hazakura nun was in fact Dahlia--the woman he'd watched tear him to shreds on the witness stand. Having prepared himself to relive the murder of a classmate and his own narrow escape from the noose, he must've ultimately breathed a giant sigh of relief when he learned Iris really was Iris and her deep-seated secret was a well-intentioned lie. Squaring the nature of the secret with her deferential and meek personality, it would all make perfect sense to him. Combine this with the extenuating circumstances and I'm confident that he'd be quite willing to put it all behind him and let her start at roughly the level where they left off. The main problem here would be getting her to forgive herself and I'm certain he would gladly help her along in this regard. I know I would.

: This would be #2 on my list. If you'll pardon my saying, this pairing does not get anywhere near enough respect within fandom. Anyway, redemption and irony are two of my favorite literary devices and these two have this kind of potential in spades. They may have shared a house for several years as children and formed a sibling bond, but that doesn't mean they can't transcend it. This brings me to the strength of their sibling bond. I don't think it's that insurmountably strong. Manfred was as much a cause of division between them as a cause of unity. He may have gathered them under one roof, but he never fully integrated Miles into the family. The name "Edgeworth" stuck and Manfred had no qualms about framing Miles for murder. In self-defense, Miles ended up helping get Manfred convicted. Yes, Manfred was guilty, but Franziska was not and that conviction deprived her of a father. Now this is not to say that their road to love would be short or smooth. Franziska has some growing to do and I think we see that process taking place in 3-5. Neither do I claim that this love would necessarily flower out of conscious intent. I think they would grow on each other almost entirely by accident and that's part of what makes this pairing so fun to write fic for. I see seeds of intent in Franziska, but they're just that: seeds. They could drive her to stay close to him, but I don't think she would admit that to herself right away. Most likely, she'd disguise these seeds as competetitive instinct, as much to convince herself as convince Miles. In Miles I see latent attraction to her, but it's dormant and would have to be awakened by an external stimulus. To a certain extent, they remind me of Benedick and Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing. Writing fic for them is challenging work, but intensely rewarding in my experience.

: With all due respect, I'm quite certain that these two are emotionally incompatible in the extreme. Phoenix strikes me as a very sensitive man and one to stuff his frustrations until they burst forth in a volcanic eruption of temper if not frequently and gently sounded out and soothed. Miles is too caustic, emotionally rough-hewn, and generally...edgy to get along very well with Phoenix on an intimate footing. Miles would end up annoying Phoenix constantly, intentionally or not. Phoenix would alternately discomfit and disgust Miles with his seemingly random outbursts. These two are much too volatile a mix to form a stable couple. In my mind's eye, putting them together is like leaning a lit menorah against a crate full of dynamite.

: I'll concede that Adrian has the makings of a lesbian and Franziska could make a convincing "butch", but I don't think this pairing is a healthy one. Adrian has very strong codependent inclinations and these will only be reinforced by a dominatrix like Franziska. Franziska's development would also be stunted, as Adrian's worship would encourage her overbearing tendencies. Aside from the bad relational habits this pairing would encourage, there is a distinct likelihood that Franziska would eventually tire of Adrian's neediness and abandon her, leaving Adrian suicidal yet again.

: These two would be #3 on my list along with Phoenix/Maya. Part of the charm for me is that they deserve each other as much as they like each other. I'll admit that I get a little schadenfreude out of watching him twit her. She has some self-righteous, queenly, sometimes petty tendencies for which Diego serves as a nice foil. Conversely, he has brash and flippant tendencies for which Mia serves as a nice foil. This also helps make their sweet moments all the sweeter.

: There's a lot of cuteness to be had here. Phoenix's potentially volcanic temper would pose a problem, but Maya's likely reaction to it would ease the fallout a bit. When confronted with a strong enough outburst, Maya has an endearing tendency of showing genuine remorse and to a lesser extent repentance. It wouldn't neutralize the problem, but it would lessen it.

: This is not very high on my list--in fact, it just occurred to me--but I'd like to see it happen. Will deserves a wife and I think he'd be good for Adrian. She herself acknowledged that he's a nice man...

: I was pretty big on this pairing until I played 3-1. Watching her savage young Feenie in court lowered my opinion of her a few pegs. I think there was potential here, but the question would dog Phoenix constantly as to whether she really respected him as an equal or viewed him as more of a son.

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I'm not big on Ema/Klavier either, but they're absolutely nothing like Gumshoe and Edgeworth.

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I'm not really sure where you get this impression. Are there any canon scenes you can use to bolster this statement?



And, again, any scenes where we see Edgeworth annoying Phoenix? Most of the time, his reactions to Edgeworth's moodiness are along the lines of a sigh and a shake to the head (1-4 and 3-5)--which is exactly what Edgeworth needs. Pity doesn't work and is only more likely to upset him--but both Phoenix and Franziska know that it's "just the way he is". By the time 3-5 rolls around, Phoenix even goes out of his way to comfort him--Fran doesn't--in a way he didn't in 1-4.



And, again, I really don't know what you're referring to here, but I can think of one huge outburst that Edgeworth accepted without being discomfited or disgusted. The one where Phoenix told him he should have died.



Both of them are more stable than you've given them credit for. Not only that, but both of them are familiar with one another and are inclined to give the other leeway when they do get emotional, without coddling them or making them feel worse. Whether it's Phoenix's line in 1-4 about preparing his case to save Edgeworth even after Edgeworth confessed to the murder, or Edgeworth throwing the trial because of Phoenix in 2-4, both have shown an ability to read the other and give them exactly what they need at the time in a way others in the cast simply can't.

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I agree with you about: / , / , and / :iris: - I love Phoenix/Maya, they're very cute buts its been said by the end of 3-5 there's no chance of romance (though there are some lines I was happy about! :D ) - Just what did Phoenix want to say?
I thought a few times (eg end of 1-4) it could lead to romance.

/ - Maybe there's hints in 1-1 / 1-2 but it may be more theyre just friends. Interesting they start off their relationship like a "romantic comedy" (ie not liking each other). Knowing how they act later, its hard to watch Mia savage Phoenix in court, at this point she sees him as a bit of a dick (he is a bit of a loser then to be fair) :D

I thought Phoenix/Iris was really cute too - and the relvelation that was in fact bang on about the personality of the woman he in fact dated was just so sweet.

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Musouka, I agree with you.

I can't really say anything, because everything has been said, mostly by Musouka.

and , it's destiny :)

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I don't deny that Phoenix and Miles would probably be a good match, but as it stands in the games I just don't believe that Miles is incredibly responsive to Phoenix's feelings for him (however intense they may be). His isolationist behavior is at the forefront in JFA and T&T, which was probably necessary to prevent him from crowding out the rest of the cast. Even after his triumphant return in 2-4, he promptly disappeared again for another year to return on 3-5. Considering Miles' reserved personality, this doesn't seem like a good formula for a long distance relationship, even if he is granted a couple Big Damn Hero moments when Phoenix is in need.

Someone had quoted a line elsewhere that came up when presenting Franziska's profile to Miles in 3-5: "It'd make an interesting anecdote for my trip." Miles is planning to leave once the case is over, and on top of that he has other friends he can casually converse with... Or perhaps he was just speaking rhetorically.

Whoa, can you say Off-Topic?

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Taking my previous Ema/Klavier argument and turning it on its side, consider the scenario where Ema remains the bitchy single woman we've come to know and love (aside from the fact that she's not single and is involved in a relationship with Personality-of-a-Keyboard). It'd be awfully unfair to Klavier's character to be singled out for her tender side, indeed it would seem she'd be the one bullying him in some ways. Klavier has little enough development as it stands, and as much as I initially disliked his seemingly extraneous position in the AJ arc, I would hate to see him diminished. He's supposed to be glamorous and domineering, and him in a passive position just wouldn't compute.

The ideal situation would be for them to find a middle road, which just doesn't seem incredibly possible given a choice cruelty perpetrated in AJ. Ema's too far off to one side of the scale, and Klavier is on the other end, and bridging that gap would seriously water down their personalities.

Debate General's Warning: This post has no cred.

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I agree with Gregory on /:ayame:. Of course, if I were to say why I supported the pairing, I'd merely be copying his lines, and lines of other Feenris fans.

Also... what does 'schadenfreude' mean? I've heard the term numerous times, but never the meaning.

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"enjoyment obtained from the troubles of others"

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Oh, good. A place where I can air my grievances in a mature and respectful manner.

Why I don't like Apollo/Viola:
Now, normally I'd ship anyone/everyone. However, I really don't like Apollo/Viola. Yes, I am aware that it is a crack pairing, for fun, blah blah blah. Yeah. Wel I don't like it. I have long believed that Viola should have someone gentlemanly, someone who really cares about her, who could appear to be completely different from her, yet is the same, deep down. Apollo is none of these things. He's...a wimp. I don't mean a literal wimp, he's just....a beginner. A greenhorn. He's anything but gentlemanly. Sure, Apollo/Vi is cute and all, but I don't really believe they would be together. Those are my views.

Why I don't like Tigre/Viola:
I am aware that there are many, many Tigre/Viola shippers. I'm fine with that. Doesn't mean I like it, though. Sure, Viola said that she and Tigre were lovers, but she didn't really believe it. Tigre doesn't give a damn about Viola! By pretending that he did, he hurt Viola in innumerable ways. I think that incident would have really hurt Viola. I just don't think it's fair.

...Wow. It felt good to get that off my chest. Let the debate begin!

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I so freaking agree with you! Before I got the chance to play investigation no. 2 of 3-3, I thought Viola/Furio would grow on me. And it turns out, no way. Okay sure the fan art of the two is adorable, that's the only pro when I think of this pairing. But the pairing itself... is just...

I don't personally like Viola/Apollo either. In fact, none of the Apollo/anyone is appealing to me. Maybe one day I'll end up shipping him with something, maybe a crack pairing if none of the characters in GS4 are enough to convince me to pair them up with ol' Apollo. And I don't like to believe that Apollo's a whimp, maybe my opinion will change when I do get to play AJ (I didn't bothered to play the demo). I just think of Apollo as Phoenix from 1-1. :P

Anyhow...

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Aw, Doc, you shouldn't have. <3

You seem to be forgetting the one thing Viola requires most after her damaging relationship with Tigre in 3-3: sincerity.
Which is why after spending some time as a crackshipping, I've promoted Apollo/Viola to OTP status for myself. (One of Two Pairings, the other being Ema/Miles) Apollo is a dork, yes, but he's eager to please, believes in truth and justice, has a passionate heart burning red... he resembles a younger Phoenix in some ways, which is what drew me to want to pair him up with Viola, who would be in need of such an individual. When I considered that Viola is much older (by ten years), and probably more worldly wise and weary, the potential for dichotomy piqued my curiosity.

Actually, that's the real magic about Apollo Justice: You can pair him up with ANYONE.

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