Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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I mean, for most of Phoenix's cases, it wouldn't be a difference, but 2-4 was special. It was way too obvious that Engarde was guilty, so the Jurists would have made the guilty verdict much earlier.
So what's your opinion on this?
Or would any other case be different?
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Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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The only time they would be able to vote would be at the very end of the case and such; otherwise Adrian would be found guilty before it became obvious Matt was guilty.
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For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
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Blademaster_Orca wrote:
2-4 probably would've happened, but under different circumstances.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
Here's a problem with your explanation. The Jurist System has six people chosen secretly. In America, for example, if there's a jury they don't reveal anything about their identity.
Not to mention in 4-4 the jury wasn't even IN the courtroom. They were at an undisclosed location, watching the trial via live satellite. So really how could deKiller blackmail the jury if he doesn't even know where or for that matter WHO they are.
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WhiteElephant wrote:
Blademaster_Orca wrote:
2-4 probably would've happened, but under different circumstances.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
Here's a problem with your explanation. The Jurist System has six people chosen secretly. In America, for example, if there's a jury they don't reveal anything about their identity.
Not to mention in 4-4 the jury wasn't even IN the courtroom. They were at an undisclosed location, watching the trial via live satellite. So really how could deKiller blackmail the jury if he doesn't even know where or for that matter WHO they are.
Also, it would be hard for de Killer to find six things to take ransom for each of them, even if they weren't secret in the AA universe.
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Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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Felice wrote:
This is part of why I'm not happy about them introducing the jurist system in AJ. XD; It would've completely ruined cases like 2-4...
That's why they made 2-4 before they made the Jurist System :P
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So can 1-4 and 2-2.
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I'll still play GS5, of course, so I can judge for myself, but I can't say that this aspect is too appealing to me.
Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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Felice wrote:
I dunno, to me it just robs it of the excitement and suspense and could quite possibly make things too easy. I prefer having to think about how to connect everything and prove it with what I've got in the Court Record. Way I see it, either it will function like it did at the end of 4-4, with you choosing the verdict, and really, that DOES make it too easy. If it doesn't, and it functions exactly like it already does, only with a jury handing down a verdict instead of the judge... then what's the flipping point of the whole thing?
I'll still play GS5, of course, so I can judge for myself, but I can't say that this aspect is too appealing to me.
I'll still play GS5, of course, so I can judge for myself, but I can't say that this aspect is too appealing to me.
Choosing the verdict at the 4-4 was ONLY to find out about Jurist No.6. No other reason.
Besides, even if you do get to choose the verdict, it's not like you can just not try, completely mess up, and then pick a not guilty verdict. You do have to work, and get to the end like any other case to pick.
And about the Jurist System taking away the suspense...not at all. 3-5 was plenty suspenseful and it wasn't like 2-4. Besides, they wouldn't make another case just like 2-4...it would be boring, since 2-4 has already been done. Just because it won't be like 2-4 doesn't mean it won't be suspenseful.
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Oh, and it provides a great set-up to a tutorial case :D
(They have to explain the Jurist system, since it's new... hence a tutorial!)
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Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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but, it'll make the case less exciting isn't it?
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Felice wrote:
Yeah, but it also prevents any future cases from being as suspenseful and exciting as 2-4 was.
You said it. Remember it.
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Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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Godot-Fangirl wrote:
oh yeah, never thought about that.
but, it'll make the case less exciting isn't it?
but, it'll make the case less exciting isn't it?
The only way I think it'll make it less exciting is if they make GS5 super-easy for some reason like they did on the last day of trial on 4-4, where all you basically had to do was an easy percieve =\
Otherwise, it's going to be exactly the same as before. After all, you must win over every single Jurist to win (as shown in the bad ending of AJ).
And none of the arguments "Will [blank] prevent there being any cases like [case]?" It really doesn't matter if they added whatever the blank is, because they are not going to make a case like an old case, but it's already been done! They won't do another case like 2-4 not because of the Jurist System, but because 2-4 has already been done!
Besides, 2-4 is the only case that couldn't work with the Jurist System... are you all saying that 2-4 was the only suspenseful case?
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And after how Phoenix and Edgey made their secret mission doing it... it was portrayed a good thing, and it sure will be in AJ2.
My guess is that you won't be choosing the verdict in AJ2, but they could implement an interesting gameplay change where you basically have to convince the Jurists.
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DramaticaXIV2 wrote:
WhiteElephant wrote:
Blademaster_Orca wrote:
2-4 probably would've happened, but under different circumstances.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
Here's a problem with your explanation. The Jurist System has six people chosen secretly. In America, for example, if there's a jury they don't reveal anything about their identity.
Not to mention in 4-4 the jury wasn't even IN the courtroom. They were at an undisclosed location, watching the trial via live satellite. So really how could deKiller blackmail the jury if he doesn't even know where or for that matter WHO they are.
Also, it would be hard for de Killer to find six things to take ransom for each of them, even if they weren't secret in the AA universe.
Wait, why would he go after the jurors if he didn't go after the judge?
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It's easier to blackmail one judge than six jurors.
If you think about it, the kidnapping doesn't really make sense anyway. De Killer, being a professional assassin, must be very rich; corrupting the judge (especially this judge) would be a piece of cake. But there's a reason why the game is called Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney and not Judge Udgey: Great Judgini...
It's not about logic; it's about moral dilemma. The player has to make a decision.
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Also, who knows what could be done with a jury? You could have a juror be the killer. I know they're not supposed to have any relation to the victim, but there are ways to get around that, and it's not like the villain of 3-2 had any provable connection to the murder victim. You could have a killing amongst the jury, too.
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Ping' wrote:
Believe it or not, that's exactly what I was going to say ^^
It's easier to blackmail one judge than six jurors.
If you think about it, the kidnapping doesn't really make sense anyway. De Killer, being a professional assassin, must be very rich; corrupting the judge (especially this judge) would be a piece of cake. But there's a reason why the game is called Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney and not Judge Udgey: Great Judgini...
It's not about logic; it's about moral dilemma. The player has to make a decision.
It's easier to blackmail one judge than six jurors.
If you think about it, the kidnapping doesn't really make sense anyway. De Killer, being a professional assassin, must be very rich; corrupting the judge (especially this judge) would be a piece of cake. But there's a reason why the game is called Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney and not Judge Udgey: Great Judgini...
It's not about logic; it's about moral dilemma. The player has to make a decision.
In the jurist system the Judge has no power to make verdicts. So really deKiller blackmailing the Judge when there's a jury is overall pointless :P
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Blackmail wouldn't be necessary; De Killer's rich and Udgey, easy to corrupt. A couple of dirty tricks and Engarde would have been found innocent.
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Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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Felice wrote:
Yeah, but it also prevents any future cases from being as suspenseful and exciting as 2-4 was.
I really do have to beg to differ with this general feeling. There are many ways to shake things up even with a jury. Maybe not in the very same way that has been done before, but exciting nonetheless.
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Ping' wrote:
I'm talking about 2-4, not hypothetical-2-4-with-a-jurist-system.
Blackmail wouldn't be necessary; De Killer's rich and Udgey, easy to corrupt. A couple of dirty tricks and Engarde would have been found innocent.
Blackmail wouldn't be necessary; De Killer's rich and Udgey, easy to corrupt. A couple of dirty tricks and Engarde would have been found innocent.
Okay, so let's have a certain scenario in place then:
Maya is not kidnapped, but Phoenix takes the case anyway (maybe he was asked by Will, since him and Matt worked together). Franziska, who deKiller has no reason to shoot now, is the prosecution. Now Franziska has more than enough evidence to put on Engarde, has Adrian, her pocket witness and testifier, and proves that deKiller did the killing (this is goes from when either Miles or Franziska discover the card).
Fact is with as much evidence as there was against Matt if the Judge let him go free then not only would Adrian most likely go free (fact is there isn't real evidence that Adrian did the murder) but the Judge would probably be put under some form of investigation for negligence in court (more than usual too). Not to mention, although he won't go to prison, there would most likely be no way Matt would ever perform in his industry again. You don't recover from having so much evidence against you in a murder trial and getting off innocent (look at OJ Simpson and you'll see what I mean).
Besides, the whole point of 2-4 was that it wasn't just about getting a not guilty. It was also about saving Maya's life and, showing that regardless of whether he was a killer or not, that everyone deserved a fair trial. Blackmailing the Judge would defeat that purpose. Plus what exactly would deKiller blackmail the Judge with? Being easily corrupted is one thing but the public lives of most legitimate Judges aren't disclosed easily.
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Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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WhiteElephant wrote:
In the jurist system the Judge has no power to make verdicts.
In the US Legal System at least, the judge can override a jury's verdict. Not sure about other places or the game, tho
WhiteElephant wrote:
Okay, so let's have a certain scenario in place then:
Maya is not kidnapped, but Phoenix takes the case anyway (maybe he was asked by Will, since him and Matt worked together). Franziska, who deKiller has no reason to shoot now, is the prosecution. Now Franziska has more than enough evidence to put on Engarde, has Adrian, her pocket witness and testifier, and proves that deKiller did the killing (this is goes from when either Miles or Franziska discover the card).
Fact is with as much evidence as there was against Matt if the Judge let him go free then not only would Adrian most likely go free (fact is there isn't real evidence that Adrian did the murder)
Maya is not kidnapped, but Phoenix takes the case anyway (maybe he was asked by Will, since him and Matt worked together). Franziska, who deKiller has no reason to shoot now, is the prosecution. Now Franziska has more than enough evidence to put on Engarde, has Adrian, her pocket witness and testifier, and proves that deKiller did the killing (this is goes from when either Miles or Franziska discover the card).
Fact is with as much evidence as there was against Matt if the Judge let him go free then not only would Adrian most likely go free (fact is there isn't real evidence that Adrian did the murder)
Not really. As soon as they find out that De Killer did the killing, the knife and bloody button go down the drain as evidence that Matt did it. So, who could've framed Matt? Was it Matt himself? Obviously not. Was it Adrian Andrews? There's a possibility. Was it De Killer? Only if he is not Matt's client (because then it's basically the same thing as Matt doing it).
Although that doesn't narrow it down to Adrian, that does kind of prove that Matt didn't do it, and Phoenix would pin the guilt of Adrian.
Plus, Phoenix would be fighting with his usually fire to get his defendant aquitted, since without Maya being kidnapped they never find evil!Matt.
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Bad Player wrote:
WhiteElephant wrote:
In the jurist system the Judge has no power to make verdicts.
In the US Legal System at least, the judge can override a jury's verdict. Not sure about other places or the game, tho
WhiteElephant wrote:
Okay, so let's have a certain scenario in place then:
Maya is not kidnapped, but Phoenix takes the case anyway (maybe he was asked by Will, since him and Matt worked together). Franziska, who deKiller has no reason to shoot now, is the prosecution. Now Franziska has more than enough evidence to put on Engarde, has Adrian, her pocket witness and testifier, and proves that deKiller did the killing (this is goes from when either Miles or Franziska discover the card).
Fact is with as much evidence as there was against Matt if the Judge let him go free then not only would Adrian most likely go free (fact is there isn't real evidence that Adrian did the murder)
Maya is not kidnapped, but Phoenix takes the case anyway (maybe he was asked by Will, since him and Matt worked together). Franziska, who deKiller has no reason to shoot now, is the prosecution. Now Franziska has more than enough evidence to put on Engarde, has Adrian, her pocket witness and testifier, and proves that deKiller did the killing (this is goes from when either Miles or Franziska discover the card).
Fact is with as much evidence as there was against Matt if the Judge let him go free then not only would Adrian most likely go free (fact is there isn't real evidence that Adrian did the murder)
Not really. As soon as they find out that De Killer did the killing, the knife and bloody button go down the drain as evidence that Matt did it. So, who could've framed Matt? Was it Matt himself? Obviously not. Was it Adrian Andrews? There's a possibility. Was it De Killer? Only if he is not Matt's client (because then it's basically the same thing as Matt doing it).
Although that doesn't narrow it down to Adrian, that does kind of prove that Matt didn't do it, and Phoenix would pin the guilt of Adrian.
Plus, Phoenix would be fighting with his usually fire to get his defendant aquitted, since without Maya being kidnapped they never find evil!Matt.
You can't be sure that evil!Matt discussions won't arise. Adrian talks a lot about how Matt is evil. Not to mention after giving the real truthful testimony in 2-4 even Phoenix begins to doubt that Adrian is lying, which eventually leads him to actually wonder if Matt did do it.
Fact is in 2-4 Phoenix had a multitude of opportunities to pin the blame on Adrian. Especially when deKiller claimed Adrian was the client. Yet he didn't do it.
Personally I would like to think the Judge isn't as corruptible as everyone thinks he is. He always makes the right decisions at the end. Plus deKiller wouldn't have enough time to blackmail the Judge. There are hundreds of Judges in California, and deKiller couldn't really know which Judge would be going under Matt's case (we knew which Judge, but would he?).
DeKiller kidnapped Maya because he saw her with Phoenix, who he knew was a successful lawyer. He didn't have any time at all to find out what Judge would be doing Matt's case, because if he didn't get Matt a lawyer he knew would get Matt innocent then the state would appoint one for Matt. That lawyer wouldn't stand a chance against perfect prosecutors like Franziska or Miles, because only Phoenix ever defeated both of them.
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WhiteElephant wrote:
Personally I would like to think the Judge isn't as corruptible as everyone thinks he is. He always makes the right decisions at the end. Plus deKiller wouldn't have enough time to blackmail the Judge. There are hundreds of Judges in California, and deKiller couldn't really know which Judge would be going under Matt's case (we knew which Judge, but would he?).
DeKiller kidnapped Maya because he saw her with Phoenix, who he knew was a successful lawyer. He didn't have any time at all to find out what Judge would be doing Matt's case, because if he didn't get Matt a lawyer he knew would get Matt innocent then the state would appoint one for Matt. That lawyer wouldn't stand a chance against perfect prosecutors like Franziska or Miles, because only Phoenix ever defeated both of them.
I don't think the judge is corruptible... But I think De Killer could have blackmailed him. I don't think phoenix is corruptible either.
As for Phoenix vs. Ultra Prosecutor... Well, as pointed out above, Phoenix had managed to beat them both in court every time. Prompting the judge to overrule the prosecutions arguments later in game would be pretty easy if De Killer held someone (like the judge's grandson) hostage.
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Blademaster_Orca wrote:
2-4 probably would've happened, but under different circumstances.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
So why didn't De Killer blackmail the Judge in 2-4?
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Or cause he secretly enjoys watching Phoenix defend and is a major fan.
Hey it could happen
. That explains why he believed phoenix right away about the blackmail!All the contradictions disappear
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WhiteElephant wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
WhiteElephant wrote:
In the jurist system the Judge has no power to make verdicts.
In the US Legal System at least, the judge can override a jury's verdict. Not sure about other places or the game, tho
WhiteElephant wrote:
Okay, so let's have a certain scenario in place then:
Maya is not kidnapped, but Phoenix takes the case anyway (maybe he was asked by Will, since him and Matt worked together). Franziska, who deKiller has no reason to shoot now, is the prosecution. Now Franziska has more than enough evidence to put on Engarde, has Adrian, her pocket witness and testifier, and proves that deKiller did the killing (this is goes from when either Miles or Franziska discover the card).
Fact is with as much evidence as there was against Matt if the Judge let him go free then not only would Adrian most likely go free (fact is there isn't real evidence that Adrian did the murder)
Maya is not kidnapped, but Phoenix takes the case anyway (maybe he was asked by Will, since him and Matt worked together). Franziska, who deKiller has no reason to shoot now, is the prosecution. Now Franziska has more than enough evidence to put on Engarde, has Adrian, her pocket witness and testifier, and proves that deKiller did the killing (this is goes from when either Miles or Franziska discover the card).
Fact is with as much evidence as there was against Matt if the Judge let him go free then not only would Adrian most likely go free (fact is there isn't real evidence that Adrian did the murder)
Not really. As soon as they find out that De Killer did the killing, the knife and bloody button go down the drain as evidence that Matt did it. So, who could've framed Matt? Was it Matt himself? Obviously not. Was it Adrian Andrews? There's a possibility. Was it De Killer? Only if he is not Matt's client (because then it's basically the same thing as Matt doing it).
Although that doesn't narrow it down to Adrian, that does kind of prove that Matt didn't do it, and Phoenix would pin the guilt of Adrian.
Plus, Phoenix would be fighting with his usually fire to get his defendant aquitted, since without Maya being kidnapped they never find evil!Matt.
You can't be sure that evil!Matt discussions won't arise. Adrian talks a lot about how Matt is evil. Not to mention after giving the real truthful testimony in 2-4 even Phoenix begins to doubt that Adrian is lying, which eventually leads him to actually wonder if Matt did do it.
Fact is in 2-4 Phoenix had a multitude of opportunities to pin the blame on Adrian. Especially when deKiller claimed Adrian was the client. Yet he didn't do it.
The problem is that Adrian would never give the "real truthful testimony in 2-4" is Maya isn't kidnapped. If Maya isn't kidnapped then Franziska prosecutes, and Franziska is the one who told Adrian not to give that testimony in the first place.
Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!
Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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Superninfreak wrote:
Blademaster_Orca wrote:
2-4 probably would've happened, but under different circumstances.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
For example, de Killer could just blackmail members of the jury instead of Phoenix. Why bother going after the attorney when it would be simpler to manipulate the people actually making the decision?
It probably would've been harder to stall the trial, as well. The judge may be easily swayed, but it's not all that easy to change the minds of six people by stalling over a period of two days.
So why didn't De Killer blackmail the Judge in 2-4?
Quote:
DeKiller kidnapped Maya because he saw her with Phoenix, who he knew was a successful lawyer. He didn't have any time at all to find out what Judge would be doing Matt's case, because if he didn't get Matt a lawyer he knew would get Matt innocent then the state would appoint one for Matt. That lawyer wouldn't stand a chance against perfect prosecutors like Franziska or Miles, because only Phoenix ever defeated both of them.
He didn't know exactly what Judge was going to be Matt's Judge. There's more than one obviously, as shown in 3-4 and 3-5, so unless deKiller is a mind reader then he couldn't guess which judge to blackmail. Not to mention we pretty much don't know anything about the Judge at all at 2-4. Hell he gives us his card and you can't even read it because the writing is so illegible. Plus what would deKiller blackmail the Judge with, if he didn't know anything about the Judge either.
With Phoenix, as I stated above in the quote, there's Maya who he knows hangs around with Phoenix. Plus if the Judge goes to the police about it then they would be able to find deKiller (Phoenix did this too when he went to Gumshoe and Edgeworth, and deKiller didn't figure it out until very late in the case)
Re: Jurist system vs Farewell, My Turnabout (spoilers)
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the judge to decide when the trial's over and when the jurtists actually can
Get to handing down their verdict.
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