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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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nevertalk wrote:
So I beat PLvsAA and

Spoiler: HUGE SPOILERS DON'T READ
That whole scene after Maya's supposed death was really impactful. We've never seen Phoenix legitimately pissed off before but there he was right up in Barnham's face, fist raised, demanding he do whatever it took to bring Maya back, up to and including illegal witchcraft.


Spoiler:
Is the acting (Phoenix) better in the USA version?
Then again I should probably check Youtube myself but you know, hours of looking for a scene...

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icer wrote:
Spoiler:
Is the acting (Phoenix) better in the USA version?
Then again I should probably check Youtube myself but you know, hours of looking for a scene...


As far as I can tell, literally nothing was changed between the European version and the American version. Even all the British spellings are the same. I have no idea why it took so long to reach our shores.
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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icer wrote:
Well, P/M Day is coming up soon...
:kissy:

Thanks for the reminder!
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Gammalad wrote:
icer wrote:
Well, P/M Day is coming up soon...
:kissy:

Thanks for the reminder!


Yeah, in fact it's on tomorrow here...
Phoenix/Maya Day is September 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*excitement*

Because that's the day they first met, remember...
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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nevertalk wrote:
So I beat PLvsAA and

Spoiler: HUGE SPOILERS DON'T READ
That whole scene after Maya's supposed death was really impactful. We've never seen Phoenix legitimately pissed off before but there he was right up in Barnham's face, fist raised, demanding he do whatever it took to bring Maya back, up to and including illegal witchcraft.


Spoiler: more spoilage
The scene/conversation with the bar lady was surprisingly good as well. You could feel the guy was torn up inside and unsure of even the one thing he was trying to be sure of -- trying to keep it together for Espella and Luke.

"Descole? You don't mean Mr. I-Like-to-Wreck-Things-with-Mechanical-Monsters-and-Dress-Up-as-Posh-Ladies Descole?" -Emmy Altava

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...NAILED IT
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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I'm gonna do a mini one or two page comic called reunion. Where it shows the dialogue of PL VS PW when Phoenix and Maya meet again after the "incident" only showing how I imagine their faces looked. And of course a hug or two.
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Can you also include the Layton and Luke side somewhere, namely his remark: "Luke! What are you doing here?"
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Can you also include the Layton and Luke side somewhere, namely his remark: "Luke! What are you doing here?"

Sure! :) I loved Layton in that game! (Though I've only ever played a curious village...I need to try some of his other games I hear they get WAY better as they go on.)
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
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(Uh... :ron: I don't really know if this is how you guys do things around here but anyhoo...)

HAPPY NARUMAYO DAY, YOU GUYS!! :lisa-hands:

*Tentative wave* Got … got room for a new recruit joining the shipping ranks? :pearl-blush:
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title

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So for Nick and Maya Day this year I took a scene from PLvsAA, drug it out too long, and made it awful:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10671611/1 ... of-Despair

If you need a pick-me-up after that, then remember that everything that happens in the book HAPPENS FOR REAL:
Spoiler:
Image
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nevertalk wrote:
If you need a pick-me-up after that, then remember that everything that happens in the book HAPPENS FOR REAL:
Spoiler:
Image

Dammit, now I hear George Takei in the background.
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.

AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
nevertalk wrote:
If you need a pick-me-up after that, then remember that everything that happens in the book HAPPENS FOR REAL:
Spoiler:
Image

Dammit, now I hear George Takei in the background.


Oh myyyyyy!
"Descole? You don't mean Mr. I-Like-to-Wreck-Things-with-Mechanical-Monsters-and-Dress-Up-as-Posh-Ladies Descole?" -Emmy Altava

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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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nevertalk wrote:
If you need a pick-me-up after that, then remember that everything that happens in the book HAPPENS FOR REAL:
Spoiler:
Image

LOL that is halarious!!! XD My contribution is almost done! You might need to wait a few more hours but it SHALL BE DONE!
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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nevertalk wrote:
If you need a pick-me-up after that, then remember that everything that happens in the book HAPPENS FOR REAL:
Spoiler:
Image


This deserves some kind of award. :butzthumbs:

Happy P/M Day everybody! (Though it was yesterday here..)

LateSummer wrote:
*Tentative wave* Got … got room for a new recruit joining the shipping ranks? :pearl-blush:

Welcome to the club, another joyous day for humanity... *showers confetti*
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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I'm kinda upset now cause I spent all day on my mini comic, Only to have it come out faded as hell after being scanned. So now I have to darken the lines in paint. >:( It's now 5:00 in the morning, I'll get it done tomorrow. Sorry. :(
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
I'm kinda upset now cause I spent all day on my mini comic, Only to have it come out faded as hell after being scanned. So now I have to darken the lines in paint. >:( It's now 5:00 in the morning, I'll get it done tomorrow. Sorry. :(


Looking forward to it.
Never mind, it's also P/M Week because these kind of things shouldn't have to be confined to one day. :kissy:

Well this isn't actually P/M but they give us some interesting, not-quite-canon info (could be useful for fanfics etc.):
http://www.capcom-unity.com/zeroobjecti ... al-edition
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title

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icer wrote:
LateSummer wrote:
*Tentative wave* Got … got room for a new recruit joining the shipping ranks? :pearl-blush:

Welcome to the club, another joyous day for humanity... *showers confetti*
Image


Eek!! :DD Thank you so much for the welcome!!! :edgey:

nevertalk wrote:

If you need a pick-me-up after that, then remember that everything that happens in the book HAPPENS FOR REAL:
Spoiler:
Image


You sir, are amazing xDDD
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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icer wrote:
Well this isn't actually P/M but they give us some interesting, not-quite-canon info (could be useful for fanfics etc.):
http://www.capcom-unity.com/zeroobjecti ... al-edition


I should add that one thing I found interesting in that was this talk about the Kurain 'elders' I always thought they were just some kind of fanon. But maybe Janet Hsu has just read fanfics?
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title

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I choose to believe she writes them in her free time.
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You know, it's not like she wrote this blog entry rather than just translate and localize it...
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Nearavex wrote:
You know, it's not like she wrote this blog entry rather than just translate and localize it...


Hmm, that's possible. It doesn't seem to say that entry is a translation of the JP blog (etc), but that doesn't mean it isn't. (although it's generic enough they could come up with it themselves.)

But still, she would also 'localise' it which always brings some changes in this series.

Anyway this is the first I've heard of these mysterious Elders in any 'official' material as far as I can recall, even if such a village would likely have them. I remember on this club a zillion years ago there was some kind of discussion about the origin of these Elders in practically every P/M fanfic, (who are usually antagonistic to P/M hmm) and we came to the conclusion it was fanon invented waaay back during the first P/M fanfics.

Also 'confirms' Maya thinks much of her spirit training is 'as painfully boring as watching mould grow on a bed of rusty nails'.
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:D
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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icer wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
You know, it's not like she wrote this blog entry rather than just translate and localize it...


Hmm, that's possible. It doesn't seem to say that entry is a translation of the JP blog (etc), but that doesn't mean it isn't. (although it's generic enough they could come up with it themselves.)

But still, she would also 'localise' it which always brings some changes in this series.

Anyway this is the first I've heard of these mysterious Elders in any 'official' material as far as I can recall, even if such a village would likely have them. I remember on this club a zillion years ago there was some kind of discussion about the origin of these Elders in practically every P/M fanfic, (who are usually antagonistic to P/M hmm) and we came to the conclusion it was fanon invented waaay back during the first P/M fanfics.

Also 'confirms' Maya thinks much of her spirit training is 'as painfully boring as watching mould grow on a bed of rusty nails'.



Why would they be antagonistic against her being in love? If anything they would probably push her to marry and carry on her bloodline. As far as I can tell the only thing keeping this from happening is exactly what the problem is with most Fey relationships. The women are too busy and disconnected. But I don't see Phoenix minding so much...I think she'd be happier if Pearl was master. I know I shouldn't say that but it seems like she's more interested in becoming useful to Phoenix than becoming master. So if all she needs to do is train then she should go to Kurain two or three times a week train and come back. But I assume she wants to become a master before she returns so she can be most useful.
"Follow Your heart out of the darkness! Stand up and rise from the ashes! Back to the start, far from the madness. Come alive again! Break off the chains of hesitation! Your voice will be your salvation! Look to the light of liberation waiting at the end!"
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
Why would they be antagonistic against her being in love? If anything they would probably push her to marry and carry on her bloodline.

I guess it's so there's a fanfic plot.... it's fanon, after all. We need a reason why they're not together after GS3 :( There is some basis though, in GS2 and GS3 it shows that Morgan but also Kurain (or the spirit medium world) in general don't think much of Phoenix. In one of the cases in GS3 one of the characters says they read 'Oh! Cult' and it said Maya had been receiving some 'shady training' with Phoenix, which isn't really thinking much of him. Oh, and all the men leave.

Quote:
I think she'd be happier if Pearl was master. I know I shouldn't say that but it seems like she's more interested in becoming useful to Phoenix than becoming master. So if all she needs to do is train then she should go to Kurain two or three times a week train and come back.


That'a a complex issue. Maya certainly thought during the games that Pearl 'should' be Master, and really seemed a lot happier being with Phoenix in the city instead, but we don't know how much of this is a consequence of her upbringing by Morgan and the self-doubt it would have caused (not to mention all the times Morgan tried to murder her etc.). So given the end of Game 3 it's kind of letting Morgan win after all if she still 'should' let Pearl be Master. That's why the end of 3-5 is the 'good ending', because it said she could be Master AND continue being Phoenix's assistant, and this was canon, so in effect, it's proven as possible.

And of course you see people who aren't Maya fans claiming she's 'irresponsible' hanging around with Phoenix rather than training at Kurain or something during the games... but why is Kurain her 'responsibility' anyway? It's not like Maya chose to be the next Master. Mia just abdicated and left for the city, thus forcing the future position on Maya, and nobody thought Mia was 'irresponsible'.

If being Master actually means being stuck in Kurain 'Training' for the rest of her life (or 'years on end') though, that's a very different ending to what was canon in 3-5. Why on Earth would generations of Feys actually murder each other over such a terrible position though? So I don't believe that's what it was believed to entail during GS1-3's writing.

Quote:
But I assume she wants to become a master before she returns so she can be most useful.

Spoiler: GS5
Probably, but that's part of why GS5 is irritating. It implies her character regressed to being the same as her character in 1-4, BEFORE Phoenix shows her the evidence she was useful even without channelling. Come on, no character regresses that much without explanation! It's better than pretending she doesn't exist, but it's still completely lazy.
In effect in that scene Phoenix says she's not just a channelling game mechanic, but I fear the GS5 writers don't think the same way....
Besides, if she's a game mechanic, why can't they just decide she also has a new, different spiritual power now?
Well, we can hold out hope for GS6... assuming it gets made eventually. I'm not sure it was ever confirmed. I think the GS5 writers semi-confirmed wanting to do GK3, and there's Takumi's actual new GS, which I think makes 'GS6' less likely? :larry:

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How exactly Maya's character "regressed" in GS5? There wasn't anything in that letter that would suggest that.
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Nearavex wrote:
How exactly Maya's character "regressed" in GS5? There wasn't anything in that letter that would suggest that.


I think just the fact that she's still training eight years later. In the original trilogy, the Master position is touted as having strong political ties and suggested to carry a lot of power beyond even that of Kurain. By this point Maya should have her finger in a lot of pies and no longer be the underdeveloped medium shying away from her duties she was as a teenager.

I don't think the letter itself was worded in a way a 28-year-old Maya wouldn't act (outside of being signed as "Maya Fey" instead of just "Maya") but having her absence explained as just "training" instead of sensitive Kurain matters or something. I want to see an older Maya still be youthful and energetic but with this air of confidence and maturity from years of being Master of the Kurain Channeling Technique, sort of like how Phoenix in DD is the dad of the office without losing the sarcasm and general doofiness that made him so lovable originally. Our kids have grown up.
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nevertalk wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
How exactly Maya's character "regressed" in GS5? There wasn't anything in that letter that would suggest that.


I think just the fact that she's still training eight years later. In the original trilogy, the Master position is touted as having strong political ties and suggested to carry a lot of power beyond even that of Kurain. By this point Maya should have her finger in a lot of pies and no longer be the underdeveloped medium shying away from her duties she was as a teenager.

I don't think the letter itself was worded in a way a 28-year-old Maya wouldn't act (outside of being signed as "Maya Fey" instead of just "Maya") but having her absence explained as just "training" instead of sensitive Kurain matters or something. I want to see an older Maya still be youthful and energetic but with this air of confidence and maturity from years of being Master of the Kurain Channeling Technique, sort of like how Phoenix in DD is the dad of the office without losing the sarcasm and general doofiness that made him so lovable originally. Our kids have grown up.


I did like your version of Older!Maya in Turnabout Catalyst, nevertalk. She was mature enough to be a mom for Trucy, but hadn't lost her sense of humor or easygoing nature. Also, there's a artist on pixiv that does a very good rendition of Older!Maya. Instead of envisioning her as some sort of supermodel Mia Fey clone, the artist drew her as a small, but cheerful and mature woman.

Image
http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php? ... d=36515047

BTW, I know I don't post here very often, but I just finished a short little Phoenix/Maya fic that I've been wanting to do for some time. It's my first Phoenix Wright story, and it takes place at a marathon dance. It includes some of my artwork, and I welcome anyone to come take a look and see what you think. Enjoy!

They Shoot Phoenixes, Don't They?: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10714826/1/They-Shoot-Phoenixes-Don-t-They
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nevertalk wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
How exactly Maya's character "regressed" in GS5? There wasn't anything in that letter that would suggest that.


I think just the fact that she's still training eight years later. In the original trilogy, the Master position is touted as having strong political ties and suggested to carry a lot of power beyond even that of Kurain. By this point Maya should have her finger in a lot of pies and no longer be the underdeveloped medium shying away from her duties she was as a teenager.


That, but also, for this tiny 'cameo', it's like they take their idea of 'What Would Maya Do' from GS1, not even GS3 or let alone what she'd be like by this time. By this I mean,
Spoiler: GS5, do we still spoiler GS5?
what is Maya like in GS1? She doesn't train, loses her powers, and decides she's too much of a shame to face Phoenix hence her attempt to leave for Kurain and not come back, ever. Then after the 'train station scene', she still leaves for Kurain to train for months, but this is BECAUSE she wants to become a full fledged medium to be able to COME BACK AND HELP HIM. By 2-2 Maya IS a full-fledged medium.

Retrospectively, they just decide this is classic Maya behaviour or something, this precedent of 'why she might not be there', she has to decide periodically she has to not see him for months while she trains at Kurain. But the reasons behind this period between GS1 and GS2 don't apply any more, or they shouldn't anyway. Maya did that A) because she felt she wasn't powerful enough to help him and wasn't worthy of facing him, her own insecurity B) she was a trainee at the time, before becoming an actual medium in 2-2. Lacking imagination, apparently they just shove this 'reason' back in GS5 because that's the only other time she wasn't around and it was canonically explained.

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You just brought the reason why AJ made so little sense - Maya wasn't there, even for the flashback trial.

Still, I don't see it - maybe she did want to become a medium to help Phoenix, but do keep in mind that:

Phoenix no longer needs help, which was quite a big point of 3-5
Maya has her own responsibilities ahead of her, being a Master of Kurain
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Nearavex wrote:
Phoenix no longer needs help, which was quite a big point of 3-5


Apparently he does if the first trial he has alone is the one where he's suckered into presenting forged evidence. :ron:
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I try to forget these parts of AJ.

Still, by DD that isn't really the case, quite obviously. Given that, you could say that DD is better sequel to T&T than AJ was, since despite the gap it picks up right where T&T left - with Phoenix as independant, experienced lawyer. :-P

Which gives us all the more reason to complain about the lack of a new Objection track for Phoenix

Where is my Objection 2001-2004 medley.

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Nearavex wrote:
You just brought the reason why AJ made so little sense - Maya wasn't there, even for the flashback trial.

Still, I don't see it - maybe she did want to become a medium to help Phoenix, but do keep in mind that:

Phoenix no longer needs help, which was quite a big point of 3-5
Maya has her own responsibilities ahead of her, being a Master of Kurain


Then Maya would have left at the end of 3-5, instead of saying in the credits she'd continue being Assistant General Manager of Wright and Co. Law Offices. It's Mia who 'left', not Maya. This isn't speculation, this is how the canon was explicitly written.
The point in 3-5 was he no longer need Mia's help aka his mentor. (Aside from the Flashback trial retrospectively 'proving' otherwise...) He clearly still gets assistance from Magical girls.
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Well, I brought that point solely to counter the "Maya was training only in order to help Nick" claim.
While she doesn't leave, Phoenix no longer needs Maya's spirit channeling.
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I think Maya in general has just become too indispensable to Phoenix and as a character. Even if Phoenix doesn't need her spirit channeling abilities, he needs her as a foil and as a ally, a role that none of the "partner characters" have been able to duplicate. Just like how fans reportedly want Phoenix as the star again after AJ, people ask questions when Maya is not present or not with Phoenix. In a real sense, Phoenix and Maya ARE Ace Attorney, and it becomes difficult to have one character without the other.

Phoenix and Maya remind me a lot of Daniel and Betty from Ugly Betty. The setup is pretty much the same; awkward guy in a suit with mousy, helpful assistant. The producer Silvio Horta thought that Daniel and Betty had more of a brother/sister thing going on, so they shied away from it by giving them other romantic interests. The problem was that kind of "Girl Friday" setup is oftentimes intrinsically romantic, so pairing their off with designated love interests eventually ended up derailing their relationship, as those love interests were doing things Daniel and Berry could be doing for each other. Taking away the "will they, won't they" and replacing it with "won't they" ended up giving Daniel and Betty less to do, and they started to have trouble carrying the plot. Eventually, Horta decided to allow some romantic development to take place between Daniel and Betty, and the plot immediately fell back into place.

The point I'm trying to make is that storytelling tropes and character relationships can take a life of their own, and it's sometimes better as a creator to just run with it rather than try and fight it. Whether by accident or design, Phoenix and Maya resemble what would otherwise be considered the "main couple" of a story, and as time goes on, it becomes harder and harder to imagine them with anyone else.

Quick Question: What does everyone here think of Iris and her role as Phoenix's love interest?
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Most of my Iris character analysis can be found here. Definitely not a relationship essay, but it might show some of it from Iris's part.

Basically, especially after PLvsAA, I'm a very conflicted Phoenix x Maya and Phoenix x Iris shipper.
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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RisanF wrote:
Quick Question: What does everyone here think of Iris and her role as Phoenix's love interest?


Future P/I is not canon implied.

My argument to support that is about a million words long.... I won't bore you all to tears again

Spoiler: shorter answer
But ummmm... how many other clients GO TO JAIL? None except in the later-written 1-5. That's hardly a Happy Fairytale Sunset Ending. It's more irony. The Happy Sunset Ending is with Maya and Phoenix's other friends in the 'ending picture' (which doesn't include Iris). Remember 3-5 originally was supposed to be the end for Phoenix and cast.

Basically 'Dollie' (which consists of Phoenix's delusion, Dahlia and Iris) is like a final boss. Phoenix didn't know Iris, he knew an imaginary delusion he was supposedly in love with called 'Dollie'. Iris did the worst thing to hurt Phoenix, who has a kind of abandonment complex (he mopes when Maya leaves in 1-5, he feels totally betrayed by Edgeworth leaving before 2-4...), abandoning him at trial to be convicted of murder. Come on, that's one huge betrayal. And she never sends him a letter or anything, and if Iris knew Phoenix, she'd know one of his other core character traits is being obsessed with the truth. We can FORGIVE Iris, but should they really be together? Does Phoenix understand Iris EITHER? No, he didn't listen to a word she said for months on end asking for the bottle back, stupified by the bottle fairytale told to him by Dahlia not Iris! Does he respect the kind of 'sacrifices' she makes in 3-5 (taking the fall for the murder and concealing the truth Phoenix is so obsessed about) or her continual loyalty to Dahlia over him, EVEN IN 3-5? I repeat, Iris is NOT Dollie, Phoenix was in love with a kind of fantasy and had zero respect for Iris herself.

And in the most beautiful story of irony, in 3-5 we get both the inversion of 3-1 and 3-4 and what might be read as the counterpart to the 'card scene' in 2-4. We all know Phoenix never gets the card. Well, 3-5 implies he doesn't need it. Phoenix didn't need a 'picture' to recognise Maya in 3-5, just his belief she didn't betray his trust by committing murder or abandoning him in court , because Maya doesn't keep the same visual form :will:

copy-pasted from a past post:
The point is the symbolism of the writing. The game plot gives us another graphic demonstration Phoenix's belief in Maya won't be betrayed. (Which had a zillion times more impact than some dumb awkward scene where someone gets a card and they blush stammer and deny idiotically in a superficial manner.) The relationship might not be 'proven' 'romantic' but at least it's proven REAL, in direct contrast to certain other incidents of Phoenix's betrayal which were constructed (since GS2) as direct contrast.

Shippers don't need a cheesy confession scene that looks as fake as 'Dollie'. Maya's already given Phoenix the Magatama as a 'bond of trust' in 2-2 anyway, the analogue to the lying 'Poison Bottle 'love token' that accompanies Feenie's delusion. If Iris had turned up to court in 3-1 maybe Feenie would have recognised her over Dahlia. But she abandons him instead. The irony (these games are filled with it) is deliberate.
Takumi is a genius.

And then Iris abandons him in court again by agreeing to switch places with Dahlia again in 3-5, so Dahlia comes to trial, just like in 3-1. Yet again her loyalty to Dahlia ultimately overrides any dedication to Feenie. Pretty good Phoenix can believe it's 'impossible' Maya betrayed him by murdering and jumping off the bridge, you know like in 3-4 and Terry's misguided belief in his 'girlfriend'?

Except the belief is not unrequited this time, hence the critical reversal/turnabout of the trial. And Maya is indeed in the court, unlike 3-1.
That might be 'luck' on Maya's part, but it's really effected by Iris betraying Feenie's trust yet again, so it's basically justice/'karma'. Because Maya didn't betray him, not even in 2-4 when she was willing to demote her own interests of rescue/survival, as she does over and over in the series.

Now I think the Iris hate where she's said to be a 'Mary Sue' is incorrect. She has deep character flaws, but some dedication to her own 'ideals'. 'Unfortunately' they are ones completely incompatible with Phoenix's and her loyalty to them (and Dahlia) overrides her loyalty to Phoenix in general. The entire Dollie saga seemed to be a kind of nightmare backwards analogue to both Maya and Edgeworth.


Now I'm not saying P/M is canon as in Romantic P/M is canon, but the FRIENDSHIP is canon, and proven to survive all kinds of tests of their trust and belief in each other, kind of like the end of 3-5 is saying Phoenix doesn't NEED some fantasy Dollie since he has real friends he can actually rely on and believe in like Maya and Edgeworth. Now if P/I shippers read that and get mad, well it's not like everyone doesn't have the right as fans to pair up whoever if they want to imagine it, but the game writers themselves really don't seem to be implying future P/I was at all likely. If Maya and Edgeworth are Phoenix's 'Partners' (yes that can be platonic, and probably is as far as the writers are concerned) that complement him and allow him to uncover the truth and he can trust and believe in, then 'Dollie' is the UnPartner, and 'Dollie' is that whole conceptual mess that included Dahlia, Iris and Feenie's delusions. And much like the Magatama given by Maya allows Phoenix to see the truth and uncover lies, Dollie's Bottle hides the truth (of Dahlia's past murder/poisoning of Diego) and turns Feenie into a delusional idiot -a spell Iris is unable to break.
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title

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icer wrote:
RisanF wrote:
Quick Question: What does everyone here think of Iris and her role as Phoenix's love interest?


Future P/I is not canon implied.

My argument to support that is about a million words long.... I won't bore you all to tears again

Spoiler: shorter answer
But ummmm... how many other clients GO TO JAIL? None except in the later-written 1-5. That's hardly a Happy Fairytale Sunset Ending. It's more irony. The Happy Sunset Ending is with Maya and Phoenix's other friends in the 'ending picture' (which doesn't include Iris). Remember 3-5 originally was supposed to be the end for Phoenix and cast.

Basically 'Dollie' (which consists of Phoenix's delusion, Dahlia and Iris) is like a final boss. Phoenix didn't know Iris, he knew an imaginary delusion he was supposedly in love with called 'Dollie'. Iris did the worst thing to hurt Phoenix, who has a kind of abandonment complex (he mopes when Maya leaves in 1-5, he feels totally betrayed by Edgeworth leaving before 2-4...), abandoning him at trial to be convicted of murder. Come on, that's one huge betrayal. And she never sends him a letter or anything, and if Iris knew Phoenix, she'd know one of his other core character traits is being obsessed with the truth. We can FORGIVE Iris, but should they really be together? Does Phoenix understand Iris EITHER? No, he didn't listen to a word she said for months on end asking for the bottle back, stupified by the bottle fairytale told to him by Dahlia not Iris! Does he respect the kind of 'sacrifices' she makes in 3-5 (taking the fall for the murder and concealing the truth Phoenix is so obsessed about) or her continual loyalty to Dahlia over him, EVEN IN 3-5? I repeat, Iris is NOT Dollie, Phoenix was in love with a kind of fantasy and had zero respect for Iris herself.

And in the most beautiful story of irony, in 3-5 we get both the inversion of 3-1 and 3-4 and what might be read as the counterpart to the 'card scene' in 2-4. We all know Phoenix never gets the card. Well, 3-5 implies he doesn't need it. Phoenix didn't need a 'picture' to recognise Maya in 3-5, just his belief she didn't betray his trust by committing murder or abandoning him in court , because Maya doesn't keep the same visual form :will:

copy-pasted from a past post:
The point is the symbolism of the writing. The game plot gives us another graphic demonstration Phoenix's belief in Maya won't be betrayed. (Which had a zillion times more impact than some dumb awkward scene where someone gets a card and they blush stammer and deny idiotically in a superficial manner.) The relationship might not be 'proven' 'romantic' but at least it's proven REAL, in direct contrast to certain other incidents of Phoenix's betrayal which were constructed (since GS2) as direct contrast.

Shippers don't need a cheesy confession scene that looks as fake as 'Dollie'. Maya's already given Phoenix the Magatama as a 'bond of trust' in 2-2 anyway, the analogue to the lying 'Poison Bottle 'love token' that accompanies Feenie's delusion. If Iris had turned up to court in 3-1 maybe Feenie would have recognised her over Dahlia. But she abandons him instead. The irony (these games are filled with it) is deliberate.
Takumi is a genius.

And then Iris abandons him in court again by agreeing to switch places with Dahlia again in 3-5, so Dahlia comes to trial, just like in 3-1. Yet again her loyalty to Dahlia ultimately overrides any dedication to Feenie. Pretty good Phoenix can believe it's 'impossible' Maya betrayed him by murdering and jumping off the bridge, you know like in 3-4 and Terry's misguided belief in his 'girlfriend'?

Except the belief is not unrequited this time, hence the critical reversal/turnabout of the trial. And Maya is indeed in the court, unlike 3-1.
That might be 'luck' on Maya's part, but it's really effected by Iris betraying Feenie's trust yet again, so it's basically justice/'karma'. Because Maya didn't betray him, not even in 2-4 when she was willing to demote her own interests of rescue/survival, as she does over and over in the series.

Now I think the Iris hate where she's said to be a 'Mary Sue' is incorrect. She has deep character flaws, but some dedication to her own 'ideals'. 'Unfortunately' they are ones completely incompatible with Phoenix's and her loyalty to them (and Dahlia) overrides her loyalty to Phoenix in general. The entire Dollie saga seemed to be a kind of nightmare backwards analogue to both Maya and Edgeworth.


Now I'm not saying P/M is canon as in Romantic P/M is canon, but the FRIENDSHIP is canon, and proven to survive all kinds of tests of their trust and belief in each other, kind of like the end of 3-5 is saying Phoenix doesn't NEED some fantasy Dollie since he has real friends he can actually rely on and believe in like Maya and Edgeworth. Now if P/I shippers read that and get mad, well it's not like everyone doesn't have the right as fans to pair up whoever if they want to imagine it, but the game writers themselves really don't seem to be implying future P/I was at all likely. If Maya and Edgeworth are Phoenix's 'Partners' (yes that can be platonic, and probably is as far as the writers are concerned) that complement him and allow him to uncover the truth and he can trust and believe in, then 'Dollie' is the UnPartner, and 'Dollie' is that whole conceptual mess that included Dahlia, Iris and Feenie's delusions. And much like the Magatama given by Maya allows Phoenix to see the truth and uncover lies, Dollie's Bottle hides the truth (of Dahlia's past murder/poisoning of Diego) and turns Feenie into a delusional idiot -a spell Iris is unable to break.


Thinking about these comments, if Iris is too bland (Nearavex's comments) or fundamentally incompatible, then who isn't? There's really no character left that can effectively challenge Maya as a potential romantic partner and soulmate, except maybe Edgeworth if you want yaoi (and naturally, Phoenix/Edgeworth seem to be the biggest ship in fandom besides Phoenix/Maya). Would Phoenix want to settle down with another woman if it meant he couldn't have Maya "by his side" anymore? Would many people really want to see that in an Ace Attorney game?

Another thing: do you think that Phoenix and Maya both are just really...naive about romantic relationships? I mean, Nick had his one crummy relationship with Dollie, but otherwise it seems like they approach the subject almost like middle schoolers, and stay friends because they're just not ready yet. It reminds me a little of a Phoenix/Maya doujinshi by Cursor, called Usotsuki todoku. Until the big kiss, Phoenix and Maya stumble through a "do you like me like me"-type conversation that sounds like it could come from an episode of Hey Arnold! or something.
Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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RisanF wrote:
icer wrote:
RisanF wrote:
Quick Question: What does everyone here think of Iris and her role as Phoenix's love interest?


Future P/I is not canon implied.

My argument to support that is about a million words long.... I won't bore you all to tears again

Spoiler: shorter answer
But ummmm... how many other clients GO TO JAIL? None except in the later-written 1-5. That's hardly a Happy Fairytale Sunset Ending. It's more irony. The Happy Sunset Ending is with Maya and Phoenix's other friends in the 'ending picture' (which doesn't include Iris). Remember 3-5 originally was supposed to be the end for Phoenix and cast.

Basically 'Dollie' (which consists of Phoenix's delusion, Dahlia and Iris) is like a final boss. Phoenix didn't know Iris, he knew an imaginary delusion he was supposedly in love with called 'Dollie'. Iris did the worst thing to hurt Phoenix, who has a kind of abandonment complex (he mopes when Maya leaves in 1-5, he feels totally betrayed by Edgeworth leaving before 2-4...), abandoning him at trial to be convicted of murder. Come on, that's one huge betrayal. And she never sends him a letter or anything, and if Iris knew Phoenix, she'd know one of his other core character traits is being obsessed with the truth. We can FORGIVE Iris, but should they really be together? Does Phoenix understand Iris EITHER? No, he didn't listen to a word she said for months on end asking for the bottle back, stupified by the bottle fairytale told to him by Dahlia not Iris! Does he respect the kind of 'sacrifices' she makes in 3-5 (taking the fall for the murder and concealing the truth Phoenix is so obsessed about) or her continual loyalty to Dahlia over him, EVEN IN 3-5? I repeat, Iris is NOT Dollie, Phoenix was in love with a kind of fantasy and had zero respect for Iris herself.

And in the most beautiful story of irony, in 3-5 we get both the inversion of 3-1 and 3-4 and what might be read as the counterpart to the 'card scene' in 2-4. We all know Phoenix never gets the card. Well, 3-5 implies he doesn't need it. Phoenix didn't need a 'picture' to recognise Maya in 3-5, just his belief she didn't betray his trust by committing murder or abandoning him in court , because Maya doesn't keep the same visual form :will:

copy-pasted from a past post:
The point is the symbolism of the writing. The game plot gives us another graphic demonstration Phoenix's belief in Maya won't be betrayed. (Which had a zillion times more impact than some dumb awkward scene where someone gets a card and they blush stammer and deny idiotically in a superficial manner.) The relationship might not be 'proven' 'romantic' but at least it's proven REAL, in direct contrast to certain other incidents of Phoenix's betrayal which were constructed (since GS2) as direct contrast.

Shippers don't need a cheesy confession scene that looks as fake as 'Dollie'. Maya's already given Phoenix the Magatama as a 'bond of trust' in 2-2 anyway, the analogue to the lying 'Poison Bottle 'love token' that accompanies Feenie's delusion. If Iris had turned up to court in 3-1 maybe Feenie would have recognised her over Dahlia. But she abandons him instead. The irony (these games are filled with it) is deliberate.
Takumi is a genius.

And then Iris abandons him in court again by agreeing to switch places with Dahlia again in 3-5, so Dahlia comes to trial, just like in 3-1. Yet again her loyalty to Dahlia ultimately overrides any dedication to Feenie. Pretty good Phoenix can believe it's 'impossible' Maya betrayed him by murdering and jumping off the bridge, you know like in 3-4 and Terry's misguided belief in his 'girlfriend'?

Except the belief is not unrequited this time, hence the critical reversal/turnabout of the trial. And Maya is indeed in the court, unlike 3-1.
That might be 'luck' on Maya's part, but it's really effected by Iris betraying Feenie's trust yet again, so it's basically justice/'karma'. Because Maya didn't betray him, not even in 2-4 when she was willing to demote her own interests of rescue/survival, as she does over and over in the series.

Now I think the Iris hate where she's said to be a 'Mary Sue' is incorrect. She has deep character flaws, but some dedication to her own 'ideals'. 'Unfortunately' they are ones completely incompatible with Phoenix's and her loyalty to them (and Dahlia) overrides her loyalty to Phoenix in general. The entire Dollie saga seemed to be a kind of nightmare backwards analogue to both Maya and Edgeworth.


Now I'm not saying P/M is canon as in Romantic P/M is canon, but the FRIENDSHIP is canon, and proven to survive all kinds of tests of their trust and belief in each other, kind of like the end of 3-5 is saying Phoenix doesn't NEED some fantasy Dollie since he has real friends he can actually rely on and believe in like Maya and Edgeworth. Now if P/I shippers read that and get mad, well it's not like everyone doesn't have the right as fans to pair up whoever if they want to imagine it, but the game writers themselves really don't seem to be implying future P/I was at all likely. If Maya and Edgeworth are Phoenix's 'Partners' (yes that can be platonic, and probably is as far as the writers are concerned) that complement him and allow him to uncover the truth and he can trust and believe in, then 'Dollie' is the UnPartner, and 'Dollie' is that whole conceptual mess that included Dahlia, Iris and Feenie's delusions. And much like the Magatama given by Maya allows Phoenix to see the truth and uncover lies, Dollie's Bottle hides the truth (of Dahlia's past murder/poisoning of Diego) and turns Feenie into a delusional idiot -a spell Iris is unable to break.


Thinking about these comments, if Iris is too bland (Nearavex's comments) or fundamentally incompatible, then who isn't? There's really no character left that can effectively challenge Maya as a potential romantic partner and soulmate, except maybe Edgeworth if you want yaoi (and naturally, Phoenix/Edgeworth seem to be the biggest ship in fandom besides Phoenix/Maya). Would Phoenix want to settle down with another woman if it meant he couldn't have Maya "by his side" anymore? Would many people really want to see that in an Ace Attorney game?

Another thing: do you think that Phoenix and Maya both are just really...naive about romantic relationships? I mean, Nick had his one crummy relationship with Dollie, but otherwise it seems like they approach the subject almost like middle schoolers, and stay friends because they're just not ready yet. It reminds me a little of a Phoenix/Maya doujinshi by Cursor, called Usotsuki todoku. Until the big kiss, Phoenix and Maya stumble through a "do you like me like me"-type conversation that sounds like it could come from an episode of Hey Arnold! or something.


Phoenix of 3-1 was painted as an extremely immature individual, which I took as the game's reason why he was not just crazy in love, but stupid in love with his Dollie. But I've also suspected that Phoenix didn't have any real relationships before Iris... either that, or his experience with Iris turned him into a blubbering, snot-nosed idiot. (Honestly, I'm still waiting for the writers to justify 3-1 Phoenix to the players. Who the hell IS that guy, seriously?)

Maya's spent most of her time in a secluded village in the mountains, with few men around. No one mentions any sons that may have been born in the village, so I'm guessing there weren't many or the butthurt dads took the sons with them when they could no longer stand being left out of the spirit channeling thing. So Maya likely has very little experience in romance herself.
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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I don't think I ever said Iris was bland...? Maybe you mistook my comments with someone else's?

I... might be leaning more towards Phoenix/Maya now, but I still don't get how Phoenix/Iris is merely a symbol of delusion. Phoenix himself says that Iris was always the person he thought her to be, and that he always believed in her.


Last edited by Nearavex on Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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