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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Nearavex wrote:
I don't think I ever said Iris was bland...? Maybe you mistook my comments with someone else's?

I... might be leaning more towards Phoenix/Maya now, but I still don't get how Phoenix/Iris is merely a symbol of delusion. Phoenx himself says that Iris was always the person he thought her to be, and that he always believed in her.


'always the person he thought her to be'
Um yeah, Iris is not Dahlia. That's just a fact, not a love confession.
'he always believed in her'
Believed she was innocent of murder, like every client he's ever had (apart from Engarde).
There could have been a love requiting confession from Phoenix, there was not.

Briefly...
Godot throughout GS3 is implying Feenie is a delusional idiot in ENTIRETY. You notice a core trait of Phoenix is his belief in innocent clients, it's really a big thing for him.
Iris was innocent of murder, that was true.
If Dollie had been Dahlia ALL THE TIME this would have made Phoenix's entire career questionable. ("Dahlia is not a murderer").
But Phoenix was right about one thing, that Iris is not a murderer, even though she is accomplice to multiple murders.
This verified Phoenix's INTUITION as a defense attorney, not that P/I is Perfect Future Romantic Love.

Please look at how Phoenix fell in 'love' with Dollie. It happened before he met Iris, apparently BECAUSE Dahlia told him some story about how she instantly fell in love with him and gave him the bottle as a symbol of their eternal love.
Then he subsequently ignored Iris' endless attempts to make him give it back.
We can acknowledge that eventually Iris got feelings toward Feenie, but it would be pretty insulting for Phoenix otherwise, right?
Seriously, from Phoenix's end, the 'relationship' was not at all to do with Iris herself, who he neither knows or respects, and just ignores everything she says because it conflicts with the 'fairytale' he believes in about 'their relationship' told to him by Dahlia.
In 3-5 Phoenix wants answers from this unresolved trauma of the past, and gets them. It's closure, and him and Iris can MOVE ON, but not into a relationship.

Errr, right, I'll repost something about P/I I seem to have written in 2010 (and I'm of much the same opinion now)
Spoiler: long
http://bludhavens.livejournal.com/28137.html?thread=35602665
Well, the canon itself seems to go to great lengths to illustrate many depictions, indicating that they have incompatible personality traits and diametrically opposed fundamental value systems incomprehensible to each other.

I actually find future P/I to be degrading to Iris as well. Iris is actually a complex and somewhat broken character, NOT a sweet perfect Mary Sue. But P/I often seems to be founded on the assumption Iris is or will become Mary Sue, the magical perfect Dollie who never actually existed in the first place.

Iris isn't a sweet, innocent girl. She's deliberate and willing accomplice/accessory to murder in 3-4, 3-1 AND 3-5, and she NEVER cooperates with justice to help the innocents accused in those cases, when she could have at least done so anonymously. And since she's basically signing up to suicide in 3-5, she obviously has severe psychological issues which Godot cruelly exploits. Phoenix isn't good with psychology, so isn't going to be able to 'fix' her. When Edgeworth 'chose death' he just felt betrayed and 'wished him dead'. When Maya tried to leave in 1-4, it was the fact Phoenix could show her evidence which fixed things, not his counselling skills.

Future P/I seems to be a misread of the actual setting free of Iris from Dahlia's lie in 3-5. Iris was never 'Dollie', that was just Dahlia's lie. She was never 'Dollie' so of course she failed being her. But Phoenix was 'in love' with the imaginary 'Dollie," NOT Iris. The point of 3-5's P-I scene is that finally Iris can stop living in the shadow of Dahlia, as Phoenix recognised her as a separate person from her. That's just personal validation she's 'not murderer Dahlia', not a sign he's in love with her, or ever was. If she's not Dahlia, she can stop being Dahlia's little interchangeable pawn double and hopefully turn away from a life of dubious crime.

As for future P/I? That's basically trapping Iris (And Phoenix) in DAHLIA'S lie. Because, I'm sorry. Phoenix genuinely seemed to be as much as love with his Dahlia-induced strange fairytale about the bottle and what he thought Dollie would do since they were 'in love'. Iris didn't 'betray' him, but DOLLIE betrayed him. Every time Real Iris asserted herself, by asking for the bottle back every day for 8 months, Phoenix IGNORED HER and dismissed her as 'not meaning it' because it wasn't consistent with 'Dollie'. This is hardly a good precedent.

And what did Phoenix believe about 'Dollie', which seemed to be a major factor in why he was in 'love' with her? He tells us at trial, and Terry has similar attitudes (Dahlia probably used the same story.) Dollie *will* turn up to trial! Dollie won't ever abandon me! Dollie will save me! Dollie will protect and defend me at all costs! Dollie will make sacrifices, even risk her life, to defend me from the murder accusations, and I will do the same for her! All these get betrayed.

And just marking all this up to Phoenix’s unachievable immaturity and he won't desire these kinds of qualities in future P/I is stupid, because we can see that in the present he does have loyal friends who'll put themselves on the line for him, even in the very same case.

Let's look at Phoenix’s desired relationship characteristics and fundamental value systems, and how they are at odds/incompatible with Iris'. Neither are 'wrong', they just are incompatible. They don't get each other and I can't see Phoenix actually ever respecting Iris, nor will Iris do a 360 and 'change' her most fundamental value systems to 'be the same as him'

ABANDONMENT seems to be one of Phoenix’s worst nightmares. When Edgeworth abandoned him and their former mutual values, Phoenix wished him dead, that's intense, he clearly felt very betrayed. When Maya left after 1-4 even when she was coming back, Phoenix MOPED.
Not only did Iris abandon him, but she assumed he WANTED to be abandoned and never even sent a letter or anything.

Ensuring JUSTICE, Uncovering MURDERERS and sending them to jail/execution.
VS Iris' endless covering and obstruction of the truth and protecting and forgiving murderers. Iris isn't going to shift away from this value system post jail, she'll just hopefully stop committing crimes. I mean, she'll even DIE over the truth being exposed and murderers being locked away (and she doesn't 'love Godot.') Iris thinks the truth should be covered if it hurts. Phoenix thinks lies should be exposed. Iris thinks murderers should be forgiven. It's her TWIN and MOTHER, she has empathy! She's not going to shift away from this and the poor thing should be with someone who'd actually respect this. Phoenix SENT THEM TO BE EXECUTED. Yeah, Phoenix killed her mother (I assume she's on death row now.) Will she ever REALLY support his day job in spirit, or, in AJ, his pursuit of Kristoph instead of 'forgiving'? And expecting her to is the most fundamental invalidation. They will never understand each other.

On a more general level, Phoenix is a fan of the uncovering lies, exposing the truth EVEN IF IT HURTS (Edgeworth shares this even more obsessively.) Iris is a fan of 'little grey lies' and 'concealing the truth if it hurts'. Is he ever going to respect this? In AJ, Phoenix becomes more deviant but just shifts further away from Iris' values into 'exposing murderers at all costs'. In 3-5, Edgeworth knows right away Phoenix NEEDS the turth for closure. Iris is just shocked at this, she assumed he didn't WANT the truth.

And of course MUTUAL LOYALTY and TRUST is a big one of Phoenix's values. There's no getting around Iris was in the end more loyal to protecting Dahlia and concealing the truth, even if it meant Phoenix's death, even after Dahlia was dead, even in 3-5. Will he ever trust her? CAN he ever trust her? This person is so obsessive about not having concealed lies he goes around with a MAGATAMA and I don't think Iris wants daily psyche-lock breaking sessions.

There's nothing 'wrong' with Iris' basic value system (when used in the right contexts) but she needs to be with people WHO RESPECT IT and Phoenix never will.

And we get graphic depictions of how these incompatible value systems go wrong when together throughout the game! Even in 3-5, Iris just hinders Phoenix’s pursuit of the truth and obstructs his attempts to save her, they're incapable of working together productively when 'reality' throws up problems on the fantasy. The Iris story is a case highlighting Phoenix’s traits misfiring also. Sure he was correct in his belief Iris wasn't a murderer, but his belief (and other delusions) ALMOST GOT HIM KILLED.

And we can look at Phoenix’s actual canonic positive relationships. (Edgeworth. Maya.) Why does Phoenix appreciate these people and find them mutually beneficial relationships that WORK productively? They share some of his most basic desired relationship values and value systems. Edgeworth shares his old expose the truth, lock up real murderers and defeat lies value system, as well as being a loyal friend who'll make sacrifices he help him (Like in 3-5 flying in in the middle of the night and risking himself by playing defense attorney, or helping him in 2-4.) and Phoenix and Maya have the trust-loyalty-make sacrifices to defend each other thing going on, a sort of Bottle Story Lite, and is only dedicated to exposing lies and murderers. BOTH characters make significant risks and sacrifices for Phoenix. How does Iris complement him? Physical attraction is fine for a fairytale date each weekend, but once people say, get married, there has to be a little more to it. And when their most basic need/value systems are at incomprehensible odds, it's going to come into conflict or obliviousness to meeting needs or come crashing down. As it did.

Oh, but Iris will get magically 'fixed' in jail now she's 'saved'? No.

Compare to Edgeworth. Edgeworth was NOT magically 'redeemed' to his justice/truth spewing 4th grade self by his saving in 1-4. First Edgeworth had to go off and redeem HIMSELF after metaphoric 'death', and PROVE his redemption in court before Phoenix stopped wishing him dead. This was the subject of an entire separate GAME. But as for 3-5, it's THE HAPPY END. And GS4 is NOT a story about Iris' Magic Redemption. Also, Edgeworth really did hold the values of Phoenix's Truth/Justice Obsession back in 4th grade. But Iris herself *never* held all the crazy loyalty values Feenie imagined around Dollie and their Bottle Story (Terry had a similar delusion over it.) So she's not going to magically revert back to holding them, Edgeworth-style.

The Dollie Story is an IRONIC spin on the Edgeworth story, but it's not the same nor does it have the same outcome. Observe reversal. The Murderer was a lie in Edgeworth story and Childhood Friend/Justice Story was true. In Dollie story the Murderer was real and the Childhood Dollie Fantasy was fake.

FAKE > Edgeworth the 'Murderer'
Game 1 [real] > Edgeworth the Demon Prosecutor: obstructs justice, conceals lies, protects murderers
Real, Post Redemption [after metaphoric 'death'] > Edgeworth the Childhood Truth/Justice Partner

Real > Dahlia the Murderer
Real > Iris [the 'Demon Prosecutor']: obstructs justice, conceals lies, protects murderers
FAKE > Dollie the Magic Loyal Partner in youth's Bottle Fairytale

Phoenix and Iris don't work in REALITY, and once Iris has been rewritten into something which WILL work with Phoenix, well, she's not Iris anymore, and if Phoenix respects what makes her tick, he's not Phoenix. (Unless she shuts up and is a doll and denies her most basic value systems.) And I think Phoenix has moved beyond wanting a silent, omelette serving love doll. I mean, he 'imagined' other properties that *Iris* couldn't fill even in 3-1!

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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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It's really somewhat sad, put this way.
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icer wrote:
'always the person he thought her to be'
Um yeah, Iris is not Dahlia. That's just a fact, not a love confession.
'he always believed in her'
Believed she was innocent of murder, like every client he's ever had (apart from Engarde).
There could have been a love requiting confession from Phoenix, there was not.


I read a bit more into it. She was "always the person he thought she was" in that she really was that sweet, caring person he fell in love with. After seeing Feenie head over heels for "Dollie" and refusing to believe the real Dahlia was, well, the real Dahlia it's hard to think it was something as cut and dried as "she was innocent of murder."

That said, it's still past tense. Phoenix spent the last five or six years getting over Dollie. He learned to cope with it and got over her. Just because this confession happened, it doesn't mean he's going to suddenly have a relapse of feelings for her. Beyond that, he knows the truth now. He'll have to look past her being identical to the woman who hurt so many people close to him and tried to even kill him and furthermore, he'll have to look past her being an accomplice to all of that.

So he believed in her, but that doesn't mean he loved her. It just means he won't hold a grudge against her and maybe a confession that what they had could have been real if it wasn't all just a big ball of lies. It's over, though. I can see Phoenix wondering whether he should start things up with her again out of some idea that it's "the right thing to do" but I honestly can't see him being happy.

Nearavex wrote:
I don't think I ever said Iris was bland...?


I'll say it then. Iris was bland. Worse than that, she was an incredibly weak willed person. She was used as a puppet consistently be it for Dahlia's fake kidnappings and murders or Godot's disastrous scheme of self-redemption. She makes the claim that she'd have saved Phoenix even if it mean Dahlia's life or her own, but do you believe that? Has she ever done anything that suggested she'd be capable of sacrificing herself or her sister? She'd probably make the threat, Dahlia would call her bluff, and then she'd freeze up and break down.

When Phoenix was faced with Manfred von Karma's taser, Maya jumped first so he could escape. When Phoenix fell into Dusky River, Edgeworth flew back to the States and impersonated a defense attorney. When Phoenix was unwittingly dating someone who wanted to kill him, Iris just sort of coasted along and made no real effort to just steal that necklace off his bedside table or something. She doesn't fit into the tight bonds represented by the "main three". I think even Capcom realizes this. She hasn't even been spoken of since. The closest that comes is some DLC costumes of Feenie's ugly sweater.

If Phoenix did wind up with Iris at the end of T&T, don't you think it would have been a horrible ending? After building such a strong relationship with Maya over the course of three games and the climax of the final case of the series (at that time) revolving almost entirely around Maya and her safety, some new girl just gets written in out of nowhere and she and Phoenix fall in love? That would have been a miserable, embarrassing fizzle to cap off what was an intense thrill ride. Maybe they would have had a history, but this is a story. The audience has to see that history to care.

So in the end, Iris goes to jail and Phoenix ends up with Maya like he's supposed to. Except it's not romantic. He just ends up with Maya and Pearls in the makeshift family we've come to adore and that's just fine. AJ ruins everything, but at least T&T ended with Phoenix and his girls and without a nasty swerve into a shoehorned romance.
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nevertalk wrote:
Nearavex wrote:
I don't think I ever said Iris was bland...?

I'll say it then. Iris was bland. Worse than that, she was an incredibly weak willed person. She was used as a puppet consistently be it for Dahlia's fake kidnappings and murders or Godot's disastrous scheme of self-redemption. She makes the claim that she'd have saved Phoenix even if it mean Dahlia's life or her own, but do you believe that? Has she ever done anything that suggested she'd be capable of sacrificing herself or her sister? She'd probably make the threat, Dahlia would call her bluff, and then she'd freeze up and break down.

While I have a bit different view on the matter, I do agree that this was badly executed. I always thought that it shouldn't have been limited to a declaration and there could be an unexamined aspect of 3-1, like signs of a struggle, or something similar to how GK2-1 or 4-1 had some things which would be revealed later on.


Last edited by Nearavex on Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nearavex wrote:
While I have a bit different view on the matter, I do agree that this was badly executed. I always thought that it shouldn't have been limited to a declaration and there could be an unexamined aspect of 3-1, like signs of a struggle, or something similar to how GK2-1 or 4-1 had some things which would :meekins: be revealed later on.


But there wasn't. It could have been written so easily IF Takumi had wanted Iris to be that way, that she'd been thwarted and that was why she didn't come to trial in 3-1.
But 3-5 reenforces she STILL hasn't changed, switching with Dahlia AGAIN when Dahlia demands it and betraying Phoenix again. Come on it was written that way on purpose.
Thankfully so-called karma means this is a good thing for Phoenix since Maya is in court to be recognised and getting the scene Iris never got in 3-1, which was her own fault. The Happy End is that Phoenix has since found people who he can rely on and believe in like he couldn't about 'Dollie', even if they aren't some magical fairytale love doll, who don't exist.
So I see 3-5's end as deliberately subverting that dumb trope about some magical princess being found at the end for the sunset ending.

Nearavex wrote:
It's really somewhat sad, put this way.


Yeah it is sad but Iris is a tragic character, the counterpart to Godot. And really it's a lot better for her now than it would have been. She goes to jail but gets punished for her real crimes rather than her silly self-sacrifice as a 'murderer'. She's psychologically disturbed and Godot is just exploiting her. Phoenix forgives her rather than holding a grudge. She can move on and hopefully stop being accessory to murder. And Bikini wants her. A lot of these stories are actually pretty dark.
(As for Phoenix's silly belief in clients, ummmmm thank you GS4 for inverting the miraculous Iris tale. It implies it really is insanity. Now if only there was high res art of GS4 we'd find out if it actually implied Larry/Iris was 'canon', as one of the backgrounds supposedly shows them together on a 'date', but it's so small you can't prove anything.)
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Sierra Mikain wrote:
Phoenix of 3-1 was painted as an extremely immature individual, which I took as the game's reason why he was not just crazy in love, but stupid in love with his Dollie. But I've also suspected that Phoenix didn't have any real relationships before Iris... either that, or his experience with Iris turned him into a blubbering, snot-nosed idiot. (Honestly, I'm still waiting for the writers to justify 3-1 Phoenix to the players. Who the hell IS that guy, seriously?)

Maya's spent most of her time in a secluded village in the mountains, with few men around. No one mentions any sons that may have been born in the village, so I'm guessing there weren't many or the butthurt dads took the sons with them when they could no longer stand being left out of the spirit channeling thing. So Maya likely has very little experience in romance herself.


Kinda makes them more perfect for each other, doesn't it? :phoenix: :maya:

Nearavex wrote:
I don't think I ever said Iris was bland...? Maybe you mistook my comments with someone else's?


:objection:

Actually, you did say this in the other thread: "I actually like her personality in itself, but I think there wasn't really a good opportunity to flesh it out, so it did kinda turn out somewhat bland." Of course, just about anybody looks bland compared to Maya. I think that's part of why it hard to cobble together a new love intrerst for Phoenix, because Maya is so dominant, and is already doing 9/10ths of the love interest role. The character just ends up looking like a foil for Maya, and I have doubts whether a new character could convincingly capture Phoenix's heart that way.

nevertalk wrote:
If Phoenix did wind up with Iris at the end of T&T, don't you think it would have been a horrible ending? After building such a strong relationship with Maya over the course of three games and the climax of the final case of the series (at that time) revolving almost entirely around Maya and her safety, some new girl just gets written in out of nowhere and she and Phoenix fall in love? That would have been a miserable, embarrassing fizzle to cap off what was an intense thrill ride. Maybe they would have had a history, but this is a story. The audience has to see that history to care.


Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any room in the story for a love interest like Iris. The imagery used for Phoenix and Maya in the Ace Attorney series is too close to being romantic, with Phoenix, Maya, and Pearl looking like a husband, a wife, and a daughter.
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Ah, that one. Yeah, I admitted that presentation was somewhat poorly executed, but it wasn't exactly my opinion on her character itself ^^;

Well, I don't really disagree with those points about pairings, but I still appreciate their relationship, even if romantic only in the past. The fact that so few appreciate Iris's character somewhat saddens me. ._.
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Nearavex wrote:
Well, I don't really disagree with those points about pairings, but I still appreciate their relationship, even if romantic only in the past. The fact that so few appreciate Iris's character somewhat saddens me. ._.

When I did the character sorter, Iris came out 121 out of 140. I've actually come to appreciate her character a lot more as of late (mostly due to your posts, admittedly) as well as appreciating 3-5 more. Looking at my list, I'd say I'd ballpark her around #25 (my list isn't completely accurate anyway, as I think she's a better character than Engarde but worse than Gregory Edgeworth)

Anyway, I don't ship Phoenix and Iris (but I don't ship Phoenix and Maya either). While I will say that I don't think Iris is the right person for Phoenix and it probably would make more sense for him to end up with Maya, I do think Iris and Phoenix shared a more meaningful relationship, considering she helped him close a significant chapter in his life. Her character has also made me appreciate Phoenix's more in T&T
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Speaking of the Magical Bottle, you did notice that Elise's book ('which is just a fairytale for kids') is called 'The Magic Bottle'. I do think this is a deliberate association....
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Spoiler:
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(Not mine)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
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What an idiot. He should have jumped across. This is why we can't have nice things, Nickerdoodle.

Nice fiery effects, though.
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
What an idiot. He should have jumped across. This is why we can't have nice things, Nickerdoodle.

Nice fiery effects, though.

The person who requested this fanart actually specifically requested that Nick's legs be skinnier than the rest of his body (Nick is the kind of guy who always skips leg day, I suppose). If Nick couldn't jump across, he has nobody to blame but himself
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Speaking of "Nickerdoodle", is there fanart of Maya trying to eat his attorney's badge? It looks so much like a cookie.

"Hey, Maya. Here's my attorney's badge."
"You know, Nick, one of these days I feel like something might happen to it."
"What do you mean by that?"
"I mean... it looks so much like a cookie."
"........."
"You never know what might come along and snatch it away again."
"If you want cookies, bake some yourself."
"Sure, if you have a cookie tray here."
"You'll probably need to find one at the groceries."
"...... What do you even do with your life without cookies!?"
(Not everyone can have their cookie and eat it too, Maya.)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
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Actually that was inspired by Video Games Awesome. XD They asked for someone to do fan art of Phoenix running across the burning bridge with an oiled up chest. XD
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler:
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Actually that was inspired by Video Games Awesome. XD They asked for someone to do fan art of Phoenix running across the burning bridge with an oiled up chest. XD

Yup. That's where I got it
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler:
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hwat
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jkghjkhk wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler:
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hwat




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*sigh* And now you've gone and brought this kind of posters into the thread with that picture...
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Ucha Nekome wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler:
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Actually that was inspired by Video Games Awesome. XD They asked for someone to do fan art of Phoenix running across the burning bridge with an oiled up chest. XD


Spoiler:
Oiled-up, glisening Phoenix... I laughed so hard at that.


RisanF wrote:
Quick Question: What does everyone here think of Iris and her role as Phoenix's love interest?


In terms of an actual romantic relationship for Phoenix, it is not an unreasonable for people to feel that Maya is the most plausible candidate of all the female characters Phoenix has interacted with to date, including Iris. I myself genuinely struggle to see him with any woman other than Maya simply because I cannot really see him loving anyone as much as he seems to love her. And he does love her, there is no denying that. Whether it is a romantic love or not is really up to fans to decide and play around with in fanworks.

Still even seeing them as just extremely close friends, the sacrifices, faith and trust they express for each other is such a core element to the story itself (not just their dynamic) that I feel Phoenix would struggle to put any other romantic interest in the same league as what he has been willing to go through for Maya's sake. PL vs. PW has only served to reinforce this. It seemed very telling that Takumi felt the need to stop the action (and main story) to dedicate a whole segment to Phoenix's conflict over wanting to be strong for Luke and Espella but being so utterly heartbroken at having lost Maya. Even though I knew Maya had to be alive it really set off the emotions known to fandom as "feels".

As I have seen others already point out, one of the key aspects of Phoenix's entire identity is his need to trust people and know the truth, two things that Iris has twice thrown back in his face. She may not have ever meant for it to be malicious but it still shows how she simply is not on the same wavelength as him. In comparison, as loopy and weird as Phoenix thinks Maya can be they work on a similar playing field. True, Maya has had three games to lock herself into the fans' hearts and Iris had only one case but... isn't that the point? The fact that Takumi opted not to actively invest people in the idea of Phoenix x Iris in T&T suggests that he didn't really see it that way either.

The fact she had never been mentioned since by the new development team shows they think even less of it.
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Speaking of awesome moments of saving Maya...

I was really hoping I'd see some amazing fanart of Edgeworth and Nick double-booting down the door in the cellar when they went down to save Maya in 2-4.

I mean that's the stuff awesome 80s action posters are made of.
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scarlettpeony wrote:
RisanF wrote:
Quick Question: What does everyone here think of Iris and her role as Phoenix's love interest?


In terms of an actual romantic relationship for Phoenix, it is not an unreasonable for people to feel that Maya is the most plausible candidate of all the female characters Phoenix has interacted with to date, including Iris. I myself genuinely struggle to see him with any woman other than Maya simply because I cannot really see him loving anyone as much as he seems to love her. And he does love her, there is no denying that. Whether it is a romantic love or not is really up to fans to decide and play around with in fanworks.

Still even seeing them as just extremely close friends, the sacrifices, faith and trust they express for each other is such a core element to the story itself (not just their dynamic) that I feel Phoenix would struggle to put any other romantic interest in the same league as what he has been willing to go through for Maya's sake. PL vs. PW has only served to reinforce this. It seemed very telling that Takumi felt the need to stop the action (and main story) to dedicate a whole segment to Phoenix's conflict over wanting to be strong for Luke and Espella but being so utterly heartbroken at having lost Maya. Even though I knew Maya had to be alive it really set off the emotions known to fandom as "feels".

As I have seen others already point out, one of the key aspects of Phoenix's entire identity is his need to trust people and know the truth, two things that Iris has twice thrown back in his face. She may not have ever meant for it to be malicious but it still shows how she simply is not on the same wavelength as him. In comparison, as loopy and weird as Phoenix thinks Maya can be they work on a similar playing field. True, Maya has had three games to lock herself into the fans' hearts and Iris had only one case but... isn't that the point? The fact that Takumi opted not to actively invest people in the idea of Phoenix x Iris in T&T suggests that he didn't really see it that way either.

The fact she had never been mentioned since by the new development team shows they think even less of it.


I think it all goes back to a comment by Nearavex about it making "more sense for Pheonix to end up with Maya." From the fanworks I seen, as well as my own fanfic writing experience, Phoenix/Maya stuff absolutely writes itself. The character's very archetypes are designed to work in these kinds of close-knit. pseudo-romantic circumstances, and Pheonix and Maya don't really deviate from the idea. Trying to shy away from it by introducing other love interests is like throwing a big wrench into the works, when it's better to just let things develop to their natural conclusion.

Last edited by RisanF on Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pierre wrote:
Speaking of awesome moments of saving Maya...

I was really hoping I'd see some amazing fanart of Edgeworth and Nick double-booting down the door in the cellar when they went down to save Maya in 2-4.

I mean that's the stuff awesome 80s action posters are made of.


I... I took it out of context. I'm sorry.
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Re: Phoenix and Maya Fan ClubTopic%20Title
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Mind if I join this club? I'm still new and I need a place to be, you know what I mean? :yogi:
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CrayonKiddo wrote:
Mind if I join this club? I'm still new and I need a place to be, you know what I mean? :yogi:


Teehee! You're very polite to ask first. I just barged in and shared my opinion about the Phoenix and Maya dynamic. I'm guessing you are a fan of the two characters in question? :phoenix:
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Yes! Phoenix is a helpful and caring man. And I wouldn't mind having a friend like Maya :godot: She'd wreck my mind, that's for sure, but still, she is a very likeable girl in my opinion :gant:
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CrayonKiddo wrote:
Mind if I join this club? I'm still new and I need a place to be, you know what I mean? :yogi:


Welcome to the club!
*showers confetti*
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I don't know if this was ever posted here (you know, it's hard to check 150+ pages), but...

Spoiler:
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I really love this picture of Nick and Maya. It makes me feel better when I see them together in general.
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If it pleases the court, I request to join this group.
I confess, this is the only fictional non-canon pairing I support 100%! :D
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I too, would like to request to join this club. I don't always ship, especially in anime, [desk slam] but when I do... [dramatic closeup] I go all out!
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Spoiler:
I confess, the first time I saw Trucy (as a little kid in Phoenix's locket, I thought, "NO...WAY..." But then she appeared as a sixteen year old to Apollo in the court lobby to give him the bloody ace, I thought, "Nope. No way."

The execution rests, Your Honor.
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GRRRRRRRRRRR....... :dahlia: :kudo: :tigre: :grey: :starr: :lotta-angry: :whip: :pizza: :sahwit-bald: :headbang: :zap: :toaster:
WHY HAVEN'T WE SEEN THESE TWO TOGETHER LATELY CAPCOM?
THAT SPINOFF GAME DOESN'T COUNT YOU KNOW.

Look, "The Great Ace Attorney" looks cool and all, but how much longer do we have to wait for Maya to appear? Do you think we'll ever see her again? I mean, she's already 28+ years old, and still "training" to be the Master. What use would there be for her in another game? All she can provide is a cameo, because now :phoenix: has :athena: assisting him, right? Maybe they might put her on trial for murder again. I dunno. I just wish they'd stick with the core characters, like many other franchises have done successfully. It's hard to love a "fresh face" when that face is the one that blatantly replaced the one you'd come to love. I mean, innovation and new ideas are great, but not in EVERY case. I wish Maya could go back to being Nick's assistant while Athena returns to Europe... Or at least make her a flippin' desk secretary! What are they doing making her the Master of Kurain? Does ANYONE here think that's the job she's suited for? Is there no life of free will for a Fey?

Though... to be honest, I'm actually kind of afraid the non-Takumi team might mess her up.
Still, anything's better than a flashback!

Maya's been my favorite character since 1-2... And Gumshoe is my second. Both missing in action............. :sadshoe: :sad-maya:
The execution rests, Your Honor.


Last edited by AceAssistant on Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AceAssistant wrote:
GRRRRRRRRRRR....... :dahlia: :kudo: :tigre: :grey: :starr: :yani-fiI meanan :lotta-angry: :whip: :pizza: :sahwit-bald: :headbangp: :toaster:
WHY HAVEN'T WE SEEN THESE TWO TOGETHER LATELY CAPCOM?
THAT SPINOFF GAME DOESN'T COUNT YOU KNOW.

Look, "The Great Ace Attorney" looks cool and all, but how much longer do we have to wait for Maya to appear? Do you think we'll ever see her again? I mean, she's already 28+ years old, and still "training" to be the Master. What use would there be for her in another game? All she can provide is a cameo, because now :phoenix: has :athena: assisting him, right? Maybe they might put her on trial for murder again. I dunno. I just wish they'd stick with the core characters, like many other franchises have done successfully. It's hard to love a "fresh face" when that face is the one that blatantly replaced the one you'd come to love. I mean, innovation and new ideas are great, but not in EVERY case. I wish Maya could go back to being Nick's assistant while Athena returns to Europe... Or at least make her a flippin' desk secretary! What are they doing making her the Master of Kurain? Does ANYONE here think that's the job she's suited for? Is there no life of free will for a Fey?

Though... to be honest, I'm actually kind of afraid the non-Takumi team might mess her up.
Still, anything's better than a flashback!

Maya's been my favorite character since 1-2... And Gumshoe is my second. Both missing in action............. :sadshoe: :sad-maya:


Hey there, and welcome to the club! :edgey:

Alright, to answer your questions:
Well, I figured that Athena was Apollo's asistant now, seeing as how they partnered up and everything for i guess more than half of Dual Destinies, Trucy seems to have permanently demoted from sidekick to side character now. And um, why wouldn't Maya be suited for the position of Master? :ron: She's doing a pretty good job if seven, eight-ish years are any testament. Anyhow, contrary to popular belief, she's quite mature. And lastly, if there is an AA6, I'm sure we'll see her again. She is the #1favorite female character, after all, so don't worry! :maya:

at the very least, we have pl vs aa, right? Heh, heh...heh... :larry:

Dai Gyakuten Saiban is likely a breather for writer and audience alike, and the wait will be worth it when we see Maya again, even if it's just a brief cameo(I'm holding on to the faint, faint hope that they'll hint that she started something with Phoenix and that we won't get a serving of the Status Quo is God) and who knows, maybe gummy will turn up too? (At least, take comfort in the knowledge that the rest of us fans are suffering too haha we're in this together! :basil: )
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Aquabreeze wrote:
I too, would like to request to join this club. I don't always ship, especially in anime, [desk slam] but when I do... [dramatic closeup] I go all out!


Hello and welcome to you too! :edgey:
Any day a new shipper joins the club is instantly made a great day :basil:
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Thanks for the welcome.

Like I said before, this is the only non-canon fictional pairing I support! :godot:
The execution rests, Your Honor.


Last edited by AceAssistant on Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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I just wish they'd stop swapping out the main characters. It was kind of hard for me to have any care about Athena or Blaquill. They're good at creating great characters, but development is key IMO. Nevertheless, the ONLY two indispensable main characters in the series are Phoenix and Maya. They brought back one, but is Phoenix really Phoenix without Maya?
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AceAssistant wrote:
I just wish they'd stop swapping out the main characters. It was kind of hard for me to have any care about Athena or Blaquill. They're good at creating great characters, but development is key IMO. Nevertheless, the ONLY two indispensable main characters in the series are Phoenix and Maya. They brought back one, but is Phoenix really Phoenix without Maya?


:ron: Mmm...to be fair, Phoenix and Maya have already had quite a lot of screentime. In fact, T &T was meant to be the last instalment in the series; that was all the screentime they were meant to have and the beauty of T&T 's ending was that from there, you could draw your own conclusions as to what Phoenix would do next, if he started a relationship with Maya or someone else, all that. I guess the writers don't want to ruin that open-endedness, plus, they'd probably get major upset from all the angry fangirls if they wrote Phoenix ending up with somebody they didn't like, yknow what i mean? ( on a totally unrelated note though, I'm pretty sure that the writers ship Narumayo nyahahahaha :D). Every game that Phoenix and Maya have together expands a little more on their relationship, even brings them closer than the last and as a result, they've gone from being awkward, grieving strangers on either side of a corpse (wow I'm dark today) in the first game to being super close friends and maybe more, by T&T / pl vs aa. If that isn't development, i dunno what is. Giving Phoenix and Maya more screentime would mean that their relationship would have to either progress in the name of more development (which some fans may not like ), or we'd have to watch their relationship kind of taxi in circles on the close-friends-but-maybe-more field. (...if that makes sense ... know what I'm trying to say here? :meekins: )

Point is, Phoenix and Maya's characters and relationship have been explored and and trying to keep them onscreen would be an obvious attempt in milking the cow too much and would mean r having lots of extra, filler stuff on their relationship. Which would be boring. Therefore, meet the new kids and explore their relationships with each other. They can never hope to have an interaction as unique and special as Phoenix and Maya, but then again, these are entirely new characters. Tada! New character-character interactions to love! (Or like, at the very least if you give them a chance)

And your last question: no, Phoenix isn't Phoenix without Maya. And he knows it.[id insert a certain important plvsaa screencap here but nahhh]
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AceAssistant wrote:
If it pleases the court, I request to join this group.
I confess, this is the only fictional non-canon pairing I support 100%! :D

Aquabreeze wrote:
I too, would like to request to join this club. I don't always ship, especially in anime, [desk slam] but when I do... [dramatic closeup] I go all out!


Welcome to the club! *showers more confetti*
:kissy:

AceAssistant wrote:
I just wish they'd stop swapping out the main characters. It was kind of hard for me to have any care about Athena or Blaquill. They're good at creating great characters, but development is key IMO. Nevertheless, the ONLY two indispensable main characters in the series are Phoenix and Maya. They brought back one, but is Phoenix really Phoenix without Maya?


LateSummer wrote:
:ron: Mmm...to be fair, Phoenix and Maya have already had quite a lot of screentime. ....Giving Phoenix and Maya more screentime would mean that their relationship would have to either progress in the name of more development (which some fans may not like ), or we'd have to watch their relationship kind of taxi in circles on the close-friends-but-maybe-more field. (...if that makes sense ... know what I'm trying to say here? :meekins: )

Point is, Phoenix and Maya's characters and relationship have been explored and and trying to keep them onscreen would be an obvious attempt in milking the cow too much and would mean r having lots of extra, filler stuff on their relationship. Which would be boring. Therefore, meet the new kids and explore their relationships with each other. They can never hope to have an interaction as unique and special as Phoenix and Maya, but then again, these are entirely new characters. Tada! New character-character interactions to love! (Or like, at the very least if you give them a chance)


Yeah well that's that old thing... Takumi meant to end the ENTIRE cast including Phoenix after GS3 for a REASON. It's only Capcom who unwisely forced him to include Phoenix in GS4.
So yeah, people feel a lack when Maya's conveniently 'not there' for years on end. Her prolonged absence itself is a kind of unexplained negative character development, which has NOT been resolved, even though it could be very easily with little 'screentime'. Geez, if they wanted to move her out of the way for a 'new character' in GS5, they could have her there at the beginning like she'd been there in the time between games, and then have to leave early on for some kind of emergency Master business or whatever the heck she's doing.

A problem with this series is that to extend it past its natural end for that cast in GS3 they think they can use the same old formulas over and over again with novel variations, (e.g. magical orphan girl in training with magical object and problematic family past!) when the initial cast were characters, not a formula. It wouldn't be as jarring if it was indeed an entirely new cast, because it wouldn't mess with continuity of characterisation with past games and we wouldn't compare them as much.
Takumi indicated he was surprised they put Phoenix back as 'main lawyer' in GS5... I suppose he would have just made him leave to his own life offscreen or something and focus on Apollo, maybe a short cameo. Of course that would have meant even less resolution for Phoenix's character and bad for series marketing.
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*bump*

Heyy guys :edgey: just a reminder that Narumayo Observance Week is coming!!

Also, Narumayo seems to have gained in the shipper department, there's been quite a bit in the Narumayo tag on tumblr, and a rise in the number of fics on Ao3 recently! Hoorayyy!!! *throws confetti*
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LateSummer wrote:
*bump*

Heyy guys :edgey: just a reminder that Narumayo Observance Week is coming!!

Also, Narumayo seems to have gained in the shipper department, there's been quite a bit in the Narumayo tag on tumblr, and a rise in the number of fics on Ao3 recently! Hoorayyy!!! *throws confetti*



Oh noooo I've forgotten when that one is.
But Phoenix/Maya Day is September 5!
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icer wrote:
LateSummer wrote:
*bump*

Heyy guys :edgey: just a reminder that Narumayo Observance Week is coming!!

Also, Narumayo seems to have gained in the shipper department, there's been quite a bit in the Narumayo tag on tumblr, and a rise in the number of fics on Ao3 recently! Hoorayyy!!! *throws confetti*



Oh noooo I've forgotten when that one is.
But Phoenix/Maya Day is September 5!


Narumayo week is supposed to be the week when Reunion, and Turnabout (the shippiest case, for Narumayo, apparently) took place. Whiiiich means it started on the 16th of June and will end on the 23rd, I think. I guess that means even I forgot about it on the day it started :sillytrucy:

Now that it's Narumayo week, what do we do now? :ron:
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