Hobohodo Rocks, Naruhudo Doesn't.

That was my opinion at the end of 4-4.

In which they SPOILED Gumshoe. COMPLETELY.

Yeah, Apollo and Trucy maybe very surprised when they first learn the fact, but won't they become very happy later? Just leaving them along can never help them to find out the relationship between Apollo and Trucy and Thalassa.

Do you really think he had no choice but forging the evidence? To be honest, he didn't need to do that if he just want himself getting off the hook, but the thump would be required if he wanna send Gavin into jail. Compared with Apollo's feeling and future, he thought his own revenge was more important. It was natural...he didn't really know the boy very well, he maybe dislike Apollo somehow because he was Kristoph's pupil. But still, I don't agree with the idea that he cares about Polly. He used the boy in 4-1, 4-2 and 4-4...I mean, come on.

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It was more about personal revenge.
It was... justice for all.

Remember 2-4?

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I think he did have to forge that evidence. Kristoph was a legitmately dangerous person out of prison, and needed to be put away. Also, there's no way to prove the card is fake and no way to connect Apollo to the forgery if that were revealed.

Remember SL-9?



How can? The card can be proved to be fake easily, if you exam the blood on it.

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It would be Zak's blood on the card. I think Phoenix forged it while at the actual crime scene, before the police arrived.

The difference is in most of those cases, Phoenix had done pretty much all the deducing and puzzle solving up until a certain point, where he's caught in a situation that he can't find a way to turnaround, until Mia, Maya, Edgeworth or Larry popped in to help him.

Apollo meanwhile, spends almost the entire time being told what to do (or having done for him) by Trucy, Phoenix, Kristoph and Klavier. When I played his cases, it felt more like I was more of the assisstant then the lawyer.

Anyway, back to the topic; no I don't like Apollo because he's not Phoenix, I don't like him in spite of that. He's hollow, generic kid who just walked into court one day, said he was a lawyer, and that's it. He has no real background, motitvation, depth or anything. A true example of a cardboard cutout. People seem to desperatly cling to him with the high hopes that future games will bring out more potential for him, but considering the "brilliant" writers who wrote cases like 4-3 and 4-4, I can't say I'm highly opptimistic.

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And then hid it somewhere and told Trucy about the place?

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That was not on topic.
Where would he get the ace, though? Considering there are only two decks--the back would have to be the wrong color.
Unless he really did happen to have an "ace up his sleeve"... oO

Edit: Okay that wasn't really on topic either, was it.
On topic--
I don't dislike Apollo. The only reason I'd like playing as Phoenix over Apollo is that I'm more used to the way Phoenix thinks.

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There just might be other decks of cards in a cupboard or anything there.

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It'd be impossible for him to hide evidence so easily when apparently he was their best suspect.
DarkWobuffet basically covered the argument I was going to make pretty well. I liked some of Apollo's lines, but I feel like he's a little hollow; he's only involved because he "wants there to be justice"...or something.

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Well, if Phoenix is Apollo's 'mentor', what's the hardest lesson Phoenix ever had to learn which cost him his career? Don't present weird evidence handed to you at the last minute by some strange girl. Apollo will never, ever forget this 'lesson'. The whole case is symbolic, and the forged evidence is supposed to shock the player.

Does he care about Apollo? I don't think he doesn't care or sees him only as a tool, but he certainly doesn't seem to have a very high opinion of him or really consider him 'family' other than the obvious biological connection. And I don't think that's unreasonable. He's not going to automatically trust Kristoph's student, is he? It's got to be annoying and frustrating to Phoenix that he is unable to execute his plans due to the unfair lack of his badge and has to delegate it to Apollo due to an injustice rather than lack of his own competence. I think it was Thalassa who didn't want them to know they're siblings.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Apollo is generic and uncompelling. He lacks the slight idealistic streak in Phoenix and Mia of undying belief in their client [and Phoenix's dedication to his friends] and has no interesting alternative to replace it. Why is he a lawyer? We don't know. It just kind of seemed like a good career option at the time? By contrast, Phoenix and Mia were highly driven people who had compelling backstories to their motivations to become a defense attorney. Sure, boring Apollo may be a more realistic take on a law career, but this is not interesting. It's why we don't have games like 'Walmart: Shelf Stacker' or 'McDonalds: Would You like Fries With That?'. As for any development during the game, Apollo only states at the end "Yeah, I think I'll keep doing this defense attorney thing for a while." Boring and empty.

Way too often Apollo is just the generic avatar on the screen. And Phoenix is the one pulling the strings (from the odd perspective the writers allow) and is still the initiative to solve cases and real focus of the game. It's more like Apollo aka the player is a jurist than a defense attorney, for Phoenix on trial.

"But Apollo Needs Time To Develop!" people cry. Uh, sorry. He had a whole game to himself to develop. Phoenix and even Mia were infinitely more compelling and interesting characters by the end of game 1. [Arguably, Phoenix is a more compelling character in game 4 too.]

Now, I've got to admit.. Apollo and Phoenix together are kind of to the detriment of each other. They should have totally separate cases/games etc where they only collude briefly. I'm not sure how they could handle it if Phoenix is Apollo's 'mentor' aka Mia. Thing is, Mia as mentor never hogged all the spotlight from Phoenix, but the second Phoenix turns up in 'Apollo's' game to mentor Apollo, well, I'm sorry, you have somebody who is automatically more compelling than your 'main' character here. (And no, I refuse to take 'degrade or corrupt Phoenix further so we like him less than Apollo' as a viable option to rectify this. ;_;)

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Apollo is a lot more driven than Phoenix. Compare his reaction to getting defend Wocky to Phoenix having to be dragged out for virtually every case.

^Driven to act like a standard legal professional, maybe.
Phoenix although somewhat apathetic about taking new cases is very driven by his somewhat idealistic principles and his dedication to his friends. He's so driven by his determination to help Edgeworth he actually goes through law school to do so. Even by 1-1, he's telling us he wants to be a lawyer for the somewhat idealistic reason that he wants to help people in trouble with no-one on their side. He's driven by his belief in his client and his loyalty to his friends - Larry, Maya, Edgeworth, Iris...
Apollo lacks this idealism and dedication as a driving force and it gets replaced with, well, nothing. (In fact he just kind of does what other people tell him for seemingly little principled reason at all)

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Sorry for repeating myself, but I just hope Apollo is developed more in the next game. Indeed, we don't know much about Apollo or why he is a lawyer. I didnt hate him at all, but even Phoenix seemed to have more story than him and Phoenix was supposed to be a side character.

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You said it.
What I really liked about GS1 was that the cases were really something. Not just defending some boring defendant that nobody gives a damn. 1-2, 1-5, just great. And the main thing: It was focused on Edgesworth and Phoenix (and Larry), how did they become friends, why lawyer, Edgesworth's past. In Apollo Justice, the whole game is focudes on how Phoenix lost his Badge, and Phoenix overall. With Apollo, you just solve those cases knowing nothing about him excactly. Some personality to Apollo, and defendants. 4-2, 4-3, 4-4, the defendats were either mute or just unkown. And more interacting with the defendants. Sometimes you talked to them once, or twice, and yet they don't even tell what really happened. When you don't even know them, why to care if they are found guilty? What I really want about GS5 is lots and lots of Apollo, Trucy, or even some old characters, but only as small side-characters. And interesting cases, where you actually care about the defendants.

I would like to see this, along with no mention of his catchphrase "Here comes Justice" (which is the cheesiest line ever to appear in an Ace Attorney game....hell, it's the cheesiest thing in any game I've ever played - and that includes the DK Rap).

Surely its no more cheesy than making puns out of Phoenix's surname?
I liked the DK Rap :o
Take it to the fridge :D Walnuts, peanuts and pineapple smells :D

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Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however....

The main problem here is patience. You all lack it because you ain't giving Apollo room to grow. At least wait until AJ 2 before you allow the new series to give an impact on yourselves. Sequels are usually there to improve on previous story lines, which is what JFA and TAT did to PW1.

As for me, I have an open mind. I like most characters in the game series, if not all. The only ones I hate are Sal and Marvin, but that's not really the point. I look at the positive sides of each character, even the ones I do hate. What I do like about Sal is his stereotypical geekness and Marvin has the fat humor, those I find funny. When I look at Apollo, I see a passionate, young man who just really wants to learn more about the legal world around him.

Now how would you feel if you were criticized for your personality or whatever? It would probably be a downer for you. Well that is what you are all doing to these characters. Would you like to be called an idiot? How about being told that you may whine too much? You wouldn't like it, I wouldn't, nobody would. Sure the AA characters are entirely fictional, but at least give this some thought.

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I got the impression that most people who have contributed to this thread have pretty much said that they want to see Apollo grow in the next game, because he wasn't given the chance to in AJ.

Although, I have to say, I thoroughly enjoyed PW1 and because of that, I wanted to play the second one. If I wasn't impressed by the first game, I doubt that I would have given the second one a chance. :p Not that I'm not going to give the next game a chance - I'm looking forward to seeing Apollo actually have a personality and actually do something other than stand there and point. :p

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I love Apollo's catchphrase because it's cheesy. It suits him.

Yeah, I always thought Apollo was supposed to be seen as "Grumpy old guy out of touch with the hip cool times despite being 22" kind of person.

Indeed.
When I first heard about Apollo justice, I was like, WTF!
But now, I'm o.k with it. I did do like lawyer phoenix better than Apollo
and Hobo Phoenix
Plus, if Apollo faced off against Fransiska, Godot, or GS1 Edgeworth they would kick his ass to New York, at least when he was 22.

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Not to mention if Apollo ever tried using that percieve system against Edgeworth, Franziska, Godot or Manfred, he'd be laughed out of the courtroom faster then you can say "GOTCHA!".

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Damn straight

Apollo is personally my favorite character. That's means I'm not a hater! Yay!

I don't think people dislike Apollo because he's not Phoenix, but because they were disappointed with his game, in the fact that we were just tossed on a curb 7 years later!

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Phoenix cross-examined a parrot against Von Karma. Granted, that was something that Von Karma inadvertently set himself up for, but still...

I agree. As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to add that I view AJ as "Phoenix Wright 4". Because although we look through the eyes of Apollo Justice, the story truly belongs to Nick, I believe.

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