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Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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I never could understand one think - How was Kristoph convicted for the murder of Shadi Smith?

I don't know if I didn't pay attention, but the facts proven were

  • The cards were swapped after the murder.
  • The bottles were swapped the murder.
  • Kristoph was aware of the swapped card having blue deck and of the victim's bald head.
  • Kristoph was present at the scene of a crime.

It all sound pretty circumstantial to me... And Kristoph wouldn't leave his prints on the scene of a crime.
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It was the fact Kristoph knew about the missing Ace. That piece of forged evidence. It was something that only the killer would know about. Kristoph cracked in disbelief when he saw it indicating that he knew about it.
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Re: Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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......I still don't see it as a "proof". It does make him suspicious, but...

Not to mention it was finding the swapped murder weapon and a missing card that finished the trial.
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Sligneris wrote:
......I still don't see it as a "proof". It does make him suspicious, but...

Not to mention it was finding the swapped murder weapon and a missing card that finished the trial.


It's knowledge only the killer could know.
I'd need to replay it to get exactly how he reveals it in quotes but that's the general gist of it. He cracks and says something like "You can't have that! It can't exist that's impossible!" and then Phoenix reveals the significance of the card which the court didn't know about before.
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If I recall correctly, since the judge (and Apollo) didn't know that the card was forged, it was considered valid evidence, which proved that the victim was facing the secret passage when he was killed, which proved that the secret passage was open, meaning the cupboard was blocking the window, meaning Kristoph couldn't have seen Shadi's head through the window unlike what he claimed, so the only way he could have known was by being in the room.
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That seemed to be correct, actually... Hm. But the trial still continued. Also, the fact he was in the room does not have to necessarily mean he was the murderer...
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The trial continued because there was still the issue of Phoenix's fingerprints on the murder weapon, I think. Once it was proven that the bottles had been swapped, there wasn't any reason to suspect Phoenix anymore.

Sure, it's not 100% definite proof that Kristoph did it, but why else would he be in the room? And who else could have done it if it wasn't Kristoph? Plus I think the only way he could enter the room without being seen, is through the secret passage, which is where the killer came from.
Basically I don't see what lies Kristoph could come up with to justify his presence in the room.
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Jozerick wrote:
The trial continued because there was still the issue of Phoenix's fingerprints on the murder weapon, I think. Once it was proven that the bottles had been swapped, there wasn't any reason to suspect Phoenix anymore.

Sure, it's not 100% definite proof that Kristoph did it, but why else would he be in the room? And who else could have done it if it wasn't Kristoph? Plus I think the only way he could enter the room without being seen, is through the secret passage, which is where the killer came from.
Basically I don't see what lies Kristoph could come up with to justify his presence in the room.


It probably would have become worse for him once they did a little background search under further investigation and found out Kristoph actually was connected to Shadi Smith from a while ago.
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Pierre wrote:
Jozerick wrote:
The trial continued because there was still the issue of Phoenix's fingerprints on the murder weapon, I think. Once it was proven that the bottles had been swapped, there wasn't any reason to suspect Phoenix anymore.

Sure, it's not 100% definite proof that Kristoph did it, but why else would he be in the room? And who else could have done it if it wasn't Kristoph? Plus I think the only way he could enter the room without being seen, is through the secret passage, which is where the killer came from.
Basically I don't see what lies Kristoph could come up with to justify his presence in the room.


It probably would have become worse for him once they did a little background search under further investigation and found out Kristoph actually was connected to Shadi Smith from a while ago.


If they did that, they would also find out about the victim's true identity. I wonder if Kristoph's sentence would be any different if they actually did that.

And whether Kristoph did it or not, there's no doubt in my mind he did. Not only did he have the opportunity, but he also had the motive.
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"Whether he did it or not", was that ever of any question? He definitely did it; he admitted.
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Cravat of Doom wrote:
"Whether he did it or not", was that ever of any question? He definitely did it; he admitted.



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Oopsie. It's not like I had the intention of questioning his guilt.




But wait, we were talking about the swapped card, weren't we? Well, the moment Kristoph stated the bloody ace was a fraudulent piece of evidence and Phoenix raised the question: "How do you know that?" has gave him away, because only the killer could have known about a blood-stained card. At the time of the killing, Phoenix was making a call on the first floor, while Olga was unconscious, so, they couldn't possibly know about it. This also gives away the fact that the bloody ace was forged (I know it's been confirmed after the verdict, but I'm just pointing it out anyway). But I wonder...

Would Phoenix still be found innocent had the forged bloody ace not been presented to court at all?

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Damarus wrote:
Cravat of Doom wrote:
"Whether he did it or not", was that ever of any question? He definitely did it; he admitted.



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Oopsie. It's not like I had the intention of questioning his guilt.




But wait, we were talking about the swapped card, weren't we? Well, the moment Kristoph stated the bloody ace was a fraudulent piece of evidence and Phoenix raised the question: "How do you know that?" has gave him away, because only the killer could have known about a blood-stained card. At the time of the killing, Phoenix was making a call on the first floor, while Olga was unconscious, so, they couldn't possibly know about it. This also gives away the fact that the bloody ace was forged (I know it's been confirmed after the verdict, but I'm just pointing it out anyway). But I wonder...

Would Phoenix still be found innocent had the forged bloody ace not been presented to court at all?


Probably not, the big question was "Should the system be so reliant on 'decisive' evidence?"
Despite the fact everybody in court knew it, there wasn't enough evidence to prove it on it's own.
That's why Phoenix had to make use of the forgery, even if it wasn't being used as decisive evidence, Kristoph's response to it was as good as an admission of guilt.
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Re: Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
Damarus wrote:
Cravat of Doom wrote:
"Whether he did it or not", was that ever of any question? He definitely did it; he admitted.



Image

Oopsie. It's not like I had the intention of questioning his guilt.




But wait, we were talking about the swapped card, weren't we? Well, the moment Kristoph stated the bloody ace was a fraudulent piece of evidence and Phoenix raised the question: "How do you know that?" has gave him away, because only the killer could have known about a blood-stained card. At the time of the killing, Phoenix was making a call on the first floor, while Olga was unconscious, so, they couldn't possibly know about it. This also gives away the fact that the bloody ace was forged (I know it's been confirmed after the verdict, but I'm just pointing it out anyway). But I wonder...

Would Phoenix still be found innocent had the forged bloody ace not been presented to court at all?


Probably not, the big question was "Should the system be so reliant on 'decisive' evidence?"
Despite the fact everybody in court knew it, there wasn't enough evidence to prove it on it's own.
That's why Phoenix had to make use of the forgery, even if it wasn't being used as decisive evidence, Kristoph's response to it was as good as an admission of guilt.


It is true that decisive evidence can be essential to determine someone's guilt, but it's not always the best option to rely on decisive evidence alone. Sometimes, a little common sense can be a better option.
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Re: Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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Common sense would have declared most of Wright's clients guilty from the start.
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Sligneris wrote:
Common sense would have declared most of Wright's clients guilty from the start.


Actually, common sense would've gotten most of them acquitted pretty easily. Currently recording Case 2-1 for my Let's Play and I want to yell "Mistrial!" every five minutes, because none of the evidence presented actually works out. I think I have a longer list of its problems listed in a different thread.
Really, even for an introductory case, this was a bad one.

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CatMuto wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
Common sense would have declared most of Wright's clients guilty from the start.


Actually, common sense would've gotten most of them acquitted pretty easily. Currently recording Case 2-1 for my Let's Play and I want to yell "Mistrial!" every five minutes, because none of the evidence presented actually works out. I think I have a longer list of its problems listed in a different thread.
Really, even for an introductory case, this was a bad one.

C-A


This is basically the point of Phoenix's goal in the game. He's a wise experienced lawyer, seen a fair bit in his time and notes the problem with the need for decisive evidence. Hence why he tries to bring about a change to it.
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Actually, it's not the legal system that needs a change, the people just need to learn to use their brain and logic.

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Re: Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
Actually, it's not the legal system that needs a change, the people just need to learn to use their brain and logic.

C-A


XD Nope, I still think your expectations of the AA games is unrealistic and would produce results detrimental to many people's enjoyment of the series.
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Re: Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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I just do not see what the fun is in a game where Chain of Custody, Conflict of Interest or simple "Lawyers do not have the job of investigating a crime scene" seem to be getting a dump taken on them. I can fully understand that AA games are made to appeal to the wider audience, as not every player will have studied anything about law - but even a simple amateur in terms of law would know a few things.

ie. You do not remove something from a crime scene.

C-A
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I don't mind the Gumshoe-level and investigation-level of incompetence.

I mind 2-1 and 4-3 level of incompetence.
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CatMuto wrote:
I just do not see what the fun is in a game where Chain of Custody, Conflict of Interest or simple "Lawyers do not have the job of investigating a crime scene" seem to be getting a dump taken on them. I can fully understand that AA games are made to appeal to the wider audience, as not every player will have studied anything about law - but even a simple amateur in terms of law would know a few things.

ie. You do not remove something from a crime scene.

C-A


Your argument lies upon the assumption that Ace Attorney Law is the same as most Westernised Law, and that's where everything falls apart as we don't know jack about the explicit rules of Ace Attorneyverse Law.
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I don't think it's a problem that the rules of the GS courts are different than reality (for the most part-- there's the occasional spot where it's taken too far). The appeal in the games is kind of based around the fact that the system is shit, and there's corruption up the wazoo. Forget DD, the entire franchise is The Dark Age of the Law. But that's why it's fun.

What's particularly interesting is that for the most part, the real killers confess before the defendant's verdict. I don't think we've ever seen a case where the culprit is found without confessing. I'm sure if we examine it enough, we'll find that much of the evidence in the cases is circumstantial and the only reason our defendants get off is due to the real criminal's confession. Perhaps we should start a thread for that.

So while it's extremely questionable of Phoenix to present forged evidence and it probably shouldn't have been done, Kristoph's confession is what seals the deal. If Gavin continued to maintain innocence, I'm sure the trial would have had a different outcome.

Mid-trial confessions are pretty important in these games.
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Actually, I haven't played/re-played 4-1 in quite some time, but is it not so that Kristoph doesn't actually say that he killed Shadi? I mean, I think it was even mentioned in the first post, he doesn't really confess, it's just circumstantial words and "evidence" that gets him thrown into jail.

Also, I cannot say that the AA games, until AJ I guess, can really count as being "corrupt". It never really felt corrupt, it just felt like it made no sense. Nothing was really corrupt, except maybe for Gant - but then, that is one case that randomly throws real-life law pieces into it, making the game feel awkward with this random ass restriction suddenly put onto us that had no actualy existence in the cases preceeding or following it. (It's like contempt of court in 1-4, it's mentioned as an actual threat in that case, but never in any other)

C-A
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CatMuto wrote:
Actually, I haven't played/re-played 4-1 in quite some time, but is it not so that Kristoph doesn't actually say that he killed Shadi? I mean, I think it was even mentioned in the first post, he doesn't really confess, it's just circumstantial words and "evidence" that gets him thrown into jail.

Also, I cannot say that the AA games, until AJ I guess, can really count as being "corrupt". It never really felt corrupt, it just felt like it made no sense. Nothing was really corrupt, except maybe for Gant - but then, that is one case that randomly throws real-life law pieces into it, making the game feel awkward with this random ass restriction suddenly put onto us that had no actualy existence in the cases preceeding or following it. (It's like contempt of court in 1-4, it's mentioned as an actual threat in that case, but never in any other)

C-A


Really? Gant's corruption sort of extends to Lana as well since she co-operated. Then we have Von Karma, killing a rival and forging evidence throughout his career to ensure victory. Same case we have Robert Hammond encouraging a false-plead of insanity to get his client off the hook. Von Karma steals evidence from an Evidence locker. Throughout the first game there's rumours of Edgeworth using the same methods. Redd White also hints at having numerous connections throughout the courts.

Then we get to JFA where we deal with a lawyer actually being blackmailed into getting a verdict and taking cases.

Then we move onto T&T where we have a prosecutor straight up murder someone.

It's another big mystery of GS5...the Dark Age of the Law has been around for AGES but apparently all that stuff before Phoenix's disbarment didn't mean a thing.
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Re: Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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Pierre wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Actually, I haven't played/re-played 4-1 in quite some time, but is it not so that Kristoph doesn't actually say that he killed Shadi? I mean, I think it was even mentioned in the first post, he doesn't really confess, it's just circumstantial words and "evidence" that gets him thrown into jail.

Also, I cannot say that the AA games, until AJ I guess, can really count as being "corrupt". It never really felt corrupt, it just felt like it made no sense. Nothing was really corrupt, except maybe for Gant - but then, that is one case that randomly throws real-life law pieces into it, making the game feel awkward with this random ass restriction suddenly put onto us that had no actualy existence in the cases preceeding or following it. (It's like contempt of court in 1-4, it's mentioned as an actual threat in that case, but never in any other)

C-A


Really? Gant's corruption sort of extends to Lana as well since she co-operated. Then we have Von Karma, killing a rival and forging evidence throughout his career to ensure victory. Same case we have Robert Hammond encouraging a false-plead of insanity to get his client off the hook. Von Karma steals evidence from an Evidence locker. Throughout the first game there's rumours of Edgeworth using the same methods. Redd White also hints at having numerous connections throughout the courts.

Then we get to JFA where we deal with a lawyer actually being blackmailed into getting a verdict and taking cases.

Then we move onto T&T where we have a prosecutor straight up murder someone.

It's another big mystery of GS5...the Dark Age of the Law has been around for AGES but apparently all that stuff before Phoenix's disbarment didn't mean a thing.



Do you think perhaps this Dark Age of the Law might be a thing of the past in GS6 or do you believe it will go on? (That is, if we're assuming there will be a GS6)
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Re: Kristoph's GuiltTopic%20Title
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This is my theory regarding the Dark Age of the Law. I think it explains pretty nicely the whole deal with it, as well as the stuff about these previous incidents.
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Sligneris wrote:
This is my theory regarding the Dark Age of the Law. I think it explains pretty nicely the whole deal with it, as well as the stuff about these previous incidents.



Most interesting. I couldn't concur more with the quote on your linked post.
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:kristoph: :I am not the murderer!

MY krissy just couldn't.

:klavier: :Stop seeing him as innocent ana

but but i TT
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