It seems Nick wasn't abducted by aliens afterall.

To be more serious, I've pretty much worked out that Phoenix is still the same guy; he hasn't done a U-turn like some people consider him to have done. But first, to state the obvious his fashon sense has changed and his moral compass has changed too. That, there can be no debate about. On the fashon front, it looks like he's completely lost interest about how he looks, but we can still tell it's him underneath. And the argument about whether his moral compass skewed too much has been done in other topics, so I won't talk about it here.

The main thing I wanted to address was that many people have said something to the effect of 'Phoenix isn't acting how he really would, he's never been like this.' I don't agree with that statement. When you look back at Nick's internal monologue, you see him make fun of anyone he doesn't like. And as the protragonist, and under the fierce odds he faces we can forgive him, and laugh at it. Especially as he doesn't SAY it out loud. (He'd be pummeled to death if he did)

But when you look at the things he says now, they're JUST LIKE what he said in his thoughts. He can't be bothered to keep it inside, and he doesn't think it's neccisary to either. When you lose the job you hold dear and have even worse money constraints (Looking after someone is a huge financial burden.) you probably would say what you really thought rather than keep it to yourself.

I know this topic may seem a bit redundant, but I just don't see how people can say he's acting completely differently to the way he used to be, when he used to think similar things in the past. I can look back on his previous thoughts and say 'Actually, that was a bit harsh of him; the bellboy doesn't deserve all the flak he gets' (Although thats just an example, since I do find the bellboy aggrivating XD). I suppose its a roundabout way of saying that I think his characterisation in GS4 is more of a believable development than people give it credit for. Whether he'd forge evidence after believing in truth for so long is a different can of worms alltogether :D

---

The biggest example of how he didn't really change all that much is the ending to 1-2. He didn't even technically win that trial. He BLACKMAILED (or rather, Mia did, while he did nothing to stop it. It's about just as bad, IMHO) Redd White in admitting he killed Mia. Quite frankly, if that ain't bad...

---

He's certainly changed some, but after seven years and what he went through, I can see how it happened. Also, justice is a fickle thing in the PW world. Hell, I still have issues with how Phoenix won several of his cases, like 3.3 for example, and I've never seen any court so biased against the defense. Still fun though!

---

I suppose Nick has gotten a bit more "free-spirited" but since he is now verbalizing what he would've normally kept to himself, it makes me wonder what he's thinking now. But still, he acts that way around Minuki.

In short--Nick isn't exactly the paragon role-model.

<-- NOW THIS is a role-model! *shot repeatedly by mob *

---

Hey Gerk, I've been saying this for weeks! :D

To be honest, I've always believed that when he wasn't wearing his suit to court, Phoenix was the sort of guy who lounged around his cheap apartment eating cheetos or something. As far as we know, he doesn't have much of a social life. Outside of Maya and Pearl, who see him on and off, his only constant friend seems to be Larry, but they kind of imply even they don't see each other for weeks at a time. So what does Phoenix do off screen? Cheap beer and discovery channel, that was my guess!

Looking at it now, seems I wasn't too far off :D

---

Plus, he's got the reputation of a drunk...

---

Out of curiosity, is that fan speculation or is there something in the game that indicates that? I ask because its not the first time I've heard that, but I don't recall it being mentioned in the game.

---

I think it comes from the joke that the series creator, Takumi, is rumored to be a heavy drinker. He did say in an interview that "I'd probably be a better driver drunk than sober." And there are several little doodles on the Japanese sites of him drinking. There's also the New Years art of Phoenix sloshed from the Naruhodo Gyakuten series of illustrations.

http://gyakusai.magical-art.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_itemId=571

Then there's those of us who think of Hobohodo's new love of "grape juice" that comes in tall glass bottles to be the Nintendo equivalent of "lol boozer."

Though on the subject, character artist Suekane said she thought he would prefer Japanese sake to beer, and mostly drinks diet cola. Her idea of his day off was:

Spacing out all morning
Eating lunch
Watching TV until evening
Eating dinner
Watching TV
Bath
Bed

(Unless someone invites him out)

I think she was also the first one to suggest that Phoenix looks best in a hoodie (long before GS4 was being made).

---

It's not entirely unreasonable. Phoenix is a straight-up punk. With as much crap as he's been through he deserves a little leverage.

---

I know you have Croiky, it's just it was only yesterday when the idea dawned through my silly little skull :3 Also, thank you for adding the spoiler thing to my post, you're a lifesaver!~

Before I talk about other peoples posts, I'm going to make a list of all the times he used non-standard methods Pre-GS4.
1)1-2: The whole blackmailing the blackmailer bit (Thanks for the reminder Hatman). While you can rationalise it, that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. In fact, that's true for the whole list.
2)1-3 Condemning Oldbag: It was pretty obvious Oldbag couldn't do it from the start, it was playing for time. Which isn't really fair, no matter how annoying the witness is.
3)1-4: Cross Examining Polly. I know this doesn't sound like much of a cover up, but it was when you think about it. The parrot could've been taught to say ANYTHING you liked, meaning it isn't really evidence. At least, not more than circumstantial.
4)1-5: Evidence law mixup: He steals evidence from Gants locker and then uses the law to get away with it... just like Gant has. Irony considering GS4 innit? :D
5)2-2: Doctor Hotti's evidence. Can you really get evidence from a deluded patient and use it in court? I don't really think it'd be admissable as real evidence, although it did provoke Ini into saying about the night of the crash.
6)2-4: Manipulating Shelly. We have no idea whether the tape contains the crime or not, and even if it does it shouldn't officially affect the case. All it does is give Matt a huge reason to admit to his crime.
6)3-2: Ron gets away with it: Nick uses Double Jeapody to get Ron off the hook (Although Atmey probably considered this when he did his plan in the first place, since he's an all or nothing type of guy). But Ron did steal that stuff, and has gotten wealthy by it. (Thanks to Croik for this one)
7)3-3: Furio's Poison. Once again, Nick uses the defendants lack of forsight into catching him. Considering the entire court system in AA runs on evidence, it's extremly lucky for Nick to get multiple defendants to admit to what they did. :P (Thanks to mia-fey)

So thats at least seven ways where he's bent the rules. Forging evidence isn't something that he did before, I admit, but when you look at it it's only a bit further down the slippery slope.


Well, we can't be perfect can we? Besides, he doesn't actually show the other side of his nature when Trucy is around, it's only when she's not there.

From what we can see of his actions around her, he's really caring :3 And theres nothing to say he's thinking worse things than before, just that he's verbalising them. When you look at the Mason system you notice that he's on his best behavior for the Jurors ^_^


And yet, when you think about it Trucy has helped him. If he'd have been left on his own, I really doubt he'd have the drive to do anything with his life. He'd be depressed, and I bet he would've become a real Hobo. But by adopting Trucy, not only has he got someone to care for and look after, but it gives him more reason to actually work to earn the money for them to live on. If anything, Trucy was the catalyst to his turnabout (In a good way) :)

Also, when you look at the interactions between him and Apollo I've found that Nick respects him. It wasn't just his bracelet that Phoenix needed, he needed an idealist who'd put Justice in front of loyalty and I have the feeling Nick likes that in a person. The feelings may not be the same the other way around tho :D

---

Last edited by Gerkuman on Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

I think this is the only point I disagree with you on.



And I've got another for your list - in 3-2, Phoenix isn't bothered by the fact that he gets Ron acquitted for even the crimes he DID commit. Of course, it wasn't his intention to let a guilty man go free, but once it happened, he wasn't exactly upset by it. I think little things like that help show it isn't necessarly the law itself that Phoenix has an interest in, but simply helping people. He had no personal stake in The Tear of Emanon - it made no difference to him if the man who ACTUALLY stole it never went to jail, as long as no one got hurt.

---

I agree mostly with the points brought up here, and they put the character of Phoenix Wright in a much more complex light than he appears to most players. He's not the clean record type, doesn't attend to any extracurricular activities (from what is presented to us in GS1 to 3. We don't know what happens between the cases, do we? A circus visit, alright, however with two teenagers that are constantly around his office either way) and may they just be a semi-proper social life or additional studies, abroad for instance.

Croik brings up a very good point with 3-2. I believe that law doesn't necessarily equal justice, that's a point that Phoenix stretches as well as far as I know. By helping Ron get an acquittal via double jeopardy (although that is law, technically), he didn't mean for a guy he truly believed to simply have gotten blackmailed into these crimes to be punished. Pedagogically useful PW games - get to the source of things! (Aha! Aha! Aha! Aha!)

Edit: I forgot! Remember P's background. He didn't study law from the beginning, he enrolled in Art.

Firstly, thankyou for your your contribution to the list Croik, hopefully we can all find some more instances of Nick not following the rules. Secondly, I suppose I was going to make a mistake like that given that I haven't played the game myself ^_^;; It certainly gives more ideas for us to think about.

For instance, I personally think that Trucy has learnt from Nick and vice versa. If you look at, Regina for example you can see the way she was brought up made her see nothing wrong with dating puppets, owning a lion or that people turn into stars. In the same way, Trucy's upbringing has gotten her used to a different viewpoint to most people.

Now, she's adopted by Nick who's now getting a skewed sense of morals. We can see that his ideals, or his versions of them anyway are rubbing off on her, and without someone on his shoulder to say 'You shouldn't do this Nick' like Edgey, Maya or even the Judge he had no-one to keep him in check. (I mean, he dreamt about the Judge twice, he must have some influence on his life; even as a personification XD)

---

The irony is that the person who DIDN'T study ended up in art (Larry), the artist became a defense attorney (Phoenix) and the defense attorney became a prosecutor (Edgeworth).

Makes for a quite interesting dynamic.

---

I actually always thought that Phoenix only seemed different because he has a different outfit. But hey, I also think he always wore that sweater out of court...

---

I found a new piece of evidence for the list, and it's a doozy. Seriously, it'd be enough to lose him his badge:

3-2:Ommision saves case. Nick summarises the blackmail letter as 'Send $1000' so no-one checks the letter itself. If only they did. It really should be summarised 'Send $1000 cos I know your secret identity'. That would've been enough to shut the case, so Nick's lie by ommision has saved a guilty man. That's just wrong.

That's my conclusive evidence, enough to turn even the most ardent Phoenix Apologist around. He bent the rules to serve justice, and after being tipped off the edge by the wrongful accusation of fabricating evidence, took the next step down the line and did what Gant did 10 years before... fabricated evidence himself.

Thats what makes Apollo so refreshing. He cares more about truth than Nick did. Nick used tricks, and omissions to find the truth, while Polly stands for Justice, in methods and verdicts. The prosecution rests. :)

---

I wouldn't say that Apollo cares more about the truth than Phoenix - I think Apollo cares more about *law*. Phoenix has always cared most about helping innocent people, but Apollo seems to honestly care about courtroom procedure, and studying textbooks, and actively seeking out clients.



I hope Apollo keeps up his trend in the next game. I would hate for him to become more like Phoenix, and require Trucy to drag him out for each defendant. His excitement over getting to defend Takita in 4-2 was one of the things I loved about him.

---

Something that'd be fun, even though it would be in contradiction to what you say, is Apollo being a state-appointed defense attorney in one case.

---