Having finished AA:AJ, I can say...

...well, with certainty, I can say I liked it better after playing it in English. This is definitely true.

However, it's still my least favorite (and IMO worst) in the series by a large margin, I have huge issues with it that I'll get into later, and I really, really hate Hobo. XD; However, that doesn't mean there wasn't some cool stuff--the murders themselves were interesting, the supporting (not main supporting, but like... case specific) cast had some great characters.

Musically... it has some great tracks, most specifically Objection 2007 and Search~Core 2007. However, I'm not a fan of some of the ones that get a bit too much play time than they should--specifically, both Klavier's theme and the Guitar Serenade in 4-3 aren't very appealing and the fact that they played OVER and OVER and OVER sort of... yeah. Grated on me XD;

The new gameplay...

...I'm not really fond of the DS-specific gimmicks. Okay, yeah, I guess they're cool enough, but you use each of them maybe a few times at most. It's always "here, I'll teach you how to do this," you do it once or three times or whatever, and then you're done. It feels really unnecessary, tacked on, and sort of like spinning to make the Poffins in the DS Pokemon games. The best part about this sort of stuff was seeing Ema likable again.

The Perceive system. Okay. I kind of like this in theory, but in practice, it's actually really annoying. Scanning the body for one particular twitch over an agonizingly slow-playing testimony during a cross-examination? Sure, you usually have an idea of the particular segment to BRACELET on, but that still doesn't make finding the actual 'twitch' any better. It doesn't rely on logic or figuring out the case (like the Psyche-Locks did), it relies on you finding the right spot at the right time by luck.

The tutorial on it is also kind of annoying. As is the fact that they make it BLATANTLY OBVIOUS when you need to BRACELET the first four or so times. After that it's less obtrusive, but still kind of oddly limited. For that matter, I think it's still kind of a dumb idea in concept. So what if a person is tense--they're on a witness stand, I'd be damn tense. Just because they have a nervous twitch or something doesn't mean they're lying. When I used to have my earring, I'd play with it a bit if I was bored just because my hands had nothing to do--it's a simple idle body movement.

Yes, the Psyche-Locks weren't perfect, they missed things--but so does Perceive. You don't need to use it to break every single contradiction in the game. The Psyche-Locks, honestly, seem a lot more trustworthy than Perceiving, because at least then you KNOW someone has something to hide. Here Apollo is just guessing--and because it's a game, he gets lucky and it's right. But there's no solid foundation beneath it, and this is a problem that persists through the game (particularly in the last case and-a-quarter). But more on that later.


The characters:

Apollo - Great. Wonderful. Loved him. Apollo is similar enough to PW1-3 Phoenix to feel familiar and comfortable, but enough of his own character to feel refreshing and... well, like his own character. He's got some great lines ("I'm a lawyer. I live for needless procedure.") and just a really solid and earnest feel to him. Unfortunately, he's really overshadowed by the rest of the cast--particularly in court. Phoenix is in charge the entire time in 4-1, Trucy is nearly as take-charge in 4-2, and in all three Klavier cases he practically builds Apollo's case for him. In the end, I never came away feeling that Apollo had shown himself to be any stronger of an attorney than, say, 1-1 Phoenix. But overall, love the guy.

Trucy - Trucy... where to start? Personally, you get off on the wrong foot with Trucy (at least for me as the player). Apollo has barely met her in 4-2 and she's already acting entirely too intimate with him. She calls him Polly, he asks her not to, she keeps on doing it. She drags him around all over the place, and it really feels like they're trying to replicate the Phoenix/Maya dynamic without giving the characters a reason to grow close like 1-2 gave Phoenix and Maya. It's awkward and kinda uncomfortable. And then, in the first trial day of 4-2, the stunt she pulls with Mr. Hat (while sort of, um, implausible and dumb even by AA standards)... it really wasn't a very good thing to do. Apollo was worried about her to the point of tears, she interfered with a court of law, and she didn't even get punished for it--they just gloss it over like it's all okay. Maya was held in contempt of court for just yelling out, and that one act really endeared her character to me back in 1-4--she was willing to put herself on the line for Phoenix.

We never really get to see more of Trucy beyond her "pop in, one-liner, pop out" self. Again in the inevitable comparison to Maya... in 1-2, you got to see Maya sad. Vulnerable, and a lot more human--like when she started crying listening to Mia's voice on her phone. Trucy acts like a brightly colored cardboard cutout, and the only time we get a hint of something going on below is when Phoenix says it. "Show, not tell" is something even a novice writer should have a handle on, and it doesn't really feel genuine. Still, for all I was "eh" about her character, I love her design, her theme, and she does honestly have some great one-liners. I just wish there felt like there was more to her.

Klavier - I get what they were going for with Klavier, I really do. They wanted a 'nice guy' prosecutor for once. And frankly, after two games of "Prosecutor seeking revenge comes to kick Phoenix Wright's ass," I can understand that. Like so many things in this game though, a good idea loses its punch with shoddy execution. In court, Klavier Gavin is--in a word--boring. The player never really gets the sense that Klavier is trying hard or even all that great a prosecutor. This was a problem with Godot in PW3, too... but even Godot set traps for Phoenix. Klavier just sits back, takes it, maybe Objects occasionally or argues, but without fail he always starts trying to help Apollo build his case. There's no thrill, there's no threat, there's no interest. Is he cool? Sure, he's cool, and I love his design. But in court, he makes for dull gameplay sessions.

Edgeworth objecting in 1-3, helping Phoenix in 1-5 and 2-4? All great moments. Because they showed an evolution of Edgeworth's character, he wasn't actively trying to build Phoenix's case, and because he wasn't doing it ALL THE TIME. And it's annoying, because it didn't have to be like this. So he's a nice guy, he wants to find the truth? They could have played that up. Apollo's first mentor was convicted of murder. His second mentor is a lawyer disbarred for presenting forged evidence. Klavier could be suspicious of Apollo, thinking of HIM as the bad guy. "So... where'd you get that evidence, huh?" That would have kept Klavier as the nice-guy searching for the truth while making him less of a snore in court. Yes, even with flashy poses and loud music, you can still be a snore.

He's better on the character front, though I did sort of find him a somewhat arrogant jerk. Still, again, they drop the ball when it comes to development. His coworker and good friend breaks down in 4-3? Klavier taunts him. There's a bit of it in 4-4 with Kristoph, but... it's too little, too late. I would have liked to see him question, doubt--we get it, he's a NICE GUY who SEARCHES FOR THE TRUTH... but it'd have been better to see CONFLICT. That would have been interesting.

I do love his design though. and he makes a Princess Bride reference.


Ema - With Gumshoe, you get the sense that even though he wasn't the best detective, he loved his job and loved doing it. You really don't get that with Ema, because she hates her job, and it shows. She's apathetic, boring, and rude half the time when you're investigating, if not more. The few times I really liked her were the times when she got all SCIENCE YAY! and brightened up like old 1-5 Ema. No, not every character has to be happy, but Ema simply wasn't likable to me. Plus, I have to admit... I know a lot of people want to ship Klavier/Ema, but I really don't see it. At least with Gumshoe and the three prosecutors, because of Gumshoe's goofy nature it felt like slapstick. With Klavier and Ema, it just feels unkind and like they genuinely don't care for each other--and they sort of get at touchy subjects like their work, their family, etc.


Hobo Nick - Oh boy. Here we go.

If Hobo were another character; if Phoenix were not in this game, and this was Disgruntled McExLawyer #32 as Apollo's new boss... I'd find him interesting. I'd still find him a jerk with questionable ethics, but he'd be sort of compelling. But this is who they're trying to pass off as Phoenix Wright, and it doesn't work. He's one of the few characters in anything I genuinely dislike, he does some VERY shady things--and worse, he never gets called on them, never takes the blame.

In 4-1, he gives the forged Bloody Ace to Trucy to give to Apollo. Now, ignoring the fact that this is precisely how he lost his OWN badge, the fact that he's taking such a gamble with Apollo's career in his FIRST CASE is despicable in and of itself. But what's worse is that he uses that forged evidence. It's not the same as in 3-3 where he pretended the bottle was a bottle of poison and Tigre fell for it--there, he was gambling all on Tigre's oversight. If Tigre hadn't fallen for it, he'd have been sunk.

Kris recognizes it as a forgery, but he can't prove it--the only way to do so is to admit that he's the one who took it from the crime scene and is ergo the killer. The blood on the ace is used to prove which way the victim was seated, which is used to prove where the killer was standing, which proves that the dresser was moved, which proves that Kris couldn't have watched as he claimed and had to have been the killer. Was it right? Sure, because it's a game. But the fact of the matter is, the basis for Kris' conviction... was forged evidence. Kris had taken a card from the scene, yes. Was there blood on the original? Who's to say? It was a swivel chair, after all, and he was found facing the other way--maybe Kris moved the body before the blood could drip. Is it likely that there was blood? Probably. But it still doesn't change the fact that there was no way to know for certain, and Phoenix got a man convicted of murder with forged evidence.

In 4-2, he sends Apollo around as his personal errand boy, getting him to take "cases," and then when Apollo has the NERVE to ask "hey, are you going to pay me?" Phoenix flat out says that he won't. That still really rubs me the wrong way, because, uh, using somebody like that isn't... very... Phoenix-like.

In 4-3, Phoenix is thankfully absent until the end... when the game itself begins to fall apart. He mentions that he's on a secret mission to overhaul the court system, and that Daryan can't be convicted with 'evidence.'

Let's ignore the fact that it would be catastrophically stupid for a country to entrust overhauling the judicial system to a man who was stripped of his badge for forging evidence.

This is where the game starts to really go downhill (4-3's mediocrity as a case aside). The fact that Apollo, our lovable main character, actually starts spouting lines like "Sure, you couldn't do that under the "law," but..." should... kind of creep people out, really. But we'll get into that in a bit.

4-4... I don't even know where to start. Phoenix once again ropes Apollo into being the defense in the test trial, regardless of Apollo's own personal wishes. In the flashback case, Phoenix... kind of doesn't act like Phoenix. He felt way too cocky to me, honestly. Plus, he was completely dumb when it came to the bit with presenting the forged page. Even further, he continues the disturbing "it's feelings that matter, not evidence and law" trend from the previous case. To the point where if you actually think about the Mason System, you realize that at least half of it--the seven-years-ago part--is completely faked evidence, and other things (presenting Thalassa's photo to Zak, presenting the nail polish to Vera) are further altered, basically him being "Yeah, I think this is what would have happened."

So Phoenix basically sets up an entire trial revolving around something he made up.

And he never gets called on it.

Well done.


All right, I've skirted around the moral argument long enough. The thing that really gets under my skin about AJ--and Phoenix's moral philosophy that is championed in the end--is that... especially in the world where the AA games are set, it's really scary.

Let's just get this one assumption out of the way first--judging by the surprise at Phoenix's ability to not only clear his client's name but find the real culprit in one move in the first case or so of PW1, we can deduce that in the AA world, you do not need to find someone else guilty to get a Not Guilty verdict. It just so happens that this is the way it works in the games because... hey, it's a game, and where would the fun be otherwise?

So Phoenix--and Apollo--have a method that's clearly the exception to the norm.

In the real world, in most of Western law, the tendency is towards lenience rather than punishment, ever since the Orestia. It's the principle behind "innocent until proven guilty," "reasonable doubt" in murder trials, and--also in murder trials--the need for a unanimous jury decision to establish guilt. It's much easier to prove someone innocent than to prove someone guilty, reflecting the ideal that "It's better to let twenty guilty men walk free than to convict a single innocent," and I'm probably mangling the quote and I don't remember who said it in the first place but the sentiment is the same >_>

In the AA world, it's the other way around. It seems that most of the times, guilt is presumed.

The two times these sentiments are expressed, in the ends of 4-3 and 4-4... the frustration is not over inability to find someone innocent, but inability to find someone guilty. Apollo outright says that there's virtually no court in the country that would convict Machi as is, but he keeps going--to drive Daryan to breakdown and confession. It's admittedly trickier in 4-4 because the Judge outright says that he'll have to hand down a verdict if Apollo can't prove who sent the nail polish to Vera; but honestly, to me that just smacks of poor writing (much in the same way Kristoph told Phoenix that he couldn't use the obviously-missing-page of the journal as evidence). They'd established that the stamp had been the murder weapon, and that the stamp had come in the red envelope. Science today can date when things were created; and proving that Vera had just been 12 when the stamp came would have almost undoubtedly done the trick--what 12-year-old wants to murder her father?

But the jury system, and the "feelings" Phoenix blabbed on about... were used to break Kristoph down. Sure, in the end you ended voting on Vera, but it just feels like a contradiction of everything they spent three games establishing.

In a world where innocence is presumed, voting on feeling and intuition is obviously the way to go. Similarly, in a world where guilt is presumed, trusting the decision not to "law" and "evidence" but to "feelings" is downright scary. Especially when you consider that a good portion of the Mason System was Phoenix forging evidence.

How did you present the bottle of nail polish to Vera in the past when it came from Kristoph's cell? How did you present Thalassa's photo to Zak (before his murder) when you didn't get it until long after? Hell, how did Phoenix even have RECORDINGS of seven years past--he wasn't wearing the button-cam then.

There are three solutions: 1.) He traveled through time. 2.) It's shitty writing. 3.) He was making the evidence up.

I think that 1's out, and 2 doesn't necessarily have to rule out the other, so both 2 and 3 are true.

The Mason System is essentially, for a huge part, Phoenix going "Well, I think this is what would have happened." "I couldn't actually present this to Vera at the time, so I don't really know what she'd say." Etc, etc, etc. What's even shadier is the fact that you realize Apollo didn't know some of the stuff presented in the Mason System--so he obviously wasn't shown it, it was just the jury. The two attorneys weren't even permitted to watch the footage.

Now, because it's a game with a happy ending, Phoenix ended up telling the truth. Hooray. But he was still forging evidence, and they were still judging on the truth that he unilaterally decided, and that he presented to them. Imagine if he'd been less scrupulous. He could have shown almost anything he'd wanted.

The last time a character in the series decided their own truth (that also turned out to be right) and presented the world that truth through forging evidence, she went to jail for an unspecified period of time.

So why should Phoenix get off scot free?



In the end, AJ has its strong points, but it also has a bunch of weak points and some genuinely scary moral issues that it champions. I haven't even said everything I've wanted to say, but I'm typing this all in the text box itself and it's getting sort of stream of consciousness.

PWAA: A
PWJFA: B+/A-
PWT&T: A/A+
AAAJ: C

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Hmm...you make several good points, but there were a few that I wanted to comment on.



While not every body movement has to indicate some type of hidden agenda, it's a fact that one's body language speaks volumes about their thoughts. For instance, reading other's body language while not giving away your own hand is an important part of poker. Also, it's harder to lie to someone when looking them straight in the eye, so people (kids especially) tend to look to the side instead. People may bite their lip or their nails when they're stressed or nervous (such as Vera Misham, in this game. )

Also, almost every time the Perceive System is used, Apollo has to justify his claim with a piece of evidence. He doesn't just guess and get lucky; he uses proof to supplement his noticing of nervous habits.



There's an identical bottle of nail polish on Vera's desk. However, I think you're only allowed to present the one "from the future" so that the Jury understands that the bottle came from Kristoph. Once they notice that "Hey, Kristoph has that weird nail polish bottle," then Phoenix shows them that Vera had that same bottle, and the Jury can make the connection.

As for how Phoenix knew that Kristoph had a bottle like that without "traveling to the future"? Given that Kristoph and Phoenix became friends during those 7 years, he probably saw Gavin apply the nail polish quite a few times.

Thalassa's photo is a different story...but I think that's just a gameplay mechanic more than anything else. Phoenix could have simply brought up the subject of Apollo's bracelet, commenting on the strange object and its resemblance to Thalassa's bracelet, and thus no photo would be needed. However, since everything in Ace Attorney requires evidence, and Phoenix himself describes the "game" like nature of the Mason System, the actual evidence is required.

But Phoenix wouldn't have presented any nail polish to her in the past, because he wouldn't have met or suspected Kristoph yet. As far as he knew, it was only a bottle of nail polish. Sure, given the context with Kristoph later once they met and became 'friends,' he'd piece it together. But not at the time.

And 'fun gameplay mechanic' or no, the only way it makes sense in-game...

...is if Phoenix was forging and altering evidence to directly present to the jury without the lawyers being there XD

Also, still doesn't explain how he'd possibly get the footage from the past. Seriously, if we weren't told by the game that it was the truth, for all intents and purposes Phoenix could have just made up Vera having the nail polish at all.

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Thank you for your long post, some of the points are really good.




...Ah, I know it's coming.

Well, I have to admit the perceive system is not as interesting as the psyche-locks one for some people, but I feel it's unfair to say it's untruthful in the same time. I actually turned to one of my friends about the point of witness's twitch in the real life. He's a police officer, has full experience of question and usually take a stand in courts by himself. He told me watching witness's twitch is one of the most important skills of question. You can hardly say the witnesses are relax when they are questioned by a police men, but their twitch are still watchable. When people are telling lies, they unconsciously do something weird, not necessary to be nasty sweating, thought=P. It's some kind of a sudden change of certain habit, more likely. For example, if one guy kept on quivering his legs when he was talking but in a few seconds he stopped, then kept going again, my friend would look back what he just said and try to attack on that point.

I think it's quite obvious that the writer of GS is trying to make it closer to our real life, you can see sprite power quit the stage and science technology is coming. I can't say how playworthy the Perceive System is,( it's a very personal feeling, I guess )but it's absolutely trustworthy than the magatama thing.



Oh, by the way, I really like the post and it shows some very interesting points...Um, may I translate it into my own language and transship( sorry just donno a better word ) it to another GS forum?( With your name, of course^-^)

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I suppose, it just feels weird to me. Specifically in gameplay.

And you'd be willing to translate it? The entire thing?

Wow. XD; Sure, I'd be honored.

当然

;)

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Although I don't agree on a few points - well-written.

On Trucy - she does have feelings, but obviously not as much shown as Maya, because her sister didn't die in the first case she appeared (instead, a random doctor - woop?), and it is definitely shown at the very end, just before the credits, that she is actually quite sad about everything. She just doesn't show it. Maya also attached herself immediately to Phoenix, even while he was another very possible suspect in 1-2. Trucy, then, is a lot more clever than Maya, and knows when she would be obstructive. She actually ends up acting a lot more clever than Apollo, reversing the roles of Holmes and Watson the lawyer and the aide had in the first few games.

Klavier I agree on. He had a few prosecutor moments, but in the end the courtroom didn't feel like a battle between the defense and prosecution - instead, it was defense & prosecution against the witness. Them meanies ;_;

Phoenix - I can see where you're coming from, but I can't agree that his personality change is strange or whatever - if you had your badge stripped off after years of fighting for the right thing, wouldn't you be? And in my eyes, he hasn't changed that much - he always was a bit of a scumbag. In the first three games, you could see his inner thoughts (or mutterings, some say), but when you strip those away from him, what's left? He IS a bit of a bluff and gambler, and he's always been like that.

Ema - she was funny, but I think that's a matter of personal taste. She became somewhat bitter due to not becoming a forensic investigator, too, but that's okay, you know - we needed a new detective, and Ema has a lot of foundation to stand on for future games.

The MASON system, while odd, was, I think, just away of having an investigation phase between two timelines. It's not all possible what happens there, but I imagine that it's a more vivid way of showing the things Phoenix found out over the course of seven years. I agree that presenting evidence from the future is still queer :p

Lastly, the Jurist system - I agree on that. It was a bit of an anti-climax to have it end not with evidence, but with a weird little system that doesn't even work (debatable) in the real world. It was a really odd way of pushing Kristoph into his breakdown.

Overall, I thought the game was good, and most loose ends were tied up, even if there were a few inconsistencies and immoral happenings. But huh, tastes differ :)

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Well, I suppose a C is better than a U; but I still think people are being unnecciserily harsh on the game. Well, on some of the points anyway, because there are a few things I agree with.

Actually, the basis for Kris' conviction was the trump cad in the bottle. If you look, the Judge never formally accepts the evidence as fact, it just gives Nick the excuse to be allowed to find the bottle with the card in it. True, if the evidence was important like the page in the journal then it would be a much bigger problem, but it wasn't. Besides, if I was disbarred from my job, took on a daugther and had to play poker for seven years, my moral compass would take a beating. Which leads us to this.

Actually, all the events in the system really did happen. There's no doubt he met Meekins in the Lobby for instance, or that Valant told him about the true end to Magnifi, or he met Brushel in the studio and he told him that he felt watched.

True, some things might not make sense, but I personally think the MASON system couldn't be faked because he had superiors looking at his task. All the meetings that were in there could be officially verified and confirmed by talking to the people who were there. (Valant turned himself in for instance, so he could prove that he met Nick in the detention center and outside the colleseum). As for the whole Nail Polish, or Locket presenting, they can be easily explained. First, Phoenix suspected Kristoph from the start, he says so himself. So he probably saw the nail polish before the time he saw it in the cell. As for the locket, it's Trucy's. He could easily borrow it from her before the meeting.

And now for the big one. I don't understand why the legal system suddenly changing is 'scary'. If anything, surely doing it this way is BETTER because it's more fair. It's suddenly become more democratic; I can hardly see that as a bad thing. I mean, the public aren't the people who created the law system in the first place so why assume they'd vote guilty? They probably act like you or I would, and find the truth. (And if not, then it's the same thing that happens in our world.)

Well, that was a big post. XD I suppose the reason I wrote it was to say three things. 1) The evidence Nick forged wasn't used to prove anything, 2)Everything in the MASON system would have to be verified by the Police and his superiors, 3) The inconsistancies can be explained for the most part and 4) The justice system gets more democratic and fair whenever a jury system is applied, even if the burden of proof is on the Defence. And as for Nick acting out of character.... we've said a lot about that allready. He's spent his entire legal life bending the rules, so I think the shock of disbarment made him decide to break them.

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Let's be fair here. In the end, the forged evidence wasn't the decisive evidence (so no, it really wasn't what convicted him). Phoenix made it pretty clear to the court that HE was the one who found it, and it didn't seem like Apollo was in any real danger there. Really, he was putting himself at risk, because if it came out it was forged, he would've been the one found guilty most likely.


Let's be fair again. It was never made clear that he was showing it to the jury. I thought he was breaking the fourth wall and addressing the gamer. Either way, the Mason System is really so unclear that you might as well figure out those last two episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion. Then again, I think the whole thing should've been deleted and rewritten (as I mentioned), so we're in agreement there at least. But Phoenix DOES refer to it as a game, so some of the changes can be considered "liberties" he took to make it, er, a game. I still think the whole "present to past" should have been dropped. Then again, like I said I thought it was lousy gameplay-wise and would've rather replaced it with standard investigation scenes. So...I agree the Mason System was pretty weak, but it wasn't even made clear at all who Phoenix was talking to.

Of course, like you, my least favorite case was of the game was 4-4. But I think it was for different reasons...it was because it lacked the "hook" that 1-4, 2-4, and 3-5 did (well, it had a hook, but didn't hit you with it until midway through it), and as a result there really wasn't anything special about it at first. The part in the past was pretty cool, but then there's the Mason System, which I disliked because (as you said) it contradicts reality, really...and the fact it wast just plain boring. And of course there's the single most anticlimactic ending of any Phoenix Wright case at the end.

I loved Ema and Trucy though.

Yeah, seems like Apollo was always the last horse to cross the finish line while everyone else figured everything out. I kinda didn't like that.

But without the bloody ace, there's no way to disprove Kris' statement that he was watching from the window. the Ace is still key.



You'd think that, but this is a judicial system that trusts a man who was thrown out for forging evidence. So I wouldn't be surprised if they just let him go it alone. And yes, everything did happen, because this is a game and it tells us "Yaaay Phoenix is goooood." What's scary is that how EASILY it could be abused.



Right, like talking to Drew, who... oh, right.

And the tricky thing is there's no sense of 'timeline' seven years ago. We don't know when Phoenix's hearing was, if it came before or after he went to see the Mishams. And the point still stands, even if he had possibly seen the nail polish/suspected Kris before then, he couldn't present the nail polish from the future to Vera.


I'm talking about the picture of Thalassa that Brushel gives you. No way around that one.


Because the two times it's used, it's used to convict someone who wouldn't be convictable otherwise. Freeing someone else is just incidental when they could have been freed already.



Except Apollo is still the one who presented it to the court, and Phoenix was disbarred for the exact same thing. If Kris had been thinking, it would have been game over.



The bits after Mason investigation and before the final 'verdict' make it pretty clear that you are the jury--Thalassa, specifically. He's talking to you as the jury. Which...

...is my point, and pretty shady.

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Edgey got away with it. Mainly as he could prove that he didn't know about the whole thing. Since Nick takes full responsibility for the evidence, the only thing that could possibly happen was Nick getting imprisoned, which is the chance that he's willing to take. All Apollo would get was Kristoph's anger. Besides, even if it is morally suspect, Nicks always been a bit like that.

Polly was in no real danger as he had someone to speak up for him. Nick never got that chance.

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Regardless of whether or not Phoenix would have allowed Apollo to lose his badge, it's still a horrible, manipulative thing to do to someone who trusts in him and is going against his own mentor to defend him. Yes, Edgeworth was cleared of any wrong-doing...and he was so depressed afterwards he vanished and left a suicide note behind. Besides, what if Apollo pulled the same thing Phoenix did in 4-4? Then what would Phoenix have done?

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And Phoenix is clearly unhappy about the situation. He apologizes in court when he confesses to altering the scene and he clearly wanted to be punished as is shown by the last scene where he encourages Apollo to hit him. Phoenix brings up the forgery at the end despite the fact that Apollo hadn't realized the problem and likely wouldn't have if it had not been brought up by Phoenix. He uses his words to further anger Apollo and encourage Apollo to hit him. Recall, there is no surprise or anger when it comes. Phoenix knew it was coming, knew he deserved it, and wanted it to happen. Phoenix wanted to make sure the real guilty party was found and he needed Apollo for that to work. The whole game is about how the law protects the criminals and that justice is no longer truly being served (Particularly stressed in 4-3 when Apollo even cries that out mentally. He is so upset that its clear Daryan is guilty, but he's still going to walk away... unless unusual means are used). It's possible that Phoenix could have gotten off without Apollo and his little trick (although considering the PW/AJ system it seems unlikely), but he could not have gotten the real criminal. Just like seven years before, Kristoph would have walked away unscathed but this time he would have gotten away with murder. Phoenix was careful to make sure Apollo was never in danger and even teaches him a good lesson about the need to not trust blindly (which is what got Phoenix into trouble seven years ago). Trust is great, but sometimes you need to question things or you'll wind up in trouble. A lesson Phoenix had to learn the hard way.

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Blame himself for the rest of his life, I would expect. I'm not saying it's a good thing he did it at all, but I haven't seen anyone come up with a way to get the same results without doing it. What would happen if Kristoph had gotten free? WHAM! Goodbye Nick. And with Nick gone, there would be no-one to look after Trucy. Not to mention that Kristoph would eventually try to twist Apollo to be like himself, just like what Karma did to Edgey. It's the worst case scenario, and Nick wasn't allowed to let it happen so he just did what he thought he needed to do.

But still, I agree that there's no way to fully justify his actions. But thats the way he is now, and I have to say that after playing through the original game, I can see it coming. Not only that, but 1-5 pretty much sets up the whole scenario; Edgey avoids the trap that Nick falls straight into XD

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"The Law Protects the Criminals"?

Do you remember what Edgeworth tells Wright in 2-4?

"Even the guilty are entitled to a fair trial."

That's the way the justice system works. Innocent or guilty, you are entitled to a fair trial under the law. The fact that this is presented as a bad thing is scary.

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A fair trial? You've got to be kidding me. As soon as the burden of proof is placed on the Defence, the law ceases to be fair. That's just the way it works, as the main point of a fair trial is to only convict when there's no possible doubt. By having a jury, as I said earlier, it makes the process more fair. Remember, this is Vera's trial, not Kristophs; he only implicates himself with his DBZesque freak-out.

Besides, if Kristoph went to trial straight afterwards WITHOUT the Mason system he'd still be found Guilty. There really isn't any reasonable doubt about his involvement, especially with the evidence collected (Not counting the Photograph of the Letter, of course since that isn't allowed as evidence)

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Point out the lack of blood spatter. Where could the blood have gone? It was taken from the scene of the crime via the card. If the blood splattered on the card, the position is different, ect, ect.

Also, don't say anything about using "something missing" as a link in the evidence chain--Phoenix does it in 3-2.

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How could he point out the lack of blood splatter if there was no way of proving that the chair was swiveled. He had no evidence to prove that because Kristoph was careful, which meant that there was no way he'd go down for it. The only way to prove it was swiveled was with the forged evidence.

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In 4-3, Apollo's proved motive, opportunity, and even the judge and prosecutor have admitted that it seems more than likely all this happened. Still, the judge agrees that Daryan walks without that last piece of evidence despite the fact that everyone knows he's guilty. It's actually similar to 3-3 where Tigre almost walks, but Phoenix works that bluff with the ear medicine. Had Tigre not confessed, he would have gotten away as well. Does being good at covering your crimes entitle you to get away with them? To capture Daryan, Apollo has to incriminate his own client which is something he really didn't want to do, but its the only way for justice to be served. The system doesn't work with the people like Kristoph and Daryan because they know the law inside and out, so they can take measures to make sure to erase the decisive evidence. Should they be permitted to get away with their crimes? Yes, everyone is entitled to a fair trial, but this isn't the same as allowing criminals to walk away because of a technicality. The evidence was there and their crimes were real. Sometimes common sense is a good thing particularly when everything fits.

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No. There was no blood splatter anywhere, even though there was blood running down Shadi's head. The blood had to have gone somewhere. If the positioning was right, it would have been on the floor. It wasn't. Killer didn't have time to mop the floor. Where did the blood go? The killer took it with him.



Again, yes, it does. The game doesn't exhaust its options before saying "ZOMG WE NEED FORGED EVIDENCE TO BEAT THIS GUY", it just tells you, "ZOMG WE NEED FORGED EVIDENCE TO BEAT THIS GUY". If Kristoph was so tough, he could have pointed out that this evidence was introduced rather late, and cosnidering the past of the defendant, he wanted it to be tested.

Daryan was found guilty, so I don't see the problem here. Machi was guilty of the crime he was sentanced for. I liked Machi adn I think it's fucked that they can even send fourteen year old kid to jail, but if the PW system works along the lines of "commit a crime, do the time" then he should be punished for his own part in the smuggling.

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Black and white photo would mean you couldn't see the blood on the floor very well. Besides, there was only a small bit of blood. Would anyone see it? There was only a tiny bit on the ace after all. It wouldn't be blatent enough to sway the judge to be honest.

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Considering Phoenix was arrested at the scene, I imagine doing that would only have proved that it was Smith's blood on that card. Phoenix only had one chance to create the card before his arrest, so its likely he did so there and hid the card for Trucy to pick up later (the cops in PW/AJ aren't overly thorough and Phoenix knew the place well so finding a safe hiding place for it would not have been a problem). Kristoph had to have realized that having it tested would only make his case worse. The only way he could have known the evidence was forged was to be the killer and have taken the original from the scene).

The problem with Daryan is that he came within a hair of getting away with everything. The game plays by the theory that the defendant is guilty unless the defense can prove someone else had motive, opportunity, and everything else. Then at the drop of the hat, its all thrown out. This is fair?

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They could have gotten Machi off the hook without needing to convict Daryan. Apollo even says that outright--there's no court that could possibly find Machi guilty the way things were.

(let's ignore the fact that Machi should never have been on trial in the first place but >_>)

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Did they ever explain why Machi and LeTouse's body were moved along with a guitar to the platform? That just seemed kinda random and highly risky for the killer.

To match the lyrics of the song, throwing off suspicion on Daryan. 'cause the killing would have happened on the 3rd act, where he had a perfect alibi.

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I think TV Tropes put it best:
"The Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney series is based off a complete bastardization of any fair and just legal system, wherein a single line of false testimony from a barely credible witness can completely screw your client, but that's okay -- more fun that way! Objection!"

In other words: It doesn't matter if it's a fair justice system or not. What matters--the ONLY thing that matters--is how fun it is.

Of course, given that the jury provided one of the most anticlimactic endings of any case in the PW series, I'd be more than happy to go back to the original system. Is the original system fair? Not so much. Is it fun, exciting, and without the lamest climax to any PW game ever? Yep!

Lord Seth's right.
People, the PW court has never been fair. It has always been guilty until proven innocent, which, LIKE ALL THE OTHER COURT RULES, are implemented for gameplay reasons. Don't search behind it - it has been like this since 1-1.

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Nope. Nor do they explain HOW Machi could possibly move LeTouse's body. Nor do they explain how a little boy is supposed to have overpowered an Interpol agent and fired a gun twice that would have dislocated even a grown man's shoulder.

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But that's the problem. I can accept the way the PW world works because "hey, it's a game, it's silly to get worked out about it". But when the world itself starts to get worked up about how screwed up the justice system is--even though nothing really changes from the other games and it doesn't even put forth the effort to make sure there was no way out except forging evidence--the whole thing becomes ridiculous. The PW games are based on the idea that a witness can lie ten times on the stand, and you need long chains of evidence to prove your client innocent--because that's fun. It's not fun to hear characters bitch and moan about it in what boils down to "my job is haaaaaard sometimes". Uh, no shit. We knew that back when we played GS1.

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I agree about the other characters doing the work; sometimes it felt like the only things Apollo got to point out were ridiculously simple or so difficult you kind of wonder how the writers followed that line of thinking.

Phoenix seemed kind of out of character in the flashback case. I didn't enjoy playing as him as much as I thought I would. The whole, "Haha, stupid novice" thing bugged me.

Concerning the forged evidence, there were other ways to get Zak off the hook, and I really can't imagine Phoenix being so stupid. It was physically painful for me when I realized that I had to present that page.

Ema was really annoying. I kind of felt like, "stop being so bitchy, and quit hitting me with those damn pretzels"!

I also liked the side characters more then the main ones. My favorite was probably Plum with her broom-sword. XD

The game had some funny lines, but TaT was waaaay better.

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Agreed on most points, except for the forged evidence. Kristoph got Phoenix disbarred with fake evidence, Phoenix returned the favor seven years later. It might not have been "right", but Kristoph was a murderer, and in the absence of a jury, justice needed a little "push". It's karma. Well, maybe "karma" isn't the right word (XD). Difference between that and the evidence that Kristoph forged is that the bloody ace DID exist-- Phoenix just didn't have the same bloody ace. Fair enough.

Also,



Indeed.

I'll copy-spaghetti what I said in the '4-3 loose ends' thread (reasons why the prosecution should never have brought the case against Machi):


1. They make a point to say that LeTouse lost his .45 revolver in a struggle. Okay. A thirty-something year old GIANT of a man (a bodyguard and a trained Interpol agent, no less!) has his side arm wrestled away from him by a fourteen-year old?!? Klavier, wtf? And Udgey, wtf?!?

2. They also make a point to say that the .45 revolver had an extremely powerful kickback, and that it was fired twice. Um, if tiny Machi had really fired the revolver, if it was such a high-power make, then wouldn't he have broken or cracked something after the first shot?

3. Let's consider what would happen if Machi did somehow fire those two shots. LeTouse was shot in the shoulder and bled to death. Machi is much shorter than Romein LeTouse, so for him to shoot LeTouse in the shoulder, Machi would have to fire with an upward trajectory, which would mean that the two bullet holes would be somewhere on the ceiling, NOT on the opposite wall!

4. The last one happened after the murder, when the prosecution claims that Machi moved LeTouse's body from the dressing room to the tower. This was the point I stopped suspending my disbelief. Machi is fourteen years old, and tiny. LeTouse is...well, we've seen him. He's HUGE. He's the Borginian Giant. If Machi committed the crime, and did it alone as the prosecution alleged...how the heck did he move the body? XD


Of course, we know that the facts of the crime make perfect sense when we know that Daryan (a tall and strong young man) did it. But the prosecution brought the case against a fourteen year old piano player? And you don't even have the option of pointing this out?!? Apollo?!? This case wouldn't even make it to trial! It would be thrown out and Klavier would be smacked over the head with a guitar for suggesting it! XD

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That is true, but then justice wouldn't really have been served because the real killer would have escaped. Just getting Machi off wasn't the point. It's very clear that Apollo was after Daryan and wanted him to pay for his crimes. He wanted to help Machi as well as catch the real killer and he couldn't have done that without Machi's confession because Daryan knew the law too well to leave behind decisive evidence. As Daryan claims (not a quote), Apollo could line up all the evidence he wanted, but no matter how guilty Daryan looked, he could not have been convicted without the decisive evidence which Apollo didn't have. He was guilty and everybody in the room admitted he was almost certainly guilty, but it couldn't be proven under the current system.

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I was gonna write some huge manifesto about my thoughts on Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, and here you've already done it for me! I have some minor disagreements with you about parts of the Perceive and Mason systems, but after that I pretty much agree with you completely. This game was a stunning vision of mediocrity, with maybe the most exemplary part of it being the soundtrack. (I'm not even sure I could so generously give it a C. It'd have to be a C--.) What a shame after the original trilogy was so good! Not perfect of course, but so much better than this.

It seems you've made some well-thought-out comments and a very honest assessment, Funk. Kudos. I'd trust my trial to you before any of the lawyers presented in that game.

PS: Did anyone else think that figuring out the magic trick in 4-3 was fucking lame? Especially considering the seriousness of a murder trial and that fact that two or three people in the courtroom already knew how it was pulled off. If Apollo was going to reveal it anyway, why couldn't they have just explained it and forgone a bunch of needless bullshit? OH WAIT-- Shitty, shitty writing to force a little more game-play in. And that's only one of many examples.

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Like the other games didn't have their share of that either.

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It was still forged evidence. Adrian knew Matt was responsible for Juan's death in 2-4, so she forged evidence and altered the crime scene. And the game points out that she shouldn't have done it, she acknowledges her crime and spends months in jail for it. Where's Phoenix's jail time, hmm?

That's the scary thing about forged evidence in both 4-1 and 4-4. Phoenix ends up being right, yes? But what if he wasn't? He's influencing the trial not on real evidence, but on his 'feelings.' Adrian was right about Matt's guilt, but wrong about him actually committing the murder himself.

2-4 makes the consequences of altering and forging evidence abundantly clear.

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And that's the scary part.

Apollo is a defense lawyer. His job is to prove people innocent. He's not a prosecutor. Yes, in the AA games those things often coincide because... hey, game. But he had done his job, and Daryan should have gotten his own, fair trial that he was entitled to.

Which just further proves my point that the jury system is implemented to convict people, not to free them. And convicting people just based on 'feelings' instead of evidence and law? Is frightening indeed.

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Not only that, but you couldn't "save" Iris from the consequences of her part in the crime, so I don't see why the system is "broken" if you can't get Machi off scot-free. The system is broken because Apollo had to use witness testimony instead of decisive evidence? No, the system would be broken if he couldn't even use witness testimony to prove Daryan guilty.

Really, the best way to go about it would have been to have you lose the first trial defending Phoenix. That would send a clear message about the current state of the legal system. The rest of the game could have been getting to the bottom of everything and clearing his name. (It's not like they were going to stick the needle in him the second he walked through the prison doors, and being convicted also means Kristoph can't get to him as easily.)

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Also, I believe there were WAY more incidences of those lame pretexts in AJ, or at least that's the lingering bad taste in my mouth. It's one of the reasons this game disappointed me so much. Plus constant flashbacks of things that happened only moments ago. If you stripped away the unnecessary reminders, replays of videos, and badly crafted, insignificant things like the magic trick, there'd hardly be a game left at all. Actual, honest-to-god entertaining and relevant content was pathetically lacking in this game.

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Oh man, SO much agreement with the flashbacks.

"THAT HAPPENED LIKE FIVE MINUTES AGO. STOP SHOWING IT TO ME."

4-3 was the worst offender. Day 1? How many times did we see LeTouse die? And on Day 2, how many times did we watch the damn video?

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Adrian altered the scene for revenge and admits as much when you do her last psyche lock. She doesn't do so because she knows he's guilty and just wants justice. In fact, while Matt was certainly guilty of his part in the crime, he was not the one who actually committed the crime. Adrian wanted Matt to pay for what he did to Celeste and in altering the scene, she made things worse for everyone in disguising the truth. She removes De Killer's card (unknowingly but still does so) and then plants evidence on Matt which did not exist originally (unlike the card which did exist and was taken). She also alters stabs the body and lies on the stand. What she did was clearly unlawful, while what Phoenix did was unethical but not illegal (if the forged evidence was illegal, why did Phoenix not serve time seven years before? He was punished by the bar association for betraying his oath as an attorney, not because his actions in themselves were illegal or at least according to the PW/AJ world).

I'm tired of arguing over this honestly. In the end, Phoenix was put into a very difficult situation and had very few options available to him. I don't like that he used the forged ace, but I understand why he did it and I forgive him for it. His options were limited even in just getting himself off the hook and when you throw in his desire to get the real killer, the options become even fewer. He also gets himself punished for it in a unique way, but he certainly doesn't allow himself to get off scot free. Under the assumption that someone in that room had to commit the crime, there were only two possibilities. One was that the killer was Phoenix and the other Olga. Since the PW/AJ system seems to rely on your showing your client's innocence by proving someone else did it, there was no way to avoid that one of them was going to pay for the murder... unless Phoenix could show that someone else had been in that room (through the switched up card) and then he needed to show why that card had been switched. The evidence he created had existed and Phoenix never actually claimed that evidence was real. He simply kept things moving, so no one would notice. Apollo was never in danger. He was understandably pissed off, but not in danger. The card was needed to really cast serious suspicion on Kristoph and make his being in the room a real possibility. It was the not decisive evidence and it led to the whole case being resolved. You don't have to like what he did and you don't have to forgive him for it if you don't want to, but I honestly don't see a better way of doing things that ends up with the same result.

I think the forged evidence was to show the trouble the system was in and is better than having Phoenix rotting in a jail cell as this would mean that the investigation into the events of seven years ago would have stopped. Apollo had no reason to look into that case except that Phoenix was urging him along there. Kristoph certainly wouldn't have allowed Apollo to look into it even if he had wanted to for some strange reason. If Phoenix falls, the truth disappears with him. That the real killer couldn't have been caught without the fake evidence is very wrong. Moreover, when Kristoph is finally caught for everything he did, it is done with real evidence under the new system. What the old system couldn't do, the new system can.

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