Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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To me the thing that stood out the most was when Phoenix presented Apollo's profile, it's odd because I doubt that they met before. Also I guess the reason you had to take evidence from the future to the past was to connect the evidence.
I also finally realized that Ema must have given Phoenix the camera on his hat, look at Young Ema's sprites and you see a similar button.
So do you think Ema had a part in the Mason system?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Examining the Drew Studio of 2018 will reveal the nail polish, sitting on the small table. If Phoenix takes this bottle as evidence, Vera could not become critically ill on the stand nor would she be able to leave the house without becoming hysterical. In other words, what actually happened in court that day would be impossible. The MASON System therefore takes a creative liberty and borrows a bottle from the future. It's the least improbable of two very improbable scenarios.
The MASON System is designed to provide a simulation of a person's history and thought processes; in this case, that of one Phoenix Wright. It's not going to be a perfect recollection of events. In fact, the game dialogue (especially during the sepia-tinted scenes) clearly indicates that whilst this isn't how it actually happened, in retrospect this is what Phoenix would have done if he knew what he knows now. The system simply demonstrates to the jury how Phoenix has reached his conclusions, and whether the jury considers this plausible or not is up to them.
Most of the time-travelling evidence is simply an abstraction - the MASON System's (and Ace Attorney's) "game engine" requires you to present evidence to move the investigation along. This requires the simulation to abstract the scenario in places to make it possible and coherent for the juror.
Azure_Serenade wrote:
To me the thing that stood out the most was when Phoenix presented Apollo's profile, it's odd because I doubt that they met before.
When Phoenix presents Apollo's profile, he states clearly that he recently met him in the Gavin and Co. Law Offices. Given the context and time-frame of this scenario, it is unlikely that it is a MASON System abstraction.
Azure_Serenade wrote:
I also finally realized that Ema must have given Phoenix the camera on his hat, look at Young Ema's sprites and you see a similar button. So do you think Ema had a part in the Mason system?
So do you think Ema had a part in the Mason system?It's not very likely. Ema does not demonstrate intimate knowledge of electronics and mechanics in her detective and forensic work. ;)
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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1.) Phoenix forging evidence (manipulating the video)
and
2.) Crappy writing
....it's solved! :D
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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And yes, remember Gavin wasn't in prison seven years ago. He was running Gavin and Co Offices and Apollo was an apprentice attorney mentoring under him (Apollo was 15 himself back then, not exactly the age you can become a defense attorney...unless you're in Germany apparently X) -shot-)
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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mario2000 wrote:
I like to think that Phoenix is a time-traveling genie.
Dude I hate you.
-HAS AN IMAGE OF PHOENIX BEING A GENIE ON A MAGIC CARPET NOW-
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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WhiteElephant wrote:
And yes, remember Gavin wasn't in prison seven years ago. He was running Gavin and Co Offices and Apollo was an apprentice attorney mentoring under him
Apollo's whereabouts and activities at age 15 are unknown. This is why presenting his profile in the past does nothing.
The only time it does anything useful is in the present time, when breaking Zak's Psyche-Lock. When Phoenix presents Apollo's profile in this situation, he states clearly that he recently met him in the Gavin and Co. Law Offices. Given the context and time-frame of this scenario, it is unlikely that it is a MASON System abstraction.
Quote:
Actually it's possible that Ema learned how to make cameras or fit in small cameras into little spy buttons like that. Forensics doesn't just have to do with analyzing. Forensics scientists usually try to learn as much as they can about mechanics as well, since with forensics machinery you need to know this.
I never said it was impossible, just unlikely with what we know about Ema so far. Talking to her about her deep-scanning equipment in 4-4 reveals she doesn't actually know the fine details of how her machine works. This may be an isolated incident or more likely indicates that Ema is capable of using machines but not so good at designing them.
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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WhiteElephant wrote:
mario2000 wrote:
I like to think that Phoenix is a time-traveling genie.
Dude I hate you.
-HAS AN IMAGE OF PHOENIX BEING A GENIE ON A MAGIC CARPET NOW-
Squadalah! We're off!
--Millini (Official CR Rock Prince and Gavinism convert.)
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Seriously, though, I was fine with the Mason System until I realized that I had to grab the
Spoiler:
Avvie image by Sklarvv.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Officer 1BDI wrote:
nail polish
... /slap
Asura Velotix wrote:
Examining the Drew Studio of 2018 will reveal the nail polish, sitting on the small table. If Phoenix takes this bottle as evidence, Vera could not become critically ill on the stand nor would she be able to leave the house without becoming hysterical. In other words, what actually happened in court that day would be impossible. The MASON System therefore takes a creative liberty and borrows a bottle from the future. It's the least improbable of two very improbable scenarios.
Do I really need to explain this in more detail? ._.
Although I freely admit the MASON System was poorly explained and you were dropped into it too suddenly, it does its job perfectly - to accurately inform the jury of what Phoenix knows. At no point does Phoenix claim that the MASON System is a historical record. ;)
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Officer 1BDI wrote:
Seriously, though, I was fine with the Mason System until I realized that I had to grab the Taking evidence from the past and using it in the future is one thing, but having to jump from one year to another to obtain profiles and items kind of collapsed the whole system in my mind.
Spoiler:
You have to remember. In the past seven years ago, Phoenix didn't know anything about the nail polish. To Phoenix it was just Vera's favorite brand of nail polish. Not to mention Drew wouldn't let you touch it because it belonged to Vera.
But in the future Kristoph gives you a bottle of the nail polish which you take to the past. It seems incredibly confusing I know, but it's like with 1-5 remember. The piece of leather with Ema's hand print on it was just a piece of cloth until Phoenix proved a real connection to the court. Then only he could present it.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Millini wrote:
WhiteElephant wrote:
mario2000 wrote:
I like to think that Phoenix is a time-traveling genie.
Dude I hate you.
-HAS AN IMAGE OF PHOENIX BEING A GENIE ON A MAGIC CARPET NOW-
Squadalah! We're off!You win this thread
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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WhiteElephant wrote:
You have to remember. In the past seven years ago, Phoenix didn't know anything about the nail polish. To Phoenix it was just Vera's favorite brand of nail polish. Not to mention Drew wouldn't let you touch it because it belonged to Vera.
But in the future Kristoph gives you a bottle of the nail polish which you take to the past. It seems incredibly confusing I know, but it's like with 1-5 remember. The piece of leather with Ema's hand print on it was just a piece of cloth until Phoenix proved a real connection to the court. Then only he could present it.
But in the future Kristoph gives you a bottle of the nail polish which you take to the past. It seems incredibly confusing I know, but it's like with 1-5 remember. The piece of leather with Ema's hand print on it was just a piece of cloth until Phoenix proved a real connection to the court. Then only he could present it.
I like this explanation better than my own actually, although because we're talking about a computer simulation I think mine's a little more accurate. It's probably both, though.
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Azure_Serenade wrote:
Phoenix's hat.
I also finally realized that Ema must have given Phoenix the camera on his hat, look at Young Ema's sprites and you see a similar button. So do you think Ema had a part in the Mason system?
I also finally realized that Ema must have given Phoenix the camera on his hat, look at Young Ema's sprites and you see a similar button.
So do you think Ema had a part in the Mason system?Nick asked her to make a very likely bandage which hide a camera in it for him. It was mentioned in the Japanese official characters' profile.
You can call me whatever you want:3
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
WhiteElephant wrote:
You have to remember. In the past seven years ago, Phoenix didn't know anything about the nail polish. To Phoenix it was just Vera's favorite brand of nail polish. Not to mention Drew wouldn't let you touch it because it belonged to Vera.
But in the future Kristoph gives you a bottle of the nail polish which you take to the past. It seems incredibly confusing I know, but it's like with 1-5 remember. The piece of leather with Ema's hand print on it was just a piece of cloth until Phoenix proved a real connection to the court. Then only he could present it.
But in the future Kristoph gives you a bottle of the nail polish which you take to the past. It seems incredibly confusing I know, but it's like with 1-5 remember. The piece of leather with Ema's hand print on it was just a piece of cloth until Phoenix proved a real connection to the court. Then only he could present it.
I like this explanation better than my own actually, although because we're talking about a computer simulation I think mine's a little more accurate. It's probably both, though.
I thought of another theory, what if
was the one who "solved" the simulation, with the evidence Phoenix collected?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Azure_Serenade wrote:
I thought of another theory, what if was the one who "solved" the simulation, with the evidence Phoenix collected?
was the one who "solved" the simulation, with the evidence Phoenix collected?The ending implies this is true. Happily, this explanation doesn't contradict mine nor WhiteElephant's. It's almost definitely all three.
I still think people would be moaning about the MASON System a lot less if they'd bothered to explain it properly rather than just drop you in it out of the blue.
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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...also known as falsifying evidence.
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
The simplest explanation for the inconsistencies and impossibilities is that Phoenix was editing the footage to display how he thought they could have reacted.
...also known as falsifying evidence.
...also known as falsifying evidence.
Kind of overdid it though, if he did. But still, he was right about everything in the end.
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I liked the Mason System. Had a few problems with it, but I think it was a cool and new way to handle things.
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Azure_Serenade wrote:
CantFaketheFunk wrote:
The simplest explanation for the inconsistencies and impossibilities is that Phoenix was editing the footage to display how he thought they could have reacted.
...also known as falsifying evidence.
...also known as falsifying evidence.
Kind of overdid it though, if he did. But still, he was right about everything in the end.
No other way for him to represent Zak's reaction to a photo Phoenix didn't get until after his death, or him presenting the nail polish to Vera when at the time he wouldn't have even suspected it being anything other than normal nail polish. Forged evidence, hooray!
And he was right, sure. Adrian was right about Matt, too. And Joe Darke WAS a serial killer, so Lana was in a way also right.
What if he'd been wrong?
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Azure_Serenade wrote:
CantFaketheFunk wrote:
The simplest explanation for the inconsistencies and impossibilities is that Phoenix was editing the footage to display how he thought they could have reacted.
...also known as falsifying evidence.
...also known as falsifying evidence.
Kind of overdid it though, if he did. But still, he was right about everything in the end.
No other way for him to represent Zak's reaction to a photo Phoenix didn't get until after his death, or him presenting the nail polish to Vera when at the time he wouldn't have even suspected it being anything other than normal nail polish. Forged evidence, hooray!
And he was right, sure. Adrian was right about Matt, too. And Joe Darke WAS a serial killer, so Lana was in a way also right.
What if he'd been wrong?
Oh, please. The whole MASON System was a "fake"? Phoenix "forged" and invented it all? Evidence that he did. Evidence why he did. Does the game give us any indication to believe that what we see in the MASON System was false? Or is the HUGE REVELATION in GS5 going to be that our hero from the first three games of the series, whom Capcom has done a painstaking job of making us like, is actually an unscrupulous, dishonest bastard?
Is Lamiroir also a fake?Adrian was wrong about Matt, technically. Matt didn't commit a murder, he was implicated in a murder-for-hire. Adrian obstructed justice by altering the crime scene itself and framing Matt for a crime he didn't commit. Matt was found guilty of murder-for-hire, but not because of anything Adrian did. She was still so enamored of Celeste, she was getting back at Matt for Celeste's sake.
And Joe Darke was going to be convicted of murder regardless of "evidence." The guy got into a traffic accident, killed the other driver, then killed all the witnesses...in broad daylight. In the middle of the street. Yeah, he was going down anyway. HARD.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Quote:
Or is the HUGE REVELATION in GS5 going to be that our hero from the first three games of the series, whom Capcom has done a painstaking job of making us like, is actually an unscrupulous, dishonest bastard?
You mean that wasn't the huge revelation in this game? >_> Phoenix in AA4 is *hugely* shady morally and does some very, very unscrupulous things. If they were trying to make me like him in this game, they failed catastrophically.
Quote:
The whole MASON System was a "fake"? Phoenix "forged" and invented it all? Evidence that he did. Evidence why he did. Does the game give us any indication to believe that what we see in the MASON System was false?
Not all of it, no. In fact, not most of it. But at least some of it.
Phoenix would have had no reason to be suspicious of Vera's bottle of nail polish in the past; for all he knew it was just her favorite nail polish. So he couldn't have presented it to her like he did.
Phoenix didn't get the photograph of Thalassa from Brushel until long after Zak's death. So how could he present it to him in Borscht Bowl?
Is Phoenix a time traveler now?
The only explanation that makes sense even given the plotholetacular writing of the game is that Phoenix altered the video to present the data he assumed would happen. Sure, now that he knew the nail polish was Kristoph's, he could assume what Vera said. Or assume Zak's reaction to Thalassa's photo.
But he couldn't have done it in reality.
He forged the evidence, just like he did in 4-1 with the bloody ace. Only this time, he was able to present it to the jury directly without either of the attorneys there to object.
Yes, it's a happy ending because it's a game and he ended up being right. But who's to say, really?
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
You mean that wasn't the huge revelation in this game? >_> Phoenix in AA4 is *hugely* shady morally and does some very, very unscrupulous things.
IMO, He was in the right. Say what you will, he was in the right. I still don't care for his "far-out" personality (he seemed more "stoned" than mellow, if you ask me), but he did the "right" thing. Legally shady? Yes. But the "right" thing to do? Absolutely. Remember what Phoenix was all about in the first games: Finding the truth, no matter how painful it was. He replicated evidence he knew existed already to stop a dangerous criminal whom he knew was cunning and extremely intelligent. I'm not shedding a tear for poor Kristoph.
CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Not all of it, no. In fact, not most of it. But at least some of it.
Phoenix would have had no reason to be suspicious of Vera's bottle of nail polish in the past; for all he knew it was just her favorite nail polish. So he couldn't have presented it to her like he did.
Phoenix didn't get the photograph of Thalassa from Brushel until long after Zak's death. So how could he present it to him in Borscht Bowl?
Is Phoenix a time traveler now?
The only explanation that makes sense even given the plotholetacular writing of the game is that Phoenix altered the video to present the data he assumed would happen. Sure, now that he knew the nail polish was Kristoph's, he could assume what Vera said. Or assume Zak's reaction to Thalassa's photo.
But he couldn't have done it in reality.
He forged the evidence, just like he did in 4-1 with the bloody ace. Only this time, he was able to present it to the jury directly without either of the attorneys there to object.
Yes, it's a happy ending because it's a game and he ended up being right. But who's to say, really?
Phoenix would have had no reason to be suspicious of Vera's bottle of nail polish in the past; for all he knew it was just her favorite nail polish. So he couldn't have presented it to her like he did.
Phoenix didn't get the photograph of Thalassa from Brushel until long after Zak's death. So how could he present it to him in Borscht Bowl?
Is Phoenix a time traveler now?
The only explanation that makes sense even given the plotholetacular writing of the game is that Phoenix altered the video to present the data he assumed would happen. Sure, now that he knew the nail polish was Kristoph's, he could assume what Vera said. Or assume Zak's reaction to Thalassa's photo.
But he couldn't have done it in reality.
He forged the evidence, just like he did in 4-1 with the bloody ace. Only this time, he was able to present it to the jury directly without either of the attorneys there to object.
Yes, it's a happy ending because it's a game and he ended up being right. But who's to say, really?
I think it's more likely that the MASON System (like the majority of AA4) was poorly thought-out than Phoenix really "forged" it (how would he be able to "forge" a video without being trained in electronics? How could he record the events of something that didn't happen? He would have had to get footage from scratch somehow). Especially since they spent almost the entire-game hero-worshipping him.
The best answer is probably to forget that this "MASON System" exists in the first place. It's a "simulation"...that's real? And somehow a jury interface? It just doesn't make sense either way. I'd just chalk it up to poor writing and plotting.
Ah, but hell if I know. I'm just waiting for another JFA.
Last edited by Writer Awakened on Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Writer Awakened wrote:
He was in the right. Say what you will, he was in the right. I still don't care for his "far-out" personality (he seemed more "stoned" than mellow, if you ask me), but he did the "right" thing. Legally shady? Yes. But the "right" thing to do? Absolutely. Remember what Phoenix was all about in the first games: Finding the truth, no matter how painful it was. He replicated evidence he knew existed already to stop a dangerous criminal whom he knew was cunning and extremely intelligent. I'm not shedding a tear for poor Kristoph.
Well I'm glad you're not in charge of the legal system then, to be honest. :/
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Writer Awakened wrote:
He was in the right. Say what you will, he was in the right. I still don't care for his "far-out" personality (he seemed more "stoned" than mellow, if you ask me), but he did the "right" thing. Legally shady? Yes. But the "right" thing to do? Absolutely. Remember what Phoenix was all about in the first games: Finding the truth, no matter how painful it was. He replicated evidence he knew existed already to stop a dangerous criminal whom he knew was cunning and extremely intelligent. I'm not shedding a tear for poor Kristoph.
Well I'm glad you're not in charge of the legal system then, to be honest. :/
Hey...I felt sorry for Kristoph...T_T
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Writer Awakened wrote:
Remember what Phoenix was all about in the first games: Finding the truth, no matter how painful it was. He replicated evidence he knew existed already to stop a dangerous criminal whom he knew was cunning and extremely intelligent. I'm not shedding a tear for poor Kristoph.
Finding the truth, not deciding the truth. Did you even play 2-4?
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Writer Awakened wrote:
He was in the right. Say what you will, he was in the right. I still don't care for his "far-out" personality (he seemed more "stoned" than mellow, if you ask me), but he did the "right" thing. Legally shady? Yes. But the "right" thing to do? Absolutely. Remember what Phoenix was all about in the first games: Finding the truth, no matter how painful it was. He replicated evidence he knew existed already to stop a dangerous criminal whom he knew was cunning and extremely intelligent. I'm not shedding a tear for poor Kristoph.
Well I'm glad you're not in charge of the legal system then, to be honest. :/
Hey, everybody has a right to their opinion. Still, IMO, it wasn't as if he was forging evidence just to get his client off (i.e. what he was accused of doing during the Gramarye case)
Anyway,
: Ace Attorney (well, 
: Ace Attorney). Not real life. In real life, things are a lot different.That being said, I'm glad I'm not in charge of the legal system either.
musouka wrote:
Finding the truth, not deciding the truth. Did you even play 2-4?
Yes.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Now, even if you say that everything said and discovered in the system was really said and discovered, the abridged nature not only causes inconsistencies within the system, but keeps it from being 100% honest even if all the “important stuff” is true. It also should not have been shown to the jury without both representatives at least knowing it’s contents (and considering how Apollo acts, he doesn’t), if at all, but then again, AA court proceedings never made much sense...
The worst part about the system is that it had the potential to be one of the coolest and most well thought out investigation phases ever, and it wasn’t even close to that, it became the two glowing orbs of plot exposition, and broke the forth wall under the guise of talking to the jury, in order to make explaining gaps in the story easier for the writers, which caused it to backfire and made it’s very use seem wrong.
However, I found it quite fun to play through, and it wasn’t until I took the time to really think about it afterwards that I realized how messed up it is. I don’t think Phoenix did much faking evidence (in this) or speculation of “what if”, but I think that the shortening it into the 8 keys did harm to what credibility we can give it.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
If Phoenix takes this bottle as evidence, Vera could not become critically ill on the stand nor would she be able to leave the house without becoming hysterical.
I believe it's quite obvious that they don't always TAKE them as evidence. I'd imagine it'd be quite difficult to conceal a massive noodle stand in court without it becoming a distraction. And that great massive Bear from 4-2... I think Matt would have acted a little differently had it been staring him blatantly in the face where Phoenix was actually carrying it around with him. Besides that you can still see the bear and noodle stand in the background after you "take" them as evidence.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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The first idea to throw out is the idea that he needed the evidence to get these reactions. He clearly knew Gavin, and very likely began to suspect his involvement right away (Gavin gets pulled off a case, and suddenly his brother's finding a piece of forged evidence that Phoenix himself had only been aware of for 15 minutes, and then having the forger of that evidence ready to testify that day? Even Gumshoe's warning signals would be going off after that one.) All he'd need to do is suspect Gavin, find out from Drew Misham that Vera spoke to the client, see how touchy Drew was about the bottle, and have Vera tell him that the client gave her the good luck charm to piece that particular element together, and we've seen in prior games that Feenie's good with the logical leaps. He'd be able to get to that conclusion.
However, there is no "Gavin Law Offices" 7 years ago scene, because that'd be there just to see the bottle, and you'd still need to run into Kristoph in the future to incorporate other information. It's just easier, for the purpose of having the jury follow along, to show them the bottle that was already in the cell. No forging, no lying. Just a simplifying reconstruction.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
Jammin' like it's 2024
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The existing AA legal system has difficulty establishing motives and intentions without concrete evidence. The new jury system exists as a means to convict someone even if the evidence is not entirely conclusive. The MASON System exists to provide an environmental representation to the evidence to give it greater meaning than can be presented in the clinical environment of a courtroom. It's also important to remember that the trial is a test run, so there's no way it'll be a perfect, smooth run-through either. CantFakeTheFunk's argument hinges on their personal opinion that only the evidence matters in a trial, which AJ goes out of its way to attempt to prove is at best extremely problematic and at worst, utter horseshit.
It's also easy to forget that the jury were watching the trial as well as using the MASON System; both systems are meant to work in a tandem to provide a fuller picture of the case. Making a perfect reproduction of history is impossible and also not the point of the MASON System, so calling out its inaccuracies is pointless. Everyone's treating the MASON System like a regular investigation - it isn't, it's something else entirely. Looks like the point went over a lot of peoples' heads. :(
I suspect that someone who plays Ace Attorney 4 without playing the first three will have far fewer issues with the MASON System. This entire argument smacks of the fans getting too comfortable in the series' little rut and I'm guilty of it as well. I'm going to withhold detailed analysis of the MASON System until I've replayed the case. The first time around I was too ecstatic seeing the Psyche-Locks back to care about the potential "plotholes". :P
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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CantFaketheFunk wrote:
Some might argue that a 'simplifying reconstruction' IS forging evidence. As in, it's not presenting exactly what happened.
That argument fails as soon as you accept that the MASON system isn't evidence at all. It functions more like Phoenix's testimony than anything else, and testimony is an accepted method of proving a case.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
俺の黄金の魔女
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Dilbert719 wrote:
That argument fails as soon as you accept that the MASON system isn't evidence at all. It functions more like Phoenix's testimony than anything else, and testimony is an accepted method of proving a case.
Then his testimony is full of contradictions. "Contradictions" in testimonies in PW-land means "lying", thus he's still manipulating evidence.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Dilbert719 wrote:
It functions more like Phoenix's testimony than anything else
The MASON System isn't testimony either, simply because what goes on within the system is not what actually happened. If it were testimony, it would be useless in a court of law.
I stand by my statement that the MASON System is a feelings gauge. It's clearly stated during the trial that a jury system injects common sense into court proceedings, which is a major weakness of the AA legal system up to that point.
Does we even do these things anymore?
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
The MASON System isn't testimony either, simply because what goes on within the system is not what actually happened. If it were testimony, it would be useless in a court of law.
Great idea!
Let's base our trials on things that didn't actually happen!
...yeah... >_>
Quote:
which AJ goes out of its way to attempt to prove is at best extremely problematic and at worst, utter horseshit.
And fails miserably in doing so.
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Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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Asura Velotix wrote:
Dilbert719 wrote:
It functions more like Phoenix's testimony than anything else
The MASON System isn't testimony either, simply because what goes on within the system is not what actually happened. If it were testimony, it would be useless in a court of law.
I stand by my statement that the MASON System is a feelings gauge. It's clearly stated during the trial that a jury system injects common sense into court proceedings, which is a major weakness of the AA legal system up to that point.
That's why I said "functions more like". It's not exactly a testimony, and it's damn sure not hard evidence; it's a deus ex machina used to save the writers some time and trouble at our expense. The writers chose to dump a whole bunch of information into our laps, information they could have given to us by letting us have an investigation phase as Phoenix (with the writing tightened up), but they didn't want to go that route. I suppose they thought "Ooh, time travel, everyone loves that," and gleefully took the easy way out.
Either way, there is no forging of evidence, because there is no evidence in the MASON system. It's a reconstruction of Phoenix's investigation, rewritten with an army of plot holes.
Re: Making sense of the Mason System and...(spoilers)
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The Mason system made no sense from a logical standpoint due to the time skipping and evidence swapping. As has been mentioned, all it was was a vehicle for the writers to exposition the convoulted plot they'd weaved. We'd have been better served if Capcom had just made the flashback case just that, a flashback. As well as the following Investigation phase. Skip back to the present and you have an Investigation phase there that's also a "flashback" of sorts as Phoenix fills Apollo in. The exact same basic facts could have been provided like that in the traditional style of the series gameplay and it would have avoided the nonsensical Mason system.
I think AJ tried to change the gameplay far too much from the AA standard. I'm all for mixing things up a bit, but Capcom failed hard here. I think there is some promise, but it needs a LOT of work.
I don't know WHAT the Mason system was suppose to be. A "game" for the Jury? Lazy plot dump? The fact everyone has thier own opinion on it is proof enough Capcom just didn't think this through very well.
I honestly just prefer the way the games have played till now. Decisive evidence isn't a problem if the stories are written so that you HAVE it when you need it to win the case, and up till now, they have been and they've been great (we do love the games, right?). That's my 2 cents on the Mason System.
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