Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
To be honest, I feel like Ace Attorney is somewhat damned if they do, damned if they don't with all of the characters they've brought into the spotlight at this point. If they were to just leave Trucy out (or Pearls/Klavier by extension) people would be complaining about those characters not appearing. If they do bring them in, it's hard to do so with them having meaningful roles unless you're going to make the game much, much longer (to get enough screen time to fit all them in), and that would probably just become artificial extension.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
I totally agree here, and don't get me wrong I'm not saying I'm really upset about Trucy's characterization. It might just be a little annoying if she just became a character with one punchline that repeats over and over again. It has to do more with how it's written, not screentime. I'm overjoyed Trucy and Klavier are in this game.
And also, once again, I haven't actually played DD yet, so I probably shouldn't even be commenting about things until I actually have a stance on them!
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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I HATE IT HA HA HA I HATE IT I HATE IT *suffers a horrific nervous breakdown*
Holy shit this game, my heart is in bits. I can't think straight at the moment because I literally just finished the game and it's after 3am but WOW this game is definitely one of the best in the series
Spoiler: full game spoilers
The AA series are the only games that can get me that emotional, UGH.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Louise wrote:
I HATE IT
I HATE IT HA HA HA I HATE IT I HATE IT *suffers a horrific nervous breakdown*
Holy shit this game, my heart is in bits. I can't think straight at the moment because I literally just finished the game and it's after 3am but WOW this game is definitely one of the best in the series
I HATE IT HA HA HA I HATE IT I HATE IT *suffers a horrific nervous breakdown*
Holy shit this game, my heart is in bits. I can't think straight at the moment because I literally just finished the game and it's after 3am but WOW this game is definitely one of the best in the series
At first I thought you meant that you hated the game. I was really scared for a while.
But yeah I know how that is. I'm going to be limiting how much of this game I can play each day because I want to savor it and I always go through AA games too fast. Especially since this might be the last one we get (although DD is doing pretty well so it might be looking good for us).
I used to have Sam Waterston as my avatar but photobucket added a watermark and also Law & Order has been cancelled for 10 years so it's time for me to move on.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler:
"I can't go to hell, little weirdo. I'm all out of vacation days."
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
While I'm here, I seem to remember someone saying that they thought playing as Phoenix was different from interacting with Phoenix as another character because Phoenix as a lawyer was much more sarcastic. So to that end...here's some screenshots of Phoenix being sarcastic while not being played.
Spoiler:
AJ-era Phoenix is awesome. So glad they kept parts of his relaxed, sarcastic personality in this game. The demo made it seem like he was back to the GS1 era.
I used to have Sam Waterston as my avatar but photobucket added a watermark and also Law & Order has been cancelled for 10 years so it's time for me to move on.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
To be honest, I feel like Ace Attorney is somewhat damned if they do, damned if they don't with all of the characters they've brought into the spotlight at this point. If they were to just leave Trucy out (or Pearls/Klavier by extension) people would be complaining about those characters not appearing. If they do bring them in, it's hard to do so with them having meaningful roles unless you're going to make the game much, much longer (to get enough screen time to fit all them in), and that would probably just become artificial extension.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
To me, the problem isn't that they were basically cameos. The problem is that they were featured heavily in advertising, but were basically cameos. It feels like the only reason those characters were in the game to put them in advertising to get fans to buy the game, which is pretty low and misleading.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
While I'm here, I seem to remember someone saying that they thought playing as Phoenix was different from interacting with Phoenix as another character because Phoenix as a lawyer was much more sarcastic. So to that end...here's some screenshots of Phoenix being sarcastic while not being played.
Spoiler:
It seems they have balanced out his lawyer-persona and his hobo one well. Also, Phoenix' sarcastic-sprite is so sweet and awesome. So that's what he looked like all those times in GS1,2,3 while he was making/thinking snarky remarks? The aww.
(......Ack! I've run out of snide comments!)
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
To be honest, I feel like Ace Attorney is somewhat damned if they do, damned if they don't with all of the characters they've brought into the spotlight at this point. If they were to just leave Trucy out (or Pearls/Klavier by extension) people would be complaining about those characters not appearing. If they do bring them in, it's hard to do so with them having meaningful roles unless you're going to make the game much, much longer (to get enough screen time to fit all them in), and that would probably just become artificial extension.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
To me, the problem isn't that they were basically cameos. The problem is that they were featured heavily in advertising, but were basically cameos. It feels like the only reason those characters were in the game to put them in advertising to get fans to buy the game, which is pretty low and misleading.
Well I wouldn't say heavily featured, they were just teases in the background shots amongst like 50 others in one of the trailers?
Though yeah it's a bit of a dirty trick I suppose, they want to satisfy fans of the original trilogy and AJ by showing that they haven't forgotten about the characters totally. Still Trucy is marginalised (though Rubia I think you'll find the 'magic tricks' she talks about mostly involve her panties) and well...I thought Klavier's inclusion was ok at least. He served a relevant purpose and...even though it came off as horribly fanservice, you did get to see him behind the prosecution bench.
As for Pearl I've not seen her yet, just starting case 5 now so she'll show up sometime.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Louise wrote:
I HATE IT
I HATE IT HA HA HA I HATE IT I HATE IT *suffers a horrific nervous breakdown*
Holy shit this game, my heart is in bits. I can't think straight at the moment because I literally just finished the game and it's after 3am but WOW this game is definitely one of the best in the series
The AA series are the only games that can get me that emotional, UGH.
I HATE IT HA HA HA I HATE IT I HATE IT *suffers a horrific nervous breakdown*
Holy shit this game, my heart is in bits. I can't think straight at the moment because I literally just finished the game and it's after 3am but WOW this game is definitely one of the best in the series
Spoiler: full game spoilers
The AA series are the only games that can get me that emotional, UGH.
Spoiler:
"Descole? You don't mean Mr. I-Like-to-Wreck-Things-with-Mechanical-Monsters-and-Dress-Up-as-Posh-Ladies Descole?" -Emmy Altava
...NAILED IT
...NAILED IT
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Cream147 wrote:
It seems like Capcom took the route of trying to please everyone with the old characters they included, and in doing so managed to disappoint everyone by not giving them any role at all. They could definitely have found room for one of Klavier/Pearls to have a more extensive role in the game, or at least one of the cases.
Well, as for Pearls...
Spoiler:
As for others, the only thing I could potentially think to do with Trucy, for example, would have been to...
Spoiler:
...which all things considered, I would have preferred them do. It would have built up some excellent tension for the final showdown, and perhaps you could have discovered
Spoiler:
on your own. That said, it's certainly not a choice I would have them make for the simple reason of making a cameo appearance drag on for a bit. Though it really wouldn't have given anyone that major of a role, maybe Pearls or Trucy has another 30 or so minutes as a partner, and that's it.
Capcom went with the route of putting these cameos in the game because of the backlash they got from particularly AJ, and to a lesser extent from just sticking Phoenix in a couple of background shots in Investigations 1 and 2. Fans would have been screaming over what happened to Pearl if she hadn't appeared, and unfortunately, Dual Destinies' plot is full enough to the point where it would be really, really hard to find a place to include her, or Trucy, or, say, Ema or Maya, where any of them could have a reasonable contribution. I honestly think they did the best they could have (with the exception of my earlier spoilered gripe, but that's less of wanting to view a particular character and more of a wanting to extend a certain case) in terms of giving characters the time they could to appear in the game.
As for the advertisement...I'll give you that Trucy was probably a bit over-advertised considering her role. But Klavier and Pearls were pretty much confirmed to be one case only appearances, and it's a little hard to pull off any meaningful contribution to the story when you appear for one case only and aren't serving as the prosecutor/involved in the actual crime.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
To be honest, I feel like Ace Attorney is somewhat damned if they do, damned if they don't with all of the characters they've brought into the spotlight at this point. If they were to just leave Trucy out (or Pearls/Klavier by extension) people would be complaining about those characters not appearing. If they do bring them in, it's hard to do so with them having meaningful roles unless you're going to make the game much, much longer (to get enough screen time to fit all them in), and that would probably just become artificial extension.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
To me, the problem isn't that they were basically cameos. The problem is that they were featured heavily in advertising, but were basically cameos. It feels like the only reason those characters were in the game to put them in advertising to get fans to buy the game, which is pretty low and misleading.
And as I've said, I felt like AA5 was a bit of a copout because of how they advertised it. "Phoenix is back as the protagonist, and he will meet his new rival in court as well as meeting Klavier and Edgeworth" They advertised the characters as if they had a role in the plot and that's a direct slap in the face to their audience because it's a blatant lie IMO. Also didn't Eshiro pick the returning cast before they even came up with drafts for the story? I heard as much and TBH I'm starting to really dislike that guy. He's a marketing tool. Anything he ever talked about in interviews was advertising the graphics and animation in the game. He literally said the same thing in all the interview I've seen with him. What a tool.
This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler: ENDING SPOILERS (EDIT: Pretty much looby's thoughts, actually)
With regards to the game itself - the dialogue was top-notch (although let down by the seriously apparent lack of editing), the cases were fairly interesting for the most part and the characters were actually all pretty likable: Special shout-out to Athena for being a side-kick who had genuine impact on cases herself, and Yuri Cosmos for being an overall awesome character, from his hammy war-general dialogue ("This will be the greatest testimony ever recorded in history books!" etc. etc.) to his downright hilarious reactions.
As for what I didn't like: As has been mentioned a hundred times already, I really miss being able to explore "every nook and cranny" simply for the extra character interaction. Also, the difficulty in localising case 2 was a bit too apparent, and I really wish they had another take on the whole youkai thing.
End of the day it was another great AA game, and now I've got a pretty gaping void in my life now that I've finished it. Bring on the DLC...
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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linkenski wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
To be honest, I feel like Ace Attorney is somewhat damned if they do, damned if they don't with all of the characters they've brought into the spotlight at this point. If they were to just leave Trucy out (or Pearls/Klavier by extension) people would be complaining about those characters not appearing. If they do bring them in, it's hard to do so with them having meaningful roles unless you're going to make the game much, much longer (to get enough screen time to fit all them in), and that would probably just become artificial extension.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
Personally, I think the the route DD took, which is to show them in passing but without a major role at all, is preferable to leaving them out entirely. Even if it is just a brief cameo or having them occupy the office for a bit, it's better to acknowledge their existence than to pull an Apollo Justice and try to just pretend they don't exist.
To me, the problem isn't that they were basically cameos. The problem is that they were featured heavily in advertising, but were basically cameos. It feels like the only reason those characters were in the game to put them in advertising to get fans to buy the game, which is pretty low and misleading.
And as I've said, I felt like AA5 was a bit of a copout because of how they advertised it. "Phoenix is back as the protagonist, and he will meet his new rival in court as well as meeting Klavier and Edgeworth" They advertised the characters as if they had a role in the plot and that's a direct slap in the face to their audience because it's a blatant lie IMO. Also didn't Eshiro pick the returning cast before they even came up with drafts for the story? I heard as much and TBH I'm starting to really dislike that guy. He's a marketing tool. Anything he ever talked about in interviews was advertising the graphics and animation in the game. He literally said the same thing in all the interview I've seen with him. What a tool.
...I don't think I'd go THAT far. I certainly didn't watch much of the interviews, but the majority of the advertising revolved around Phoenix, Apollo, Athena, and Blackquill; the four main characters in the game. Heck, they didn't even announce Klavier and Pearls until like a month before the game released in Japan. At least from my perspective, the game (particularly via trailers) was about the four main characters first, and the cameo appearances second.
The only appearances Klavier, Pearl, and Trucy made in the trailers at all was in a few brief passing animations. They never dressed them up as the main characters, just that they were people you'd run into.
I guess I can understand people complaining about not playing as Phoenix as much when it was, early on, marketed as Phoenix's return to law, but the guy gets probably as much of the game in the main character's role as he did in T&T, and he gets a DLC case to boot as well. And to be fair, at the point when the game was announced, they probably didn't know exactly how the cases with Athena and Apollo would go down, so those would have been difficult to show off as well.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Athena: Guess we left you in the dust? Huh Boss?
Sadly I'm starting to come round to the idea that the 'Athena-focus' is dragging everything down
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Pierre wrote:
Athena: Scooch over Apollo!
Athena: Guess we left you in the dust? Huh Boss?
Sadly I'm starting to come round to the idea that the 'Athena-focus' is dragging everything down
Athena: Guess we left you in the dust? Huh Boss?
Sadly I'm starting to come round to the idea that the 'Athena-focus' is dragging everything down
I certainly don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm starting come to around to the idea that everyone upset over the so called "Athena-focus" has completely forgotten how the other Ace Attorney games did character development in the first place.
It's almost always been some new character (or, at least, in the case of AJ, an old character with a seemingly completely new personality) coming in and hogging most of the character development spotlight. Ace Attorney games almost never develop the main protagonist as much as the two other characters.
Coming into this game, there were two main protagonist characters who needed lots of development: Athena, who was fresh to the series, and Apollo, who was barely a character at the end of AJ. To that end, Apollo got the third largest amount of the time focused on him (I'd argue Simon Blackquill was second), and Athena got the most.
It's not as if Athena has showed up to kick Phoenix and Apollo out of the office. The next game certainly won't be as based around her character as this one was.
This is another situation where I feel Ace Attorney is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they spend time focusing on Phoenix and the characters we already know, they end up with the new characters being a blank slate like Apollo after AJ. If they spend time to develop them, then people whine about them taking away all the attention.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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First, non-plot specs: I finished the game at 34 hours on the dot. I echo others' sentiments that it felt like a short game, probably due to the hyperlinear style DD has taken--getting rid of the aimless wandering about during investigations, and allowing you to only inspect scenes relevant to the crime at hand. This last addition irked me somewhat--I enjoyed inspecting every object I could in the previous games, just to hear the characters' opinions on them. It made the world feel more real, IMO.
There were a few typos--I didn't notice as many as were mentioned here, but that may be because I was too excited to notice ;'). One I remember is Trucy saying "Dadddy" at some point, though that's all that comes to mind. No glitches on my part.
The music was superb! Definitely on par with T&Ts creativity, with the quality of the newer DS soundtracks. Athena's objection theme, Courtroom Révolutionnaire, is the standout objection tune here, though I also appreciated the Gyakuten meets Orchestra inspired flare added to Apollo's theme [and his out-of-court theme was pretty nice as well]. Phoenix's theme excited me as well, but that may have just been the nostalgia factor. In terms of the court suite, the new Cornered theme ranks among my top 3 now. L'Belle's theme was like if Atmey's theme [already great] got an upgrade--very excellent. The clarinet on Simon's theme is addictive, and I like the minimalist take on Trucy's theme this time around.
The animation floored me. I was one of the skeptics when it came to the newer 3D models and I came in expecting the soul to be sucked out of the characters' movements. I was pleasently surprised by the fluidity and weight given to the characters--though a few motions could benefit from crisper animation, I appreciated the ability for characters to actually /transition/ between emotions naturally, instead of a "reset" between moods. Athena and Apollo's models especially stand out here. The actual Studio BONES animated sequences were a bit awkward at times--some QUALITY facial expressions and questionable proportions at times. Hand sizes in close-ups especially have the tendency to fluctuate between ok and tiny. The voice acting was rather stilted, which, considering the length of the clips, is to be expected.
I felt like Phoenix's character was somewhat confused. It felt like they were /trying/ to fuse his AJ personality and original personality together, but it was unsuccessful and honestly felt like two different Phoenixes. I think Apollo was my favorite returning character. I'm indifferent towards Athena--I felt like, ultimately, DD is her story, which I didn't mind for the most part, and her personality was realistic as well. Regardless, she never much grew on me beyond a few obligatory sad moments later in the game, but I loved using the Mood Matrix, which I felt injected some character development into side characters that were otherwise meh. Likewise, Simon was...ok. Not great, not bad, just ok. Loved his design, but I felt the localization team did a poor job of pinning down his quirks. I'm subscribing to the British samurai weeb theory, but the Victorian era language seemed largely unnecessary. My absolute favorite new addition was Bobby Fulbright, who I found grating at first, but he grew on me as the cases wore on.
Spoiler: Case 5 spoiler
Cases 4 and 5 were the best cases, hand down, and Yuri Cosmos is amusing as hell. Cases 3 and 2 felt like being complicated for the sake of being complicated and less like carefully thought out murders. I found the characters in 2 and 3 to be largely unsympathetic until the very, very end, where the game would managed to make me like them anyway--the Tenmas, Hugh, and Means being the foremost examples here.
Spoiler: Case 3 spoilers
Showing who the villain was from Case 2 at the start of the case took all the fun out of solving it, and
Spoiler: Case 4 and 5, minor spoiler
RETURN OF THE JEDI STRIPES.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Athena: Scooch over Apollo!
Athena: Guess we left you in the dust? Huh Boss?
Sadly I'm starting to come round to the idea that the 'Athena-focus' is dragging everything down
Athena: Guess we left you in the dust? Huh Boss?
Sadly I'm starting to come round to the idea that the 'Athena-focus' is dragging everything down
I certainly don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm starting come to around to the idea that everyone upset over the so called "Athena-focus" has completely forgotten how the other Ace Attorney games did character development in the first place.
It's almost always been some new character (or, at least, in the case of AJ, an old character with a seemingly completely new personality) coming in and hogging most of the character development spotlight. Ace Attorney games almost never develop the main protagonist as much as the two other characters.
Coming into this game, there were two main protagonist characters who needed lots of development: Athena, who was fresh to the series, and Apollo, who was barely a character at the end of AJ. To that end, Apollo got the third largest amount of the time focused on him (I'd argue Simon Blackquill was second), and Athena got the most.
It's not as if Athena has showed up to kick Phoenix and Apollo out of the office. The next game certainly won't be as based around her character as this one was.
This is another situation where I feel Ace Attorney is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they spend time focusing on Phoenix and the characters we already know, they end up with the new characters being a blank slate like Apollo after AJ. If they spend time to develop them, then people whine about them taking away all the attention.
I don't think the problem here is that Athena got the most development; it's that she just came out of nowhere.
In AA, Edgey was the whole reason Nick became a lawyer (plus it's the first game). In JFA, Franzy was Edgey's sister, and she was there directly as a result of the events of the first game. (Nick and Edgey also got development, and they're obv important.) In T&T, Godot is connected through the Fey family, whose connection with Nick is strengthened through a retcon (3-1), and by cases from both previous games. In AJ, Nick was the main protagonist of the series for the previous three games. In DD, Athena... comes out of nowhere without any sort of connection to the previous games at all. In other words, it doesn't feel like Athena "deserves" the development, as opposed to a character who has some tie to a previously-established storyline.
Credit to Evolina for the sig+avatar!
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Athena: Scooch over Apollo!
Athena: Guess we left you in the dust? Huh Boss?
Sadly I'm starting to come round to the idea that the 'Athena-focus' is dragging everything down
Athena: Guess we left you in the dust? Huh Boss?
Sadly I'm starting to come round to the idea that the 'Athena-focus' is dragging everything down
I certainly don't mean to be disrespectful, but I'm starting come to around to the idea that everyone upset over the so called "Athena-focus" has completely forgotten how the other Ace Attorney games did character development in the first place.
It's almost always been some new character (or, at least, in the case of AJ, an old character with a seemingly completely new personality) coming in and hogging most of the character development spotlight. Ace Attorney games almost never develop the main protagonist as much as the two other characters.
Coming into this game, there were two main protagonist characters who needed lots of development: Athena, who was fresh to the series, and Apollo, who was barely a character at the end of AJ. To that end, Apollo got the third largest amount of the time focused on him (I'd argue Simon Blackquill was second), and Athena got the most.
It's not as if Athena has showed up to kick Phoenix and Apollo out of the office. The next game certainly won't be as based around her character as this one was.
This is another situation where I feel Ace Attorney is damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they spend time focusing on Phoenix and the characters we already know, they end up with the new characters being a blank slate like Apollo after AJ. If they spend time to develop them, then people whine about them taking away all the attention.
I don't think the problem here is that Athena got the most development; it's that she just came out of nowhere.
In AA, Edgey was the whole reason Nick became a lawyer (plus it's the first game). In JFA, Franzy was Edgey's sister, and she was there directly as a result of the events of the first game. (Nick and Edgey also got development, and they're obv important.) In T&T, Godot is connected through the Fey family, whose connection with Nick is strengthened through a retcon (3-1), and by cases from both previous games. In AJ, Nick was the main protagonist of the series for the previous three games. In DD, Athena... comes out of nowhere without any sort of connection to the previous games at all. In other words, it doesn't feel like Athena "deserves" the development, as opposed to a character who has some tie to a previously-established storyline.
Yes I feel like it should have been a game more about Apollo, to fill in a bit more about his blanks in his past and perhaps the secret family connections. Granted he does get some substantial development it is sort of...sidelined by Athena and some issues for Apollo are just never really looked at (like what the hell actually happened to him after he was given up?).
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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GreenStripes wrote:
Cases 4 and 5 were the best cases, hand down, and Yuri Cosmos is amusing as hell. Cases 3 and 2 felt like being complicated for the sake of being complicated and less like carefully thought out murders
Right, that was exactly my problem with them. It felt like they were written 'as they went along' with a whole ton of fridge logic, but if you sit down and actually think about the setup with the 'correct' culprit and explanation, ignoring all the twists, it makes absolutely no damn sense, especially in Case 3.
Spoiler: Case 3 major spoilers
On the upside, I'm into case 5 now, and Yuri Cosmos is a frickin' awesome character. Though the plot is looking pretty ridiculous again.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Pierre wrote:
Yes I feel like it should have been a game more about Apollo, to fill in a bit more about his blanks in his past and perhaps the secret family connections. Granted he does get some substantial development it is sort of...sidelined by Athena and some issues for Apollo are just never really looked at (like what the hell actually happened to him after he was given up?).
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Well, Klavier and Franzy were never the main focus of character development, and Godot was splitting time with Mia Fey/the rest of the Fey Family, so...
I will say that Athena probably underwent more character development (and by extension, was focused on the most) in the span of a single game than any other single character in the Ace Attorney series, but considering the main storyline of DD is essentially her story, I don't really see that as a problem.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Yes I feel like it should have been a game more about Apollo, to fill in a bit more about his blanks in his past and perhaps the secret family connections. Granted he does get some substantial development it is sort of...sidelined by Athena and some issues for Apollo are just never really looked at (like what the hell actually happened to him after he was given up?).
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Well, Klavier and Franzy were never the main focus of character development, and Godot was splitting time with Mia Fey/the rest of the Fey Family, so...
I will say that Athena probably underwent more character development (and by extension, was focused on the most) in the span of a single game than any other single character in the Ace Attorney series, but considering the main storyline of DD is essentially her story, I don't really see that as a problem.
My personal feelings for Athena's character aside, I think a lot of people consider it a problem because they were expecting characters like Apollo to get more development. However, a lot of time went to focusing on a new rookie who practically came out of nowhere.
It's great that you don't see a problem with it, but I simply find it obnoxious.
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Spoiler: Case 3 major spoilers
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Thane wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Yes I feel like it should have been a game more about Apollo, to fill in a bit more about his blanks in his past and perhaps the secret family connections. Granted he does get some substantial development it is sort of...sidelined by Athena and some issues for Apollo are just never really looked at (like what the hell actually happened to him after he was given up?).
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Well, Klavier and Franzy were never the main focus of character development, and Godot was splitting time with Mia Fey/the rest of the Fey Family, so...
I will say that Athena probably underwent more character development (and by extension, was focused on the most) in the span of a single game than any other single character in the Ace Attorney series, but considering the main storyline of DD is essentially her story, I don't really see that as a problem.
My personal feelings for Athena's character aside, I think a lot of people consider it a problem because they were expecting characters like Apollo to get more development. However, a lot of time went to focusing on a new rookie who practically came out of nowhere.
It's great that you don't see a problem with it, but I simply find it obnoxious.
Yeah for me hearing the title "Dual Destinies" I assumed it'd focus on Apollo and Phoenix....granted there was no real promise of that and it could have meant Athena and Blackquill but yeah it sort of betrayed expectations for me.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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AdamW wrote:
Spoiler: Case 3 major spoilers
Spoiler:
"Descole? You don't mean Mr. I-Like-to-Wreck-Things-with-Mechanical-Monsters-and-Dress-Up-as-Posh-Ladies Descole?" -Emmy Altava
...NAILED IT
...NAILED IT
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Pierre wrote:
Thane wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Yes I feel like it should have been a game more about Apollo, to fill in a bit more about his blanks in his past and perhaps the secret family connections. Granted he does get some substantial development it is sort of...sidelined by Athena and some issues for Apollo are just never really looked at (like what the hell actually happened to him after he was given up?).
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Even then in the other games with new people Franny and Godot go nowhere near as much attention as Athena did. Klavier as well gets like nothing compared to the amount they push Athena and her spectacular new abilities on us.
Well, Klavier and Franzy were never the main focus of character development, and Godot was splitting time with Mia Fey/the rest of the Fey Family, so...
I will say that Athena probably underwent more character development (and by extension, was focused on the most) in the span of a single game than any other single character in the Ace Attorney series, but considering the main storyline of DD is essentially her story, I don't really see that as a problem.
My personal feelings for Athena's character aside, I think a lot of people consider it a problem because they were expecting characters like Apollo to get more development. However, a lot of time went to focusing on a new rookie who practically came out of nowhere.
It's great that you don't see a problem with it, but I simply find it obnoxious.
Let me pose a question in that case: Did you find Godot being the center of attention in Trials and Tribulations obnoxious?
I guess my problem of understanding the argument at this point is that Ace Attorney has always had a habit of pulling new characters out of nowhere to be the focus of attention and the driving plot points behind a game. What makes Athena the sole example where this is bad? The fact that people were expecting more character development for Apollo (even though he got quite a bit) or Phoenix (...though I'm not sure there's a lot you could do to develop his character at this point)?
I draw comparisons between Godot so much, because coming into T&T, I personally thought that the majority of character development was going to go towards Mia Fey. Though she does get some, the vast majority of the development goes towards a combination of Godot and explicating on the tangled mess that is the Fey Family. But my own expectations being shot down doesn't make the game bad by any extension...
I'm genuinely curious here; what makes this particular instance of a new character being the center of attention so bad? The fact that she spends more time on screen? The fact that she's a lawyer instead of a prosecutor? The fact that she's a "prodigy?"
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Let me pose a question in that case: Did you find Godot being the center of attention in Trials and Tribulations obnoxious?
I guess my problem of understanding the argument at this point is that Ace Attorney has always had a habit of pulling new characters out of nowhere to be the focus of attention and the driving plot points behind a game. What makes Athena the sole example where this is bad? The fact that people were expecting more character development for Apollo (even though he got quite a bit) or Phoenix (...though I'm not sure there's a lot you could do to develop his character at this point)?
I draw comparisons between Godot so much, because coming into T&T, I personally thought that the majority of character development was going to go towards Mia Fey. Though she does get some, the vast majority of the development goes towards a combination of Godot and explicating on the tangled mess that is the Fey Family. But my own expectations being shot down doesn't make the game bad by any extension...
I'm genuinely curious here; what makes this particular instance of a new character being the center of attention so bad? The fact that she spends more time on screen? The fact that she's a lawyer instead of a prosecutor? The fact that she's a "prodigy?"
I guess my problem of understanding the argument at this point is that Ace Attorney has always had a habit of pulling new characters out of nowhere to be the focus of attention and the driving plot points behind a game. What makes Athena the sole example where this is bad? The fact that people were expecting more character development for Apollo (even though he got quite a bit) or Phoenix (...though I'm not sure there's a lot you could do to develop his character at this point)?
I draw comparisons between Godot so much, because coming into T&T, I personally thought that the majority of character development was going to go towards Mia Fey. Though she does get some, the vast majority of the development goes towards a combination of Godot and explicating on the tangled mess that is the Fey Family. But my own expectations being shot down doesn't make the game bad by any extension...
I'm genuinely curious here; what makes this particular instance of a new character being the center of attention so bad? The fact that she spends more time on screen? The fact that she's a lawyer instead of a prosecutor? The fact that she's a "prodigy?"
I cannot for the life of me see how Godot's and Athena's roles are commensurate in the slightest.
First of all, we didn't have a second, largely undeveloped protagonist lying around waiting to get some screen time. Secondly, Godot spends A LOT less time on the screen than Athena does; hell there's even a case where he doesn't appear at all. The same cannot be said about Athena.
Also, yes, I don't like the fact that Athena has so much going on for her while Trucy on the other hand is in the game simply because Phoenix's daughter can't disappear without a trace. The prodigy part is annoying, but I heavily dislike how the term genius and prodigy are thrown around in every single game, so that is not something unique to Athena.
And like I've stated numerous times, I liked this game, but I would've enjoyed it more had Athena not been omnipresent and god's gift to attorneys everywhere.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
I'm genuinely curious here; what makes this particular instance of a new character being the center of attention so bad? The fact that she spends more time on screen? The fact that she's a lawyer instead of a prosecutor? The fact that she's a "prodigy?"
Like I said earlier, I think it's because Athena comes out of nowhere, with no connection to any previously established storylines.
Godot is tied up with the whole Fey clan business, but Nick is too, and while Godot gets most of the character development, we still get a lot of insight and info about the Feys (and Nick, too, through his connection to them).
Athena, however, has no connection to any previously established plotline or character. She literally comes out of nowhere, as opposed to characters like Godot, who, while new, still had a strong connection with well-established elements of the franchise.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
I'm genuinely curious here; what makes this particular instance of a new character being the center of attention so bad? The fact that she spends more time on screen? The fact that she's a lawyer instead of a prosecutor? The fact that she's a "prodigy?"
Like I said earlier, I think it's because Athena comes out of nowhere, with no connection to any previously established storylines.
Godot is tied up with the whole Fey clan business, but Nick is too, and while Godot gets most of the character development, we still get a lot of insight and info about the Feys (and Nick, too, through his connection to them).
Athena, however, has no connection to any previously established plotline or character. She literally comes out of nowhere, as opposed to characters like Godot, who, while new, still had a strong connection with well-established elements of the franchise.
Fair enough. I personally don't find introducing an entirely new story to be a problem whatsoever, but your reasoning is consistent. That said, Kay Faraday works perfectly as a counter example. Comes out of nowhere, and while she doesn't occupy as much screen time as Athena, she takes up a much greater percentage of the focus in terms of expounding on her character. I think she's the only one who undergoes any significant character development in that game at all.
Would you say Athena is worse than her?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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This is what I'm concerned with about Athena. She starts off trying to blend in with the stars, as how Kay had begun, and kinda works her way in somehow. Yet, she could be ready to fade out of the spotlight by the next game she features in. That's the primary problem with creating characters from nowhere; either they stay or they don't. By the way Athena feels forced in here, it only seems like the tip of the iceberg that would later crash her titanic amount of interaction. Hopefully, I'm still grasping at nothing here and actually have little to worry about.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Kay wasn't that bad in AAI, actually, simply because she earned plenty of character development within the span of a game, and by the end, felt pretty well integrated into the main cast. The problem came when she reappeared in AAI2, where she gains no further development at all. She literally shows up out of nowhere in the first case, lingers around for the second, and then shows up again in the 3rd, despite Edgeworth's objections. From that point, she was just around for circumstance. (It still suits Kay to show up randomly like this, though, since she's a fan of ninja and all.)
This is what I'm concerned with about Athena. She starts off trying to blend in with the stars, as how Kay had begun, and kinda works her way in somehow. Yet, she could be ready to fade out of the spotlight by the next game she features in. That's the primary problem with creating characters from nowhere; either they stay or they don't. By the way Athena feels forced in here, it only seems like the tip of the iceberg that would later crash her titanic amount of interaction. Hopefully, I'm still grasping at nothing here and actually have little to worry about.
This is what I'm concerned with about Athena. She starts off trying to blend in with the stars, as how Kay had begun, and kinda works her way in somehow. Yet, she could be ready to fade out of the spotlight by the next game she features in. That's the primary problem with creating characters from nowhere; either they stay or they don't. By the way Athena feels forced in here, it only seems like the tip of the iceberg that would later crash her titanic amount of interaction. Hopefully, I'm still grasping at nothing here and actually have little to worry about.
I haven't played the game yet, but I don't think she's going to just become a side character, say like how Trucy is in this game. I'm pretty sure Athena will be one of the most if not the most important character in the coming games, maybe not in terms of story/plot relevance but in terms of playability/screentime. Athena seems like the poster child of this new age of AA. I know many thought of GS5 as part 2 in the second trilogy (with AJ being part one) but as I've said before I feel like this game is tonally something new. I think that, if there is a new trilogy, this will likely looked at as the start of it, rather than the middle chapter. So I think we'll see at least two more GS games with Athena as a big focus, unless of course everyone hates her and they write her out to please fans. But I think her reception hasn't been THAT negative so far.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Hm, I'm hyped up again.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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D.A. McCoy wrote:
Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
Kay wasn't that bad in AAI, actually, simply because she earned plenty of character development within the span of a game, and by the end, felt pretty well integrated into the main cast. The problem came when she reappeared in AAI2, where she gains no further development at all. She literally shows up out of nowhere in the first case, lingers around for the second, and then shows up again in the 3rd, despite Edgeworth's objections. From that point, she was just around for circumstance. (It still suits Kay to show up randomly like this, though, since she's a fan of ninja and all.)
This is what I'm concerned with about Athena. She starts off trying to blend in with the stars, as how Kay had begun, and kinda works her way in somehow. Yet, she could be ready to fade out of the spotlight by the next game she features in. That's the primary problem with creating characters from nowhere; either they stay or they don't. By the way Athena feels forced in here, it only seems like the tip of the iceberg that would later crash her titanic amount of interaction. Hopefully, I'm still grasping at nothing here and actually have little to worry about.
This is what I'm concerned with about Athena. She starts off trying to blend in with the stars, as how Kay had begun, and kinda works her way in somehow. Yet, she could be ready to fade out of the spotlight by the next game she features in. That's the primary problem with creating characters from nowhere; either they stay or they don't. By the way Athena feels forced in here, it only seems like the tip of the iceberg that would later crash her titanic amount of interaction. Hopefully, I'm still grasping at nothing here and actually have little to worry about.
I haven't played the game yet, but I don't think she's going to just become a side character, say like how Trucy is in this game. I'm pretty sure Athena will be one of the most if not the most important character in the coming games, maybe not in terms of story/plot relevance but in terms of playability/screentime. Athena seems like the poster child of this new age of AA. I know many thought of GS5 as part 2 in the second trilogy (with AJ being part one) but as I've said before I feel like this game is tonally something new. I think that, if there is a new trilogy, this will likely looked at as the start of it, rather than the middle chapter. So I think we'll see at least two more GS games with Athena as a big focus, unless of course everyone hates her and they write her out to please fans. But I think her reception hasn't been THAT negative so far.
Well with Kay, everyone was expecting someone new and out of the blue...something that would be 'unique' to Edgeworth. It was a chance to explore Edgeworth's world and have new characters from that world shown. With Athena there is a vast array of potential assistants viable for this game, Maya could have came back, Apollo and Phoenix as a team (which doesn't happen till so late on), Pearl gets shown only to disappear almost instantly and not even SUMMON anything, Trucy as Apollo's previous diehard assistant and Phoenix's partner in crime and loving daughter. There were so many people who were...sidelined by this brand new person.
Lookit it this way, real life comparison, it's like a management position in a company opening up and rather than training long-existing staff or potential managers-in-training, the company opts to hire someone with no experience in the business from outside. It's insulting to the people who were already viable.
It's not even that I don't like her that much, she's got some real cute animations (I love her 'hair pull' one) and a spunky lawyer who is more passionate but jumps the gun more than ever certainly has a place in the games as I like overly-enthusiastic characters, like Fulbright
I liked her Mood Matrix mechanic as well (though a lot of my questions about that weren't really answered) but it needs a penalty system in place for it, I mean emotions as evidence is dubious enough for court as is. I just think her introduction is so...hamfisted, giving her a brand new unheard-of super power with no explanation (random genetic mutation?) shoving her relevance in every single case.1: Initially playable. She freezes up in court and has THAT very severe cutscene that hints there is a lot of backstory to be explored.
2: Introduced, shown to be capable of tossing trained police officers and praised everywhere as her powers are explained, saves Apollo's hide more than once.
3: Main playable protagonist, direct connection to the defendant, a story heavily about how Athena wants to develop herself as a Lawyer.
4 and 5: Well the connections are clear but you'll know this is where it was truly Athena's story.
Comparing her to Godot or any of the new characters in other games doesn't really work because she's so dominant in almost every case...and perhaps it is because she's an attorney that it doesn't slide well, it affords her more opportunities to show up the existing friendly characters compared to previous games.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
I'm genuinely curious here; what makes this particular instance of a new character being the center of attention so bad? The fact that she spends more time on screen? The fact that she's a lawyer instead of a prosecutor? The fact that she's a "prodigy?"
Like I said earlier, I think it's because Athena comes out of nowhere, with no connection to any previously established storylines.
Godot is tied up with the whole Fey clan business, but Nick is too, and while Godot gets most of the character development, we still get a lot of insight and info about the Feys (and Nick, too, through his connection to them).
Athena, however, has no connection to any previously established plotline or character. She literally comes out of nowhere, as opposed to characters like Godot, who, while new, still had a strong connection with well-established elements of the franchise.
Not to mention that Godot is mainly seen only in the courtroom sections, ocassionally in the defendant lobby and at the scene in 3-5, whereas Athena is basically beside whoever you're playing as the whole time which does help make her more "obnoxious" if you already find her annoying.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Allie_Fey wrote:
i actually really liked Athena. It was really refreshing to have a new face and her take no shit attitude is funny in itself
I get the feeling we're both in the minority there.
Addressing the earlier points...
So it's the simple amount of time Athena spends interacting with players, instead?
Sure, there are other sidekicks they could have brought back, but the game at the very least needs Athena to exist in order to have the entire backstory for Blackquill work. I think everyone can agree that Athena would have to be there for DD's plot to work.
With that said, the game has a choice then of either spending the time to develop Athena, or they can bring in a past character and sacrifice some character development for her. Considering how key a role Athena plays to the overall story, and how little a role characters like Pearl or Klavier play, I think they went with the much better decision.
Quote:
Not to mention that Godot is mainly seen only in the courtroom sections, ocassionally in the defendant lobby and at the scene in 3-5, whereas Athena is basically beside whoever you're playing as the whole time which does help make her more "obnoxious" if you already find her annoying.
Well, sure, but you could make this argument against any character that a player might potentially find annoying. I have a friend who think Maya is an obnoxious character. That doesn't make the fact that Phoenix spends time with Maya a fault of the game, though.
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Well with Kay, everyone was expecting someone new and out of the blue...something that would be 'unique' to Edgeworth.
The expectations complaints are something that I can't say I get, either. Sure, we were expecting a large portion focus to be on someone new in Investigations. I don't know about you guys, but I think it was pretty obvious that a large portion of the focus was going to be on new people as well in Dual Destinies. Let's not forget who was the sidekick introduced with Phoenix in the first Dual Destinies trailer (hint: It wasn't Apollo). It was pretty clear from the start who was going to be the center of attention this time around, along with the whole mysterious convicted prosecutor thing.
"I can't go to hell, little weirdo. I'm all out of vacation days."
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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That said however, I can't wait for the release of the DLC case.
Last edited by NinjaMonkey on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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NinjaMonkey wrote:
After finishing the game, I have to say that I no longer dislike Apollo's character like I did at the end of AJ (although I like Athena's character better). Also, while I did enjoy the game immensely, I still prefer AAI (yes, I'm one of those who actually like the AAI series more than the main one) and T&T over this one.
That said however, I can't wait for the release of the DLC case.
That said however, I can't wait for the release of the DLC case.
Agree with everything but the AAI part. :p
"I can't go to hell, little weirdo. I'm all out of vacation days."
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