Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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I love how they fleshed out Apollo's character more and gave him some background. I honestly like Athena; while I wouldn't say she's one of my favorite characters, she still got a few laughs out of me. I thought the stories were pretty good, especially the last one.
Most of the issues above didn't really bother me. I did think that Pearl's cameo was a barrel of wasted potential, and Trucy felt kind of pointless as well, and some of these motives were kind of flimsy, but that didn't hinder my enjoyment of the game. I didn't think that Athena was overshadowing anything, either. They explained her backstory and I was fine with it. (But a lawyer at age 18 when not spending your entire life on it? That's really pushing it, Capcom.)
The game itself looks amazing. I love all the new areas that were introduced. The music was pretty good...but I think it was kind of...lacking? Granted, it fit the mood well, but I just didn't feel the power behind the songs like I did in the previous games. So I was disappointed there.
I was also disappointed in the lack of areas to examine. The game was also riddled with typos, which really bugged me. And the voice acting...I didn't like it. At all. I could barely distinguish Apollo's Objection from Nick's, and their voices jsut didn't seem to fit them. Athena's voice fits her, though.
The best part was near the end of the cases where you pieced together everything in your head with beautiful effects and great music. It caught me totally off-guard but I LOVED it.
While it did have its problems, Dual Destinies was simply great. In fact, I think I might go replay a case...
...What is this "normal" you speak of? It sounds dangerous.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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I like the game so far, currently at the beginning of Case 3 of the game.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Tbh, I really liked it. I feel like Athena is a great character that got a lot of development for a first game. But it was done in a good way. I feel like Pearl/Trucy/Klavier really did play their parts well, even if they were rather small.
Trucy felt a little flanderized though, because she talked about her magic. A lot more than usual.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
I feel like Pearl/Trucy/Klavier really did play their parts well, even if they were rather small.
Trucy felt a little flanderized though, because she talked about her magic. A lot more than usual.
Trucy felt a little flanderized though, because she talked about her magic. A lot more than usual.
I agree. I feel that Trucy, Klavier, and Pearl's roles were so small! And those were the ones I was most interested in, honestly. It was really dissapointing; especially Klavier and Trucy's roles.
Other than that, the game doesn't have too many complaints by me (other than the spelling/grammar issues, oh boy...)
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler: Case One
Spoiler: Case Two
Spoiler: Case Three
Spoiler: Case Four
Spoiler: Case Five
Overall? Good, but not great. The lack of focus, topped with being too linear even for AA standards, as well as flip-flopping between AA4 Wright and AA3 Wright too much (last two cases he's pretty much AA3 Wright, while first three he's definitely AA4 Wright), and too brief of a role for important characters besides Wright and Apollo (Klavier, Trucy, Pearls, and Edgeworth were hardly even present) hold it back, but the mysteries are still great, the new characters are intriguing, the music is top-notch, the presentation and production values are better than ever (though the voice-acting and dialogue in cutscenes leave a lot to be desired), and just in general, the game scratched my Ace Attorney itch well enough. It's a bit disappointing, but nowhere near a disaster, and I see it as a worthy addition to the series.
Also...
Spoiler: Massive 5-5 spoilers involving killer
Spoiler: Slight 5-5 spoilers, major 4-4 spoilers
(A side note, but has anyone else noticed how much they like to use the word "assert" or some form of that word? Seriously, they must've used it like a dozen times in the game)
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Allie_Fey wrote:
i actually really liked Athena. It was really refreshing to have a new face and her take no shit attitude is funny in itself
I get the feeling we're both in the minority there.
Huh? That's funny. Even in this particular thread, I find the majority do like Athena. In what minority are you talking about?
Quote:
So it's the simple amount of time Athena spends interacting with players, instead?
Deja vu. I swear I made a statement on what this one is pretty much talking about: "Victim of over-creation" in a short span of time. It's that she hasn't gained enough time in the audience's eyes for all that she already has.
Quote:
It was pretty clear from the start who was going to be the center of attention this time around, along with the whole mysterious convicted prosecutor thing.
Oh, you mean the mysterious convict prosecutor that was shown in the first trailer? Oh yeah, he was definitely the center of the plot of this game. That girl was just a random new sidekick role that not as many people cared about.
...Basically, it wasn't that clear. People were taken unaware of Athena's significance, and it came to nip their behinds.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Flying walrus wrote:
Spoiler: Case Five
Correction. Motohide Eshiro is not a writer. I believe he's overseeing the development process and has a say in what goes and what doesn't story-wise, but the guy actually writing and coming up with the ideas is Mr. Takeshi Yamazaki. But as you say, he does indeed like to go big and have stated in multiple interviews that the way he usually comes up with cases is "I think of a twist, some sort of big impactual moment to surprise the player and baffle them, and then I try to work my way logically up to that point"
Makes for good mysteries, elaborate crimes, shocking twists and occasionally suspend-disbelief-killers. I would like it if he keeps his international crime-fiction inspirations out of it though.
Spoiler:
This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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linkenski wrote:
It's true. People who dislike Athena are mostly in a vocal minority. There's reason to be critical of her, but despite of it I think she's very likable too.
Correction. Motohide Eshiro is not a writer. I believe he's overseeing the development process and has a say in what goes and what doesn't story-wise, but the guy actually writing and coming up with the ideas is Mr. Takeshi Yamazaki. But as you say, he does indeed like to go big and have stated in multiple interviews that the way he usually comes up with cases is "I think of a twist, some sort of big impactual moment to surprise the player and baffle them, and then I try to work my way logically up to that point"
Makes for good mysteries, elaborate crimes, shocking twists and occasionally suspend-disbelief-killers. I would like it if he keeps his international crime-fiction inspirations out of it though. It's just not the reason I got into these games. I like the personal intrigues better, and bonus points are given when the killer has a personal relationship to someone in the main cast as well. I honestly feel a bit indifferent about DD's mastermind.
Flying walrus wrote:
Spoiler: Case Five
Correction. Motohide Eshiro is not a writer. I believe he's overseeing the development process and has a say in what goes and what doesn't story-wise, but the guy actually writing and coming up with the ideas is Mr. Takeshi Yamazaki. But as you say, he does indeed like to go big and have stated in multiple interviews that the way he usually comes up with cases is "I think of a twist, some sort of big impactual moment to surprise the player and baffle them, and then I try to work my way logically up to that point"
Makes for good mysteries, elaborate crimes, shocking twists and occasionally suspend-disbelief-killers. I would like it if he keeps his international crime-fiction inspirations out of it though.
Spoiler:
Oh, whoops. My bad. Yeah, in general, the stories aren't really personal enough. Things have escalated from a straightforward apartment homicide to
Spoiler:
Another thing...
Spoiler: Massive 5-5 Spoilers
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Fair enough. I personally don't find introducing an entirely new story to be a problem whatsoever, but your reasoning is consistent. That said, Kay Faraday works perfectly as a counter example. Comes out of nowhere, and while she doesn't occupy as much screen time as Athena, she takes up a much greater percentage of the focus in terms of expounding on her character. I think she's the only one who undergoes any significant character development in that game at all.
Would you say Athena is worse than her?
Would you say Athena is worse than her?
Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.
(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Sure, there are other sidekicks they could have brought back, but the game at the very least needs Athena to exist in order to have the entire backstory for Blackquill work. I think everyone can agree that Athena would have to be there for DD's plot to work.
Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works
(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Oh wow I've missed a lot
Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.
(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)
Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works
(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Fair enough. I personally don't find introducing an entirely new story to be a problem whatsoever, but your reasoning is consistent. That said, Kay Faraday works perfectly as a counter example. Comes out of nowhere, and while she doesn't occupy as much screen time as Athena, she takes up a much greater percentage of the focus in terms of expounding on her character. I think she's the only one who undergoes any significant character development in that game at all.
Would you say Athena is worse than her?
Would you say Athena is worse than her?
Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.
(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Sure, there are other sidekicks they could have brought back, but the game at the very least needs Athena to exist in order to have the entire backstory for Blackquill work. I think everyone can agree that Athena would have to be there for DD's plot to work.
Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works
(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)
While I can certainly understand how that makes Athena different, I don't really see how that makes her a worse character. Although I would disagree on Kay acting like a normal teenage girl...I haven't met anyone with a personality remotely similar to hers, male or female.
I will say that I honestly can appreciate Athena having no real connection to Phoenix ahead of time. The Investigations series (in particular GK2) has always been too convenient for my tastes. Edgeworth just happens to run into 4 cases on back to back to back to back days that all involve the same smuggling incident. And in GK2, Edgeworth
Spoiler:
So to that end, I appreciated DD for how everything wasn't all related to each other, Athena included. That's not to say Kay being related to Edgeworth makes her worse off, but I think if Dual Destinies had followed suit here with Athena, it would have been a little too convenient as well.
...I'm not entirely sure how you can separate the mysteries from the plot. The mysteries make up the plot, so to speak.
Spoiler:
But, then again, that's opinion. Sorry to hear you didn't like it.
Quote:
Spoiler: Massive 5-5 Spoilers
Spoiler:
"I can't go to hell, little weirdo. I'm all out of vacation days."
Last edited by TheBlarghMan on Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
And I'm not entirely sure how you can separate the mysteries from the plot. The mysteries make up the plot, so to speak.
Eeeeh, it depends. There are certain cases where they're inexplicably entwined, and certain cases where they are easily separable.
For instance, 1-4 (although not DL-6) is "easily separable": the story is about Nick saving Edgey, Edgey coming to terms with his past, and Yanni/Manfred taking revenge for the past. You could make the mystery literally anything, as long as it involved Yanni pinning the murder of Hammond on Edgey, and the story would be unchanged.
An example of the plot and mystery being closely connected is 2-2: both hinge on the whole Fey clan/spirit channeling business and "Ini's" past.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
And I'm not entirely sure how you can separate the mysteries from the plot. The mysteries make up the plot, so to speak.
Eeeeh, it depends. There are certain cases where they're inexplicably entwined, and certain cases where they are easily separable.
For instance, 1-4 (although not DL-6) is "easily separable": the story is about Nick saving Edgey, Edgey coming to terms with his past, and Yanni/Manfred taking revenge for the past. You could make the mystery literally anything, as long as it involved Yanni pinning the murder of Hammond on Edgey, and the story would be unchanged.
Those are some aspects of the story, sure, but there's also Von Karma's quest for revenge against Gregory and Miles, and the mystery of him ordering Edgeworth framed and Hammond killed. You'd be hard pressed to take that part of the mystery, change that into whatever you wanted, and still have the same case. You wouldn't even have the same culprit.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Also, like I said, DL-6 does not have an easily-separated plot and mystery.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
I think that's all part of the "plot" rather than the "mystery" :P
Also, like I said, DL-6 does not have an easily-separated plot and mystery.
Also, like I said, DL-6 does not have an easily-separated plot and mystery.
Then what would be a case of an easily separated plot and mystery?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
1-4, excluding DL-6. I just said that, didn't I? xD
I was more thinking along the lines of an actual case. DL-6 is essentially half the mystery (and almost all of the character motivations, for that matter). You can't just remove it from 1-4 since 1-4 is so based around DL-6 to begin with.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Okay, how about 2-4? The important thing is Maya's kidnapping and the love quadrangle between Matt, Corrida, Adrian, and Celeste. As long as Matt and then Adrian are suspected, the details of the murder don't matter much beyond that.
Once again, I think that underestimates a lot of the mystery. Arguably the biggest mystery in the entirety of FMT is discovering for yourself that Engarde is really guilty, and without that, the entire case's plot changes drastically. There's also Edgeworth revealing the reasoning behind Adrian's co-dependency (which isn't as big, but still important).
I honestly don't think there's a case where you can simply say that the mysteries are disconnected enough from the story that you could just remove all mystery and still have the same basic plot. That's pretty much going to be true for any mystery solving game. 2-4 is probably as close as you'll get, since the motivation for murder is nothing more than a "well, he was my rival and he was going to hurt my PR with his speech," but it's difficult to make a case there, either.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Okay, how about 2-4? The important thing is Maya's kidnapping and the love quadrangle between Matt, Corrida, Adrian, and Celeste. As long as Matt and then Adrian are suspected, the details of the murder don't matter much beyond that.
Once again, I think that underestimates a lot of the mystery. Arguably the biggest mystery in the entirety of FMT is discovering for yourself that Engarde is really guilty
...wat
how is that not obvious in the first five minutes?
Quote:
I honestly don't think there's a case where you can simply say that the mysteries are disconnected enough from the story that you could just remove all mystery and still have the same basic plot. That's pretty much going to be true for any mystery solving game. 2-4 is probably as close as you'll get, since the motivation for murder is nothing more than a "well, he was my rival and he was going to hurt my PR with his speech," but it's difficult to make a case there, either.
It's about changing the mystery, not removing it. And there are definitely cases where you could change the mystery a great deal while keeping the plot. The mystery will still be constrained in some way to accommodate the plot, but you'll still be able to change it plenty. (Really, it all comes down to the constraints the plot puts on the mystery. I suppose no case is completely free from the plot, but some plots have very strict restrictions, and some don't.)
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Oh wow I've missed a lot
Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.
(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)
Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works
(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Fair enough. I personally don't find introducing an entirely new story to be a problem whatsoever, but your reasoning is consistent. That said, Kay Faraday works perfectly as a counter example. Comes out of nowhere, and while she doesn't occupy as much screen time as Athena, she takes up a much greater percentage of the focus in terms of expounding on her character. I think she's the only one who undergoes any significant character development in that game at all.
Would you say Athena is worse than her?
Would you say Athena is worse than her?
Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.
(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Sure, there are other sidekicks they could have brought back, but the game at the very least needs Athena to exist in order to have the entire backstory for Blackquill work. I think everyone can agree that Athena would have to be there for DD's plot to work.
Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works
(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)
I think I see what BP's saying.
Spoiler: 5-5 Spoilers
Basically, I think BP is trying to say that mechanically, the mystery worked well (i.e., it was interesting to put together the who, how, and why) but the plot is a different matter (the "what" part of it; the actual story). I guess it's like, it was fun to put together the pieces, like a puzzle, but it didn't all combine to make a very good story.
For myself, I actually kinda liked the plot, though I definitely admit it could've been handled much better.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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IMO, the plot of 5-5 is (copy-pasted from the spoiler discussion thread):
Spoiler: Case 5
Also, I actually think the mystery of 5-5 (and 5-4) is the worst one in the game. The big bad was too obvious of a "twist villain," the motive was non-existent, and the main "trick" was underwhelming to me. Plus I had seen it all coming since case two, so it was kinda boring knowing what would happen next the entire time.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Adrian in black wrote:
AdamW wrote:
Spoiler: Case 3 major spoilers
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
On the bright side I finished cases 4 and 5 last night and rather enjoyed them - there was at least a bit more challenge, and while the story was completely absurd, it was absurd in the right kind of fun, just-plausible-if-you-suspend-your-belief-in-the-right-way way. And funny.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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AdamW wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Hell even the "he/she" part in 2-4 (Adrian's testimony) went right over my head and it felt awesome when I figured it out. Hopefully the DLC case will be harder.
Case 3 was probably my favourite because of the law school setting and characters, but as someone a few posts above me said, logic completely flies out the window. Especially the prerecorded speech with no one present at the stage.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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poptdp wrote:
Hell even the "he/she" part in 2-4 (Adrian's testimony) went right over my head and it felt awesome when I figured it out. Hopefully the DLC case will be harder.
...It's not
Everything else about the DLC case is really good imo, though.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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poptdp wrote:
My main problem with this game is that it had WAY too much hand holding. "I" wanna figure out on my OWN that the testimony contradicts the photo evidence, not have Athena point out that maybe the 'photo' is relevant to what they just said. I never felt really challenged like I did in the original trilogy or even AJ. Waaaay too much handholding in this one.
Hell even the "he/she" part in 2-4 (Adrian's testimony) went right over my head and it felt awesome when I figured it out. Hopefully the DLC case will be harder.
Case 3 was probably my favourite because of the law school setting and characters, but as someone a few posts above me said, logic completely flies out the window. Especially the prerecorded speech with no one present at the stage.
Hell even the "he/she" part in 2-4 (Adrian's testimony) went right over my head and it felt awesome when I figured it out. Hopefully the DLC case will be harder.
Case 3 was probably my favourite because of the law school setting and characters, but as someone a few posts above me said, logic completely flies out the window. Especially the prerecorded speech with no one present at the stage.
Agreed. At times it all felt like "colour-by-numbers".
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
Yeah, pretty much, I guess.
IMO, the plot of 5-5 is (copy-pasted from the spoiler discussion thread):
(Now, the question is: which case am I describing in this tag?)
Also, I actually think the mystery of 5-5 (and 5-4) is the worst one in the game. The big bad was too obvious of a "twist villain," the motive was non-existent, and the main "trick" was underwhelming to me. Plus I had seen it all coming since case two, so it was kinda boring knowing what would happen next the entire time.
IMO, the plot of 5-5 is (copy-pasted from the spoiler discussion thread):
Spoiler: Case 5
Also, I actually think the mystery of 5-5 (and 5-4) is the worst one in the game. The big bad was too obvious of a "twist villain," the motive was non-existent, and the main "trick" was underwhelming to me. Plus I had seen it all coming since case two, so it was kinda boring knowing what would happen next the entire time.
I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.
I guess you can argue what was too obvious where, or what was underwhelming, etc, but I will say that I thought the motive was one of the most intriguing ones in the entire series in the realm of possibilities it opened up. My problem with DD is that it doesn't explain it that well, but I think we can extrapolate the villain's motivation to be something like this:
Spoiler:
His motivations are incredibly intriguing and make perfect sense with a little thought put into it. I wish that the game had extended Case 5 into a second day and perhaps taken the time to elaborate more, but they could very well be planning to do that in a prequel game of some sort (possibly Investigations 3?).
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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AdamW wrote:
BTW, has it been established why the conventions for AA localization are so...odd? I mean, they go to the trouble of making some kind of half-assed justification for the Japanesey-ness of 5-2, but let all sorts of other Japanese-y things go by completely. All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place. So in that case, why bother with all the lame 'in this country!' stuff and the 'oh this town was founded by Japanese immigrants!' and so on? Doesn't really bother me, just seems odd.
It's confirmed his mentor was a big fan of Japanese culture. Apparently her love of Japanese culture was passed on to him.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.
Eh, I disagree. Taking the same story and swapping the motive (for an extremely flimsy and barely-explained one) is really not different enough imo.
AdamW wrote:
All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place.
Actually, Blackquill doesn't use -dono in the Japanese version IIRC.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.
Eh, I disagree. Taking the same story and swapping the motive (for an extremely flimsy and barely-explained one) is really not different enough imo.
AdamW wrote:
All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place.
Actually, Blackquill doesn't use -dono in the Japanese version IIRC.
Hah! Really? But then, that only makes it weirder :)
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Pierre wrote:
AdamW wrote:
BTW, has it been established why the conventions for AA localization are so...odd? I mean, they go to the trouble of making some kind of half-assed justification for the Japanesey-ness of 5-2, but let all sorts of other Japanese-y things go by completely. All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place. So in that case, why bother with all the lame 'in this country!' stuff and the 'oh this town was founded by Japanese immigrants!' and so on? Doesn't really bother me, just seems odd.
It's confirmed his mentor was a big fan of Japanese culture. Apparently her love of Japanese culture was passed on to him.
Sure, you can always come up with a rationalization, I'm not arguing it as a contradiction ;) Just wondering why they go to the effort of 'localizing' some things and don't apparently bother with others. I guess there's a limit to how much extra stuff you can crowbar into translation of a specific amount of source material, that might be all it is...
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Spoiler: This is everything about localizing Blackquill rolled into one picture
But I have to wonder why the team didn't go for full-Japanese or full-Victorian English. I suppose they were going for the latter, but decided that there's too much "ronin" in him to ignore. Now he sounds like a weaboo, and they'd probably retcon in that he's also a fan of the Steel Samurai.
...Now I've pictured him and Edgey watching anime in their spare time at the office. Someone, quick, draw that now!
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.
Eh, I disagree. Taking the same story and swapping the motive (for an extremely flimsy and barely-explained one) is really not different enough imo.
In that case, I think our differences lie in the perception of the storytelling, not how similar it is. I don't think the story is the same for one (reasons already explained), while there are similar elements to be certain, there are plenty of different ones as well:
Spoiler:
The motive isn't well explained, but that may have been a conscious choice by the writers as well, and considering the person involved was a spy, that theory probably isn't too far off the mark. I vehemently disagree that the motive is flimsy, the motive makes much, much more sense than arguably any main villain in the main series so far, with the exception of perhaps Godot.
Von Karma kills Hammond and Gregory out of an incredibly overbloated sense of pride.
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.
Meanwhile,
Spoiler:
This isn't to say that all of the main villains have weak motives (with the exception of Von Karma, and for the life of me I can't figure out why just "RARGH HE RUINED ME" is an accepted strong motive in the AA community). People have legitimately been willing to murder others to protect their image, and in Kristoph's case, it was a (really well done, in my opinion) example of a long descent downward. First he cheats to look better, then he cheats once more because he felt cheated and wanted payback, and his crimes get bigger and bigger as he's forced to cover his tracks.
That said...it's far easier to envision
Spoiler:
than any of those other things, and I would argue that would be a far more likely event to occur.
Out of curiosity, why do you feel the motivation was "extremely flimsy?" I'll grant that it wasn't explained that well, but I think flimsy is more than a little harsh.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Von Karma kills Hammond and Gregory out of an incredibly overbloated sense of pride.
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.
Meanwhile,
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.
Meanwhile,
Spoiler:
I agree with you for the most part, and I don't mean to be picky. But if you're willing to summarize every villain's motives into single sentences, the same can be done with anyone.
Spoiler:
Quote:
This isn't to say that all of the main villains have weak motives (with the exception of Von Karma, and for the life of me I can't figure out why just "RARGH HE RUINED ME" is an accepted strong motive in the AA community).
The sad thing is, people like him exist. They're a-plenty in this real world we live in. They also are typically in power...
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Von Karma kills Hammond and Gregory out of an incredibly overbloated sense of pride.
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.
Meanwhile,
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.
Meanwhile,
Spoiler:
I agree with you for the most part, and I don't mean to be picky. But if you're willing to summarize every villain's motives into single sentences, the same can be done with anyone.
Spoiler:
Quote:
This isn't to say that all of the main villains have weak motives (with the exception of Von Karma, and for the life of me I can't figure out why just "RARGH HE RUINED ME" is an accepted strong motive in the AA community).
The sad thing is, people like him exist. They're a-plenty in this real world we live in. They also are typically in power...
Well, certainly, you can sum anything up to make it sound stupid. I wasn't trying to do so with the villains, I was just trying to make a short summary as to why they did what they did.
I guess in more detail I could put my problem with Von Karma's like so:
Von Karma felt like he had been horribly wronged by someone pointing out his own corrupt acts. He then proceeds to murder said person over pointing out his own corruptness. Afterwards, he adopts the offender's son and raises him as a prosecutor for the sole purpose of framing him for murder nearly two decades later.
My point is to say that Von Karma's motive is much, much more far fetched than the motivation here, which is merely self preservation. This isn't to say that there's absolutely NO ONE who would do such a thing, but there are far more people who are willing to kill to protect themselves. I think the above is a fairly objective way to put it, but regardless of how you phrase it, it eventually comes down to Von Karma killed Gregory and adopted Miles due to issues stemming from his own pride.
In other words, my argument is essentially: Why does self preservation qualify as a weak motive in a series where people routinely kill and ruin others simply because of their own arrogance (Von Karma, Kristoph Gavin) or for merely reputation (Matt Engarde, Redd White) issues?
Not that those motives are bad, but if you're going to call out the Phantom's, you've pretty much got to call out the rest of the series as well.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do you feel the motivation was "extremely flimsy?" I'll grant that it wasn't explained that well, but I think flimsy is more than a little harsh.
Spoiler: Case 5
Self-preservation isn't a weak motive; it becomes a weak motive when the perceived threat is... not very threatening. (For instance, Ini's motive in 2-2. If she let the channeling go on as planned and it then failed, would the conclusion that Grey came to really have been "The channeling failed because Mimi is actually still alive, as the one who died in the car crash was actually Ini, and then Mimi took over her sister's life by changing her face with plastic surgery in order to escape the guilt and stress of all the patients dying at my clinic!" instead of "I guess spirit channeling isn't actually real"?)
Also, about von Karma: they explicitly state several times that the whole point of von Karma's character is perfection. So while a single penalty would usually be a silly motive to do all that stuff he did, considering von Karma's character, the sole blemish in an otherwise perfect 40-year career is fine as a motive. Maybe it isn't the most compelling motive, but I don't think it's as silly as you're making it out to be, either.
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do you feel the motivation was "extremely flimsy?" I'll grant that it wasn't explained that well, but I think flimsy is more than a little harsh.
Spoiler: Case 5
Self-preservation isn't a weak motive; it becomes a weak motive when the perceived threat is... not very threatening. (For instance, Ini's motive in 2-2. If she let the channeling go on as planned and it then failed, would the conclusion that Grey came to really have been "The channeling failed because Mimi is actually still alive, as the one who died in the car crash was actually Ini, and then Mimi took over her sister's life by changing her face with plastic surgery in order to escape the guilt and stress of all the patients dying at my clinic!" instead of "I guess spirit channeling isn't actually real"?)
Also, about von Karma: they explicitly state several times that the whole point of von Karma's character is perfection. So while a single penalty would usually be a silly motive to do all that stuff he did, considering von Karma's character, the sole blemish in an otherwise perfect 40-year career is fine as a motive. Maybe it isn't the most compelling motive, but I don't think it's as silly as you're making it out to be, either.
Spoiler: Case 5
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
In other words, my argument is essentially: Why does self preservation qualify as a weak motive in a series where people routinely kill and ruin others simply because of their own arrogance (Von Karma, Kristoph Gavin) or for merely reputation (Matt Engarde, Redd White) issues?
Spoiler:
Aw, shucks, I love calling out villain's motives. (If someone asks me for a few examples, I'll gladly answer, but this might not be the appropriate thread...)
Spoiler:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Spoiler:
Oh, correction.
Spoiler:
Spoiler: And to answer your other points
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