Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Monobear Theater wrote:
I haven't played the game because its not out in America yet, but I've seen a full playthrough of it and... I'm gonna be honest... this has been the most disappointing game since AAI, especially coming from DD.
Everything just seems like a downgrade from DD. The graphics are dull, the court animations are dull, the mysteries are dull (once again proving that Takumi cannot write a damn mystery to save his life), the court sections and puzzles are too easy and uninspiring (I saw all the contradictions right away, even Dual Destinies made me think and have game overs!), the Layton investigations were so weak (heck, you only zoom in like 3 times in the game, iirc).
The main cast (that is, Layton, Luke, Nick and Maya) are the only good characters in the game as all the supporting characters and witnesses are bare-boned in comparison to Dual Destinies' and the plot has the most plotholes since Unwound Future's plot twist.
Oh, the plot twist is just so terrible.
And while I liked the Mass Examinations, I really feel like they weren't fresh enough and felt stale pretty quickly. Nothing innovative was done with them and the ones from the last Witch Trail was tedious to watch, even more because the contradiction were too easy to spot, a fact aggravated by every. single. character. spelling. it. out. to. you.
Literally the only thing this game did good was the production values in the music and cutscenes, and while I prefer the cutscenes from this game, the soundtrack is on par with DD for me.
I'm sorry if I sound hateful, but after being told by everyone how "much better" this game was than DD, I just feel so disappointed. I was expecting something great and instead I got a pretty looking, nice sounding, plothole ridden mess.
Everything just seems like a downgrade from DD. The graphics are dull, the court animations are dull, the mysteries are dull (once again proving that Takumi cannot write a damn mystery to save his life), the court sections and puzzles are too easy and uninspiring (I saw all the contradictions right away, even Dual Destinies made me think and have game overs!), the Layton investigations were so weak (heck, you only zoom in like 3 times in the game, iirc).
The main cast (that is, Layton, Luke, Nick and Maya) are the only good characters in the game as all the supporting characters and witnesses are bare-boned in comparison to Dual Destinies' and the plot has the most plotholes since Unwound Future's plot twist.
Oh, the plot twist is just so terrible.
Spoiler: The plot twist
And while I liked the Mass Examinations, I really feel like they weren't fresh enough and felt stale pretty quickly. Nothing innovative was done with them and the ones from the last Witch Trail was tedious to watch, even more because the contradiction were too easy to spot, a fact aggravated by every. single. character. spelling. it. out. to. you.
Literally the only thing this game did good was the production values in the music and cutscenes, and while I prefer the cutscenes from this game, the soundtrack is on par with DD for me.
I'm sorry if I sound hateful, but after being told by everyone how "much better" this game was than DD, I just feel so disappointed. I was expecting something great and instead I got a pretty looking, nice sounding, plothole ridden mess.
...
Each to his own, I guess.
It'll be easier if I point out the things I didn't like:
- The "defender" had most of the contradictions spelled out and delivered in a plate for him. The only case this didn't happen as much was Belduke's suicide.
- I'll be honest, I'd have preferred if during the mob examinations the witnesses made no sound when reacting to a statement. I'd like to be able to question them myself if I feel like it. Then again, with the ridiculous number of witnesses that get put on the stand it sometimes may be hard to get the right person.
That's about it. I've learnt to deal with "Layton Endings", from his previous games.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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See -- I thought he final plot twist was both a disappointment but a necessary evil. It HAD to be in the game or otherwise it wouldn't truly feel like a blend of Layton and Wright IMO. And the more I think about it, the more I actually like the twist. I think I'm too lazy to get into too much detail right now, but I'll boil it down to this:
The Good:
-It's only way to conlcude the game without breaking either of the franchise's trappings.
Spoiler:
-In the end the twist logically explains everything that has transpired in the story (minus some things in the prologue)
The Bad:
-No proper foreshadowing. It's as left-field as it gets.
-It may ruin your impression of the earlier events in the story.
Also
Spoiler:
So the ending did get Hino'd, but it was in no way as poorly done as it was in either Panora's Box. To me the story was at least as good as Unwound Future which had a very good reception but it also contained a big immersion-breaking twist, but despite of that most people still thought its plot worked. I think PLvsPWAA belongs in the same category.
In fact - having seen it all now, I think DD is much less impressive now. How people can argue that DD has better writing or even just "as good" writing is beyond me. Either PLvsPWAA got a significantly better Localization or some people must be too blind to see how bad the writing is in Dual Destinies in general.
Summed up quickly I'd say it goes like this:
DD = Contrived afterthought motives while PLvsPWAA = solid motives all around.
DD = Dialogue is sappy when it tries to be emotional, forced when it tries to be funny more often than not. PLvsPWAA = Nails it with every joke, emotional moments can make you swallow a lump.
Enough about that though. But there you have it. I absolutely loved every bit of PLvsPWAA. I think it's one of my favorite 3DS games, and top 3 or top 4 material in regards to the Ace Attorney titles. Top 4 material as a Layton game, beating every single one from the prequel trilogy IMO.
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Spoiler: prequel trilogy
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the story is complete baloney. If Takumi can do anything right is writing a good plot and characterization. And I was actually enjoying the story a lot until the plot twist because the story basically lost all sense of urgency.
Spoiler: Plot twist talk
On the dialogue and such, I cannot disagree; as I've said, Takumi can write good characters. However, none of the supportive characters get enough development for me to care about them and thus I find it hammy and cheesy, even more than Dual Destinies' chapter 3.
Hell, the so-called "sad moments" didn't make me shed a tear even once this time, because of the aftermentioned lack of character development.
Spoiler: Entire DD and PLvsAA plot
I do agree the humor was spot-on, but overall I find the entire story less entertaining than Dual Destinies because:
-The plot twist is terrible, unbelievable, cheesy and just a step backwards
-The new characters are so superficially touched that I end up not caring about anything that happens to them and I find their dialogue cheesy and annoying.
Beyond HOPE... Lies absolute DESPAIR.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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linkenski wrote:
-It's only way to conlcude the game without breaking either of the franchise's trappings.
Spoiler:
Oh come on, how is that the "only way"? :/
Spoiler:
We didn't even get a giant robot in this game. I am disappoint.
Monobear Theater wrote:
Spoiler: Plot twist talk
Spoiler: To be fair
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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It's not even that bad of a game and once I'll play I will probably appreciate it more but as it stands my disappointment is... giving me an incredible level of despair :/
Beyond HOPE... Lies absolute DESPAIR.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Monobear, you mentioned that you thought it was unlike Takumi... well guess why, he was probably asked to include certain Layton trappings in the story he came up with, and since the credits said Mr. Hino of Level-5 was also directing the Layton-aspect of the game, you can assume that it was him who wanted to shoehorn that twist into the game.
But again, the more you try thinking about how else the plot could've ended the more you end up realising that from the get-go you were in for a disappointment,
Spoiler:
And even if the actual resolution was disappointing to you, you can't deny the rest of the game was pretty damn good, can you? I'm just happy that the twist didn't break the impact of the second witch trial's plot for example.
Spoiler:
This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
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linkenski wrote:
I thought this as well. Each case has a lot of things that was recycled in Dual Destinies, which has made my impression of that game even worse now :-(
What pained me most to realise this was the fact that this would mean that Yamazaki either got an early copy, being a Capcom-employee or something, or that he ripped all of it off during the first quarter of 2013 just months before DD was about to release.
I was always under the impression that the entire plot for every case was something a writer got down before a game was even in production. It's more understandable why DD's plot ended up feeling so dull if they just rushed it to get it done shortly before its month of release. But I dunno, maybe nothing really changed there?
Oh well - hence why I've started refering to AA5 as "Ace Attorney - Plagiarism" instead of "Dual Destinies"
What pained me most to realise this was the fact that this would mean that Yamazaki either got an early copy, being a Capcom-employee or something, or that he ripped all of it off during the first quarter of 2013 just months before DD was about to release.
I was always under the impression that the entire plot for every case was something a writer got down before a game was even in production. It's more understandable why DD's plot ended up feeling so dull if they just rushed it to get it done shortly before its month of release. But I dunno, maybe nothing really changed there?
Oh well - hence why I've started refering to AA5 as "Ace Attorney - Plagiarism" instead of "Dual Destinies"
linkenski wrote:
Okay I know it's implausible okay, but first of all, The Capcom-guy who handled the art in PLvPWAA was Kazuya Nuri and AA5's art director was Fuse Takuro... I don't know why I had to blurt this out lol, but art has nothing to do with it either I don't think.
But considering that Dual Destinies already ripped off a lot of old case-designs, like the whole forbidden chamber thing in case 2 being awfully similar to Kurain Village and its locked room in case 2 of JFA for instance, or 5-3's resemblance of the lyrical murder of 4-3. It can't be a coincidence that he also ended up making so similar plot-points to PLvsPWAA as well. There are just too many similarities for me to believe that.
Again I know it sounds far-fetched considering he'd have to do so in a 6-month time-span, but as I see it there's just too many of these "coincidences"
EDIT: But I digress, I know it sounds too good to be true.
But considering that Dual Destinies already ripped off a lot of old case-designs, like the whole forbidden chamber thing in case 2 being awfully similar to Kurain Village and its locked room in case 2 of JFA for instance, or 5-3's resemblance of the lyrical murder of 4-3. It can't be a coincidence that he also ended up making so similar plot-points to PLvsPWAA as well. There are just too many similarities for me to believe that.
Again I know it sounds far-fetched considering he'd have to do so in a 6-month time-span, but as I see it there's just too many of these "coincidences"
EDIT: But I digress, I know it sounds too good to be true.
linkenski wrote:
In fact - having seen it all now, I think DD is much less impressive now. How people can argue that DD has better writing or even just "as good" writing is beyond me. Either PLvsPWAA got a significantly better Localization or some people must be too blind to see how bad the writing is in Dual Destinies in general.
Summed up quickly I'd say it goes like this:
DD = Contrived afterthought motives while PLvsPWAA = solid motives all around.
DD = Dialogue is sappy when it tries to be emotional, forced when it tries to be funny more often than not. PLvsPWAA = Nails it with every joke, emotional moments can make you swallow a lump.
Enough about that though. But there you have it. I absolutely loved every bit of PLvsPWAA. I think it's one of my favorite 3DS games, and top 3 or top 4 material in regards to the Ace Attorney titles. Top 4 material as a Layton game, beating every single one from the prequel trilogy IMO.
Summed up quickly I'd say it goes like this:
DD = Contrived afterthought motives while PLvsPWAA = solid motives all around.
DD = Dialogue is sappy when it tries to be emotional, forced when it tries to be funny more often than not. PLvsPWAA = Nails it with every joke, emotional moments can make you swallow a lump.
Enough about that though. But there you have it. I absolutely loved every bit of PLvsPWAA. I think it's one of my favorite 3DS games, and top 3 or top 4 material in regards to the Ace Attorney titles. Top 4 material as a Layton game, beating every single one from the prequel trilogy IMO.
Since I'm responding to quite a bit of your posts, I want to say that I have nothing against you. In fact, I think you're one of the best posters on this forum.
That being said, you have an insane bias towards Takumi. So much so, that I feel like you'd rather have the next AA game by the Yamazaki game suck and have the new Takumi game be awesome instead of having both games be awesome, because that would prove how much "better" Takumi is. Why do I think this? When you say things like Yamazaki plagiarizing Takumi's works is "too good to be true"
For the record, I love Takumi. I don't even think Yamazaki is better. However, you clearly show your disdain for the new writing team often in ludicrous ways. Yamazaki plagiarized Takumi with Dual Destinies? That's absolutely ridiculous and like Bolt said, it's insanely insulting to the team who worked hard on the game.
Spoiler:
As for the similarities Yamazaki has towards Takumi's cases
-Locked room murders are a genre of mystery
-As are themed murders
Takumi also has similar elements in his cases (3-4 and 4-4) and the Camila-Jowd situation in Ghost Trick is almost exactly the same as Case 5 of AA. Yomiel's backstory is similar to Yogi's, and Cabanela and his perfect record is exactly similar to...yeah
I could argue that Dual Destinies has "just as good" (or marginally worse) writing. Sorry if you don't buy it
I've seen you put positive impressions of Dual Destinies before but then you go somewhere else and bash it. It's your opinion. I understand that. It's insanely biased, though, and you're automatically associating Yamazaki's name with a negative connotation on whatever he produces. Sorry for the rant, but I came hear to see some thoughts about PLvAA and I'm sick of seeing people shit all over Dual Destinies everywhere I go
Last edited by JesusMonroe on Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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JesusMonroe wrote:
this game has
Spoiler:
Allow me to correct something, this game does in fact not have those.
(Which is rather strange, considering the Layton games thus far)
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Tiagofvarela wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
this game has
Spoiler:
Allow me to correct something, this game does in fact not have those.
(Which is rather strange, considering the Layton games thus far)
Ok. Thank God. It would be redundant considering AA and Layton has done it
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Tiagofvarela wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
this game has
Spoiler:
Allow me to correct something, this game does in fact not have those.
(Which is rather strange, considering the Layton games thus far)
Ok. Thank God. It would be redundant considering AA and Layton has done it
Wait a minute, not having those means it doesn't have machines that walk around doing their thing. However, there's plenty of other things from earlier Layton games present here.
That includes an amazingly brilliant and realistic ending, and equally plausible explanations for all the mysteries over the course of the game.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Tiagofvarela wrote:
JesusMonroe wrote:
this game has
Spoiler:
Allow me to correct something, this game does in fact not have those.
(Which is rather strange, considering the Layton games thus far)
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Gammalad wrote:
From what I am seeing from this game so far Inquisitor Barnham has risen in the ranks of my top 5 favorite prosecutors. He is sitting at #2 behind Edgeworth.
Barnham is awesome. Definitely among my top 3 prosecutors, maybe perhaps my favourite~
By the way does anyone know who voices Maya? I heard people say it was the same person who voices Emmy but I'm not sure.
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Monobear Theater wrote:
the Layton investigations were so weak (heck, you only zoom in like 3 times in the game, iirc).
I know you're not trying to be funny but this made me laugh. Yeah, it's a struggle for me to replay the first trilogy and PL4 because that mechanic hadn't been introduced yet. There just isn't really anything in a Layton game as exciting as zooming.
Quote:
We didn't even get a giant robot in this game. I am disappoint.
Spoiler:
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Cyrus de Killer wrote:
By the way does anyone know who voices Maya? I heard people say it was the same person who voices Emmy but I'm not sure.
That's true for the German version, but I thought it was different for the English version.
AA wiki says her English VA is Samantha Dakin.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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I will however stand by my opinion. Dual Destinies' final case was, as some stated a bit too similar to that of 1-5 for instance, and there's not one case in the game that didn't blatantly rip off older cases. The similarities to PLvsPWAA could be coincidences (heck, what do I know??) but it's strange considering the track record. I've said multiple times in detail where Dual Destinies didn't quite stick to original ideas, and since I'm just a faraway fan I don't honestly think Yamazaki will be bothered by my ranting.
But if it has start to bug some of you that we can't just keep on topic without negative rants towards Dual Destinies, then I will try to tone myself down abit. But thanks for keeping it civil ;)
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Anthony wrote:
The special episodes are breaking the 4th wall........
I really thought the first one was funny though. But honestly I wish they hadn't been so meta, because I want to see some canon extra episodes just for the sake of getting more closure.
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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While I never played a Professor Layton game, which I will definitely do now, I enjoyed the plottwist.
Spoiler: somehow whole story
As for the game itself, I love it and I have to admit I had no connection with other chars then our 4 heros I was touched by the ending.
But that's simply because I was more taken by the tune and theme of the ending itself then by the characters.
AA DD was a good game though it had a meh ending but it was not bad...
Maybe AA vs PL is not really comparable to the other games. I don't know.
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) other than the main 4 characters, but I do agree the ending had things that made me think of Mass Effect 3's ending, and that's NOT a good sign.Overall i guess you're right. DD's ending while I thought it was meh, wasn't exactly "Bad" either, because it didn't really contradict anything or leave you feeling a bit cheated or anything.
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Daniel Fairhammer wrote:
Spoiler: somehow whole story
I'll answer these points one at a time, but I don't completely understand the ending either, so take my answers whichever way you will.
Spoiler:
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Daniel Fairhammer wrote:
Spoiler: somehow whole story
I'll answer these points one at a time, but I don't completely understand the ending either, so take my answers whichever way you will.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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linkenski wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler: About the intro cutscene
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Spoiler:
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Gammalad wrote:
Alright after watching the entire game playthrough I have to say for an Ace Attorney game it is probably the best one in awhile. (Much better than Dual Destinies and Apollo Justice to me) And as for a Professor Layton game, it really has me want to play more of the series since I only own Miracle Mask. However I felt like the overall story towards the end was rather forced then the rest of the story, and the plot holes were to abundant for my taste. Overall I can't wait to play this game and I would like to see another Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright game, or a Phoenix Wright vs. Professor Layton game where Professor Layton enters the world of Phoenix Wright. Also what I loved the most was
Spoiler:
I think you should definitely play the first or the third Layton game. They're the best in the franchise IMO and both are much better than Miracle Mask.
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linkenski wrote:
JesusMonroe: I appreciate the feedback, and I can see I have turned the knob a bit too high up about my bash of Yamazaki and co.
I will however stand by my opinion. Dual Destinies' final case was, as some stated a bit too similar to that of 1-5 for instance, and there's not one case in the game that didn't blatantly rip off older cases. The similarities to PLvsPWAA could be coincidences (heck, what do I know??) but it's strange considering the track record. I've said multiple times in detail where Dual Destinies didn't quite stick to original ideas, and since I'm just a faraway fan I don't honestly think Yamazaki will be bothered by my ranting.
But if it has start to bug some of you that we can't just keep on topic without negative rants towards Dual Destinies, then I will try to tone myself down abit. But thanks for keeping it civil ;)
I will however stand by my opinion. Dual Destinies' final case was, as some stated a bit too similar to that of 1-5 for instance, and there's not one case in the game that didn't blatantly rip off older cases. The similarities to PLvsPWAA could be coincidences (heck, what do I know??) but it's strange considering the track record. I've said multiple times in detail where Dual Destinies didn't quite stick to original ideas, and since I'm just a faraway fan I don't honestly think Yamazaki will be bothered by my ranting.
But if it has start to bug some of you that we can't just keep on topic without negative rants towards Dual Destinies, then I will try to tone myself down abit. But thanks for keeping it civil ;)
(Sorry for late reply)
Don't worry. You can shit-talk Yamazaki all you want. Most of your criticisms are fair. I just felt it was unnecessary and unwarranted here, especially since it's highly unlikely Yamazaki copied PLvAA. I could be completely wrong. I haven't played the game yet. If the similarities are too big to ignore, I'll be agreeing with you. If the similarities are just common tropes, then Takumi and Yamazaki just borrowed a page from the same book
I don't think all of Dual Destinies cases are rip-offs, though. 5-1 is completely original, 5-2 just used the same "locked-room murder" trope that Takumi and many other murder mystery writers have used before. 5-3 just used a theme murder and in a completely different way than Takumi used it. That's another thing that Takumi didn't invent. 5-4 is also pretty original. The only cases you could call rip-offs are 5-DLC and 5-5. The DLC is sketchy, though, as I could see the writers just thinking,
Spoiler: 5-DLC
It's not like Takumi is a stranger to ripping off things, though. At least 5-5 and 5-DLC added their own spin on things. 2-3 is a COMPLETE rip-off of "The Leopard Man's Story." So much so that it's definitely not a coincidence. Takumi also borrows ideas from his older cases as well. None of them are 100% original. 3-3 does the, "victim was killed earlier and the killer dresses as the victim to create a witness and frame someone else" gag, just like 1-4, and the flashback portion of 4-4 rips of 3-4 just as much as 5-5 rips off 1-5. Ghost Trick borrows elements from Ace Attorney as well. You could argue that it's "okay" since Takumi is using his own ideas again, but Yamazaki and Eshiro worked alongside Takumi (even though Takumi was definitely boss) and they're still the ones running the series now
Last edited by Bolt Storm on Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Please mark DD spoilers!
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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JesusMonroe wrote:
linkenski wrote:
JesusMonroe: I appreciate the feedback, and I can see I have turned the knob a bit too high up about my bash of Yamazaki and co.
I will however stand by my opinion. Dual Destinies' final case was, as some stated a bit too similar to that of 1-5 for instance, and there's not one case in the game that didn't blatantly rip off older cases. The similarities to PLvsPWAA could be coincidences (heck, what do I know??) but it's strange considering the track record. I've said multiple times in detail where Dual Destinies didn't quite stick to original ideas, and since I'm just a faraway fan I don't honestly think Yamazaki will be bothered by my ranting.
But if it has start to bug some of you that we can't just keep on topic without negative rants towards Dual Destinies, then I will try to tone myself down abit. But thanks for keeping it civil ;)
I will however stand by my opinion. Dual Destinies' final case was, as some stated a bit too similar to that of 1-5 for instance, and there's not one case in the game that didn't blatantly rip off older cases. The similarities to PLvsPWAA could be coincidences (heck, what do I know??) but it's strange considering the track record. I've said multiple times in detail where Dual Destinies didn't quite stick to original ideas, and since I'm just a faraway fan I don't honestly think Yamazaki will be bothered by my ranting.
But if it has start to bug some of you that we can't just keep on topic without negative rants towards Dual Destinies, then I will try to tone myself down abit. But thanks for keeping it civil ;)
(Sorry for late reply)
Don't worry. You can shit-talk Yamazaki all you want. Most of your criticisms are fair. I just felt it was unnecessary and unwarranted here, especially since it's highly unlikely Yamazaki copied PLvAA. I could be completely wrong. I haven't played the game yet. If the similarities are too big to ignore, I'll be agreeing with you. If the similarities are just common tropes, then Takumi and Yamazaki just borrowed a page from the same book
I don't think all of Dual Destinies cases are rip-offs, though. 5-1 is completely original, 5-2 just used the same "locked-room murder" trope that Takumi and many other murder mystery writers have used before. 5-3 just used a theme murder and in a completely different way than Takumi used it. That's another thing that Takumi didn't invent. 5-4 is also pretty original. The only cases you could call rip-offs are 5-DLC and 5-5. The DLC is sketchy, though, as I could see the writers just thinking,
Spoiler: 5-DLC
It's not like Takumi is a stranger to ripping off things, though. At least 5-5 and 5-DLC added their own spin on things. 2-3 is a COMPLETE rip-off of "The Leopard Man's Story." So much so that it's definitely not a coincidence. Takumi also borrows ideas from his older cases as well. None of them are 100% original. 3-3 does the, "victim was killed earlier and the killer dresses as the victim to create a witness and frame someone else" gag, just like 1-4, and the flashback portion of 4-4 rips of 3-4 just as much as 5-5 rips off 1-5. Ghost Trick borrows elements from Ace Attorney as well. You could argue that it's "okay" since Takumi is using his own ideas again, but Yamazaki and Eshiro worked alongside Takumi (even though Takumi was definitely boss) and they're still the ones running the series now
While I get what you're saying and it makes me sad to hear that Mr. Takumi has ripped off a mystery, if that's true, using tropes is vastly different from blatantly copy pasting an Ace Attorney case and then use it in the same series like 5-5 did. Tropes are there for a good reason, and if used skillfully can be used to enhance the story (although using too many might cause your work to look like a shonen manga, the genre which is just one giant circle jerk), while the other thing is just lazy writing and insulting to your fans.
I'm not going to argue that Mr. Yamazaki simply stole ideas from Professor Latyon vs Ace Attorney since I have no proof and it's more than a little mean, but there are so many things those games have in common that it makes it hard for me to believe otherwise. I know he didn't work on the game, but both he and Mr. Takumi work for the same company and even work on the same series; are you telling me there's no chance he heard anything about the game?
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Thane wrote:
I'm not going to argue that Mr. Yamazaki simply stole ideas from Professor Latyon vs Ace Attorney since I have no proof and it's more than a little mean, but there are so many things those games have in common that it makes it hard for me to believe otherwise. I know he didn't work on the game, but both he and Mr. Takumi work for the same company and even work on the same series; are you telling me there's no chance he heard anything about the game?
Well, I don't know how similar the mystery/story is. Thankfully, I'm still very in the dark about this game. All I know is the prosecutor is a knight, the game is about the Salem Witch Trials, and Phoenix is a baker at some point. I can't argue if something is a coincidence or not. I'll take your word on it if the similarities are way too similar to not be suspicious. If it's just something like,
Spoiler: DD Case 5
As for the bolded part, I still say it's highly unlikely. Takumi didn't even know Phoenix would be the main character of GS5 until it was announced from the TGS trailer. The TGS trailer (which came out before PLvAA) shows that the writers had at least Cases 1, 4, and 5 plotted out, or at least the overarching mystery. I have no proof of this, but I think it's safe to say the entire game was written out at that point and then they just had to put it in production. If they heard anything about PLvAA, they'd have to rework the plot of their game
ETA: For the record, I'm not trying to bash Takumi. I love Takumi and the AA series along with Ghost Trick are some of my favorite games. I prefer Takumi over Yamazaki. I'm just defending Yamazaki because I think he's pretty swell, too
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Yamazaki and Eshiro worked alongside Takumi (even though Takumi was definitely boss) and they're still the ones running the series now
Hard to say, really. They jumped on the hype train for GS5 while Takumi was busy with this game, so the mainstream GS games would even have a recent installment to speak of. Who knows who is going to direct GS6, especially that Takumi has lately considered returning to this franchise for something GS-like? I know for a good degree of certainty that Eshiro & Yamazaki are busy with GK3 by this point.
Thane wrote:
I know he didn't work on the game, but both he and Mr. Takumi work for the same company and even work on the same series; are you telling me there's no chance he heard anything about the game?
I think I've come up with a new theory. Since LKvsGS was released an entire year before GS5 was, it's likely Eshiro & co. had a crack at the game for themselves, and the decision to share a few certain ideas began to pop into their heads. It's not plagiarism because tropes are everywhere anyway, but it may actually have been intentional that certain things are a little more than coincidences. (Key word: certain, since there are only a few similarities I can come up with.) I've mentioned how much DD likes paying tribute to past games and other things. PLvsAA does just as much and then some, structuring its entire premise based on things that fans of the first Layton trilogy would recognize. Again, not plagiarism, but there's not so much ingenuity stopping by as it seems at first glance.
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
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1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Hard to say, really. They jumped on the hype train for GS5 while Takumi was busy with this game, so the mainstream GS games would even have a recent installment to speak of. Who knows who is going to direct GS6, especially that Takumi has lately considered returning to this franchise for something GS-like? I know for a good degree of certainty that Eshiro & Yamazaki are busy with GK3 by this point.
I've been thinking that Takumi is just working on some other GS game (probably with new cast) that's not GS6. Yamazaki and Eshiro are working on GS6 or GK3. What makes you say they're working on GK3?
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
I think I've come up with a new theory. Since LKvsGS was released an entire year before GS5 was, it's likely Eshiro & co. had a crack at the game for themselves, and the decision to share a few certain ideas began to pop into their heads
Eh. I don't buy that unless the things that were copied in Dual Destinies are small things. It's clear that GS5 team had a good handle on the plot before PL came out so things
Spoiler: DD
Being extremely vague, can someone point out some of the similarities so I have a better grasp on what we're all talking about? If the similarities are twists/important at all, then don't bother
(And it's pure coincidence that I've replied to you a lot lately. I don't want you to think I'm out to get you or anything
)
Last edited by JesusMonroe on Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Thane wrote:
I'm not going to argue that Mr. Yamazaki simply stole ideas from Professor Latyon vs Ace Attorney since I have no proof and it's more than a little mean, but there are so many things those games have in common that it makes it hard for me to believe otherwise. I know he didn't work on the game, but both he and Mr. Takumi work for the same company and even work on the same series; are you telling me there's no chance he heard anything about the game?
Well, I don't know how similar the mystery/story is. Thankfully, I'm still very in the dark about this game. All I know is the prosecutor is a knight, the game is about the Salem Witch Trials, and Phoenix is a baker at some point. I can't argue if something is a coincidence or not. I'll take your word on it if the similarities are way too similar to not be suspicious. If it's just something like,
Spoiler: DD Case 5
As for the bolded part, I still say it's highly unlikely. Takumi didn't even know Phoenix would be the main character of GS5 until it was announced from the TGS trailer. The TGS trailer (which came out before PLvAA) shows that the writers had at least Cases 1, 4, and 5 plotted out, or at least the overarching mystery. I have no proof of this, but I think it's safe to say the entire game was written out at that point and then they just had to put it in production. If they heard anything about PLvAA, they'd have to rework the plot of their game
ETA: For the record, I'm not trying to bash Takumi. I love Takumi and the AA series along with Ghost Trick are some of my favorite games. I prefer Takumi over Yamazaki. I'm just defending Yamazaki because I think he's pretty swell, too
Hm? As far as I know he was just surprised by the decision of focusing on Phoenix, and didn't have the interview until before the release trailer since that would, well, spoil stuff. Do you mind telling me how you know Mr. Takumi didn't know about Phoenix being the main character before the release trailer? I may just be misremembering the article.
I think Rubes is right in that they had an early look at the game and borrowed some elements from it. However, this discussion is going to lead nowhere since I don't want to spoil the game for you. Not being able to use examples makes this rather difficult. However, I can almost guarantee you'll be surprised by the eerie familiarity of some of the events in the game; I know I was.
I'm glad someone likes Mr. Yamakazi('s writing, I'm not bashing his person here) because I have a hard time accepting him as a substitute for Mr. Takumi, to say the least. I find the spin-offs downright boring and Dual Destinies was only decent, although it was clear that the man tried his best to deliver the classic Ace Attorney spirit, so I give him credit for that. However, there's just something in his writing that puts me off...he's like the testosterone cannon of the story-based game industry.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Anyway, Thane, I believe you're the first person I've talked to that fully seem like you share my viewpoint completely :)
Before I had played PLvsPWAA I thought DD at least had some nice ideas of its own (don't misunderstand me, it still does have that!) and that overall the writing was leaps and bounds better than AAI, while still having the overarching flaw that it lacked subtlety and went too far with some of its crazier ideas, but having seen PLvsPWAA, again; It's just hard to believe that the similarities are coincidences.
Spoiler: Similarities between DD and older games
See, you might say all of those examples are merely "Homages", but I have to say, I don't care about that. It's cheap to live off of ideas already used once, and even some that another guy came up with as a central element for every case. It didn't make Dual Destinies "bad" cuz, as I said, I do think the game is decent, but had there not been those carbon copies, I'd have thought it was a lot better for sure... but coupled with the direct similarities to PLvsPWAA, I find it hard to enjoy particularly case 5-2 and 5-3 a lot more now, but at the same time it also made me understand why some things in those cases didn't really make sense to me before.
Either way, whether if it's true or not that the GK team took things from PLvsPWAA (which none of us can simply confirm or deny) I think it makes PLvsPWAA stand out as the better game if you compare the similarities.
Spoiler: PLsPWAA vs DD example
This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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linkenski wrote:
Either way, whether if it's true or not that the GK team took things from PLvsPWAA (which none of us can simply confirm or deny) I think it makes PLvsPWAA stand out as the better game if you compare the similarities.
Spoiler: PLsPWAA vs DD example
Oh yes, absolutely, that always bothered me in Dual Destinies as well, although I think
Spoiler: Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney
Speaking of subtlety, or rather the lack thereof, I believe I've found the perfect example:
Spoiler: Turnabout Reclaimed and (minor) PLvsAA
If that isn't a good example of the difference in writing quality, I don't know what is.
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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It's not like Yamazaki is plain awful and Takumi as always excellent, don't get the impression that this is what I think, but I think Takumi's better when his writing "peaks" than when it does for Yamazaki. Also in regards to themes and literary telling, Yamazaki's style often relies too much on superficial things like
Spoiler: DD themes
In PLvsPWAA I felt that the whole subtext surrounding the Witches and the very nature of Labyrinthia and the Story was executed so right. I don't want to bother going too much into the details, probably because I haven't had time to replay it yet, but as my initial impression, having beat it some weeks ago, I think the thematic stuff that goes on in PLvsPWAA was more straight to the point without beating around the bush like DD's pseudo-symbolism, and therefore more poignant and meaningful in the end. And a thing as simple as the "prose" of either of the games also has a very clear distinction.
I'd say, it's not that there's just one thing that makes either of the two games shine or look like crap, but it's just several small things in either game that makes Yamazaki's writing stand out as the weaker one.
This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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Thane wrote:
Hm? As far as I know he was just surprised by the decision of focusing on Phoenix, and didn't have the interview until before the release trailer since that would, well, spoil stuff. Do you mind telling me how you know Mr. Takumi didn't know about Phoenix being the main character before the release trailer? I may just be misremembering the article.
I actually can't remember, so we'll agree to disagree here I guess. I still think it's unlikely. GK and GK2 are completely original games (cameos aside) and it's not like they got an early copy of Ghost Trick because they needed indirect aid fro Takumi. Fans and critics loved the GK series (not on this forum but...
) so I doubt they were sitting in their office, not writing the script to the Dual Destinies, because they were waiting for their early release copy of PLvAA. Capcom and Level-5 are two different companies, so that just makes it more unlikely.But I agree that it's hard to continue the discussion since I haven't played PLvAA. I'll trust that you're right and I'll be thinking the similarities are eerie. Maybe I'll be redacting all of my posts on this thread after I play the game
linkenski wrote:
Again, ever since AAI and now DD I've felt that the best comparison I can come up with on fly with Yamazak and Takumi is that in a nutshell if a Takumi game is similar to Disney's Aladdin, then a Yamazaki-written game is Aladdin and the The Return of Jafar. I'm intentionally making this silly and taking it down to kiddie stage, so don't comment on the juveneile nature of my argument. I'm aware :3
Anyway, Thane, I believe you're the first person I've talked to that fully seem like you share my viewpoint completely :)
Before I had played PLvsPWAA I thought DD at least had some nice ideas of its own (don't misunderstand me, it still does have that!) and that overall the writing was leaps and bounds better than AAI, while still having the overarching flaw that it lacked subtlety and went too far with some of its crazier ideas, but having seen PLvsPWAA, again; It's just hard to believe that the similarities are coincidences.
See, you might say all of those examples are merely "Homages", but I have to say, I don't care about that. It's cheap to live off of ideas already used once, and even some that another guy came up with as a central element for every case. It didn't make Dual Destinies "bad" cuz, as I said, I do think the game is decent, but had there not been those carbon copies, I'd have thought it was a lot better for sure... but coupled with the direct similarities to PLvsPWAA, I find it hard to enjoy particularly case 5-2 and 5-3 a lot more now, but at the same time it also made me understand why some things in those cases didn't really make sense to me before.
Anyway, Thane, I believe you're the first person I've talked to that fully seem like you share my viewpoint completely :)
Before I had played PLvsPWAA I thought DD at least had some nice ideas of its own (don't misunderstand me, it still does have that!) and that overall the writing was leaps and bounds better than AAI, while still having the overarching flaw that it lacked subtlety and went too far with some of its crazier ideas, but having seen PLvsPWAA, again; It's just hard to believe that the similarities are coincidences.
Spoiler: Similarities between DD and older games
See, you might say all of those examples are merely "Homages", but I have to say, I don't care about that. It's cheap to live off of ideas already used once, and even some that another guy came up with as a central element for every case. It didn't make Dual Destinies "bad" cuz, as I said, I do think the game is decent, but had there not been those carbon copies, I'd have thought it was a lot better for sure... but coupled with the direct similarities to PLvsPWAA, I find it hard to enjoy particularly case 5-2 and 5-3 a lot more now, but at the same time it also made me understand why some things in those cases didn't really make sense to me before.
Bah. Yamazaki is at least King of Thieves standards (though in your mindset, the comparison is very appropriate because I seem to remember the only thing the later Aladdin sequels doing better was the music)
Spoiler: DD Similarities
As for what you said in your most recent post that you ninja'd me on...I agree. Takumi is excellent with his theming and Yamazaki either "Tells, don't show" (Dark Age of the Law) or doesn't go far enough with a subtle theme (the idea of masks in Dual Destinies)
Ghost Trick is actually a really deep game past face value. It's definitely deeper than any of the AA games (not saying none of them are deep, though)
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Spoiler:
You missed the last bit of my statement. I said: "It's cheap to live off of ideas already used once as a central element for every case. Takumi did use several of his ideas more than once, but he never made the whole case revolve around them, at least not AFAIK. Also reusing the Parrot thing still makes more sense than trying to do the same idea twice but with a whale instead because it doesn't make any sense compared to using a parrot which can actually speak. Also in PLvsPWAA it made perfect sense considering
Spoiler:
Also, regarding 5-2 vs. 2-2 and the locked-room murder: Hidden Chamber = Channeling Chamber. The similarity is glaring, and both use the "Only unlockable with the key from the inside"
Also, like I said, Phoenix even comments on it day-2 in DD, saying "I had a similar case once, but that had a prosecutor throwing her whip rather than throwing katanas" or something like that. Acknowledging the similarity doesn't mean it's passable IMO. Not for me.
PS. Hey wait... Monroe did you seriously say that my Aladdin comparison was fitting because DD is the game with better OST? OMGOSH, If you think PLvsPWAA has a worse soundtrack than DD, then we're two completely seperate beings!
This is the Dark Age of the Ace Attorney
Re: What did you think of Professor Layton vs Phoenix Wright
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
Hard to say, really. They jumped on the hype train for GS5 while Takumi was busy with this game, so the mainstream GS games would even have a recent installment to speak of. Who knows who is going to direct GS6, especially that Takumi has lately considered returning to this franchise for something GS-like? I know for a good degree of certainty that Eshiro & Yamazaki are busy with GK3 by this point.
I've been thinking that Takumi is just working on some other GS game (probably with new cast) that's not GS6. Yamazaki and Eshiro are working on GS6 or GK3. What makes you say they're working on GK3?
Nothing is confirmed at this point, so I had to say "a good degree of certainty" rather than just "with certainty". Nonetheless, from one earlier announcement, Eshiro did say they had GK3 planned, and by Takumi's announcement of a new game, they had the next title in the works. There's no sign of GS6 having been brought up yet, so I'm going to set it aside until some real news comes along.
Quote:
Rubia Ryu the Royal wrote:
I think I've come up with a new theory. Since LKvsGS was released an entire year before GS5 was, it's likely Eshiro & co. had a crack at the game for themselves, and the decision to share a few certain ideas began to pop into their heads
Eh. I don't buy that unless the things that were copied in Dual Destinies are small things.
That's exactly what I said in my last post. "Certain" things which don't amount to much. GS5 is still an original title in its own right.
Quote:
(And it's pure coincidence that I've replied to you a lot lately. I don't want you to think I'm out to get you or anything )
)These forums can lag sometimes, so whenever I see an active discussion, I just feel tempted to jump in. Besides, I don't care as long as I have fans of my translation works. :P I've been pretty busy lately, though...
Thane wrote:
Hm? As far as I know he was just surprised by the decision of focusing on Phoenix, and didn't have the interview until before the release trailer since that would, well, spoil stuff. Do you mind telling me how you know Mr. Takumi didn't know about Phoenix being the main character before the release trailer? I may just be misremembering the article.
Here's the link to the full interview if you're interested. It doesn't say anything about when he found out, but Capcom does have privacy policies even among development teams. I don't remember in which official blog I read it, but they wouldn't have peeked into each other's works. Hino of Level-5 was also pretty strict about keeping PLvsAA closed except from official trailers and promotions. The chance of Eshiro & co. learning about what stuff made it into PLvsAA wouldn't have been possible until close to its release in 2012, and by then, much of DD had been set in stone.
Quote:
However, there's just something in his writing that puts me off...he's like the testosterone cannon of the story-based game industry.
FAR from it, man. The GS series is quirky at any given time, but it's not as zany as some other mystery games I've seen *coughDanganRonpa2cough*
linkenski wrote:
It's cheap to live off of ideas already used once, and even some that another guy came up with as a central element for every case.
That depends on how the "lived off" ideas are applied. If it's done well, then there's no problem. DD's issue is that it comes off from left field and doesn't give satisfying explanations for some things, so those things may feel like they're "carbon copies" when they actually aren't.
As for why they did it that way, I'm not going to answer that. I have only speculation.
Quote:
Either way, whether if it's true or not that the GK team took things from PLvsPWAA (which none of us can simply confirm or deny) I think it makes PLvsPWAA stand out as the better game if you compare the similarities.
Spoiler: PLsPWAA vs DD example
Spoiler:
The home of the Gyakuten Saiban vs Ace Attorney blog: http://gyakutengagotoku.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
1/3/19 edit: The project has officially been moved to a new blog at https://gsvsaa.blogspot.com/ Further updates will be pending.
AA fanfiction archive: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31369
Yakuza/RGG fanfiction archive: https://archiveofourown.org/users/rubia ... /rubia_ryu
My misc translation and work promos here at http://rubiaryutheroyal.tumblr.com
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