Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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I don't fucking know anymore. I got to replay 1-4 anyway. It's long overdue
The photo is in 5-4 but it's the same crime, so I consider it one case. If we want to get into specifics, then I'll say that the incident at the space center and the UR-1 Incident mirrors Hammond's murder and DL-6
I guess that clears things up a little. But I did notice we got away from the original Daryan/Calisto argument and went into Phantom/Calisto for some reason...
Small tangent: I REALLY like I-4, even if it is a bit fan service-y (I just really like Bratworth, young Franzy, Badd, and Calisto)
The bombing was kind of important as it added depth to the Phantom and how ruthless he was (would Gant bomb a courtroom to save his own ass)? The bombing also tied the intro case into everything and it was also one of the core concepts of the murder. It's like saying Goodman being killed in two places at once doesn't add anything to the murder. I don't recall blackmail in 5-5. Gant being a police chief "happened" to be his occupation, but it certainly added a whole lot to the case. Robots were important (which I think you just said)? There are similarities but again, noticing these similarities only makes it easy to predict that Athena and Simon were innocent
Maybe the Phantom got arrested as a teenager/young adult and got his DNA taken, so the blood would prove his identity. Maybe not actually, because the AA series shows it doesn't matter whether you've been arrested before or not; they just have the DNA of everyone in the universe on file.
But von Karma was already convicting Edgeworth of Hammond's murder. Convicting him of DL-6 didn't seem necessary
Technically, it was a stepladder :p
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Hmm, I guess what I'm really comparing is 5-5 with the last day of 1-5. Of course, the last day of 1-5 is when the story really starts to kick in; everything before that is just "omg this guy died in two difference places!!" mystery.
Huh oops I think I did that. This is what happens when you discuss five cases at once xD So to rephrase what I said with the correct cases, Bryne's death was for the organization, and Mack's death was merely a means to that end; LeTouse's death was for Daryan alone.
Goodman being killed in two places doesn't add anything to the story. It's really just filler to occupy the first two days of court until you get into SL-9. For some reason my mind went to 5-2. Herp derp. (Was Cosmos blackmailed into doing the stuff he did? ...Or was it to try to stop Phantom? I forget/didn't pay attention to that part much in the first place.) I don't think Gant being police chief changed that much... I mean, he brought in the whole evidence law thing, but that was more of a puzzle than an actual component of the mystery/story. Robots weren't really important to the story.
Even if Phantom's identity was proven, it wouldn't make a difference to him because he can just change his disguise :P
Convicting Edgey of Hammond's murder would have been enough, but I think VK wanted to convict Edgey of his father's murder for symbolic purposes, to make his revenge on Gregory more 'perfect'.
That is a ladder, not a stepladder. All of your arguments until this point have been invalidated.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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I actually really did like the fact that Goodman was killed in two places at once. I love every trial day in 1-5 and think the case gets progressively better as it goes along. It probably is my favorite case actually, and it really does set the gold standard in Ace Attorney in terms of characters, the villain, the story, the turnabout, and the mystery. (GK2-5 is a close second, but we don't need to get into that). Anyway, the story in 5-5 is undeniably similar to 1-5, but the mysteries are pretty much nothing alike. I don't really prefer story over mystery OR mystery over story. I kind of just like the nice balance (which is why I guess I'm not as bothered by the Yamazaki/Eshiro transition from Takumi as a lot of other people) and I really like the mystery in 5-5. I do think the cases are different enough even though the Blackquill/Athena story is a ripoff of the better told Lana/Ema story (and 1-5 actually convinced me that Ema was the murderer). Cosmos wasn't blackmailed. He switched the launch pads to keep his astronauts away from the blast (he was trying to fool the criminal) but Fulbright figured out they were in boarding lounge 1 anyway. Gant being police chief added a lot of tension because he had privileges while in court like not testifying and if you lost, you would be disbarred, as would Edgeworth. The Phantom being a spy gave the feeling that he could escape at any time or kill someone if he got pissed (I actually thought he might shoot Simon when he yelled, "Die, Simon Blackquill!" I'm not a smart man).
Well the Phantom couldn't change his disguise because...um..hmm....
That makes sense. Von Karma is also an evil asshole
You need to stop judging things based on narrow-minded cultural assumptions, BP
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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(To go on a GK2-5 tangent... the more time passes, the less I like it ~_~ After the initial Wow! factor wore off, I just felt like it was... contrived. Soooo much of it was random coincidences that happened to work out for the killer, rather than stuff they actually planned or could have possibly predicted.)
Yup, the story of 5-5 was a rip-off of the story of 1-5. And like I said, I really didn't like the mysteries in 5-5. So (for me) a lame mystery and a recycled story... yeah, not a good combination.
Eh, Gant being police chief didn't really add much tension. We weren't going to lose the case, we're Phoenix Wright! :P Also, the only "special right" he invoked was his right to testify... after which he just kept on testifying. I don't think his position was really used that much.
While the initial gameplay system for AA was quite innovative and it's really zany, AA is actually quite a safe series. Main characters always return, and are never killed or killers. That's why I never doubted the innocence of either Athena or Simon. Similarly, I never expected Phantom to just escape, or kill someone right in front of us. That's not a risk the franchise would ever take. (Of course, there's always the possibility with a new game that I'll be proved wrong on this, but... so far I haven't been.)
A step ladder is by definition a variety of folding ladder... which that clearly isn't.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: GK2-5
Eh. I guess you're right, but there was tension knowing we were going against the motherfuckin' chief of police. The authority he just brought to the room and his, "I can ruin you" face wouldn't be as effective if he was just another cop
I didn't think he'd kill Simon. I thought he'd just wound him. Same reason I didn't expect Calisto to pull out a gun in I-4 and I-5. Since AA is usually "safe", I thought they'd subvert my expectations
I know the difference. I just couldn't resist the joke
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Spoiler: GK2-5
Yeah, Gant's position brought tension, but to me it felt more like a general 'position of power' tension. They talk about how the Chief of Police has special rights, but in the end the confrontation didn't play out too differently than normal.
Hmm... Maybe I need to stop judging things based on narrow-minded cultural assumptions.
And... okay. I think we're all tapped out on this issue, and can go back to 5-4
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Just so, you know, it becomes like we didn't swing off into who knows where.
Thank goodness talk of space is back.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Thane wrote:
Self-explanatory title for a question that might have been answered months ago, but I just got curious.
See, I've heard quite a few people complaining about the fourth case, mostly because of its short length, but now that I just replayed it I can't help but feel like it offers us a lot during that short period of time. The opening is brilliant, with both Apollo and Blackquill out for blood, the defendant is more or less a space-y version of Larry (which might not appeal to some, I'll admit), the main witness is pure comedy gold and there are several good twists along the way (not to mention the ending, even if it was bound to happen at some point).
Excluding the criticism aimed towards its length, which I personally think is justified, the main problem people seem to have with it is that it is not completely resolved until the end of the fifth case. I can understand why some people would dislike that, and I'll confess it surprised me during my initial playthrough, but in retrospect, is it really all that bad? Does it really make case 4 worse? If anything I'm glad 5-4 stopped where it did, because I have major problems with the final case.
So what do you all think? Good? Bad? Great? Underrated? Or just inseperable from the fifth case?
..........Also.........did someone notice.............the ridiculous overuse of.................ellipses?
See, I've heard quite a few people complaining about the fourth case, mostly because of its short length, but now that I just replayed it I can't help but feel like it offers us a lot during that short period of time. The opening is brilliant, with both Apollo and Blackquill out for blood, the defendant is more or less a space-y version of Larry (which might not appeal to some, I'll admit), the main witness is pure comedy gold and there are several good twists along the way (not to mention the ending, even if it was bound to happen at some point).
Excluding the criticism aimed towards its length, which I personally think is justified, the main problem people seem to have with it is that it is not completely resolved until the end of the fifth case. I can understand why some people would dislike that, and I'll confess it surprised me during my initial playthrough, but in retrospect, is it really all that bad? Does it really make case 4 worse? If anything I'm glad 5-4 stopped where it did, because I have major problems with the final case.
So what do you all think? Good? Bad? Great? Underrated? Or just inseperable from the fifth case?
..........Also.........did someone notice.............the ridiculous overuse of.................ellipses?
Well I personally think of this case as one with the fifth and first case. Just split into segmented chapters. So as long as you think of it as an overarching narrative rather than a stand alone story, I believe you'll enjoy it a hell of allot more.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler: GK2-5
And... okay. I think we're all tapped out on this issue, and can go back to 5-4
We can go back to 5-4 in a sec. I just want to reply to this one point
Spoiler: GK2-5
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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JesusMonroe wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler: GK2-5
And... okay. I think we're all tapped out on this issue, and can go back to 5-4
We can go back to 5-4 in a sec. I just want to reply to this one point
Spoiler: GK2-5
I don't disagree with this, but it's still made the case feel contrived to me =\
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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LoopZoop wrote:
I really liked Case 4--I enjoyed the whole intensity of it, suddenly the tone got a lot more serious while still having some pretty good one-liners, if I remember rightly. Starbuck was a likeable character for me, too, which probably helped in the enjoyment. That, and how it finished... wow...
I can see why it could make sense for the two to be merged, personally, I like it the way it was. I think having the two cases made it longer, and in doing so meant that you cared about the characters a lot more. I don't know about anyone else, but I was pretty attached to that cast by the time it'd finished XD
I can see why it could make sense for the two to be merged, personally, I like it the way it was. I think having the two cases made it longer, and in doing so meant that you cared about the characters a lot more. I don't know about anyone else, but I was pretty attached to that cast by the time it'd finished XD
Every Ace Attorney game does this to me.
I've never heard of any complains about 5-4. I wouldn't go as far to say it's underrated because I thought it was good and got the reconition it deserved. The last cases will always get the most attention.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Bad Player wrote:
(To go on a GK2-5 tangent... the more time passes, the less I like it ~_~ After the initial Wow! factor wore off, I just felt like it was... contrived. Soooo much of it was random coincidences that happened to work out for the killer, rather than stuff they actually planned or could have possibly predicted.)
This is kinda how I see every case Yamazaki has written to play out though, and it's why I don't think his "complex crimes" work at all. Not for mystery and not for story, because the crimes are impossible to be carried out by someone with a normal human brain.
The stuff about the launch pads in 5-4 and 5-5 is again, contrivances that are perfectly designed for the crime that's gonna be carried out. It's "too good to be true-ish" and similarly the Tenma Taro vs. Nine-tailed fox confusion of 5-2 was also just some weird lore he made that seems too perfect for the crime that's being committed.
I have stressed many times before that I consider "simpler" mysteries to work better. Bruce Goodman's mystery of where he was murdered was the biggest stretch before the GK series IMO, but the wilder it gets the more it just seems like it's too perfect to be "coincidental" if you get what I mean
-- and as a result I find those complex scenarios to take me out of the experience and my immersion.
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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linkenski wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
(To go on a GK2-5 tangent... the more time passes, the less I like it ~_~ After the initial Wow! factor wore off, I just felt like it was... contrived. Soooo much of it was random coincidences that happened to work out for the killer, rather than stuff they actually planned or could have possibly predicted.)
This is kinda how I see every case Yamazaki has written to play out though, and it's why I don't think his "complex crimes" work at all. Not for mystery and not for story, because the crimes are impossible to be carried out by someone with a normal human brain.
The stuff about the launch pads in 5-4 and 5-5 is again, contrivances that are perfectly designed for the crime that's gonna be carried out. It's "too good to be true-ish" and similarly the Tenma Taro vs. Nine-tailed fox confusion of 5-2 was also just some weird lore he made that seems too perfect for the crime that's being committed.
I have stressed many times before that I consider "simpler" mysteries to work better. Bruce Goodman's mystery of where he was murdered was the biggest stretch before the GK series IMO, but the wilder it gets the more it just seems like it's too perfect to be "coincidental" if you get what I mean
-- and as a result I find those complex scenarios to take me out of the experience and my immersion.I think that's typical of the series. Yamazaki just goes overboard sometimes (the best example is like you said, 5-2)
1-4, 2-2, and 3-2 are all contrived. 1-5, 2-3, 3-3, 3-5, and 4-3 are all super contrived. AAI-3, AAI2-2, AAI2-4, and 5-2 are contrived. 5-4/5-5 and AAI2-5 are super contrived. AAI-5 is super duper contrived
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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...At least as far as locked rooms go xD
I give things like 4-3 and 5-2 a free pass, though, because it's one thing to do "This is how it happened, because that's what's necessary for the mystery to work and I say it happened that way" and another to go "This is how hit happened, because that's what follows the theme ooooooo" (I love me my themed murders)
It's really not about whether there are gigantic coincidences or not. (Although obviously, keeping stuff like 2-3 to a minimum is preferred xP) It's about whether the murderer's actions make sense given the knowledge they had. (That is, even if they didn't know about the crazy coincidences.)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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The opening was great, the main witness is hilarious, and the ending really did shock me quite a bit, even though the case was shorter than I thought. Just like all the court I went "WHAAAAAATT?!"
Spoiler:
I really like Blackquill as a character, he's very smart, and threatening but not in an OTT cartoon evil way like Fransizka was.
It did make me laugh when he told a witness to 'sod off' :D
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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grim_tales wrote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler: The answer to the question
I AM BACK KIDDOS AND I'M WATCHING YOU
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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First of all, it's really hard to think about it like a separated entity from 5-5. It's the same mystery after all, why make it two cases shorter than 5-2 and 5-3 instead of a big huge final case? It doesn't make sense. And if we split them up, then I like better 5-5 because is there when things escalate and despite all of its flaws, its still one of the most exciting cases I remember.
I also dislike the lack of a first investigation. I guess they made it to keep Apollo's subplot a mystery, but I think that getting to see the bracelet reacting to Athena and experience the same as Apollo would have being most interesting and his entrance in the UR-1 retrial would have remained striking enough.
As it is, 5-4 is a story with no beggining and with no end, and that's a huge handicap against other cases. And the case itself it's not bad, but also not great enough to compensate it. The only thing I find really memorable in it is Yuri Cosmos.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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In every case, you make it obvious that your client isn't the guilty party but some other guy/gal. But you need to provide mountains of proof against the other guy/gal and if you slip up a little, BAM, your client is still found guilty despite everything you've already proven. I don't mind this so much, despite it not being very realistic. But it was nice seeing it differently for once.
Re: Is case 5-4 underrated? (Spoilers abound)
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Thane wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
I enjoyed Case 4 more than Case 5, actually.
Never thought you and I would agree on something.
I think 5-5 is the weakest final case in the series for many reasons, one of them being relying on a pretty lame plot twist I saw coming. It also lacked the intensity of the fourth case, even with a bloody kidnapping thrown into the mix (although let's be honest, it was easy to forget about that).
Even weaker than 4-4 ??
When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth- Sherlock Holmes
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