Case 3 discussion thread (SPOILERS)

[JesusMonroe]

Discuss Case 3 here. What did you think?

[SuperAj3]

I kinda watched the dowolf translation already, but I've started playing it and am at the start. I really like it so far! Playing as Gregory is so cool, and with Badd as your assistant too!

[GentlemanGamer]

I finished this case yesterday; I was so excited to play more AAI2, I couldn't restrain myself and spent several hours just immersing myself in it Of course, that also means I am now done with every case currently available and have to wait a few MORE months before playing the next patch Ah well... that'll leave me plenty of time to replay what's available anyways Anyhoo, my thoughts on this case:

Plot: VERY long case; I think (though I'm not going to bother checking) it's probably at least as long as the last case in AAI. But it was BRILLIANT; I love how they seemlessly interwoved investigations of the past (loved playing as Gregory, btw ) to the present for one large cohesive plot. It was an interesting mystery, and the resolution to it just felt satisfying; it gave me all sorts of feels playing as both father and son in the same case, and having Miles conclude that which his father started.

Characters: Gregory (as one could surmise from the thread I created devoted to him) is AMAZING; he's an Atticus-Finch-like character who's polite, intelligent and full of heart, and playing as him was just oh so nice. Sure, ALL of the AA protagonists are good-hearted and somewhat talented, but it felt cool playing as a character who was capable as well as believably virtuous through and through; it honestly made me slightly depressed realizing he would later die and I would probably never play as him again I also enjoyed interacting with a young Ray Shields; I like that FOR ONCE the sidekick character is not a perky young female, but a... er... perky young male character. There's probably a better way of describing way, but in short; he felt likable and unique, and I liked that. The other original characters for this case were all pretty good as well; Jeff Masters and Katherine Hall were both sweet and sympathetic, Ms. Delicous (I don't remember her actual name of the top of my head) was quirky and cute, and the villain (I won't say his name, even though I'm technically allowed to mention spoilers) was perfectly dastardly with a solid underlying (though unsympathetic) reason for his cruelty. They made more of an impression then me then most new non-main characters thus far, but failed to outshine Gregory in my books. On a different note, I liked the recurrance of certain characters in this case: Tyrell Badd's reappearence was surprising and welcome, Manfred Von Karma's reappearence was also welcome if only to serve as a foil to Gregory, Larry's reappearence was... predictable actually but pleasantly familiar, and I appreciated the DeLites' cameo appearance (ugh... I used the word appearence 4 TIMES in this sentence. The writer in me inwardly cringes) for obvious nostalgia purposes.

Overall: SUPERB case; I enjoyed this much more then any other offerings I've played in the AAI spin-off series thus far, and many of those in the main series as well. What's unbelievable to me though is this is only Case 3; how will the next two possibly one-up this? I look forward to finding out

[JesusMonroe]

Case 4 is the weakest case in the game IMO. It has a very strong beginning but just falls apart at the end. I'm in the minority on that, though, as most people think Case 2 is the weakest. Case 4 isn't bad, though. The others are just better (though this is a case with a separate murder and mystery from Case 5 that can stand alone on its own, unlike most Case 4s in the series)

But Case 5...just you wait

[GentlemanGamer]

Case 4 is the weakest case in the game IMO. It has a very strong beginning but just falls apart at the end. I'm in the minority on that, though, as most people think Case 2 is the weakest. Case 4 isn't bad, though. The others are just better (though this is a case with a separate murder and mystery from Case 5 that can stand alone on its own, unlike most Case 4s in the series)

But Case 5...just you wait

Oh boy oh boy oh boy oh boy, can't wait Well, I'll have to, but it's nice to have something to look forward to anyways And that's cool that case 4 is standalone, even if it isn't the best in the game; if they release two seperate patches in the future for the next two cases, at least we won't be left with a MASSIVE cliffhanger or anything

[JesusMonroe]

Who said there wasn't a cliffhanger?

Anyway, I mostly agree with what you said. If GK didn't have the interconnected plots between the cases and it was just Edgeworth investigating a bunch of separate murders until a big finale, I wouldn't mind if this case was the finale of GK2

I pretty much agree with everything that you said, especially about Gregory. I love that guy and it's just so tragic that he died trying to get an innocent man out of prison and still failed in the end

I'm assuming Katherine Hall is the girl with the tablecloth (I'm not good with the patch names) but I really liked her and her theme (I liked Jeff Masters theme as well). Her entire story was tragic, especially how she inadvertently got her father figure sent to prison. They even had me going for a little bit thinking that she was the killer until they mentioned the rules for the Statute of Limitations being tolled and then I knew that would come into play with the culprit

And yes, the culprit. Amazing theme and amazing breakdown (kind of wish he sculpted Miles or Gregory and then chopped them in half, though). He's also a pretty good villain, too. Given him motive and how much of an asshole the victim was, they could've easily made him a sympathetic murderer but he was fucking sadistic. He didn't care that his son disappeared because he saw him as weak and he laughed at the fact that someone was rotting in jail in his place. I also liked how they made a point to say that he wasn't smart and he was just very lucky

This case might actually be the darkest in the series. I'm not sure. Maybe 1-5 or 3-4 can top it but this one is definitely in the top 5

Also, this case had motherfuckin' Tyrell Badd

[GentlemanGamer]

Who said there wasn't a cliffhanger?

Anyway, I mostly agree with what you said. If GK didn't have the interconnected plots between the cases and it was just Edgeworth investigating a bunch of separate murders until a big finale, I wouldn't mind if this case was the finale of GK2

I pretty much agree with everything that you said, especially about Gregory. I love that guy and it's just so tragic that he died trying to get an innocent man out of prison and still failed in the end

I'm assuming Katherine Hall is the girl with the tablecloth (I'm not good with the patch names) but I really liked her and her theme (I liked Jeff Masters theme as well). Her entire story was tragic, especially how she inadvertently got her father figure sent to prison. They even had me going for a little bit thinking that she was the killer until they mentioned the rules for the Statute of Limitations being tolled and then I knew that would come into play with the culprit

And yes, the culprit. Amazing theme and amazing breakdown (kind of wish he sculpted Miles or Gregory and then chopped them in half, though). He's also a pretty good villain, too. Given him motive and how much of an asshole the victim was, they could've easily made him a sympathetic murderer but he was fucking sadistic. He didn't care that his son disappeared because he saw him as weak and he laughed at the fact that someone was rotting in jail in his place. I also liked how they made a point to say that he wasn't smart and he was just very lucky

This case might actually be the darkest in the series. I'm not sure. Maybe 1-5 or 3-4 can top it but this one is definitely in the top 5

Also, this case had motherfuckin' Tyrell Badd

Darn I hope they release the next two cases soon and together then; otherwise that cliffhanger (?) will likely drive me insane

Yep, pretty much Usually Case 3s aren't stellar: Turnabout Samurai (AA), Turnabout Big Top (AA2), Recipe for Turnabout (AA3), Turnabout Serenade (AA4) and the Kidnapped Turnabout (AAI) were all good cases, but not fantastic; they felt more filler-y if anything Really GOOD filler, but filler nonetheless. This case and one other exception -Turnabout Academy- is the only time the middle case turned out fantastic, and is definitely good enough to be final case material in and of itself

Yep RIP Gregory Edgeworth, and curse you Von Karma, curse you I realize Gregory's death was necessary to make the whole plot for AA1 work, but after getting to know him I wish that wasn't the case Ah well, ce la AA; such is Ace Attorney

I LOVED Katherine Hall, and the twist involving her; both her character and her plot twist was so well done. I wasn't sure what to think about her for the longest time; she had to play SOME role in the crime, but Shields believed in her so and I just couldn't believe she would kill someone and blame it on her mentor. I mean, after getting to know her, that just made no sense to me. It was actually a bit of a relief when it was finally proven that she wasn't the culprit, though it was rather tragic that her actions were what caused Masters to be in prison as long as he had

He was a good villain; he was completely sadistic and perfectly despicable, and it felt so GOOD bringing him down. And I agree; it would've been MUCH more fitting if he chopped a candy Edgeworth in half instead of himself, but meh. It is what it is

I would say that 3-4 is probably the darkest in the series due to the fact it's the only time in the series the villain actually WINS and the defendant dies, but this comes pretty close I think. I mean, sure Gregory dies-which is unbelievably tragic in and of itself- but at least the defendant he fought for got off innocent by the end of the case, even if it DID take 18 years.

And YES, I agree about Badd; the fact he's in this case makes it all sorts of win in and of itself BEST detective in the series by far.... though Gumshoe comes at a close second, or perhaps a tie

[SweetieBot]

Any idea about when will the last case be released? I haven't played the first three cases yet because I'm waiting until the whole game is out.

[GentlemanGamer]

Any idea about when will the last case be released? I haven't played the first three cases yet because I'm waiting until the whole game is out.

The translators -as far as I can tell- don't like to give any specific release dates, as they can't be certain they'll be done by the timeline they give us. However, I think they said that they're aiming for a Fall 2014 release date; it could end up being released a little later or a little earlier, but that's their goal

[linkenski]

I've spend so much time playing PLvPWAA this weekend and i'm only at chapter 4, and the 3DS keeps drying its battery out, so I've found myself switching over to AAI2 on my DSi whenever the 3DS is in the charger.

So far I'm not liking the direction of case 3 with all the fluffy baker-stuff and the fact that this is now canon that it was Gregory's last case... but people keep saying that this is the "best case 3 evar" and stuff, so I am intrigued to see it through

[samboo1]

Just finished this case now...how about those onions, huh? Totally cried at the end. I found this case really sad! It's the only time I've cried at an AA case. It just seemed really melancholic playing Gregory's last case, realising what a legend he was, and then 18 years later solving it as his son. Dunno, it had a lot more to it in terms of nostalgia and deepness than most AA cases I think, and I really liked it. Not to mention...Tyrell Badd. Gotta love him.

Courtney is annoying me, I don't like her. I don't mind Debeste because he's so pathetic it's almost likable and it's 'cute' seeing Edgeworth sort of give him advice and stuff. Hall and Masters were both good characters too. I'm really liking Shields. Saw most people in the other thread saying they don't like cameos but I personally really like them. The more the better for me, so I was happy to see Larry.

Overall good case. To be honest the actual case story line itself was nothing to write home about, but the format with playing as Gregory made up for it so I'm not lingering on that too much.

[JesusMonroe]

Along with Edgeworth, Adrian Andrews, Vera Misham, Juniper (case 3), Rhoda, and

Spoiler: Case 4

Kay

, Issei Tenkai is one of the few defendants in the series who I absolutely wanted to prove innocent at all costs

[Xzedopau]

I absolutely loved Gregory's performance.

He believes in his client in a bit more virtuous manner than Mia or Phoenix. It would be fun to have more cases in the past with him.

[Nearavex]

I only finished both "past" sections and I love everything about it. The characters, Gregory as defense attorney, Badd as detective in charge, Manfred actually opposing defense attorney's investigation, it was a good show.

Presenting his argument to the defense attorney before the trial seemed out of character for Manfred, but I feel it was justfied well (making sure the relationship of Gustavia and Dover isn't brought up on trial)

I also liked how the case felt a bit more realistically about the defense attorney's role, at least when it comes to Badd's approach to the matter. No, really, Badd was good enough in AAI, but in this case, I felt he really got even better.

[TheDoctor]

Here's a question, why did von Karma charge Masters as an accomplice? Did he actually care enough to catch the real guilty party but not enough to ruin his perfect win record?

[JesusMonroe]

Since the body went missing, that threw a wrench into the "Masters is the murderer" theory. He lowered the charge to accomplice so he could still get his guilty verdict. Von Karma doesn't give a shit about the guilty party; he just wanted to win

[Nearavex]

You cannot find a person guilty of murder without the body or at least the evidence supporting the way it was removed/destroyed. Technically, without any leads on the body, the murder never officially happened.

That is why the charge was changed to "accomplice". For any other prosecutor, even that much would be impossible, but the game makes it quite clear he isn't just 'any prosecutor'. Also, not to mention that he got the charges in paperwork changed from "accomplice to murder" to "murder" after the case got closed.

I don't think he gave any of that a second thought.

[WaitingforGodot]

This case pissed me off in so many ways. It felt like it went on forever, I thought this candy-business was obnoxious to the point that I thought "damn, that's humiliating - to have such a case as one's last one" about Gregory. But.
Gregory per se was a wonderful character, and I could stand the candy-silliness just because I really loved seeing him and younger Shigaraki interacting with one another and with other people. Those were the parts I longed for even before visiting the case. Younger Shigaraki was absolutely amazing, as much as I love his thirty-six year old self I must say I prefer the young version. The boy was so endearing that... well, the sheer sweetness made me incredibly touched.
But when those parts were over I got so tired of the whole rigmarole I ended up wanting to punch just about everyone in their faces.

[linkenski]

I'm replaying AAI2 right now and I'm on case 3... and something is slightly bothering me, but I'll admit it's probably a nitpick to most other people:

There's a lot of talking between the characters about what it means to be a defense attorney; throughout the whole game, as well as in this case, but it seems the whole "defense attorneys believe in their clients" has now been generalized to apply to most defense attorneys (as if it's a rule or something) which IMO clashes with how it was portrayed in PWAA and it makes Mia and Nick seem less special. In Dual Destinies the "believe in your client" mindset also affected Apollo Justice in the end but it made slightly more sense given he's under Nick's teachings, But I feel, in AAI2, it's this one-size-fits all kind of thing.

In the first Ace Attorney Robert Hammond was a character who was important to show the difference between lawyers, and to tell us that it's not just about Defense = Good and Prosecution = Bad, it's about the individual lawyer's stance and motivation for doing their jobs. That's what seperated Nick/Mia from the rest, and its what eventually makes Edgeworth change and grow as he also realizes this fact. Then, in AAI2 it's as if every defense attorney has the Mia-mindset "Believe in your client", and I feel like it's a misinterpretation of what was meant in PWAA, or at least a very simplified and generalized way to interpret it.

(Optional and totally subjective critique:)
As an extension of the above criticism, I also feel Gregory could've been characterized better here. You can see where some of Edgeworth's mannerisms originated from, but that rubs me the wrong way, since Edgeworth's stuck-up-ness is inherited more from his time under Von Karma than his own father's, and therefore I feel like Gregory should've been a bit more casual or laid-back.

The way Gregory goes through the interrogating process as well as investigating in a more step-by-step analytical is just kinda meh. I don't really like how he analyses his clients like that, and I feel like it should've been presented differently. (Sorry, I'm struggling to phrase myself correctly lol)

[JesusMonroe]

I was fine with Gregory's character and I loved playing as him, but I do wish he was written a little differently. The first thing he thinks when he sees Tenkai is that he needs to "assess whether or not he's guilty to decide if he can defend him." It would've been interesting to have a defense attorney who realizes that giving every man a fair trial is virtuous and that the problem with the law system is that not everybody gets an equal and fair chance

It seemed like they were going this direction with Shigaraki since he was to be Naito's defense attorney but...

Spoiler: Case 5

He probably would've purposely failed that case, just as he did with Miwa's trial (he literally objected when she was about to get a not guilty verdict)

[Nurio]

I'm replaying AAI2 right now and I'm on case 3... and something is slightly bothering me, but I'll admit it's probably a nitpick to most other people:

I honestly can't add any more other than saying I agree. This is something I've also noticed. Nowadays every defense attorney believes in their client 'til the bitter end and can cause a miraculous turnabout. I'd like to see more mediocre and by-the-book or morally questionable defense attorneys again just to show that the player characters really are special
(The above is also part of why I don't like Athena. She's just another prodigy attorney with the same mindset and abilities as other ace attorneys. ...But that's a complaint for another thread.)

[MBr]

I gotta agree about Gregory. Mia and Phoenix were unique because of their belief in their clients. I don't understand why Gregory was like that, although I believe that a comparison was made between Mia and Gregory.

The cases in GK2 are all better than the first Investigations, but I think case 3 stands above all the other cases and the game itself. Although it does have the same problem as the previous case, in that it's too long.

[Slammer]

I actually think the contrast between Mia/Phoenix and Gregory is pretty good. They are all good lawyers, but they have their own ways of being such. Personally, I prefer Gregory's.

[Jean Descole]

I gotta agree about Gregory. Mia and Phoenix were unique because of their belief in their clients. I don't understand why Gregory was like that, although I believe that a comparison was made between Mia and Gregory.

Now that you mention it, there was that comment Grossberg made about Gregory in 1-4.

Spoiler:

Talk (Grossberg)
> Gregory Edgeworth

Phoenix: What do you know about Edgeworth's father?

Grossberg: ...
He was a defense attorney without peer.
It sounds trite, but it's true.
Well, he may have had one peer now that I think about it.
Your mentor, Mia Fey.

Maya: My sister...?

Grossberg: Gregory Edgeworth was very disapproving of Mr. von Karma's techniques.

Phoenix: (That's no surprise...)

Grossberg: von Karma is an extreme man. Forged testimonies and evidence are nothing to him.
The result: he has a perfect win record in court.
To beat him, Gregory Edgeworth tried to call attention to his methods.

Maya: And...?

Grossberg: He lost.
And died in despair, as it were.

Maya: I see...

I don't know if Grossberg meant that Gregory was the "believe in your client" type but the man was definitely against dirty tactics.

[linkenski]

I gotta agree about Gregory. Mia and Phoenix were unique because of their belief in their clients. I don't understand why Gregory was like that, although I believe that a comparison was made between Mia and Gregory.

Now that you mention it, there was that comment Grossberg made about Gregory in 1-4.

Spoiler:

Talk (Grossberg)
> Gregory Edgeworth

Phoenix: What do you know about Edgeworth's father?

Grossberg: ...
He was a defense attorney without peer.
It sounds trite, but it's true.
Well, he may have had one peer now that I think about it.
Your mentor, Mia Fey.

Maya: My sister...?

Grossberg: Gregory Edgeworth was very disapproving of Mr. von Karma's techniques.

Phoenix: (That's no surprise...)

Grossberg: von Karma is an extreme man. Forged testimonies and evidence are nothing to him.
The result: he has a perfect win record in court.
To beat him, Gregory Edgeworth tried to call attention to his methods.

Maya: And...?

Grossberg: He lost.
And died in despair, as it were.

Maya: I see...

I don't know if Grossberg meant that Gregory was the "believe in your client" type but the man was definitely against dirty tactics.

It was definitely to say that Gregory was simply a just attorney like Mia. Either way it's not that AAI2 contradicted anything that was set up in the storyline... I just wish there was a bit more nuance to it.

I gotta agree about Gregory. Mia and Phoenix were unique because of their belief in their clients. I don't understand why Gregory was like that, although I believe that a comparison was made between Mia and Gregory.

The cases in GK2 are all better than the first Investigations, but I think case 3 stands above all the other cases and the game itself. Although it does have the same problem as the previous case, in that it's too long.

I just beat Case 3 again, and I gotta say... while the story itself is good and quite touching, I think it feels very stale. This is where GK probably suffers from not having the juxtaposition between investigations and courtroom segments, because at some point I stopped up to think "Haven't we been standing in the same position by this fountain for almost the entire case now? (and one of the longest in the series, at that!)

While we get a lot of good exposition and a great backstory revealed here, I never really felt like much happened in this case, aside from the premise of both IS-7 and the present case.

I kinda like the second case a little bit better when it comes to how it keeps my interest, but of course there's no denying I2-3 is a much better story.

[Pierre]

I really liked Gregory's 'hurt' animation.

It's like "GWAAAH...Heh heh...that all you got?" with that cheeky little knowing smile at the end of it.

[Going for Miles]

I love that animation too, although I interpret the smile as awkward rather than cheeky.

[Pierre]

I love that animation too, although I interpret the smile as awkward rather than cheeky.

Dunno always looked a bit sardonic to me.

[Oliver]

I thought of it as him trying to look unphased, but in reality just looking goofy and thinking to himself, "I'm fucked..."

[Going for Miles]

I thought of it as him trying to look unphased, but in reality just looking goofy and thinking to himself, "I'm fucked..."

Haha, excactly, that was my impression too.

[linkenski]

Yeah, I interpret it as "Heh, I'm not done yet!"

[MBr]

I think it's best that I post here, rather than make a new thread. Anyway: I've got two questions.

How did Gustavia actually move the body? He moved it after Kate had discovered it, and Delicia said she saw him enter Dover's room. She didn't say anything about him carrying anything (or not carrying anything). But that could have been his first trip. Gustavia made two trips to Dover's room: the first was to scrape the blood off the rock salt lamp and put it in the lyre, and the second was to bring the body to Dover's room to disguise it in the sculpture.

Second: would Gustavia actually be tried in court? The reason why he was arrested was because his crime was still within the statute of limitations. If Master's charge of being an accomplice is erased (as Ray says he'll try to do), then Gustavia would be outside of the statute of limitations' reach.

[Going for Miles]

It was definitely more engaging than I remembered it to be. It's mostly the present day parts that feel a bit... filler. Other than Hall's schemings and trapping Gustavia I don't feel there was a lot of merit in having it continue to present day at all. At least not in as big chunks, I'm sure it would have worked to have the beginning in the present, the vast majority in the past, and then wrapping it up in the present. And that's assuming it had to be past + present in the first place. I mean, sure it's beautiful that Miles got to finish the case his father started but... muh. The case as a whole might even have gained from not having to be written around that premise. I just didn't feel like the player got a lot to do in those investigations, although I did appreciate the threewaywammy of catching Gustavia using logic, logic chess and testimony.

Otherwise... this case is just really sad. Playing as someone we know will get murdered not too long after (and talking to his murderer-to-be to boot), poor Jeff Master completely breaking and then being in prison for eighteen years, Hall knowing she's partly to blame by accident and that damn Gustavia abandoning his son over a baking contest. Even so it didn't have that devastating feeling of, say 3-5. Maybe it was the atmosphere that managed to make it feel a little more jolly and hopeful.

The main reasons why I'd have preferred the entire case to be set in the past are four: Badd; young Shigaraki; Gregory; Badd, young Shigaraki and Gregory together. I love them each individually, and their dynamics are amazing, so I would have loved to get to investigate more with the three of them because it was such a joy. It might even be my favourite playercharacterinvestigationpartner(s)mashup, especially with how, even though Shigaraki is cheerful and energetic like so many assistants before him, they don't really have that straight man-cloudcuckoolander relations, they just... play off each other well and all three of them are a little kooky at times.
Shigaraki: I wonder what would be inside it?
Badd: ...A giant strawberry... would fit with the cream.
Shigaraki: Detective Badd. I don't think strawberries are hexagonical.
Badd: I was just... hoping...
Shigaraki: Then I hope it's a banana!
Gregory: (...I think I'd prefer blueberries.)

The rest of the characters are good too. Gustavia is good at being an absolutely horrible person. Delicia, Jeff and Katherine Hall are very charming. I don't know why I found Katherine annyoing first time I played the case, I like her now. And that sprite where she's crying and makes that silly smile is adorable. Present day Shigaraki creeps me out a little. I liked Courtney here better than in case 2. Yumihiko is a total dear and even though I generally hate cross-examinations or rebuttals or whatever in the investigations games I kind of love we had one just because Yumihiko misheard something on the phone and is also dumb. Larry actually fit into this case. And I will never stop finding it hilarryous that the first time I played the case, when Gustavia was found unconscious I first completely missed him so from my perspective, Shigaraki and Edgeworth ran to the fountain patio, the suspense music is playing and we see... Larry who has tripped and is sitting on the floor. Right. Speaking of suspense music: "It would seem this doorknob isn't a dessert." *cue suspense music* looks really funny out of its context.

[Southern Corn]

This one took about as long as the second case to finish for me. It admittedly got a little bit tiring at times. That said it's undoubtedly the most well paced case of the whole game, with each of the segments being only about an hour, which is quite a relief after the heaviness of the first two cases. The best parts of this case involves how it ties in heavily into how AA even got started, and it does get seriously tragic once the flashback part is over and Tateyuki recaps everything that happened afterwards. Even then though, it's still a little bittersweet since Oyashiki has to go to jail now that Tenkai is out. Like GfM said too, the dynamic between Badd, Gregory and young Tateyuki is great. The end with capturing Gustavia is also great, especially with the loophole in the statute of limitations.

Worst part of this case though is undoubtedly Larry. He has absolutely no business being in a case like this, and his role isn't even that original. He just serves to mess things up and draw a sketch which turns out to be a major clue. Blaaaaah. Get outta here, Larry. Thankfully he stays out of the rest of the game, at least.

[Going for Miles]

I think "bittersweet" is a good word to describe the feeling of this case at large. Which I guess fits its theme as well!

[Southern Corn]

The Bitter Taste of Truth would've been a perfect fit for this case, honestly.

[CrawdKenny]

I don't get in the enD how if

Spoiler:

time was already stopped in the statue of limitations, how it can be stopped again so the same three year period actually counts as for years.

. I get the feeling this case is going to whatever equivalent of the supreme court exists in the aa world.