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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Zhang Juanli (Rabbit)

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What was so hard to understand about Cid? If you mean his turning into a statue, well that was a red herring.
Great Gods? Who cares.
Cavalry is like Avalanche, only they don't blow things up. They just kill certain people.
Jihl was a decoy villain, I guess you'd say.
Who cares about the politics?


I'm surprised you didn't see it but based on the fact that two people brought it up in the first place...at least WE cared about it. Not everyone doesn't appreciate World-building the way you do.

I had no idea who Cid was or that he was even the "Cid" of this game when he was waltzing in and acting all important. I thought it was strange they were acting like such a character was meaningful when we hardly had any interaction or knew anything about him.

The Great Gods? Considering the hand they have in the ending and future sequels and the fact they pretty much are at the core of the plot it's pretty important.

Cavalry (based on a look at the FF wiki) seems more closer to the Red Wings than Avalanche. Seeing how they are an established Airborne Branch of the Military. They might be run and have the ideology of a renegade but they are still official. Avalanche is just a grassroots terrorist group run out of a slum.

It's all pointless to say in hindsight and I'm not going to debate these things, that's beside the point.

The point is:
Some people like to know these things, for some people World-Building (especially important things like how a Society even functions) can make up quite a large part of whether people consider the game good or not. XIII hid important information away in the optional datalog, information you don't consider important but other people do.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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I had no idea who Cid was or that he was even the "Cid" of this game when he was waltzing in and acting all important.


Wasn't he introduced as Cid Raines? :eh?: Again, my latest XIII playthrough was a few months ago, in Japanese and I was in Chapter 11 so I can't remember the early scenes too well.

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Considering the hand they have in the ending and future sequels and the fact they pretty much are at the core of the plot it's pretty important.


They don't have a hand in the ending. I don't understand why people think they did - Barthy used an illusion to annoy Fang enough to make her turn Ragnarok and the ending scene is identical to their focus. They fulfilled their focus, we just never saw the part of creating a pillar or out of crystal stasis during the focus.
I don't care what cop-out Square pulled out of its ass to explain it to people who didn't realize the link between focus and ending.

And really, they aren't important. Etro has a background role in XIII-2 and her only active role is to die - off-screen, by the way. Bhuni only shows up really at the end of LR and is the big bad, revealing that he wants people to be his puppets. They were mentioned but they are like the Gods in real life - you never see them, but people mention them and hold them in high regard. (I'd better stop this line immediately before we get into a religion talk...)

Quote:
Cavalry (based on a look at the FF wiki) seems more closer to the Red Wings than Avalanche. Seeing how they are an established Airborne Branch of the Military. They might be run and have the ideology of a renegade but they are still official. Avalanche is just a grassroots terrorist group run out of a slum.


It doesn't matter, they still stand for the civilians of Cocoon and hate the Fal'Cie. They are against the government, despite having an official label they more work against them.

Quote:
XIII hid important information away in the optional datalog, information you don't consider important but other people do.


None of it was important - leaving aside the world building aspect, nothing was impossible to understand in XIII unless you played blind, deaf, stupid and humming something off-key so you don't have to pay attention to what's going on. And if someone played like that, they have no-one but themselves to blame for not understanding what's going on.

I'm talking purely about understanding the plot. I'm not talking about the World. The world is the background and it should stay there unless it's vitally important to know to understand the plot.

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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Zhang Juanli (Rabbit)

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None of it was important - leaving aside the world building aspect, nothing was impossible to understand in XIII unless you played blind, deaf, stupid and humming something off-key so you don't have to pay attention to what's going on. And if someone played like that, they have no-one but themselves to blame for not understanding what's going on.

I'm talking purely about understanding the plot. I'm not talking about the World. The world is the background and it should stay there unless it's vitally important to know to understand the plot.


You know this is my problem with you.

You can't even CONSIDER other people's perspectives without deriding them with some kind of insult. "They can't have a different viewpoint, it's so clear, they must be idiots,"

It's not hard to live in peace and accept others. Even when outnumbered and people are saying "Actually I think that too..." you still stick to your guns and say "Well there's more idiots then," than sooner admit "Well perhaps other people have a different opinion on the matter."

It's not that people are right, not me, not you, it's just a matter of perspective. It's when you take that perspective and say "You are an idiot, this is how things were," that's where I take issues.

But whatever I'm done with this for now you clearly have no understanding of how to coexist with the world. I'm not surprised you seem to have a life filled with hardships :ron:
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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New source of power? ...what source of power? I don't remember right now...

I don't know, I only looked at the first four hours, and apparently electric lights are suddenly possible again. It's like if our world was suddenly cut off from fossil fuels in the 1950s and then we suddenly perfected wind power three years later.
CatMuto wrote:
And really, they aren't important. Etro has a background role in XIII-2 and her only active role is to die - off-screen, by the way. Bhuni only shows up really at the end of LR and is the big bad, revealing that he wants people to be his puppets. They were mentioned but they are like the Gods in real life - you never see them, but people mention them and hold them in high regard. (I'd better stop this line immediately before we get into a religion talk...)

From what I've been spoiled on about LR
Spoiler:
Light declares humans are a capable species on their own without any gods, and then summons Odin. ...What's the thread of logic here?

Quote:
I'm talking purely about understanding the plot. I'm not talking about the World. The world is the background and it should stay there unless it's vitally important to know to understand the plot.

It's a game about saving the world. If you want the audience to care, you might as well let them know about the world, especially one so alien from our own. So when the majority of humans are shown not to be capable of thinking for themselves, I'm almost in agreement with Barthy's plan.
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sumguy28 wrote:
From what I've been spoiled on about LR
Spoiler:
Light declares humans are a capable species on their own without any gods, and then summons Odin. ...What's the thread of logic here?


Actually, Lightning doesn't necessarily summon Odin to defeat Bhuni - sure she tells him that humans are capable without Gods governing over them and eidolons are summoned to hit him (with Noel having stolen Brunhidlr from Sazh, poor guy) but it's still Light who defeated him. Or, at the very least, dealt the biggest blow to him in order to save Hope.
There's more to that scene of Light saying they don't need gods since it happens after she admits she wants to reject the role of Etro.

Quote:
It's a game about saving the world. If you want the audience to care, you might as well let them know about the world, especially one so alien from our own. So when the majority of humans are shown not to be capable of thinking for themselves, I'm almost in agreement with Barthy's plan.


And if videogames wanted me to give a crap about the supposed love interests I'm supposed to save, they'd spend a good hour or two just letting me get to know the person AS a person and not the role they fulfill. :ron:

Face it, it's a save the world plot, you don't need to know a reason why, you just do it. It's just like in Pokémon: do I WANT to save the world? Not really, I just wanna fight Pokémon, Gym Leaders and collect Badges and be the Champion. But I have to save the world cause otherwise the game won't let me continue, the bitch.

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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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The reason I like world building so much has to do with a little something I like to call immersion. If I don't get immersed in the game I'm playing, I get bored and quit. Same with reading. I want to be immersed in the world of the book. Good world building adds a lot to immersion, which is why I appreciate it so much. If I want to go play a bare bones game with no immersion or world building whatsoever and a cut and dry save the world plot, I might as well go play Final Fantasy 1.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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CatMuto wrote:
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It's a game about saving the world. If you want the audience to care, you might as well let them know about the world, especially one so alien from our own. So when the majority of humans are shown not to be capable of thinking for themselves, I'm almost in agreement with Barthy's plan.


And if videogames wanted me to give a crap about the supposed love interests I'm supposed to save, they'd spend a good hour or two just letting me get to know the person AS a person and not the role they fulfill. :ron:

Face it, it's a save the world plot, you don't need to know a reason why, you just do it. It's just like in Pokémon: do I WANT to save the world? Not really, I just wanna fight Pokémon, Gym Leaders and collect Badges and be the Champion. But I have to save the world cause otherwise the game won't let me continue, the bitch.

You do the save the world plot in Pokémon without caring so you can get back to the main focus of Pokémon, but when the main focus of XIII is saving the world, you can accept it without care?
dullahan1 wrote:
The reason I like world building so much has to do with a little something I like to call immersion. If I don't get immersed in the game I'm playing, I get bored and quit. Same with reading. I want to be immersed in the world of the book. Good world building adds a lot to immersion, which is why I appreciate it so much. If I want to go play a bare bones game with no immersion or world building whatsoever and a cut and dry save the world plot, I might as well go play Final Fantasy 1.

Engagement, not immersion.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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No, I meant immersion. I like the fantasy games because it gives me a break from the real world for a time and I can get lost in the world of the game. So immersion.

By definition: state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
The reason I like world building so much has to do with a little something I like to call immersion.


'cuse me, but I just plain don't buy this immersion stuff with videogames. You will always be aware that you are not actually in the game or its story and that you are holding some type of controller in your hand to perform actions in the game.

Quote:
You do the save the world plot in Pokémon without caring so you can get back to the main focus of Pokémon, but when the main focus of XIII is saving the world, you can accept it without care?


It pisses me off in Pokémon because, as I've repeatedly stated, it has no place in a Pokémon game. In a Final Fantasy game, heck even a Tales Of game, you go into the game expecting to save the world because you just know that's gonna be the thing you'll do. You don't do that in Pokémon.

Quote:
By definition: state of being deeply engaged or involved; absorption.


I'm all for being engaged in games or even a book, but not to the point that I forget the world around me. Not to mention that the fantasy world is generally not a much better place than the real world to begin with, because they all have problems that are gonna be annoying.

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Not the point I'm making. XIII wants us, the players, to be invested in saving a world, by claiming that it's worth it for just the six party members, while every single person on Cocoon (except maybe NORA and Hope's dad) is the kind of person who can easily turn a blind eye to the Purge when, given the information they had, there was such an easier alternate solution. And then their method of saving the world came with several problems, but we've discussed that long enough to make any more headway into that.

And on the topic of immersion, (I feel like I've linked this exact article on this forum before)
Quote:
Briefly, spatial presence is often defined as existing when “media contents are perceived as ‘real’ in the sense that media users experience a sensation of being spatially located in the mediated environment.”2 The idea is just that a game (or any other media from books to movies) creates spatial presence when the user starts to feel like he is “there” in the world that the game creates. People who experience immersion tend to only consider choices that make sense in the context of the imaginary world. Someone immersed in Red Dead Redemption, for example, might be more likely to use travel methods that make sense within the game, like stagecoaches, instead of methods that don’t, like fast traveling from a menu screen. People immersed in media also tend to enjoy it more.

...

Of course, players have some say in how immersed they get in a game. Some people just have more spatial ability and can build those mental models of game worlds more readily and make them more vibrant. And researchers have found that people have an “absorption trait” which means that they’re quicker to get fascinated by something and drawn into it –something I like to think of this as “the fanboy gene.”

Other times the player takes a more active role. Some players simply want to believe in the illusion, and will induce their own bias towards accepting the “I am there” hypothesis. In this state, they’ll require less confirmatory information to accept that hypothesis and less disconfirming information to reject it. This is also similar to the idea of “suspension of disbelief” where players wilfully ignore stuff that doesn’t make sense (like thunderous explosions in space or the fact that enemy soldiers can soak up a dozen of gunshots without going down) in order to just have a good time.

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Re: The Final Fantasy franchiseTopic%20Title
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Cat, I'm always aware I'm holding a controller, but that doesn't mean a game can't pull me into its environment. I'm just gonna drop it here though. I guess what engrosses and entices me into a video game is just plain doesn't do it for you. I wasn't trying to defend my point, more like just explain why I like it, but it's become nothing more than an absurd argument that's going absolutely nowhere. I'll respect your point that you don't like added details to a game outside a main story and move on.
On April 3, 2016, Court Records Forums experienced a miracle upon that day.
CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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XIII wants us, the players, to be invested in saving a world, by claiming that it's worth it for just the six party members, while every single person on Cocoon (except maybe NORA and Hope's dad) is the kind of person who can easily turn a blind eye to the Purge when, given the information they had, there was such an easier alternate solution.


Honestly, no game has made me want to save the world because of any NPCs or important characters in it, whether the former were named or weren't. Tales of Symphonia is filled with racist people who don't give a damn that the Desians are only following the deranged psychopathic rants of a sister-obsessed child, they hate them and don't care what is behind it. Similarly, the people in Knight of Ratatosk - why would I want to save them? All of them are classist assholes who hate the Sylvarants or Tethe'allans because they're different. (And no the old characters from Symphonia do NOT make me want to save the world because they were made blander than toast and the new characters are so annoying that I care even less)

What other easier solution? All they knew is that the Purge was done because something from Pulse (ZOMG PULSE, APOCALYPSE!!) was sighted as active in Bodhum and that every person in Bodhum was going to be relocated to Pulse as a way to prevent any spreading of... whooooooo~ evil Pulse... electrons~ or something. The other people didn't care because they were just glad they weren't picked for the Purge. They don't care that they have been told from birth onward that Pulse is practically HELL as long as they themselves are safe.
As for the people on the train, mostly figured those are shellshocked.

Quote:
Cat, I'm always aware I'm holding a controller, but that doesn't mean a game can't pull me into its environment.


I understand what you mean, but I guess using the word immersion for that is just a berserk button for me because it feels like the worst word to use.

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Quote:
Honestly, no game has made me want to save the world because of any NPCs or important characters in it, whether the former were named or weren't. Tales of Symphonia is filled with racist people who don't give a damn that the Desians are only following the deranged psychopathic rants of a sister-obsessed child, they hate them and don't care what is behind it.

Dirk, Chocolat, Kate, Orochi, Altessa, Seles, king of Tethe'alla; point being Symphonia bothers to show there are more people on the planet outside of the protagonists that either aren't racist asshats or are willing to change. XIII is okay with letting you think everyone but the main party is an idiot. (and even then...)
Quote:
What other easier solution? All they knew is that the Purge was done because something from Pulse (ZOMG PULSE, APOCALYPSE!!) was sighted as active in Bodhum and that every person in Bodhum was going to be relocated to Pulse as a way to prevent any spreading of... whooooooo~ evil Pulse... electrons~ or something. The other people didn't care because they were just glad they weren't picked for the Purge. They don't care that they have been told from birth onward that Pulse is practically HELL as long as they themselves are safe.
As for the people on the train, mostly figured those are shellshocked.

https://youtu.be/yxMcuzOgVrU?t=2h39m20s
They know that a fal'Cie is active in Bodhum. They also know from their own fal'Cie that the most harm it can do is brand a l'Cie. Going by Snow's reaction to Serah's brand, the glowing l'Cie brand is common knowledge on Cocoon. The brand is permanently visible on the skin of the l'Cie until time is up. The conclusion is that they quarantined a l'Cie in Bodhum with a brand that can only be hidden from view by clothing. The people have two ways of smoking out the l'Cie: strip-search everyone for a glowing brand... or just send them all to an uncivilized land full of monsters. And even if they didn't understand that, there had to be at least some unrest, like "my wife and kid are still in Bodhum." What about the people administering the Purge? How do they even benefit from it? The evulz?
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Dirk, Chocolat, Kate, Orochi, Altessa, Seles, king of Tethe'alla; point being Symphonia bothers to show there are more people on the planet outside of the protagonists that either aren't racist asshats or are willing to change.


Oh yeah, I REALLY wanna save Chocolat after she made me waste my time going through Magnis' ranch to save her sorry ass because I killed her grandma. :ron: Orochi? Jeez, he has barely any purpose, you can forget him. Kate is annoying, Altessa is too busy blaming himself for things, WHY WOULD I WANT TO HELP SELES AT ALL and the King Of Tethe'alla is kind of pointless. (He's almost like the Kimlascan King in Abyss - there but pointless, I am a Peony fan) Also, Dirk? Meh. I blame him for making me having to listen to those Dwarven Vow things.

Quote:
XIII is okay with letting you think everyone but the main party is an idiot. (and even then...)


So do most other games.

Quote:
What about the people administering the Purge? How do they even benefit from it? The evulz?


I recall saying things like people of the government are excepted from the Purge. What do they get from it? Continued hatred of Pulse and its l'Cie. And I believe their hatred and manipulation about Pulse was similar to how people were racist years ago - Don't touch me, it's dirty! Like if a leper touches you, your limbs will fall off, too. Or getting touched by a black person makes you black and "unclean". They think Pulse is like an infect. Yeah the GOVERNMENT knows that Pulse l'Cie isn't a "disease" that can be contracted - but the government is run by Fal'Cie who want people to be stupid about Pulse and fear it for no good reason.

Sure they could lock a Pulse l'Cie into a place... but then there's the issue, what if the l'Cie is super strong and can break out? They can use magic, after all! Freeze the bars and break them or melt the walls and escape. Not to mention that, even when time runs out, you now have a mindless killing machine Cie'th on your hands which ARE strong.

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Quote:
Quote:
XIII is okay with letting you think everyone but the main party is an idiot. (and even then...)
So do most other games.

Then don't claim that humans are special beings.
Quote:
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What about the people administering the Purge? How do they even benefit from it? The evulz?


I recall saying things like people of the government are excepted from the Purge. What do they get from it? Continued hatred of Pulse and its l'Cie. And I believe their hatred and manipulation about Pulse was similar to how people were racist years ago - Don't touch me, it's dirty! Like if a leper touches you, your limbs will fall off, too. Or getting touched by a black person makes you black and "unclean". They think Pulse is like an infect. Yeah the GOVERNMENT knows that Pulse l'Cie isn't a "disease" that can be contracted - but the government is run by Fal'Cie who want people to be stupid about Pulse and fear it for no good reason.

You don't control people with the fear of some threat itself. You control people by making them fear that threat, but also making yourself look capable of successfully dealing with it. If the government could have contained the l'Cie while also saving the thousands of residents there, Barthy's approval rate would stay locked above 99%. Simply killing all of them will just create more chaos, make the people harder to control. Like, a man who's wife and kids are going to die when they were on vacation and leaving the next day before the quarantine happened.
Quote:
Sure they could lock a Pulse l'Cie into a place... but then there's the issue, what if the l'Cie is super strong and can break out? They can use magic, after all! Freeze the bars and break them or melt the walls and escape. Not to mention that, even when time runs out, you now have a mindless killing machine Cie'th on your hands which ARE strong.

Considering how much casts of magic are needed to take out the Dreadnought in the Vile Peaks, a standard prison cell + restraints could easily contain a l'Cie. And Cieths aren't that powerful unless the l'Cie gained months worth of experience. The Cieths fought at the beginning of the game could easily be taken out by ordinary humans, even a fourteen-year-old with a boomerang.
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Then don't claim that humans are special beings.


I'm not saying humans are special. :eh?:

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Barthy's approval rate would stay locked above 99%.


Because his approval rate is totally important to him.

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CatMuto wrote:
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Then don't claim that humans are special beings.


I'm not saying humans are special. :eh?:

The game is.

Quote:
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Barthy's approval rate would stay locked above 99%.


Because his approval rate is totally important to him.

It is when he wants to control the people.
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The game is.


Games tend to do that. Dunno why, I don't think humans are saints nor do I think we're abominations that should cease to exist. But I do think we should not be held onto pedestals like we're the best option to be - I mean, even if I look at things like Shin Megami Tensei with its Law, Chaos and Neutral option, Neutral is generally the human-focused route and I always feel like most of the games just opt for the "Eh, we'll keep a balance but not necessarily solve anything" idea. More like they push problems further away to deal with later.

Quote:
It is when he wants to control the people.


He's a freaking Fal'Cie, he doesn't need their approval to control them. He can just be like a huge thumb and squash them if they go against him.
You may say that them gaining knowledge leads to better approval and better control over them, I say it'd be the opposite: if the people of Cocoon realized - in your scenario of just imprisoning a l'Cie - that a Pulse l'Cie is not as scary and death-bringing as they were made to believe, they would begin to wonder why they were afraid of anything Pulse related before and become cocky, making it more difficult for them to be controlled.

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CatMuto wrote:
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The game is.


Games tend to do that.

Should I just start listing off narrative-heavy games that don't claim humans are special beings?
Quote:
He's a freaking Fal'Cie, he doesn't need their approval to control them. He can just be like a huge thumb and squash them if they go against him.

I bet he could even open Etro's gate in the process.
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You may say that them gaining knowledge leads to better approval and better control over them, I say it'd be the opposite: if the people of Cocoon realized - in your scenario of just imprisoning a l'Cie - that a Pulse l'Cie is not as scary and death-bringing as they were made to believe, they would begin to wonder why they were afraid of anything Pulse related before and become cocky, making it more difficult for them to be controlled.

On the other hand, if the officials are shown to be incapable of properly dealing with the threat, the people would start rising up, declaring that they shouldn't rely on people who can't do anything right until a coup d'état eventually happens. And even if they did succeed with the Purge, that still means that the officials restrained a l'Cie with a robe-cuff as they sat patiently on a train until they reached Gran Pulse.
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that still means that the officials restrained a l'Cie with a robe-cuff as they sat patiently on a train until they reached Gran Pulse.


Granted there WAS a Pulse l'Cie on that train and WAS patiently waiting to be carted to Pulse... though that's cause Vanilla was suicidal and wanted to go to Pulse, so...

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Spoiler: Final Fantasy XV's All-Male Party Genderswitched
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Take a short look at them in turn and tell me who they remind you of. For me, from left to right, it's: Lightning in blonde, Jihl Nabaat with her hair tied back, Lucina from Fire Emblem and a White Chick version of Barret. Or maybe a dark-haired, somewhat-shaven Seifer/Zell.

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CatMuto wrote:
And if videogames wanted me to give a crap about the supposed love interests I'm supposed to save, they'd spend a good hour or two just letting me get to know the person AS a person and not the role they fulfill. :ron:

Suikoden V tried something along these lines (although it was with the Prince's family rather than a love interest) and people bitched about how it took too long to get to "the real game".

You're never going to please everybody.
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
And if videogames wanted me to give a crap about the supposed love interests I'm supposed to save, they'd spend a good hour or two just letting me get to know the person AS a person and not the role they fulfill. :ron:

Suikoden V tried something along these lines (although it was with the Prince's family rather than a love interest) and people bitched about how it took too long to get to "the real game".

You're never going to please everybody.


...I was gonna say, isn't that the one with the sepia toned pictures as your "story", but then I realized I was confusing Suikoden with Soul Calibur. It doesn't necessarily have to be an hour long, but at least make me spend enough time with them (during gameplay?) that I see them as more than just a cardboard cutout that I'm supposed to care about.

The reason why I like Kratos so much, despite him betraying me in Symphonia, is that he was part of my party for the first third of the game and there were chances to see scenes with him to expand on his character. This technically goes for every other party member, but I am picking Kratos cause he's among the early ones.

It's a case of Show, don't Tell.

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Text from FF XIII's blogger answered someone's question about the VII remake.

I like reading that. Particularly the parts where Crisis Core references should be added (NOT GENESIS, PLEASE!!*) and maybe even seeing Zack's death as a mandatory scene, rather than something you gotta look for. Hey, I had to play Crisis Core with his death as mandatory! And I love-hated it! And yes. We NEED Cloud-in-tub-with-muscle-men. And the dialogue. Please, retain it in that scene. It's the only time I actively, purposefully laughed where I should have laughed in the game. (Laughing at Aerith's death is apparently NOT the reaction they wanted...)

* I have nothing against Gackt, he's hot and I love his voice and songs, but we do not need Genesis in VII

I really, really hope they add Dual Audio into the game. If I play the game, I mean, I guess I COULD stand, um... Steve Burton (?) as Cloud and... Chirs Newburn (?) as Sephiroth, if they pick them. And I have nothing against Rick Gomez as Zack. He did a good job with him in Crisis Core, ditto Andrew Brown for Aerith. Don't think I could stand Rachel Leigh Cook as Tifa again... couldn't stand her in Dissidia 012... But NOBODY can hold a candle to Suzumura Kenichi and Sakamoto Maaya as Zack and Aerith, respectively. They made their voices. AND they are married! Guys, Zack and Aerith already get Together In Death, they're married in real life. Make it freaking canon.

Also, my personal headcanon is that Zack was gonna propose to Aerith post-Niblheim but then Niblheim happened...

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Remember that cliffhanger over whether or not Serah would survive the merging of the universes?

Uh, huh? Was this ever a cliffhanger? Um, Serah died before Chaos swept over the world and fused it with Valhalla. There was never a question of her surviving. Unless they are referring to her dying cause of Etro Eyes? In which case, Noel pretty much says, "Yeah, you'll die" and Serah goes, "Eh, we still gotta do this and I'm fine with that". How was Serah potentially surviving this ever a cliffhanger? Okay, the ending does show her living for a bit, before all the time gates disappear, but she still ultimately dies. It was not a cliffhanger - that was more a delayed reaction.

How did Lightning get into the other universe? She sat in a chair and waited.

Lightning didn't get into another 'universe'. Chaos took over the world and turned Pulse into Valhalla. Basically, the story is a Stable Time Loop - Light is in Valhalla, which is Pulse, after Chaos sweeps over it; she sends Noel on a journey with Serah, but their actions cause Chaos to sweep over Pulse, turning it into Valhalla. Heck, just look at the environment of Valhalla: that thing that is above Noel, when he falls from the sky? That's the New Cocoon/Bhunivelze that Hope created.

I may not like XIII-2, but it did not leave me asking anything. Or wonder how the world looks different in Lightning Returns - 500 years have passed. Sure, humans are unchanging, but the world isn't and chaos is pretty frequent there, so the environment changing makes sense.

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CatMuto wrote:
Remember that cliffhanger over whether or not Serah would survive the merging of the universes?

Uh, huh? Was this ever a cliffhanger? Um, Serah died before Chaos swept over the world and fused it with Valhalla. There was never a question of her surviving. Unless they are referring to her dying cause of Etro Eyes? In which case, Noel pretty much says, "Yeah, you'll die" and Serah goes, "Eh, we still gotta do this and I'm fine with that". How was Serah potentially surviving this ever a cliffhanger? Okay, the ending does show her living for a bit, before all the time gates disappear, but she still ultimately dies. It was not a cliffhanger - that was more a delayed reaction.

How did Lightning get into the other universe? She sat in a chair and waited.

Lightning didn't get into another 'universe'. Chaos took over the world and turned Pulse into Valhalla. Basically, the story is a Stable Time Loop - Light is in Valhalla, which is Pulse, after Chaos sweeps over it; she sends Noel on a journey with Serah, but their actions cause Chaos to sweep over Pulse, turning it into Valhalla. Heck, just look at the environment of Valhalla: that thing that is above Noel, when he falls from the sky? That's the New Cocoon/Bhunivelze that Hope created.

I may not like XIII-2, but it did not leave me asking anything. Or wonder how the world looks different in Lightning Returns - 500 years have passed. Sure, humans are unchanging, but the world isn't and chaos is pretty frequent there, so the environment changing makes sense.

C-A


Who....who are you arguing with?
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Not arguing, commenting. It was someone's Dethroning Moment Of Suck in XIII-2 for them. (A DMoS is when something in the game happens that feels so stupid, badly done or out of character, that it is the moment in the game that you hate. The rest of the game may be good, but this moment sticks out like a sore thumb)

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CatMuto wrote:
Not arguing, commenting. It was someone's Dethroning Moment Of Suck in XIII-2 for them. (A DMoS is when something in the game happens that feels so stupid, badly done or out of character, that it is the moment in the game that you hate. The rest of the game may be good, but this moment sticks out like a sore thumb)

C-A


Something like that sounds like it must be in the YMMV category. Why not just take your comments there and edit them under as a counterpoint?
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I've felt worse.

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Pierre wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Not arguing, commenting. It was someone's Dethroning Moment Of Suck in XIII-2 for them. (A DMoS is when something in the game happens that feels so stupid, badly done or out of character, that it is the moment in the game that you hate. The rest of the game may be good, but this moment sticks out like a sore thumb)

C-A


Something like that sounds like it must be in the YMMV category. Why not just take your comments there and edit them under as a counterpoint?

The DMoS pages have a rule against conversation aside from the entry itself. Speaking of which,
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It's the big, epic scene against the Giant of Babel, that shows that every single one of those sacrifices was reverted.

Only Palom and Porom were revealed to be alive during the Giant of Babel scene. Cid's already been shown working on the Falcon, and Yang's been resting in Sylph cave.
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sumguy28 wrote:
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It's the big, epic scene against the Giant of Babel, that shows that every single one of those sacrifices was reverted.

Only Palom and Porom were revealed to be alive during the Giant of Babel scene. Cid's already been shown working on the Falcon, and Yang's been resting in Sylph cave.


Don't forget that Eddie also succumbed to injuries when helping me in the Silver Cave. I forget if talking to him before or after that scene involved him talking in bed and then the "OMG SAD!" music playing. Either way, implied that he croaked... again, technically. But IV in general overdid sacrifices and then "Eh, don't worry. They're fine." Yeah, thanks. Hey, wanna do that 'joke' with Aerith's death, too, since sacrifices are something to laugh at?

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CatMuto wrote:
Don't forget that Eddie also succumbed to injuries when helping me in the Silver Cave. I forget if talking to him before or after that scene involved him talking in bed and then the "OMG SAD!" music playing. Either way, implied that he croaked... again, technically. But IV in general overdid sacrifices and then "Eh, don't worry. They're fine." Yeah, thanks. Hey, wanna do that 'joke' with Aerith's death, too, since sacrifices are something to laugh at?

Tellah telling Edward to rest up implies that he croaked?
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sumguy28 wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Don't forget that Eddie also succumbed to injuries when helping me in the Silver Cave. I forget if talking to him before or after that scene involved him talking in bed and then the "OMG SAD!" music playing. Either way, implied that he croaked... again, technically. But IV in general overdid sacrifices and then "Eh, don't worry. They're fine." Yeah, thanks. Hey, wanna do that 'joke' with Aerith's death, too, since sacrifices are something to laugh at?

Tellah telling Edward to rest up implies that he croaked?


No, I think when they find him after the shipwreck and talk to him, the music changes to sad, like he died. Then they notice he falls asleep. It's just one more scene of them making fun of sacrifices. I get it, Squaresoft tended to 'kill' off characters in II and IV to make room for new characters, but some of their 'sacrifices' were really dumb. Like Yang, a monk, knowing how to handle machinery? Or Cid, the moron extraordinaire, jumping off an airship with a bomb in hand...

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Is there an RPG that came out in 1991 or prior that handled sacrifices better in your opinion?
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CatMuto wrote:
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Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)


I feel the same
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dullahan1 wrote:
Is there an RPG that came out in 1991 or prior that handled sacrifices better in your opinion?


Off the top of my head, can't think of one. But did IV really need to go so overboard with sacrificing themselves?

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CatMuto wrote:
dullahan1 wrote:
Is there an RPG that came out in 1991 or prior that handled sacrifices better in your opinion?


Off the top of my head, can't think of one. But did IV really need to go so overboard with sacrificing themselves?

C-A


So far as I know there wasn't a uniform "standard" for sacrificing in media at the time so its hard to say they went "overboard".

I mean each sacrifice is spaced out and suits the situation well enough.
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Eh, I have to side with Cat on this one.

Spoiler:
Heroic sacrifices are all well and good, but when virtually EVERY non-permanent party member tries to pull it, it sort of loses any sort of emotional impact, especially when in all but one case, the characters end up perfectly fine afterwards. Cid's particularly bugged me since A: it was totally ridiculous that he survived jumping out of the airship while clutching an incredibly powerful bomb (also why the hell wouldn't he just throw it?), and B: Yang had just played the sacrifice card not even two minutes prior.

When Rydia bitched Edge out for trying to go fight Rubicante alone because she was sick of watching idiots hurrying off to die, I assume it was meant to be a poignant scene, but it felt more like lampshade hanging than anything by that point.

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Eh guess its to each their own. Didn't really ruin it much for me (other than the fact I was sad I never got to keep Yang in the party) but I've never been a huge fan of FFIV anyway.
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FF IV in general is... okay. It's not a great game (not even for the time it was originally released) but it was okay. Though the scene of Cecil suddenly going 'misogynistic' and telling the ladies to stay behind is a little weird. I know he's doing it because he isn't sure they'll make it and wants to keep them safe, but... dude, Lydia could summon freaking BAHAMUT. She had awesome spells and Rosa wasn't weak, either. She had Holy.

Though now I started an LP of FF V Advance. Only two small gripes for me right now. The music messes up at times and a no encounter code I have has this little side-effect of causing NPCs to turn invisible, if I open a menu... eh, as long as it doesn't cause the game to break...

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Well here it is after so long...FF7
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Pierre wrote:


My minor gripe is how they pronounce Cloud... guess I am just too used to the Japanese pronunciation. (Though what's with Biggs' voice?)

Though, what's with Cloud's face? It looks so... vastly different. Maybe because his nose is much thinner now? :eh?:

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