Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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I dislike the whole Cecil/Rosa/Kain thing too. Like holy shit, it is so cliché. I swear this is the kind of plot device that somebody could use in a Brazilian soap opera. The "other guy", who is best friends with Mr. Good Guy is jealous because he can't win the heart of Mr. Good Guy's sweet girlfriend. This causes the "other guy" to lose the light in his heart and "join" the dark side of the force, all in the name of his love for the sweet girlfriend. lol. I could see this coming from miles away. So predictable. And it is not even well explored; like, in the end Kain simply says "I'm sorry", and everybody is suddenly okay. His feelings are not even explained in depth.
Like @CatMuto said, the romance is kind of... just there, and exists simply "because". No background, no development etc. Their interactions are boring. "Tee-hee, you are my sweet darling, we are two peaceful, virtuous people who are here to bring justice into the world. The paladin of lightness and the healer damsel in the white dress. White, white, white, we are sooo white, we are soo gooood, my loooove~"
I agree that Rosa is pretty bland, and one of the most forgettable characters in the whole FF franchise. Actually, I don't care much for any FFIV character, with the exception of Palom and Porom (Palom!!!! Porom!!!! For a second there, I almost thought I would really lose you guys), and Rydia, which is the first female character from the FF series to show something that can be seen as a remarkable personality. Cecil is just... eh, kind of whatever to me, but I like some themes that surround his character. Questioning corrupt authorities, having to redeem himself for his past deeds etc. I like all of that. FFIV is far from being my favourite FF game, but I respect it because I think it was a huge step towards improving the series in general, and much better than the previous titles.
When it comes to couples, it is very difficult for me to find one couple I really, really like, but when I find it, I am a hardcore shipper. In FF, the only couple I absolutely like is Locke/Ceres; great dynamics and chemistry there. I also kind of like Zack/Aerith and Edge/Rydia, though not as much.
EDIT: I am not exactly a Lightning/Hope shipper, but I like to play with the idea of he pairing sometimes. From my POV, the age gap is a bad reason to reject the pairing, and it annoys me how the argument is used all the time. Six years of difference is definitely a problem when one partner is in their teenage years (Hope being 14 and Lightning 20; yeah, it is a problem), but when the younger part gets into adulthood, it is not a problem anymore. In fact, the age gap just keeps getting less significant. A relationship between a 27-year-old and a 33-year-old has a 6 year gap, but it is totally acceptable. Some moment after the 20s, a 6 year gap should not be a problem in any relationship. Plus, I see Hope as someone who is more emotionally experienced than the average person of his age, so I don't think his maturity would be a problem in the relationship.
Last edited by Thelema on Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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They hadn't exactly "wrote" many characters like that before. FF1 and FF3 had silent party members the whole way through and from what I've heard FF2 didn't give its characters much better writing either.
I'm not saying it gets a free pass for poor characterisation...but it is a bit like laughing at a caveman for not being as smart as you.
Besides I think they've tried to flesh out the FF4 cast fairly well in other products. I found Cecil pretty entertaining in Dissidia and they had The After Years to add extra layers of challenge to these characters.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Like I said, FFIV is my favorite Final Fantasy to date. I'd blame nostalgia, but I didn't get into Final Fantasy until about 2005 or so and first played this game ten years ago. Instantly loved it. Rydia is easily my favorite female character in the series. And I still enjoy the combat system and battle styles in general. I love the way your party is constantly swapped out so you're forced to adapt to different fighting styles. That I really enjoy and it seems to be something that Final Fantasy didn't even bother trying with again until 9.
But I gotta honestly say, I'm not a fan of the love triangle aspect in FFIV. It's the weakest part of the game for me and I feel a lot has to do with Rosa. Like I said, I'm fine with Kain and Cecil being rivals, but the game gives them other reasons to do so other than just Rosa. The stuff revolving around her are the more forgettable parts of the game for me.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Quote:
they had The After Years to add extra layers of challenge to these characters.
I gave up on the After Years about an hour in. Mostly due to being busy and not touching it for months and eventually losing interest, but I later heard that most of the game recycles more assets than Tales of Xillia 2.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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sumguy28 wrote:
Also to say "hey this game has a romantic couple. That's cool, right?" Granted I just never cared for romance in fiction. Or romance in general.
Out of the FF games I've played, the romances tend to waver a lot.
IV: CecilxRosa? Utterly boring; it felt more like the supposed Love Triangle between Cecil-Rosa-Kain was more Kain having a crush on Cecil, rather than Rosa.
V: ...didn't really have romance in it, did it? Can't recall any that was overtly hinting at Bartz with any of the girls, specifically.
VI: I rather like and believe CelesxLocke. LockexRachel is sad and all, but it does add the flavor between him and Celes, with the whole 'moving on' thing.
VII: ...Tifa was only created to add 'emotional depth' with a Love Triangle so unbelieveable, it makes TWILIGHT's Love Triangle seem believeable! I never believed CloudxAerith; she's still too set on Zack and Cloud didn't come across as if he cared a smidgeon for her. On the other hand, Tifa struck me as having an unrequited crush, nothing more. Cloud is too obsessed with Sephiroth.
VIII: Rinoa is dumb. Outside of that, I still don't believe their romance.
X: Yuna and Tidus at least have scenes together that indicate them trying to get to know each other. Still weird that they added 'romance values' with Rikku and Lulu...
XIII: Eh, yeah, I've said it before. SnowxSerah sounds like a total whirlwind romance to me, which I feel tend to not work out in the long run.
XIII-2: NoelxYule? Uh, yeah, only time we ever see HIS Yule is in his DREAMWORLD. Biased much. In similar fashion, CaiusxYules? Dumb. (No, I do not believe that the AF 700 Yule actually loved Noel. I don't care what LR says.)
And while it isn't official, from what I know, I feel there is some hint of LightxHope in LR; but it's just as easy to see that as nothing but a deep bond of trust, which works fine, too. But they do have scenes, they do discuss things and, well, a scene between Hope and Lightning that occurs just before the last day starts... it's a wonderful scene, very emotional.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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sumguy28 wrote:
Quote:
they had The After Years to add extra layers of challenge to these characters.
I gave up on the After Years about an hour in. Mostly due to being busy and not touching it for months and eventually losing interest, but I later heard that most of the game recycles more assets than Tales of Xillia 2.
The After Years. It's pretty much FF4 with extra characters, but done a whole lot more poorly. The only decent thing about it is what they did with Kain and I did like Yang's daughter. That's really about it. Considering the plot, you'd think I'd love it because more Rydia for me is supposed to be a good thing. Never knew how wrong I was.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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sumguy28 wrote:
Quote:
they had The After Years to add extra layers of challenge to these characters.
I gave up on the After Years about an hour in. Mostly due to being busy and not touching it for months and eventually losing interest, but I later heard that most of the game recycles more assets than Tales of Xillia 2.
The After Years. It's pretty much FF4 with extra characters, but done a whole lot more poorly. The only decent thing about it is what they did with Kain and I did like Yang's daughter. That's really about it. Considering the plot, you'd think I'd love it because more Rydia for me is supposed to be a good thing. Never knew how wrong I was.
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CatMuto wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Man...that looks dull...this actually makes me worried for KH3 (since that team worked on the battle system)
I feel the same
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
Zhang Juanli (Rabbit)
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dullahan1 wrote:
sumguy28 wrote:
Quote:
they had The After Years to add extra layers of challenge to these characters.
I gave up on the After Years about an hour in. Mostly due to being busy and not touching it for months and eventually losing interest, but I later heard that most of the game recycles more assets than Tales of Xillia 2.
The After Years. It's pretty much FF4 with extra characters, but done a whole lot more poorly. The only decent thing about it is what they did with Kain and I did like Yang's daughter. That's really about it. Considering the plot, you'd think I'd love it because more Rydia for me is supposed to be a good thing. Never knew how wrong I was.
Not played it but to add on the things I like: I really like Golbez' new design.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
Zhang Juanli (Rabbit)
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So Final Fantasy has it's own card game now. Being a bit of a fan of those I went out and bought one of the structured decks for it...the FFX one. As I'd hoped it has Wakka (and he's pretty baller too).
BUT
Since then I've learned one guy (who owns a games shop) has bought up all his stores' own copies of the booster packs for his own personal use.
In a similar move, my friend cleared out a store of it's 11 booster packs.
The other store I know of was then cleared out by two guys who bought all their BOXES of boosters.
With this damn monopoly going on it'll just kill the game for me at the start.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Pierre wrote:
Urgh
So Final Fantasy has it's own card game now. Being a bit of a fan of those I went out and bought one of the structured decks for it...the FFX one. As I'd hoped it has Wakka (and he's pretty baller too).
BUT
Since then I've learned one guy (who owns a games shop) has bought up all his stores' own copies of the booster packs for his own personal use.
In a similar move, my friend cleared out a store of it's 11 booster packs.
The other store I know of was then cleared out by two guys who bought all their BOXES of boosters.
With this damn monopoly going on it'll just kill the game for me at the start.
So Final Fantasy has it's own card game now. Being a bit of a fan of those I went out and bought one of the structured decks for it...the FFX one. As I'd hoped it has Wakka (and he's pretty baller too).
BUT
Since then I've learned one guy (who owns a games shop) has bought up all his stores' own copies of the booster packs for his own personal use.
In a similar move, my friend cleared out a store of it's 11 booster packs.
The other store I know of was then cleared out by two guys who bought all their BOXES of boosters.
With this damn monopoly going on it'll just kill the game for me at the start.
eBay
Normally I highly encourage buying from local game stores but if the store owner is going to pull a dick move like that, screw him
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
Zhang Juanli (Rabbit)
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Urgh
So Final Fantasy has it's own card game now. Being a bit of a fan of those I went out and bought one of the structured decks for it...the FFX one. As I'd hoped it has Wakka (and he's pretty baller too).
BUT
Since then I've learned one guy (who owns a games shop) has bought up all his stores' own copies of the booster packs for his own personal use.
In a similar move, my friend cleared out a store of it's 11 booster packs.
The other store I know of was then cleared out by two guys who bought all their BOXES of boosters.
With this damn monopoly going on it'll just kill the game for me at the start.
So Final Fantasy has it's own card game now. Being a bit of a fan of those I went out and bought one of the structured decks for it...the FFX one. As I'd hoped it has Wakka (and he's pretty baller too).
BUT
Since then I've learned one guy (who owns a games shop) has bought up all his stores' own copies of the booster packs for his own personal use.
In a similar move, my friend cleared out a store of it's 11 booster packs.
The other store I know of was then cleared out by two guys who bought all their BOXES of boosters.
With this damn monopoly going on it'll just kill the game for me at the start.
eBay
Normally I highly encourage buying from local game stores but if the store owner is going to pull a dick move like that, screw him
I'll have a look when I get home but I dunno. I feel silly buying boosters online since nornally they are something I buy on a whim. Anything else on eBay will be individually sold cards and they are at a premium that I'm not willing to spend for a game I've just picked up and have no faith in yet.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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AMA
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Thelema wrote:
I think Cloud and Terra are the only somewhat relatable Final Fantasy protagonists. All the others feel too naive, too badass or too bland.
AMA
AMA
Tina, I can understand. Sort of... not everybody learns that they are a hybrid of two different species, after being held under someone's control and doing terrible things, every day. But her search of wondering what love actually is; yes, I can see that being relateable. Cloud...? Mh... I don't really see it with him... how do you mean?
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CatMuto wrote:
Thelema wrote:
I think Cloud and Terra are the only somewhat relatable Final Fantasy protagonists. All the others feel too naive, too badass or too bland.
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AMA
Tina, I can understand. Sort of... not everybody learns that they are a hybrid of two different species, after being held under someone's control and doing terrible things, every day. But her search of wondering what love actually is; yes, I can see that being relateable. Cloud...? Mh... I don't really see it with him... how do you mean?
I see both Cloud and Terra as very vulnerable, self-absorbed and, at least in the beginning of their journeys, unlike typical heroes. I think Cloud, in particular, has a lot of identity issues and Final Fantasy VII is the story of him trying to claim his identity and significance back. I also find that he has a very fragile sense of self, and during a lot of times tries to emulate the traits of people he looked up to, like Sephiroth and Zack, instead of being his own person.
Ofc, this is all very subjective and there will be people who find characters like Zidane, Tidus or Cecil more relatable.
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
Zhang Juanli (Rabbit)
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Thelema wrote:
CatMuto wrote:
Thelema wrote:
I think Cloud and Terra are the only somewhat relatable Final Fantasy protagonists. All the others feel too naive, too badass or too bland.
AMA
AMA
Tina, I can understand. Sort of... not everybody learns that they are a hybrid of two different species, after being held under someone's control and doing terrible things, every day. But her search of wondering what love actually is; yes, I can see that being relateable. Cloud...? Mh... I don't really see it with him... how do you mean?
I see both Cloud and Terra as very vulnerable, self-absorbed and, at least in the beginning of their journeys, unlike typical heroes. I think Cloud, in particular, has a lot of identity issues and Final Fantasy VII is the story of him trying to claim his identity and significance back. I also find that he has a very fragile sense of self, and during a lot of times tries to emulate the traits of people he looked up to, like Sephiroth and Zack, instead of being his own person.
Ofc, this is all very subjective and there will be people who find characters like Zidane, Tidus or Cecil more relatable.
Well yeah, "relatable" is a deeply personal characteristic that anyone can get. I think what I'd prefer is to say characters that are more "human" in that they have their weaknesses too and allow themselves to feel things. I'd say Cloud isn't really that because before he undergoes character growth he's an outright parody of emotionless mercenary.
I'd also say Zidane Tidus and Cecil are all better at that than Cloud. 'Stoic' uncaring action heroes are best left in the movies.
For relatable in FF...my money is on Zack. He's the right balance of serious and goofy to me.
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Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Quote:
For relatable in FF...my money is on Zack. He's the right balance of serious and goofy to me.
People, get amazed because I agree with Pierre! Again!
Cloud is definitely not very relateable for most of VII, in my opinion. He is absolutely emotionless and "Whatever"-attitude in the beginning; basically, Proto-Squall. The second arc of the game he spends unconscious and off-screen, so I don't really agree with him being relateable there... but I almost feel like he's... too exaggerated when he returns. Too busy wallowing in his misery and questioning things, instead of actively trying to find something to call his own.
A bit like Godot, honestly.
And Zack is just amazing. He's cool, but he's also funny - I actually prefer his Japanese line before fighting enemies. Yeah, it's the standard greeting for customers upon entering a restaurant, but you could have translated it as "Come get served"... which still sounds kinda cool. He's not moody and, after that slump he went into past-Modeoheim, he learned from it and remained upbeat. He calmed down over the course of Crisis Core, without it seeming like a sudden personality change. He just matured from a teen to a young man.
*proceeds to swoon over Zack for another 10 minutes* Why couldn't we have HIM as a main game's protagonist, but got Cloud!?
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I have nothing against Zack, but I think he was made to be a very typical upbeat, idealistic and cheerful hero. Which is likeable, but... Idk, I can understand why people want characters who are outgoing and light hearted, but I find them limiting in some contexts.
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CatMuto wrote:
Why couldn't we have HIM as a main game's protagonist, but got Cloud!?
Here’s the thing; if we had Zack as FFVII’s protagonist, it could be a good game, but I somehow doubt it would be impactful as FFVII was. As I said, Zack is a very typical protagonist. Upbeat, optimistic, idealistic etc. He is almost too perfect; the small town guy becoming the hero of his dreams and getting the amazing girl, etc. Not a bad character, but not a character that leaves room for an extreme transformation. And ofc, I think he was purposedly made to be this way.
All in all, I think Cloud was the protagonist because he was the damaged one, and the one who failed to fulfill his dreams. He didn’t beat Sephiroth because he was a hero and wanted to be one, but because after an unfortunate series of events, he had to.
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Thelema wrote:
@Pierre I don’t share the same interpretation about Cloud at all. I don’t see him as stoic. I think he is inexpressive, but more because he is numbed down and self-absorbed. I never saw him as an emotionless character.
I have nothing against Zack, but I think he was made to be a very typical upbeat, idealistic and cheerful hero. Which is likeable, but... Idk, I can understand why people want characters who are outgoing and light hearted, but I find them limiting in some contexts.
I have nothing against Zack, but I think he was made to be a very typical upbeat, idealistic and cheerful hero. Which is likeable, but... Idk, I can understand why people want characters who are outgoing and light hearted, but I find them limiting in some contexts.
The character of Zack serves the story he is in, much like the character of Cloud serves the story he is in (I don't agree with Cat about VII being improved by a character swap).
Crisis Core is a story about a bright eyed idealist watching his heroes crumble around him. It would be no fun to watch a cynical character tut and eye-roll as all their assumptions about the world are confirmed. By having Zack be somewhat positive (though not Bartz-ditsy) it makes for a greater story and character development. It elicits an emotional reaction for him to see his heroes twisted and beaten and eventually to face them.
Likewise for Cloud, going by uncaring, trying to be the 'greatest' SOLDIER he can imagine and ending up a dry, mission-focused outright parody of a mercenary fits his ideals and his past but it is not a fully fledged human. It takes the efforts of the rest of the cast and a great deal of soul-searching for Cloud to really come out of his shell.
I actually really like third-act Cloud. I felt it showed character development into someone who was actually human. It's partially why I'm so disappointed in his representations in Advent Children, Dissidia, etc etc, because they revert to his act one parody of being a mercenary.
But the characters suit the story they are in.
Though perhaps our definitions are different: For me Stoic and Inexpressive go hand in hand but you seem to be able to differentiate them.
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To be more clear, I don’t like to use the word “stoic” in this case because to me it implies that someone doesn’t experience inner turmoil at all. This isn’t Cloud’s case; his “badass mercenary” façade is just a defense mechanism used to avoid dealing with emotions that are too hard to face. Zack is a good character in his own right, but I think what I have been trying to say all along is, as much as he is a likeable role model, his character doesn’t represent human flaws and struggles the same way Cloud character does. And part of what makes me enjoy a story is the depth of experience and development a character goes through (I don’t think it would have been the same for me if Zack were the protagonist of FFVII).
I don’t like Cloud in Ac, in KH II and in many Square Enix media either. I feel like after Tetsuya Nomura took over, they completely missed the point of his character and tried to create a generic angsty guy.
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Thelema wrote:
All in all, I think Cloud was the protagonist because he was the damaged one, and the one who failed to fulfill his dreams. He didn’t beat Sephiroth because he was a hero and wanted to be one, but because after an unfortunate series of events, he had to.
He wasn't damaged at the beginning of VII. He was a self-forced-amnesiac. His entire 'damaged, numbed emotion' aspect was what he convinced himself was the way a 1st Class Soldier should act like. He doesn't remember the terrible stuff he went through. (And even his recollection of the Nibleheim event is basically a projection, mostly.) But the thing for me is... Cloud was very unlikeable in the beginning... then it takes him ages to finally become more likeable.
I don't like characters that take forever and a century to finally become likeable.
For a similar example, Magilou from Tales of Berseria. She's loud, upbeat, has no real drive to be around the protagonists except that it 'might be interesting' to see what Velvet does in her desire for revenge. Her main role in skits is to be the person that makes jokes... which fall flat a lot of the time. It also takes her quite some time to become a party member (she's the fifth out of a total of six; it can take up to 10 hours to get to the point where she joins, depending on how fast you are), so for some time, she is around for no reason and doesn't even pull her weight.
It's only until very, very, very late into the game - practically in the dungeon just before the final dungeon/final boss battle - that she tones down, shows a much more serious side of hers and you see that she is more than just "loud and obnoxious joker". I found it difficult to care at that point because she had spent so much time coming across as annoying to me.
An opposite example, Luke from Tales of the Abyss.
Just like Cloud, he's kind of a jerk for the first arcs. He's self-absorbed, egocentric, immature, hot-headed over nothing, spoiled-rotten and completely world-foreign. He knows nothing about how society or anything works outside of his home... except that it's established very early on that he has good reason for being that way. After he was rescued from a kidnapping event at the age of 10, he came home and was completely amnesiac - he couldn't remember anything, not even how to walk or talk; so all of that had to be relearned.
And he hasn't been allowed to leave his family's mansion since, so he's been stuck at home for 7 years. Of course he doesn't know how the world works. It makes sense! As he himself even said, he "had more important things to learn; like his parents' faces". Doesn't change that he's spoiled and immature, but it explains his personality.
At the end of the first arc, something happens that absolutely shatters his world-view and he, yes, falls into a coma. Unlike Cloud, though, it's a very short one and he does observe what some of the party does while he's not there. And immediately after awakening, the reality of what he has done hits him and he vows to change into a better person. He has no idea how, but he works at it; even with small things like saying thank you or sorry, which he previously refused to do.
That's what's so great about Luke. He changes pretty much from the beginning to the game until the end, without major 'out-times'.
On the other hand, as I mentioned... Cloud kind of disappears for part of the plot.
It's a bit like Snow from FF XIII, for me. He basically does nothing for half the plot.
He stays behind to try and get a crystallized Serah out of the ice... out of the picture.
He gets his Eidolon... then he's back out of the picture.
We get a quick scene with him, Fang and Cid on the Lindblum ship... back to the others, with Snow out of the picture.
It isn't until Chapter 7 (out of 13) that he even returns to the rest of the party.
Kind of difficult for me to care about a character, when they haven't been around for a lot of the time.
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
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Thelema wrote:
@Pierre By the time FFVII starts, Cloud had been through a lot. And I mean a lot. He failed to accomplish his childhood dream of becoming a member of SOLDIER; he lost his entire hometown to a fire; the (probably) only friend he ever had died protecting him, which only served to intensify his self-esteem issues.
To be more clear, I don’t like to use the word “stoic” in this case because to me it implies that someone doesn’t experience inner turmoil at all. This isn’t Cloud’s case; his “badass mercenary” façade is just a defense mechanism used to avoid dealing with emotions that are too hard to face. Zack is a good character in his own right, but I think what I have been trying to say all along is, as much as he is a likeable role model, his character doesn’t represent human flaws and struggles the same way Cloud character does. And part of what makes me enjoy a story is the depth of experience and development a character goes through (I don’t think it would have been the same for me if Zack were the protagonist of FFVII).
I don’t like Cloud in Ac, in KH II and in many Square Enix media either. I feel like after Tetsuya Nomura took over, they completely missed the point of his character and tried to create a generic angsty guy.
To be more clear, I don’t like to use the word “stoic” in this case because to me it implies that someone doesn’t experience inner turmoil at all. This isn’t Cloud’s case; his “badass mercenary” façade is just a defense mechanism used to avoid dealing with emotions that are too hard to face. Zack is a good character in his own right, but I think what I have been trying to say all along is, as much as he is a likeable role model, his character doesn’t represent human flaws and struggles the same way Cloud character does. And part of what makes me enjoy a story is the depth of experience and development a character goes through (I don’t think it would have been the same for me if Zack were the protagonist of FFVII).
I don’t like Cloud in Ac, in KH II and in many Square Enix media either. I feel like after Tetsuya Nomura took over, they completely missed the point of his character and tried to create a generic angsty guy.
Hmm for me stoicism is about maintaining emotional calm in the face of inner turmoil rather than being about an absence or unaffected by turmoil. Though I too will point out that Cloud had no idea about his past or his failures so it isn't a 'facade' for me. A 'facade' to me is something that we consciously put up to hide difficult feelings. As far as Cloud knew he was a legitimate SOLDIER, he wasn't 'pretending' or putting up a front to cope with turmoil. I'm pretty sure Cloud's first memories following the Nibelheim incident are arriving at Midgar with the buster sword.
It was just his childish ideal of what a "badass" SOLDIER should be, that's what he believed he was and that's how he acted. You only get his response to those memories and feelings of failure when he realises who he truly is after seeing the photograph of Zack and Tifa. I don't think he's meant to be likable or realistic because he's such a one-note parody at that point. Since the plot-twist about his actual role in the Nibelheim-incident is unknown to the audience they don't know that his behaviour is a result of trauma. Therefore Cloud's presentation as an uncaring ego-centric merc I feel is designed to be unlikable. It's hard to relate to him because few people are that one-note and uncaring.
That's what makes his character change desirable. We see the other members of the cast and we want to be able to connect with them in someway, but since our only vehicle to do that is Cloud (and for a short while Tifa and Cid) we don't really get that as Cloud DOESN'T really connect with people outside of Tifa and Aeris (even then I'd say that's more due to Tifa and Aeris doing most of the work). When Cloud does recover he does open himself up to others a little more and attempts to connect with people.
The one example that stands out in my mind is him trying to help Yuffie by telling her about when he had motion sickness. He's RELATING to her, he's finally reaching out and connecting with someone and admitting a vulnerability of his own with an actual goal to help someone without anything in return. This moment stands out so much because it occurs right after we regain control of Cloud I think. Finally Cloud (and the player by proxy) is allowed to connect with other people in a believable way.
It's why I think, no for the majority of it Cloud is not a relatable or likeable character and that is by design so that when he does undergo character growth it is a sweeter payoff.
Regarding Zack: He certainly has his flaws as well, his brash naivete is as much a flaw as it is a charming and endearing character trait and again that's designed to suit the story. His story in Crisis Core is all about how to break him. Cloud's story is about how to bring Cloud to life again. The cynic opens up his heart and the optimist opens up his eyes.
It might be difficult for you to relate to but I find Zack very relatable. There's many wide-eyed idealists or people who are quite naive about the realities of life and the world growing up. Many people will have to experience suffering and shocks that would affect their otherwise good mood. Coming out of school with the world ahead of you only to experience the realities of adult life? That's a legit battle that Zack experiences as his world crumbles around him. He finally joins SOLDIER only to find it's not what he expected and yet he struggles on the best he can. It seems a very relatable story.
Perhaps that's why Cloud is just so...alien to me. I never started from his "meh" stance on the world so his journey into being someone who does care about others is not something I can relate to.
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CatMuto wrote:
Quote:
For relatable in FF...my money is on Zack. He's the right balance of serious and goofy to me.
And Zack is just amazing. He's cool, but he's also funny - I actually prefer his Japanese line before fighting enemies. Yeah, it's the standard greeting for customers upon entering a restaurant, but you could have translated it as "Come get served"... which still sounds kinda cool. He's not moody and, after that slump he went into past-Modeoheim, he learned from it and remained upbeat. He calmed down over the course of Crisis Core, without it seeming like a sudden personality change. He just matured from a teen to a young man.
I agree with this as well. I've only actually finished five games in the franchise, but Zack was the most relatable by far.
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He wasn't damaged at the beginning of VII. He was a self-forced-amnesiac. His entire 'damaged, numbed emotion' aspect was what he convinced himself was the way a 1st Class Soldier should act like. He doesn't remember the terrible stuff he went through. (And even his recollection of the Nibleheim event is basically a projection, mostly.)
Having finished Crisis Core but not VII, what's the difference? Repressing memories doesn't actually help heal any emotional damage. It may prevent unwanted recollections, but any mental damage/changes in how they view the world remain.
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For a similar example, Magilou from Tales of Berseria. She's loud, upbeat, has no real drive to be around the protagonists except that it 'might be interesting' to see what Velvet does in her desire for revenge. Her main role in skits is to be the person that makes jokes... which fall flat a lot of the time. It also takes her quite some time to become a party member (she's the fifth out of a total of six; it can take up to 10 hours to get to the point where she joins, depending on how fast you are), so for some time, she is around for no reason and doesn't even pull her weight.
It's only until very, very, very late into the game - practically in the dungeon just before the final dungeon/final boss battle - that she tones down, shows a much more serious side of hers and you see that she is more than just "loud and obnoxious joker". I found it difficult to care at that point because she had spent so much time coming across as annoying to me.
It's only until very, very, very late into the game - practically in the dungeon just before the final dungeon/final boss battle - that she tones down, shows a much more serious side of hers and you see that she is more than just "loud and obnoxious joker". I found it difficult to care at that point because she had spent so much time coming across as annoying to me.
Counterpoint: Magilou is also the most cynical member of the party, is purposely trying to annoy everyone, and the cracks in her façade show as early as the four hour mark.
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CatMuto wrote:
He wasn't damaged at the beginning of VII. He was a self-forced-amnesiac.
And he had good reasons to be one.
Cloud certainly wasn’t likeable or emotionally expressive in the beginning of FFVII, but right in the beginning-to-middle of the game we can see signs that he does care about the safety of people. Dressing like a chick to save Tifa and making an active effort to save Aerith (despite not knowing her very well) are examples of this. Again, I’m not trying to say he was likeable; but when I played FFVII for the first time, I thought something like “this dude is cold, I wish he talked more” and not “this dude is one hell of a jerk, fuck him”. I don’t remember him doing things like being aggressive towards people, for example. Also, as much as he stays much time without discovering his true self, we get a lot of signs that something is wrong with Cloud early on - mostly the voice he listens to. This certainly wasn’t enough to make the audience like him, but probably enough to make a lot of people more interested in him and the outcome of the story. It was enough to me, at least.
If all things were carefully explained in the beginning of stories, or shortly after the beginning, we wouldn’t feel that “oh, so this is it, holy shit” unexpected element with them. Sometimes, characters who seem “meh” turn out to be very good to me, like in Cloud’s case.
Pierre wrote:
Perhaps that's why Cloud is just so...alien to me. I never started from his "meh" stance on the world so his journey into being someone who does care about others is not something I can relate to.
I think this is an oversimplification of his character arc tbh. I think Cloud’s main theme is his identity, and coming to terms with who he really is. He is characterized by both feeling ashamed for not getting into SOLDIER and feeling guilty for things out of his control. Most RPGs heroes are the “chosen ones”, or extremely talented. Cloud, on the other hand, wasn’t the chosen one or anything; he is just a dude with average powers who happened to be victim of a series of unfortunate events.
I like how his character is surrounded with themes like inadequacy and sorrow. Some people may not like it, but from the obvious impact it created, it is clear that FFVII did something which most previous (and later) FFs didn’t, like it or not. And I feel a lot of it has to do with how Cloud’s character was approached.
And emphasizing one of my points - there is only so much depth you can reach with your typical hero. They may have some minor flaws, they may have something bad about their past, they may have to learn one lesson or two, but you know that at the end of the day, they don’t have to work on self-improvement too much. When I read Harry Potter, I obviously don’t expect a massive change in character from Harry, or anything too self-revealing from his part. He is already “there”, he doesn’t need to accomplish; he is courageous, confident, loyal, has his heart in the right place. He doesn’t hide his past; he is an open book. I definitely enjoy reading it, but more because of the circumstances surrounding Harry, and not because I expect to see massive growth from him. This doesn’t make him any less likeable (he is), but just not extremely layered and complex. I feel the same about a character like Zack. I sympathize with him for what he has to go through - but he is more like a role-model, someone who a lot of people would feel inferior to and wish they could be like; someone who I didn’t expect to see changing too much during the story. Cloud, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of this. He may not be very likeable and pleasant, but his story arc offers a very intense transformation that could never happen if he were different. I won’t say his story is a “better” kind of story, but I personally find it more thought-provoking and challenging.
And btw I could say the same about Zack. As you said, this whole relatable thing is very personal, but I feel I never had the problem of being too naive or seeing the world through rose-colored glasses. I can sympathize with this and understand why it is a issue for some people, but it isn’t something I have experienced first hand at all.
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Pierre wrote:
Perhaps that's why Cloud is just so...alien to me. I never started from his "meh" stance on the world so his journey into being someone who does care about others is not something I can relate to.
Cloud's 'meh' status is one thing I dislike about characters in any media that retain that sort of status for a long time. Like Milla Maxwell from Tales of Xillia, who finds out revelations about herself in ways that should break her the way they broke Luke, but... she doesn't even mention that, once she rejoins the party.
If the character doesn't care about what's going on, why the heck should I care, as the player?
Quote:
Having finished Crisis Core but not VII, what's the difference? Repressing memories doesn't actually help heal any emotional damage. It may prevent unwanted recollections, but any mental damage/changes in how they view the world remain.
Well, Cloud has basically no real sign that he is even aware that he's faking anything. He is the pout-frowny-face, stoic, "I am so awesome, this mere terrorism in Avalanche is nothing but child's play to me.... and I totally don't care about you all, I'm just doing it for money" type of ex-Soldier-turned-Mercenary. Yeah, as Thelema says, he has moments where a voice in his head seems to talk to him or even question what he's talking about...
But, frankly, I think a large reason why VII was so difficult for me to get through was that the translation was pretty bad. Lightning Returns' English translation was mediocre, with 60% of each sentence not being what the characters originally said. They even altered a lot of things for the final part of the game, which took some of the emotion... impact... symbolic meaning, what have you, from it. But the translation was at least comprehensible.
VII's translation had dumb mistakes, incomplete sentences, not-translated lines pop up, and one part of a sentence repeating itself multiple times, without telling us the rest, so you have no clue what the original meaning of the sentence was supposed to be.
And, a someone who played the German translation, not only did I see English sentences, but also Japanese sentences around... and mistranslations of basic words. (Drain can refer to the drain in a sink, yes, but this Materia was supposed to be the verb TO drain. Stupid translator!)
That rant aside...
Honestly, Cloud does not act like he has any trauma going on.
He recalls that Nibleheim had a terrible incident going on, but he was convinced that he was in Zack's position at the time... though how he knew what was going on inside the reactor, when Cloud remained outside with Tifa until he faced Sephiroth inside... oh, also,
I much prefer Cloud from Crisis Core.
He is not trying to be someone he's not, he's not being an angsty post-teen like in AC; he's just... himself. Kind of sweet, happy, a bit naive and saddened that he didn't make it into Soldier, but doing his job.
Quote:
Counterpoint: Magilou is also the most cynical member of the party, is purposely trying to annoy everyone, and the cracks in her façade show as early as the four hour mark.
...wait, what part was the 4 hour mark? After the escape from Titania, nothing really happens anymore until the villa in Loegres, because it all feels so... bland. And the problem with annoying-on-purpose characters is the same: if they aren't somehow really entertaining or likeable, they are just plain annoying and makes me hate the character.
Quote:
it is clear that FFVII did something which most previous (and later) FFs didn’t,
Honestly, I think a lot of people liking VII as the 'best' FF for them is because... well, for a lot of them, it was their first FF game. People tend to like the first thing from a series they played a lot more than the rest, simply because... well, nostalgia. And that tends to muddle your rational approach, making you see mistakes less severe.
Quote:
they don’t have to work on self-improvement too much.
Luke from Tales of the Abyss would like to disagree. No, really, if you enjoy the whole identity thing being a major part for a character, play that game.
Quote:
he is courageous, confident, loyal, has his heart in the right place.
And has to learn to not be so hot-headed; has a huge issue with 'saving people'; and him having his 'heart in the right place' is one reason why he has such major issues with Occlumency, which caused some major mistakes to happen. His hot-headedness remains in Book 7, until rather late. A reason why I like Book 5 so much. Harry is not just an angsty teen (for good reason, for once), but his character flaws are shown to be things with actual consequences that need to be worked on.
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Quote:
Well, Cloud has basically no real sign that he is even aware that he's faking anything. He is the pout-frowny-face, stoic, "I am so awesome, this mere terrorism in Avalanche is nothing but child's play to me.... and I totally don't care about you all, I'm just doing it for money" type of ex-Soldier-turned-Mercenary.
IIRC There's at least a year between Crisis Core and VII. Given enough time and dedication, it's possible to convince yourself to believe something you know isn't true.
Quote:
though how he knew what was going on inside the reactor, when Cloud remained outside with Tifa until he faced Sephiroth inside... oh, also, Gackt Genesis was not part of the original Nibleheim incident.
Maybe Cloud could still hear Zack while he was being dragged around in the final act of Crisis Core and Zack just happened to give him a word for word recital of what happened? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Quote:
Quote:
Counterpoint: Magilou is also the most cynical member of the party, is purposely trying to annoy everyone, and the cracks in her façade show as early as the four hour mark.
...wait, what part was the 4 hour mark? After the escape from Titania, nothing really happens anymore until the villa in Loegres, because it all feels so... bland. And the problem with annoying-on-purpose characters is the same: if they aren't somehow really entertaining or likeable, they are just plain annoying and makes me hate the character.
Before entering the capital, she gets defensive when Laphi asks about her family. In the beach village whatever it was called, she plainly admits she's putting on an act. She hardly tries any humor during the situation in Aball. All of which is leads to her dropping the façade in front of [spoiler] two dungeons later. I'll concede that she has plenty of groan-worthy bits, but she had her moments. Coo coo.
Also for the record, my opinion on Magilou is just okay.
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Iden Versio wrote:
I've played dirge of cerberus and crisis core I like the way they portrayed cloud in both these games and I didn't like advent children. also they're making a remake of FFVII for PS4.
I'm looking forward to it, but I think FFVI deserves a remake, too. I don't think we will have one anytime soon, because Square is fucking lazy. They are only working on this FFVII remake for the $$.
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Iden Versio wrote:
I've played dirge of cerberus and crisis core I like the way they portrayed cloud in both these games and I didn't like advent children. also they're making a remake of FFVII for PS4.
Snrk....you mean all 5 seconds he's on screen in DoC?
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Thelema wrote:
@CatMuto Well, we can only speculate about what makes something so popular. Yes, a lot of people will put FFVII on a pedestal because of nostalgia (the game is 20 year old right now), but this doesn't explain the popularity and impact the game had at the time it was released. It obviously had something people liked, or something innovative for the era.
I'm looking forward to it, but I think FFVI deserves a remake, too. I don't think we will have one anytime soon, because Square is fucking lazy. They are only working on this FFVII remake for the $$.
Iden Versio wrote:
I've played dirge of cerberus and crisis core I like the way they portrayed cloud in both these games and I didn't like advent children. also they're making a remake of FFVII for PS4.
I'm looking forward to it, but I think FFVI deserves a remake, too. I don't think we will have one anytime soon, because Square is fucking lazy. They are only working on this FFVII remake for the $$.
same here. pretty much and while cloud doesn't get alot of screen time in doc he gets more than 5 seconds. also I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned vincent from doc whom I like plus yuffie and shalua.
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But...what little he was in DoC was the most generic, pointless dialogue out there. It's wholly inoffensive but it doesn't speak much of his character or nothing.
DoC I feel only really gave screentime to Reeve and Yuffie as side characters...not that I'm complaining. I liked Reeve in his regular dude persona rather than putting on the Cait Sith act.
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sumguy28 wrote:
Before entering the capital, she gets defensive when Laphi asks about her family. In the beach village whatever it was called, she plainly admits she's putting on an act. She hardly tries any humor during the situation in Aball. All of which is leads to her dropping the façade in front of [spoiler] two dungeons later. I'll concede that she has plenty of groan-worthy bits, but she had her moments. Coo coo.
Also for the record, my opinion on Magilou is just okay.
Also for the record, my opinion on Magilou is just okay.
I really don't remember that... I do recall how she was more subdued during the events in Aball. And I really liked it there because I thought, yes, she can be quiet and not obnoxious. I was hoping of having more of that. Thank goodness it came later, but - as I said - I felt it was too late. She spends too much time being loud and obnoxious to care much for the late parts, where she is more grounded and likeable.
I would love a remake of VI! Susumu Chiba already did an amazing job as Kefka in Dissidia. But... I also terrified of what they would do to the game, if they did remake it. Better graphics might be neat, but... recall, the cast of VI was really large. So large that half of them had no personality beyond their little 'episode'. It's a flaw I see of the game, but I would not want them to cut out half the cast (except maybe for Gogo and Umaro) because they are not considered important.
The music would be great. The Opera scene, with actual singing now? Not something only found when going to the concerts of FF music being played. Or even YouTube videos using Vocaloid to 'sing' it. But... can I just say that they (whether Square or the fans) would make a huge deal about Tina's haircolor? Going with the original blonde, as she was designed, people will complain because that's not how she was in the game. Going for the teal color, people will still complain.
And even I know that FF VI was pretty heavy on the blond hair. By original design, the ones with blond hair were Tina/Terra, Celes, Locke, Edgar, Sabin, Relm and Kefka. And most of those were changed for the Super Nintendo because of palette reasons. And to add some difference between Tina and Celes. Because if both remained blonde, you'd have no clue that they are different characters.
And what about the Rachel subplot? Some of the dungeon design? The way the Esper-level-up-parameter thing works... they would probably change so much, it would 'ruin' the game it originally was.
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So I really don’t care that a FFVI remake could change a character’s hair color or even some details. Even if it is a remake, it is a game of its own, and I will judge it more according to how bad/good it is as a game than on if it is 100% similar to the original.
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Pierre wrote:
Ok fair enough I was exaggerating.
But...what little he was in DoC was the most generic, pointless dialogue out there. It's wholly inoffensive but it doesn't speak much of his character or nothing.
DoC I feel only really gave screentime to Reeve and Yuffie as side characters...not that I'm complaining. I liked Reeve in his regular dude persona rather than putting on the Cait Sith act.
But...what little he was in DoC was the most generic, pointless dialogue out there. It's wholly inoffensive but it doesn't speak much of his character or nothing.
DoC I feel only really gave screentime to Reeve and Yuffie as side characters...not that I'm complaining. I liked Reeve in his regular dude persona rather than putting on the Cait Sith act.
What other characters do you like in doc besides Reeve?
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Iden Versio wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Ok fair enough I was exaggerating.
But...what little he was in DoC was the most generic, pointless dialogue out there. It's wholly inoffensive but it doesn't speak much of his character or nothing.
DoC I feel only really gave screentime to Reeve and Yuffie as side characters...not that I'm complaining. I liked Reeve in his regular dude persona rather than putting on the Cait Sith act.
But...what little he was in DoC was the most generic, pointless dialogue out there. It's wholly inoffensive but it doesn't speak much of his character or nothing.
DoC I feel only really gave screentime to Reeve and Yuffie as side characters...not that I'm complaining. I liked Reeve in his regular dude persona rather than putting on the Cait Sith act.
What other characters do you like in doc besides Reeve?
It was a long time ago so it's a battle to remember...
I liked Vincent obviously getting more focus and Yuffie too. I think some of the Deepground members were pretty cool too though I can't recall them specifically except for Weiss.
Still anyone tried out that Dissidia NT Beta? I'm interested in what other folks think of it. Particularly if they played the previous games.
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Pierre wrote:
Iden Versio wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Ok fair enough I was exaggerating.
But...what little he was in DoC was the most generic, pointless dialogue out there. It's wholly inoffensive but it doesn't speak much of his character or nothing.
DoC I feel only really gave screentime to Reeve and Yuffie as side characters...not that I'm complaining. I liked Reeve in his regular dude persona rather than putting on the Cait Sith act.
But...what little he was in DoC was the most generic, pointless dialogue out there. It's wholly inoffensive but it doesn't speak much of his character or nothing.
DoC I feel only really gave screentime to Reeve and Yuffie as side characters...not that I'm complaining. I liked Reeve in his regular dude persona rather than putting on the Cait Sith act.
What other characters do you like in doc besides Reeve?
It was a long time ago so it's a battle to remember...
I liked Vincent obviously getting more focus and Yuffie too. I think some of the Deepground members were pretty cool too though I can't recall them specifically except for Weiss.
Still anyone tried out that Dissidia NT Beta? I'm interested in what other folks think of it. Particularly if they played the previous games.
I like them both too. as for the deepground members they're names are Nero, Azul, Rosso and Shelke. what are your thoughts on crisis core?
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Xenoblade Chronicles 2
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I'm interested in mechanics,so I would be happy to learn about snake traps.
Good isn't a thing you are Its a thing you do
Just Do It
Keep It Classic
Equality
Dream Big
All for one One for all
#Autism Speaks
#Mamba Mentality#8#24#2
Celebrate Each New Day
#WNBAAllDay
Xenoblade Chronicles 2
Kingdom Heats 3
Xenoblade Chronicles
Destiny 2
I'm interested in mechanics,so I would be happy to learn about snake traps.
Good isn't a thing you are Its a thing you do
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
Yabba Dabba Doo
Gender: Male
Location: Hiding from responsibility
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:32 am
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Spoiler: Chapter 3
I'm not too far into the story (Just started chapter 5) but so far it's one of the least interesting stories I've seen in quite a while. The combat is ehh, nothing special. I know that most of the enjoyment of this game comes from exploring Eos, but I honestly can't find any motivation to actually explore. I just don't care about Eos.
Re: The Final Fantasy franchise
Gender: Female
Rank: Prosecutor
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:58 am
Posts: 888
I-III and XII are meh, I find V and VIII bad, have mixed feelings about XIII and there's nothing about XV that makes me want to play it. If you find IV and VI terrible or extremely boring, the series probably isn't for you (or most of the series).
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