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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDonor Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:08 pm
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
axl99 wrote:
Walkie Talkie Man wrote:
Maybe I'm thinking too hard on this one, but it has me stumped.

Spoiler: 4-1
Kristoph nailed Shadi over the head with a grape juice bottle. My question is: How? How did Kristoph get the grape juice bottle in the first place? I'm assuming it was the one that was lying on the table next to Shadi. If that's the case, Kristoph would have had to reach for the bottle before delivering the killing blow, giving Shadi enough time to subdue Kristoph. So, either Shadi fails at reaction time or I'm not getting something here.


Here's what I'm thinking in response to that.
Spoiler: 1-1 / 4-1
There was a photo of Phoenix and Shadi talking by the piano and the table where Phoenix and Kristoph just had dinner. There was a crate of grape juice bottles by the piano. Kristoph could've grabbed any one of those before going down to the one of the secret entrances.

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Spoiler: 4-1
Kristoph had to have used the bottle on the table. Phoenix stuffed the planted 5 of Hearts in that bottle, but the bottle recovered from the table by the investigation team didn't have the card in it, meaning it was switched. If Kristoph used a bottle from the crate upstairs, he would have had no reason to switch the bottle on the table.



Spoiler: 4=1
I believe ax199 means the bottle which hit Orly and the one killed Shadi was not the same one.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDonor Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:41 pm
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PhoenixAshes wrote:
Occlude Wave wrote:
PhoenixAshes wrote:
Spoiler: AJ:AA Case 2
Wait, Alita shot the safe when it was closed, right? Why isn't there a bullet hole on the front of the safe?

It was open, duh.


No, it wasn't... If it was, she would have taken the papers...

And when Apollo and Trucy heard the noise... She only typed in the first 2 numbers...

Which brings me to another contradiction...

How did she know the combination to the safe!?



Spoiler: 4-2
I think the case happened in this way:

Alita learned that Wocky wanna give the doctor "a lesson", so she stole his pistol and went to meet him first. She tried to persuade him to give her the papers but he didn't believe in her, which made her decide to force him to do that by using the pistol. She watch the doctor opening the safe and got the password. However, after the safe was opened, the doctor attacked Alita and "killed" her. The pistol fired and left the bullet in the open safe.

Then the doctor was trying to get rid of the "body". He closed the safe in a hurry and then all the stuff with the noodle stand.

Wish I answered your question. :pearl:
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:19 am
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HHLsp wrote:
Even in the first playthrough, I have already found some contradictions.

Spoiler:
In case 1:
If the grape juice bottle is the murder weapon, why wouldn't it brake after the hit?
OK, the bottle found in the crime scene is a fake one, so? The defense should be able to use this to get Phoenix out of trouble.


Spoiler:
This is for the same reason your hand doesn't break when you use it to karate chop through a block of wood. As long as the force of the hit was released into the victim's head, causing his head to get knocked back, it wouldn't have broken. On the other hand, if he'd smashed it against a brick wall, the kinetic energy would have welled up inside of it, causing it to shatter.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:27 am
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Spoiler: 4-3
Why didn't anyone consider the fact that the murder weapon, if fired by Machi, would've broken his arms, or at least render him unable to shoot again? He was a 14 year old piano player with no firearms experience! Come on! Sorry if this has been brought up.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:44 am
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HHLsp wrote:
Spoiler:
In case 4:
Kirihito is guilty of murder in case 1 right? Whether he is guilty in Case 4 or not. He is going to die, so why does he freak out at last?
Spoiler:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the punishment system in the Phoenix Wright universe is ever exactly explained. Sure, we know Dahlia and Darke got the death penalty. We don't know anything about anyone else. For the record, both Dahlia and Darke were serial killers, so them getting harsher punishments than usual makes sense. Then again, there was also Terry Fawles, who only "killed" one person (though they were 14 at the time, which might be especially considered bad). Still, there's some reasons to believe that the death penalty isn't automatic in the PW universe. The whole reason Engarde chose to be found guilty is so he DIDN'T have to die (can't imagine him doing that if he was going to get death anyway). Also, there's no indication in 3-3 that Maggey actually got sentenced to death either. Though personally I'm of the opinion that the death penalty is given according to plot needs; characters only get the death penalty if it's important to the plot.


HHLsp wrote:
Spoiler: "The Mason System"
The Mason System existed as a means of showing the Jury "the truth." The back and forth in time, I thought, was just to make it more interesting. History didn't necessarily have to have happened that way. Which...would pretty much makes Phoenix a dirty liar, but they never did attempt to excuse him from the bloody ace in the first case.

Spoiler:
It's horribly unclear as to what the Mason System is or even who he's talking to. He does refer to it as a game though, so likely he changed things to make it more, er, gamelike. Trying to figure out who he was talking to and what the Mason System really is seemed surprisingly reminiscent to trying to figure out the last two episodes of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:20 am
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Spoiler: 4-1
This has probably already been mentioned, but the bottles of "grape juice". If they're both glass bottles hard enough to kill (or knock unconscious) someone, then why didn't either the bottle Shadi used to hit Olga OR the bottle Kristoph used to brain Shadi break? Both bottles were completely unharmed, and that's completely unrealistic for a glass bottle. I thought that was going to be one of the contradictions! :O
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:31 am
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Lord Seth wrote:
HHLsp wrote:
Spoiler:
In case 4:
Kirihito is guilty of murder in case 1 right? Whether he is guilty in Case 4 or not. He is going to die, so why does he freak out at last?
Spoiler:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the punishment system in the Phoenix Wright universe is ever exactly explained. Sure, we know Dahlia and Darke got the death penalty. We don't know anything about anyone else. For the record, both Dahlia and Darke were serial killers, so them getting harsher punishments than usual makes sense. Then again, there was also Terry Fawles, who only "killed" one person (though they were 14 at the time, which might be especially considered bad). Still, there's some reasons to believe that the death penalty isn't automatic in the PW universe. The whole reason Engarde chose to be found guilty is so he DIDN'T have to die (can't imagine him doing that if he was going to get death anyway). Also, there's no indication in 3-3 that Maggey actually got sentenced to death either. Though personally I'm of the opinion that the death penalty is given according to plot needs; characters only get the death penalty if it's important to the plot.

Spoiler: 2-4, T&T
Dahlia was only convicted of one murder: Doug Swallow's. Even if someone wanted to take her back to court for killing Valerie, they couldn't because she was protected under double jeopardy (which makes Armando's summoning her to the courthouse kind of stupid and pointless when you think about it but I digress).

Engarde wanted to be convicted because de Killer would have certainly made his death much more slow and painful than the government would.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:38 am
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Not a 'real contradiction' per se, but a little confusing.

Spoiler: Spoiler for 4-4
During the Flash Back Trial with Nick if you look in the profiles you'll see any information relating to Mia is gone. Why is this weird? In all games if you look in the profiles, even in the beginning, Mia is always recorded as the mentor. I can understand Maya being gone from it since she's most likely at Kurain during this trial, but what happened to Mia?
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:43 am
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Spoiler: 2-4, T&T
Dahlia was only convicted of one murder: Doug Swallow's. Even if someone wanted to take her back to court for killing Valerie, they couldn't because she was protected under double jeopardy (which makes Armando's summoning her to the courthouse kind of stupid and pointless when you think about it but I digress).

Engarde wanted to be convicted because de Killer would have certainly made his death much more slow and painful than the government would.


Spoiler: 3-1, 3-4
I thought Valerie's trial ended in a mistrial because of Terry's death, which was why neither Edgeworth nor Mia received a loss on their respective records. Technically it wasn't Dahlia who was on trial, so theoretically the prosecution could have filed charges against her if they had any strong evidence. Also, during Phoenix's trial, it was proved that Dahlia also attempted to murder Phoenix (poisoned cold medicine) which may have factored into the recommendation of death.

I would assume that some of the criminals received only life imprisonment, though, because no court system doles out capital punishment that freely.


Spoiler: 4-1, 4-4
Did the game ever state if Kristoph received the death penalty, either after Shadi's killing or after the truth about the poisoning came out?
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:54 am
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Writer Awakened wrote:
Spoiler: 4-1
This has probably already been mentioned, but the bottles of "grape juice". If they're both glass bottles hard enough to kill (or knock unconscious) someone, then why didn't either the bottle Shadi used to hit Olga OR the bottle Kristoph used to brain Shadi break? Both bottles were completely unharmed, and that's completely unrealistic for a glass bottle. I thought that was going to be one of the contradictions! :O


Spoiler: A lot of things to talk about...
I was actually confused by that as well. Any bottle that's used with enough force to bludgeon someone to death would instantly shatter due to the kinetic energy. Me and my colleague at the forensics department tested this theory and it was found that you need to exert quite a lot of force just to kill the person with the kind of death that Shadi/Zak had on his head. Possibly enough to break a bottle...

About the punishment system, I would think that any heinous crime such as serial killing or cold blooded murder would be reasonable grounds for the death penalty. Assuming that's the case, then possibly Kristoph will be convicted in manslaughter and perhaps murder to the first degree due to his admission of the killings and had shown no remorse in getting rid of the victims.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:03 am
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Writer Awakened wrote:
Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Spoiler: 2-4, T&T
Dahlia was only convicted of one murder: Doug Swallow's. Even if someone wanted to take her back to court for killing Valerie, they couldn't because she was protected under double jeopardy (which makes Armando's summoning her to the courthouse kind of stupid and pointless when you think about it but I digress).

Engarde wanted to be convicted because de Killer would have certainly made his death much more slow and painful than the government would.


Spoiler: 3-1, 3-4
I thought Valerie's trial ended in a mistrial because of Terry's death, which was why neither Edgeworth nor Mia received a loss on their respective records. Technically it wasn't Dahlia who was on trial, so theoretically the prosecution could have filed charges against her if they had any strong evidence. Also, during Phoenix's trial, it was proved that Dahlia also attempted to murder Phoenix (poisoned cold medicine) which may have factored into the recommendation of death.

I would assume that some of the criminals received only life imprisonment, though, because no court system doles out capital punishment that freely.

Spoiler: PW arc
I don't think it was ever specifically stated that that was a mistrial, but I'd think the trial would be considered over if the defendant dies before being proven innocent.

Technically, Luke Atmey wasn't on trial in either of Ron's cases, but Phoenix said he couldn't be convicted if they let him go then.

It was never actually proven Dahlia had poisoned Phoenix's medicine. She accepted the guilty verdict before it could be tested.

No court system puts a three-day time limit on murder trials, either. :yogi: Some of the criminals may have been given lesser sentences under special conditions, but there's never any mention of that and we know Darke, Terry, Dahlia, and von Karma were all put on death row and/or executed. Only one of them was convicted as a serial killer.

Writer Awakened wrote:
Spoiler: 4-1, 4-4
Did the game ever state if Kristoph received the death penalty, either after Shadi's killing or after the truth about the poisoning came out?

Spoiler: 4-1, 4-4
No, but see my last statement. He probably got it.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:25 am
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What I want to know is who decides the punishment for a crime in the PW world? Obviously the final decision would rest with the judge, but is there ever any mention of anyone else recommending punishment? I can't see Udgey putting every criminal on trial to death XD

Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Spoiler: PW arc
I don't think it was ever specifically stated that that was a mistrial, but I'd think the trial would be considered over if the defendant dies before being proven innocent.

Technically, Luke Atmey wasn't on trial in either of Ron's cases, but Phoenix said he couldn't be convicted if they let him go then.

It was never actually proven Dahlia had poisoned Phoenix's medicine. She accepted the guilty verdict before it could be tested.

No court system puts a three-day time limit on murder trials, either. :yogi: Some of the criminals may have been given lesser sentences under special conditions, but there's never any mention of that and we know Darke, Terry, Dahlia, and von Karma were all put on death row and/or executed. Only one of them was convicted as a serial killer.


Spoiler: 3-1
What I meant was, since Dahlia wasn't found "not guilty" of Valerie's murder, she could still have been charged with the crime because charges had never been brought against her in the first place (and thus double jeopardy would not apply). But there wasn't any decisive evidence, so the prosecution didn't hold another trial.


Spoiler: 3-2
In Luke's case, it wasn't that he couldn't be convicted due to the law itself; the reason Luke couldn't have been declared guilty of Bullard's murder was because he would have been found guilty of stealing the urn, thereby giving him an alibi for the exact time of the murder. They use the term "double jeopardy" erroneously at several points during that trial, but the reason that they stopped the second Mask DeMasque trial was because of the "guilty alibi".

Also, after Ron was acquitted, they had to put Luke on trial separately for the crime; the first case wasn't Luke's trial, so double jeopardy wouldn't apply to him.


Actually, that reminds me of an interesting point. At the end of the trial, everyone says "Ron was found not guilty of being Mask DeMasque, yay!" But that wasn't the case: He was found not guilty of stealing the sacred urn. If the prosecutors had enough evidence, they could still try him for the theft of the Tear of Emanon, Crown of...whatever, etc.
XD. Poor Ron. :yuusaku:
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:51 am
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Personally, I think the reality of it is that a lot of these contradictions are solved by one simple answer...

Spoiler:
The people who made the game overlooked some things. :udgy:



In any case, I'd like to voice my opinion on the who dies/who doesn't controversy.

Spoiler:
Of course, although some aspects are loosely based on some people's legal system, this exact system doesn't exist. I live in America, myself, where the jurist system is employed. But in this futuristic world, much trust is placed in the Judge (you have to wonder how this works, how they're chosen. If they choose Mike Meekins for a bailiff, and their Judge is someone who believed until recently that women are born with colored nails, is this really safe?) In any case, it's most likely that during the separate trial of the accused, if and when the 'Guilty' verdict is placed on those peoples' heads, it is then chosen how harsh their sentence will be. For instance, it was later proven that Dahlia Hawthorne stole that diamond...ah, that's one mark against. There's a possibility she was going to try to poison someone...another tick on the chart. Maybe the judge just looks at all of the aspects of this, and based on how many or the severity of the charges, makes his choice. I mean, we never do actually SEE the trials of the real guilty people. Maybe at the end, like in the US (as far as I know), the judge announces the sentence, modifies it to the specific crime, maybe it's discussed among lawyers. I really don't know. But the truth is, a), although it's a game based on being a lawyer, we know surprisingly little about the structure of the law. And b), it is in fact a game, and although I'm sure the creators took great care to explain as much as they could...like all authors make typos, games have plot holes, and there's nothing you can really do about it. To err is human...to forgive is divine. Quoting our favorite prosecutor.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:57 am
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If I have my information correct (and I don't know if I do), during the sentencing process (after the trial deciding the defendant's guilt), the jury "recommends" a certain punishment, but it's the judge's discretion to make the final decision.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineModerators Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:25 am
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Spoiler: 4-3
So, why the hell did no-one check for fingerprints on the revolver immediately? Case solved!
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:43 pm
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Spoiler: 4-3
Why is it that, if Machi Tobaye pressed the Remote Trigger at phase 2 of the second set, because it was then when he was playing single-handed; and even so, Klavier's guitar is on fire at the third fase?
The guitar was kept dry so the fire would spread pretty quickly, and it's clear that it burnt on the third fase, because both the video and the mixer audio show so ( :kyouya: makes a last loud noise, then stops playing at the third phase.).
This brings up another point: If Lamiroir stopped above the dressing room where the shooting happened (phase 3), and then she heard Daian telling Machi to press the switch then; would that mean that Machi actually pressed the remote on the third phase?
If that's true, then the answer to when he was played single-handed should have been phase 3, and not phase 2.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:54 pm
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I can't remember which phase started/ended where, so I'll try to answer the question as best as possible. During the close-up in the video, if you focuse on Klavier's guitar, you'll see the inside of it light up almost right after she hears the gun shot. He doesn't realize it's on fire until it starts smoking much later on. The igniter itself is a pretty small device, so even though the guitar was nice and dry, it would've taken some time for the fire to catch on because of the guitar's size. I'm actually surprised they didn't clarify this in the game.. it's really easy to miss if it's not pointed out. So the way I saw it happening was still: gunshot, second verse starts, single-handed piano playing, igniter set off.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:12 pm
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Aevitas wrote:
I can't remember which phase started/ended where, so I'll try to answer the question as best as possible. During the close-up in the video, if you focuse on Klavier's guitar, you'll see the inside of it light up almost right after she hears the gun shot. He doesn't realize it's on fire until it starts smoking much later on. The igniter itself is a pretty small device, so even though the guitar was nice and dry, it would've taken some time for the fire to catch on because of the guitar's size. I'm actually surprised they didn't clarify this in the game.. it's really easy to miss if it's not pointed out. So the way I saw it happening was still: gunshot, second verse starts, single-handed piano playing, igniter set off.

Spoiler:
Isn't the gunshot right at the beginning of the third verse?
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:24 pm
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Second.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:04 pm
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(vo_o)> Objection!

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I'm surprised no one brought this one up. Though, that probably means I'M the one missing something.

Spoiler: Case 4-3
When Romein is found by Apollo, as it's said a number of times, he named Lamiroir (A.K.A The Siren) as a witness in the case. This makes complete sense when we were under the assumption that Lamiroir passed by the small window in the room and we assume Romein thought she may have heard something. (After all, he said himself that she can't see... unless that's Klavier propaganda)

However, come Day 2, that's a complete contradiction of facts.

Romein is shot in the section of the room away from the air duct. There's no possible way Romein could have known that Lamiroir was in the duct listening unless he walked over to that side of the room, and considering he was shot by a 45 caliber revolver, he probably wasn't looking to go anywhere.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:38 pm
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Biolizard28 wrote:
Spoiler: Case 4-3
When Romein is found by Apollo, as it's said a number of times, he named Lamiroir (A.K.A The Siren) as a witness in the case. This makes complete sense when we were under the assumption that Lamiroir passed by the small window in the room and we assume Romein thought she may have heard something. (After all, he said himself that she can't see... unless that's Klavier propaganda)

However, come Day 2, that's a complete contradiction of facts.

Romein is shot in the section of the room away from the air duct. There's no possible way Romein could have known that Lamiroir was in the duct listening unless he walked over to that side of the room, and considering he was shot by a 45 caliber revolver, he probably wasn't looking to go anywhere.


Spoiler: Response
It's possible that he knew where Lamiror was going to be at that time; in fact, that may have been the whole reason he was in the room! He was her bodyguard, even if it was just a cover. Keep in mind that he was hearing the whole stage production during Act 2 over the intercom, so he could pinpoint where she would be at that time.

Also, just for the record, we have to keep in mind that he survived a full act just bleeding like that before dying. Now THAT'S badass.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineSuspect Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:47 am
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Spoiler:
Also, since he could hear the performance, he probably also heard her mess up the words after the shot, so he probably figured she heard it.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:12 am
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Spoiler: A continuation of the above
And to keep it up, he may have seen her brooch fall from the vent. On an unrelated note, I'm glad they actually spelled "brooch" right in this game (as opposed to TnT's "broach"). It's pronounced "broach," but very uncommon to see it spelled that way (if at all).
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:14 am
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Are all the spoiler tags necessary? The entire thread is already marked, and it's pretty clear that there WILL be spoilers if you go into this thread. >_>

Anyway, to add to this particular contradiction, I was a bit confused as to when Machi was in the room and when he left it. And if he was there, wouldn't he have been spotted at some point? (Either by LeTouse or Daryan?).. And why was he found unconscious on the platform with LeTouse's moved body?
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:56 am
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Personally, why didn't Machi just put it, like, under his foot or something? It's not like it's bright underneath the piano bench...
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:01 am
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The spot where you found it (inside the piano) threw me off so much. I thought he stuck the switch in his piano and would play that specific note which had the piano hammer hit the button to set off the igniter. I didn't think he was actually playing with only one hand...
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:15 am
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Yeah, I thought they had rigged it so that pressing a certain key also triggered the switch. That would have been pretty cool.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:23 pm
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Franzise Deauxnim wrote:
Spoiler: 2-4, T&T
Dahlia was only convicted of one murder: Doug Swallow's. Even if someone wanted to take her back to court for killing Valerie, they couldn't because she was protected under double jeopardy (which makes Armando's summoning her to the courthouse kind of stupid and pointless when you think about it but I digress).

Engarde wanted to be convicted because de Killer would have certainly made his death much more slow and painful than the government would.
Spoiler: T&T
In Dahlia's case, I don't think that was double jeopardy. It says if you're found innocent of a crime, you can't be tried again. Okay. But Dahlia was never found innocent, the case against her was never brought to trial (the reason Atmey would have been found innocent was because by being found guilty in another case, he'd be found not guilty in the murder case due to his alibi...apparently) Also, even if double jeopardy was in effectd, Dahlia went down for at the very minimum murder (Doug) and ATTEMPTED murder (Phoenix), so it wasn't just one murder. And possibly for the "murder" of Diego Armando.

In regards to the punishment system, if you get a game over, the Judge DOES say something about how there will be a trial at a higher court within a month's time. That might be when the punishment is decided.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:05 pm
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Quote:
Yeah, I thought they had rigged it so that pressing a certain key also triggered the switch. That would have been pretty cool.

But also, quite impossible. You see, Machi's piano is the same one that the Gavinner Pianist uses in the first and third acts. If the key was rigged, it'd go off at the wrong time. That, and there'd be no point doing it like that as 1) Klavier would be able to spot the off note instantly and 2) They only did it when they knew that LeTois was the spy and he was onto them.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:13 pm
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Aevitas wrote:
Anyway, to add to this particular contradiction, I was a bit confused as to when Machi was in the room and when he left it. And if he was there, wouldn't he have been spotted at some point? (Either by LeTouse or Daryan?).. And why was he found unconscious on the platform with LeTouse's moved body?


Spoiler: 4-3
Machi was in the room during the third set, when Daryan was onstage. Therefore LeTouse had already been shot by this point. Machi hadn't known about the murder, only about the cocoon and the guitar's destruction. He went into his and Lamiroir's dressing room probably to change or something (I don't remember if it gives a reason.) He probably didn't notice LeTouse's body at this point because of the partition. Then Daryan heard Apollo and Ema talking outside through the earpiece on the floor and set off the fire-crackers to create the fake gunshots. It was at this point that Machi too was fooled and thought someone had just killed LeTouse. Frightened, he escaped through the air vent. Presumabaly, Daryan found him later and knocked him out so he could set up the thing with the platform.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:38 am
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Case 4-4
Spoiler:
I'm not sure if these count as contradictions, but two questions occured to me when Zak explained how the braclets work.

1. The method Zak describes seems to suggest only one braclet is needed. Why then did Lamiroir wear two of them?

2. If the braclets shrink to perfectly fit the wearer's wrist(s), how are you are supposed to take them off?
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineMedium-in-training Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:56 am
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SwordKing wrote:
1. The method Zak describes seems to suggest only one braclet is needed. Why then did Lamiroir wear two of them?

Because two existed. She had two so she wore them both.
SwordKing wrote:
2. If the braclets shrink to perfectly fit the wearer's wrist(s), how are you are supposed to take them off?[/spoiler]

Dunk it in some warm/cold water and it'll expand/contract.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Wed Feb 27, 2008 5:23 am
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Although I'm sure the grape juice bottle contradiction has been referred to already, I'll answer as well.

Spoiler:
A glass bottle is incredibly hard to break on someone's head, actually. It's very believable that someone could be hit hard enough to cause cranial bleeding (Which is what killed him, IIRC) without breaking the bottle.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:16 pm
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Spoiler: 4-2
I'm pretty sure those strangling marks on Alita's neck depicted in the picture had the end point of the wire in the back of her neck. Still in the picture, where you saw Meraktis strangling her, he did it from in front of her.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:26 pm
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Tinker wrote:
Spoiler: 4-3
So, why the hell did no-one check for fingerprints on the revolver immediately? Case solved!


Fingerprints were probably wiped off, I assume? That's what usually happens. Heck, it seems like in these games, whenever there are prints on the murder weapon, they're usually planted by the killer to frame the defendant.

Spoiler: Other Case 3 Oddities
How did anyone ever believe that Machi dragged Romein's body up some stairs and onto the stage? Machi is a little boy and Romein is a huge man. In fact, how would he have raised the tower while lying on it, without an accomplice?


Spoiler: Some things that bugged me in case 1
So, Kristoph hit Shadi with the bottle he found downstairs. Then, he went upstairs to swap the bottles. Then, he went downstairs to place the new bottle on the table.
1. If he planned to kill Shadi, why not bring a weapon?
2. The layout of the room makes it seem like Shadi's chair was right in front of the secret passage. How did Kristoph get the bottle to hit him with? He would have had to walk around Shadi to do so, which makes the angle of attack seem pretty questionable.
3. Even with the secret passage, it seems odd that he'd be able to go back and forth between the two floors without bumping into Phoenix... wasn't Phoenix making the phone call from the room with the piano?


None of those are impossible, but they do make it seem pretty unlikely.

Croik wrote:
Spoiler: 4-4
Kristoph did get the death penalty, I think (at least, there's nothing to suggest that the law was changed). But in PW world it takes at least 5 to 6 years for that sentence to be carried out, most of the time (in the cases of Terry and Dahlia, anyway). So it's no surprise that he was still alive a few months later, for 4-4.


Spoiler: I don't know...
Judging by the look of his cell, he's got a pretty cushy life there. My guess is that a combination of factors resulted in him getting a rather light sentence.


Spoiler: Finally, regarding the 4-4 issue people keep bringing up
Phoenix makes it pretty clear that the MASON system is a "simulation," or even a "game," so I think the "time-traveling" evidence is not only acceptable, it's the whole point of the system.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAce Attorney Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:48 pm
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Godot's uncle wrote:
Spoiler: 4-2
I'm pretty sure those strangling marks on Alita's neck depicted in the picture had the end point of the wire in the back of her neck. Still in the picture, where you saw Meraktis strangling her, he did it from in front of her.
Yeah, here are the pictures:
ImageImage


Spoiler: 4-2
No, because what he did was loop the cord around the back of her neck and then cross the wires in front of her. He'd be cutting off her circulation from the front, but the wire would press harder into the back of her neck because he's pulling it forward. That's why the marks are so visible from behind. On a semi-related note, that's...really a terrible, terrible, vicious crime. Just looking at that picture makes me feel bad for Alita.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDesk Jockey Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:07 pm
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[quote="LuigiHann]
Spoiler: I don't know...
Judging by the look of his cell, he's got a pretty cushy life there. My guess is that a combination of factors resulted in him getting a rather light sentence.

[/quote]

True, after all even though for all of the EEEEEEEEEEEVIL! Stuff he pulled, Kristoph was still a respected and well known defense attorney, so I guess the courts gave him a bit of leniency based on his past record. (Unless he cheated his way to victory in all his other cases...Hmmmm)

That and Kristoph is pretty well off financially (He had $100,000 to drop on forged evidence, so come on he has to be loaded.) and oftentimes privileged people get special treatment when they are incarcerated.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineProsecutor Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:37 pm
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LuigiHann wrote:

Spoiler: Some things that bugged me in case 1
So, Kristoph hit Shadi with the bottle he found downstairs. Then, he went upstairs to swap the bottles. Then, he went downstairs to place the new bottle on the table.
1. If he planned to kill Shadi, why not bring a weapon?
2. The layout of the room makes it seem like Shadi's chair was right in front of the secret passage. How did Kristoph get the bottle to hit him with? He would have had to walk around Shadi to do so, which makes the angle of attack seem pretty questionable.
3. Even with the secret passage, it seems odd that he'd be able to go back and forth between the two floors without bumping into Phoenix... wasn't Phoenix making the phone call from the room with the piano?



I'm going to guess:

1. He didn't know Shadi was going to be there at the restaurant. He was just having a routine dinner with Phoenix at the restaurant where he plays. It just so happened that he passed him in the hallway on the way out. Shadi made a note of him not recognizing him, but obviously, we now know he did. At that point, he probably turned around and sneaked back to the restaurant in an attempt to kill Shadi on the fly.

3. I'm not sure if he said it was that same room. I was under the impression he was just in the lobby or something.
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineDecisive Witness Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:25 am
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Aevitas wrote:
3. I'm not sure if he said it was that same room. I was under the impression he was just in the lobby or something.


Spoiler: hold it!
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Re: GS4 Contradictions (Spoilers, almost every case)Topic%20Title
OfflineAdmin Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:39 am
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LuigiHann wrote:
Spoiler: Some things that bugged me in case 1
So, Kristoph hit Shadi with the bottle he found downstairs. Then, he went upstairs to swap the bottles. Then, he went downstairs to place the new bottle on the table.
1. If he planned to kill Shadi, why not bring a weapon?
2. The layout of the room makes it seem like Shadi's chair was right in front of the secret passage. How did Kristoph get the bottle to hit him with? He would have had to walk around Shadi to do so, which makes the angle of attack seem pretty questionable.
3. Even with the secret passage, it seems odd that he'd be able to go back and forth between the two floors without bumping into Phoenix... wasn't Phoenix making the phone call from the room with the piano?


You've got your facts messed up.

Spoiler:
While Shadi and Phoenix were playing poker, Kristoph took the bottle Phoenix drank during dinner and brought it with him down into the secret passage. He waited until he had a chance to be alone with Shadi, which was just after Shadi hit Olga. Phoenix took the stairs up to the restaurant, and Kristoph used the bottle from dinner to kill Shadi.

Kristoph then put the bottle on the table, swiped the one that was already there, and hid back in the secret passage until Phoenix returned to the basement. While he was in the basement checking the scene, Kristoph put the bottle that had been downstairs (the one with the card) and left the restuarant.
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