Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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I still love this. I can wait til whenever for the next bit.
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Here you go guys, on Thursday as promised.
Please read this AFTER you've read it...
Spoiler:
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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(I like the 'making up' scene.)
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Maya wrote:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4634384/5/What_Went_Wrong
Here you go guys, on Thursday as promised.
Please read this AFTER you've read it...
Here you go guys, on Thursday as promised.
Please read this AFTER you've read it...
Spoiler:
Spoiler: For same reason as above
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
OBJECTION......and....stuff
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This is my favorite fic i have read so far! Don't make it end!
THANX Delsy
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Badgering the witness? Hmph.
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Ive actually written another epic, I'll get typing those up soon!!
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
「これが、モノを殺すと言うことだ…！」
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Maya wrote:
It's different, it's set just after the third game... Maya leans on Phoenix for comfort after the death of her mother and tried to avoid going back to Kurain as much as possible. Though she knows in her heart she must return.
OH OH OH OH OH, use this fic of mine as a base. Given your story starting point, it fits like a glove. =p
If videogames make murderers, then guns kill people and spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
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Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Maya wrote:
It's different, it's set just after the third game... Maya leans on Phoenix for comfort after the death of her mother and tried to avoid going back to Kurain as much as possible. Though she knows in her heart she must return.
AWWW I am excited.
Poor Maya and her mother. It must have really hurt :/ The 'being cheerful around Pearl' was a front. And then right after Phoenix gets disbarred, which would have been traumatic for her too, and...
And with precedents like the last fic, I'm thinking you can pull this one off well.
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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I've rewritten the... intimate scene... like 5 times, I can't seem to get that 'rushing' effect without it seeming too random you know? any advice guys?
Dude. Just realised in this fic... I've written Kristoph instead of Klavier!
What a n00b... but I'm assuming readers knew what I meant. I hope.
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
「これが、モノを殺すと言うことだ…！」
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If videogames make murderers, then guns kill people and spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
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Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Maya wrote:
Dude. Just realised in this fic... I've written Kristoph instead of Klavier! What a n00b... but I'm assuming readers knew what I meant. I hope.
What a n00b... but I'm assuming readers knew what I meant. I hope.Would a word find-replace work?
Well, I can take a look at the fic if you like, though I have no idea how useful my critique would be really (unknown quantity). But, multiple heads are better than one?
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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i was perched on mytoes atthe end of every chapter.
the suspense! the excitement!
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Does it end at Chapter 5 or is there some more in the pipeline?
Rob
Re: What Went Wrong (Phoenix/Maya)
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Well... I am working on more but I'm having real trouble at the moment seeing whether it would be best to keep it as it is or add more. I've written lots more but I think until I can see the end in sight (and one I'm satisfied with) I won't post anymore in case it ends up a disaster. Eeek!
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And I'm really looking forward to the other one.
Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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It's still in progress, so it's not complete, there is much drama to ensue so beware, its not as fluffy as it begins so enjoy it while you can hehe...
SUMMARY: Maya and Phoenix play out the consequences after the Godot trial, Maya leans on Phoenix for comfort but is she taking too much advantage of his kindness? Is she just avoiding going back to Kurain? (I suck at summaries and titles)
Here's the link at ff.net! http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4812399/1/B ... n_a_Moment
Hope you like it
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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but yes, I like it so far. Damn, it's cute.
Put me out of my misery and update again soon, please.
“Yeah right... I’m not ashamed of being the losers of the party...!” Phoenix cried, “I have no shame!”
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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I was going to do a Phoenix/maya fic but I never got round to it...Plu how on earth can I make a fanfic as great as this?????
Keep up the amazing work!!!
Thanks Christie so much for Pearl which I adopted from her :3 Yay Christie
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
Witness my stand... FOUGHT THE LAW!!!
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pairing it`s not my favorite I liked it!Well, I liked it so far... so keep writing if its not done yet!
Thanks. It was, is and always will be a pleasure.
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"Getting into law school will make you realize how fucking bonkers these games are... like REALLY"
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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icer wrote:
I WANT MORE!
but yes, I like it so far. Damn, it's cute.
Put me out of my misery and update again soon, please.
but yes, I like it so far. Damn, it's cute.
Put me out of my misery and update again soon, please.
I completely agree! Give us more!
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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If videogames make murderers, then guns kill people and spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
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Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
Where's Pikachu? ...I mean Wally!
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Keep up the good work!
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Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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What did you guys like in particular? Anything you didn't like? Feel free to tell me!
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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Maya wrote:
Thanks everybody! I'm glad you liked it. DZ, you're right about the typos, I just ahh... I get so excited when I type it up about posting it that I forget! hehe..
What did you guys like in particular? Anything you didn't like? Feel free to tell me!
What did you guys like in particular? Anything you didn't like? Feel free to tell me!
I like your dynamic between them. It's so cute how they interact and you get the 'we're oblivious' thing so well. All this unwitting physical contact and stuff, like Phoenix randomly tickling Maya (just like, say 2-3 really) and then suddenly we find out they've been sleeping in the same bed.
0_0 (Oblivious) Boundary overstep much? I love it! (Even though, personally I would not have expected it at that time point..) It's such a cute image... I wish I did have an image actually...
I also love how you return Franziska to your fics without her being OOC, irrelevant or in a token Franziska/Edgeworth (like we have to compensate for the Phoenix/Maya or something.)
A few grammar/typing errors are fine, so long as we can read it, I'd much rather that than wait even longer. (Just fix the 'Maggie' one. That's important. Do remember 2-1.)
As for criticism... in the credits Maya says she's going to keep being the assistant, but in this fic you're kind of implying her return to Kurain will be permanant, not with intention of continuing as assistant, and the disbarring hasn't happened yet. Also I think the timeline is off, if this is after 3-5? It's not December, it's Feb or something and he gets disbarred in April. Never mind.
This is about to take a darker turn, isn't it? Can't wait... provided it has a happy ending, right?
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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What you said about implying her return to Kurain will be permanant, I wanted it to come off that, well, we all know she has to lead the Kurain, so even though it comes off as like, shes GOING AND NEVA COMING BACK!!11, in my mind it was more shes taking her job as leader seriously...? and full time? So this doesn't rule off speaking to him or visiting him or Nick visiting her completely off, as Phoenix said, it only takes two hours by train! And no, in this fic the disbarring hasn't happened yet. So I will try to get the timeline sorted for future chapters T.T
So, I'm cautious to post the next chapter tomorrow, it will change to an M rating. You all know what that means, how does that sound?
Update on What Went Wrong, trying my hardest to get it finished! Still typing away lines and lines... then deleting it all in a rage...
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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Maya wrote:
Thanks for the criticism Icer, I really appriciate it. I feel totally stupid for not thinking about the timeline! I got carried away with writing it during my Christmas break from university So I will try to get the timeline sorted for future chapters T.T
So, I'm cautious to post the next chapter tomorrow, it will change to an M rating. You all know what that means, how does that sound?
So, I'm cautious to post the next chapter tomorrow, it will change to an M rating. You all know what that means, how does that sound?
Well, it doesn't matter about the timeline, it's just if you want it to fit with canon so we can pretend it happened and stuff.. but (without re-reading the fic) I think you could just say something like the scene where it's said to be Christmas (where they eat the cheap food) was a flashback in the past, maybe they recall it as they eat identical cheap noodles and the rest of the scene continues in the present, which isn't December but March or whatever it was.
It sounds like I'm now anticipating it more than before
All that editing you do... makes you seem like an actual writer! I never rewrite or edit any of my fanfic (beyond obvious spelling etc.) so I suppose that's why they're all so mediocre. Also, if I can't write them in one sitting, then I lose plot inspiration. (All my longer stories have a point of degeneration where I had to stop and pick up the next day. ew.)
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
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Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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Good to see an incredible way of writing. It was really pleasant to read through the chapters. The description was one of the best I've ever seen I would like to write like that jaja =D. Give me more to read plz! xD
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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So yeah, I do spend a LOT of time on my fics, I write them by hand as I'm travelling or at work!
Anyways, here is the second chapter, I'm really nervous as to what you guys will think of it...
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4812399/2/B ... n_a_Moment
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..poor Franzy. I can't imagine her with a man either. [Probably for different reasons though.]
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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I've read (and reviewed) the two existing chapters of your story on FFnet, and I'll repeat my questions/criticism here for easier discussion:
Chapter 1
The story is interesting and many parts are very well done. I liked the dinner function thing and how you wrote the supporting characters Edgeworth and Gumshoe. Though I thought saying 'youse' was Tigre's shtick... Gumshoe's verbal tic is to say 'pal'. And Maggey's name needs to be fixed, too... (in the first chapter only - I noticed it had changed to the correct version in the second chapter)
I like how Phoenix and Maya can sleep in the same bed without anything needing to happen, but I think that's a better opportunity for their attraction to each other overcoming their resistance than most other things. I'd imagine they'd have long talks lying there together in the darkness, and that's when they would feel the attraction the strongest.
Something else about Phoenix - he seems a little less competent/mature here than how he is presented in the games. With his experience as an attorney, he should know that 'Do you really want to leave so soon?' is a bad way to phrase the question - what he really should be asking is 'Why do you want to leave so soon?'. He has interrogated witnesses long enough to know the difference.
Also, he doesn't seem to care as much as he should about not knowing the exact date when Maya is planning to leave. The way it looks, apparently Maya wasn't/isn't too clear on that herself, but in the last part of the chapter, it seems that moment is coming closer, so I'm a bit surprised about Phoenix not enquiring further.
The only other bit of criticism is that the tickling and other small bits of physical contacts felt a bit forced, especially at the party. I believe that Phoenix and Maya teasing each other is an integral part of their relationship, but I think they lean towards doing that with words, jokes, jibes, things like that, rather than physical needling. But what do I know, maybe their dynamic would change if they spent as much time together as they do in your story.
Heh. I hope my nitpicking is helpful rather than just annoying. I'll move on the second chapter now.
Chapter 2
*blinks* Well, that last bit was certainly unexpected. I thought Maya would go back to Kurain without anything like this happening. But I guess it's more dramatic if this happens before they are forced to separate, no?
I'm sorry, but I don't like cheap drama very much. I would hope this changes something about Maya's departure, but I don't think it will - that's not how stories like this one work.
Another thing I thought strange was that Phoenix was relatively aggressive in initiating the encounter at the end. I picture Phoenix more as the 'voice of reason' kind of guy, and while I don't think he would object to Maya's advances per se, I think he would be more likely to let her set the pace and ask her 'Are you sure you want us to do this?'. Taking their characters into account, she should have been the one to undress him. With this much alcohol in her system, I think Maya would be rather aggressive and Phoenix doesn't mind, so the outcome would be the same, but I think that Phoenix is very, very good at keeping his emotions and impulses in check. His reason being overwhelmed by lust as it is presented here doesn't fit his character very well.
And what happened afterwards? There's this single line about how they 'took a moment to enjoy everything they had together alone in the room'. That doesn't tell us zilch. What happens while they are/after they are done enjoying the afterglow? Do they talk? Do they fall asleep immediately? Do they get dressed and pretend nothing happened? I don't think this should be omitted; after all, it's not possible that nothing happens. So why isn't there anything about it in the story?
Personally, I think there should be some sort of conversation here. Apart from the fact that this is the perfect opportunity to talk about Maya's impending return to Kurain ("I don't want you to go..." or "I'll miss you..."), if they talk neither during *nor* after their lovemaking, that bodes ill for their future relationship. Communication is what makes relationships work, after all.
Either way it would have been nice to see them talk just so we can see what either of them think of what happened and to show that it's still Phoenix and Maya, our favorite characters, rather than just two people getting it on who could be replaced with any other couple without it making much of a difference in that part of the story.
That other section where they tease Franziska was funny. Really cruel, but funny. Still, I wouldn't be want to be them stumbling over her in an abandoned hallway afterwards...
On another note, if you want to see my version of Phoenix and Maya lying in bed together and talking, check out 'Ultra Course' in its CR thread or from my profile here on FFnet. I think I have a pretty good handle on their personalities and interaction. Tell me what you think!
Quizer
Ultra Course - A Phoenix/Maya fanfiction by Quizer
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Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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I hope you enjoyed it! I totally agree that Maya should have been the more aggressive one but for Phoenix's sake I didn't want him to come off, to put it blunty, a pussy. Everytime I rewrote it I was thinking Phoenix was coming off really lamely, I did actually have him thinking all this stuff, narrating his feelings as it was going on but then I felt it really took away from the thoughtlessness and the general "moment". However, the only thing I can say in retaliation is really, simply, that... it's not a romantic happy love fic, my fics tend to be "slice of life", for instance, saying 'Don't go...' or 'I'll miss you' (cringe)... To be honest, any mushy cliche lines during the last scene would not have been right for this fic. I mean, who does that? That to me would have been cheap, (not trying to start anything here, just my opinion) About the relationship and communication, of course you're right in general but this isn't a fic where things work out like that and unfortunately this isn't suppose to be the scene where they finally "get together", in the sense of a relationship starting.
Don't really know what to say about Phoenix to you, dude... you say he's in control of his emotions, however in my opinion, that doesn't mean he's great at expressing them, you know what I mean?
LAST POINT! Next chapter does a lot of explaining, thinking, feeling, talking, all that post drama shizzle.
Anyways, I really feel annoyed that I had to explain myself, but now I'm doubting myself, does everyone else understand the kind of story I'm trying to portray?
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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Quote:
I really feel annoyed that I had to explain myself, but now I'm doubting myself, does everyone else understand the kind of story I'm trying to portray?
I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh there. Not liking misunderstandings and communication failures and things like that is a personal preference of mine. It does not reflect on the quality of your story. If I look around me, I see tons of people who like this sort of thing. I can't see why, but if they do, good for them! 
Quote:
About the relationship and communication, of course you're right in general but this isn't a fic where things work out like that and unfortunately this isn't suppose to be the scene where they finally "get together", in the sense of a relationship starting.
Yeah, I gathered that much. You stated from the beginning that this was going to be drama, so I can't really bitch and moan about that. But I have more reason than that for my criticism; see down below.Quote:
[...] for instance, saying 'Don't go...' or 'I'll miss you' (cringe)... To be honest, any mushy cliche lines during the last scene would not have been right for this fic. I mean, who does that? That to me would have been cheap (not trying to start anything here, just my opinion).
I think them not talking is the cliché thing, because that allows the complication in the first place. Phoenix wants her to stay, right? And Maya doesn't really want to leave deep in her heart, though she feels obligated to. Those lines are what Phoenix is feeling. But they don't talk and this allows the cliché plot to form in the first place: the Forced Separation.(The lines I suggested are cliché, too, looking back on it, but since it is something I as the reader want to happen, it doesn't really bother me. Also, what is preferable, a cliché line or two or a whole cliché plot? Anyway, these lines were only meant as conversation starters. The conversation that followed wouldn't be cliché unless deliberately made so.)
The issue I have with this isn't really the plot itself, but that I'm not convinced by it. The circumstances that draw them apart and keep them from reaching that happy relationship state (which I hope/guess will be reached at the end of the story) are so flimsily constructed that they would fall apart the moment the characters really started talking about their feelings.
I don't hate all drama, but I like mine to be a little more solid than that. This is why I prefer to write and read stories where the conflict comes not from within, but from without. The conflict should be such that the characters are able to act their best and still not solve it too easily, and the latter form is more suited towards that end. Trying to solve the problem by dumbing the characters down and having them act stupid so they won't solve the problem immediately is the easy way out. The hard way is to work at making the conflict difficult enough that just talking about it won't solve it. (For example, I might have the Kurain elders become the bigger problem and show Phoenix and Maya deal with that together once they talked through their own issues.)
Quote:
Don't really know what to say about Phoenix to you, dude... you say he's in control of his emotions, however in my opinion, that doesn't mean he's great at expressing them, you know what I mean?
Phoenix wasn't too good with his emotions and impulses when he was Mia's defendant, but he has come a long way since then. I think you give him too little credit; I would say he is very good at expressing his emotions, too, if he really wants to show them, and he should want that in your scenario.I have no trouble believing that Maya might be too immature to be able to talk at length about her feelings or realize the importance of doing so, but apart from case 3-1 which is long in the past, everything we see from Phoenix in the games indicates a very level-headed and mature personality that would nip a scenario like this one in the bud. Remember, Phoenix knows how to get people talking about stuff they'd rather keep hidden...
The problem is that the two of them having sex makes the dissonance between Phoenix's established character and his portrayal here much, much more glaring. Phoenix isn't the type to bottle up his feelings and forget about them, or block out and repress uncomfortable issues that nevertheless need to be answered. Again, I find it plausible enough that a drunkenly aggressive Maya could entice him into a sexual encounter, but the idea that Phoenix would not feel the need to talk about it afterwards is ludicrous. He would want to know what it meant, what Maya thought about it and how it will change their relationship, and Maya's impending return to Kurain would be on his mind, too. Kind of a melancholy "that was... wow... but I'm going to lose her soon" feeling. Again, Phoenix would not dismiss that unless he sees Maya leaving as an inevitability, but how could he, since they haven't talked about it at all?
(Please don't be intimidated or worse, offended or discouraged, at my aggressive argumentation. I, too, try to give my best in discussions, and if I didn't back up my criticism with arguments, it would hardly be more than a flame, would it? I think believability is one of the most important things a story should have, and to me, Phoenix's character isn't believable here. If you find it hard to argue against the points I raised (not finding any contradictions), that might indicate that you could have spend a little more time thinking your premise through or put more effort into making sure the characters act in a way that makes sense for them. But even so, don't take my words to heart too much - they represent only a single opinion, after all. You have many fans here who have nothing but praise for your work.)
If you have a different view of the characters or events, do tell - I'm willing to let a different viewpoint stand. I might challenge it, but if you say 'my opinion is not going to change', well, that's that. Either way, I enjoy discussing story details like this. It should all be in good fun. If you think it's unfair that you have to defend your story like this, feel free to read mine and search for flaws to point out...
Quizer
Ultra Course - A Phoenix/Maya fanfiction by Quizer
Quizer's fanfiction thread - Last update: Inconclusive Evidence Part 1/3 (Jan 07, 2008)
Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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Quizer wrote:
[...]
It seemed to be pretty well established that Maya and Phoenix were somewhat drunk, so this made any deviation of IC inhibitions more plausible in this scene. Also, though I would not have personally conceived them sleeping in the same bed right away after 3-5, in the scenario where this did occur, the natural progression of events might accelerate.
Also, Phoenix may be a competent attorney, but not competent in terms of romantic relationships and associated feelings. Look at his case history. Um, 3-1? And I get the sense that the trauma made him put that kind of thing on the backburner since then. Also, Maya is something that turns him irrational and subverts his logical lawyer reasoning. That much is pretty much canon.
I will agree the last scene was more generic than it could have been, but they were not OOC given the circumstance. It would have benefited from a little more insight into their mental feelings toward each other (and made it seem more IC), but I suppose it would have been difficult to write them in.
As to unnecessary drama, if 3-5 had been left as the ending for those characters, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, no more drama should be thrown on those characters. However, the GS4 game drops a bombshell of totally canon earth-shifting drama on the relationship of those two. Any fic which doesn't ignore GS4 as some kind of AU has to deal with this and by necessity an element of drama has come to the couple. [Part of the reason your 'Ultra Course' fic is so good, apart from the fact of the impeccable quality of writing and ICness, is that it's really just the totally logical extension of the characters' relationship we all saw and wanted after 3-5, had it been left as the ending.]
Maya wrote:
Anyways, I really feel annoyed that I had to explain myself, but now I'm doubting myself, does everyone else understand the kind of story I'm trying to portray?
Um.. well not having read the whole fic I can't be sure, but I'll hazard a guess.
Well, things have progressed this far [those two have always both been a bit clueless, haven't they.] They have not explicitly admitted their 'feelings' in any formal 'I love you, romantically ' confession sense in this scenario, and it could indeed occur this way from the games - their attachment is intense by their very actions, but not so much by their words to each other .
So, this is the 'one last night' thing - Maya is leaving tomorrow! This throws a probably unpredicted extra element to their relationship just in time for this event. And of course, Phoenix is about to get disbarred. So, unfortunately they don't get their cute sunset ending much as we may have preferred. But something undeniable has just been established between them (at the last minute - ah drama.). And the life situation is going to be wreaking havoc [By the way, is this story AU to your previous fic here?]which, sadly, is how things could well go down if they didn't get to resolve their relationship status in the short 2 months after 3-5. Maya's lingering trauma over the Misty Fey thing (it's got to affect her) and Phoenix's disbarring = could have handled if together, maybe not if they were forced apart, especially if the relationship is at such an 'interesting' status. Of course, maybe they will better quantify it in the next chapter, or maybe they won't.]
BTW, how much were they expecting this type of thing to occur at this time?
It does have a happy ending, right?
LOL parody sig trend. Phoenix/Maya Day is Sept 5!
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Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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And in my opinion about
personality, I'd say he was drunk; so that slightly efected the way he thinks and most likely after (maybe in the next chapter?) He will think about things more - due to the fact he won't be so drunk :PAlso though Phoenix doesn't seem impulsive; look what he did for Maya in T&T last case
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Re: Both Broken, Caught in a Moment~~ (Phoenix/Maya)
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icer wrote:
It seemed to be pretty well established that Maya and Phoenix were somewhat drunk, so this made any deviation of IC inhibitions more plausible in this scene. Also, though I would not have personally conceived them sleeping in the same bed right away after 3-5, in the scenario where this did occur, the natural progression of events might accelerate.
Phoenix was drunk, too? Guess I should read more carefully. Still, I'd wager Phoenix can hold his liquor, and more importantly, can gauge his state of inebriation well enough to know when to stop. I'll have to read the chapter again to see whether he was depressed enough to want to get really drunk, but barring that, there's no way he's had as much as Maya.(EDIT: Phoenix doesn't appear to drink as much as Maya, and there's no indication that he was willfully trying to get drunk the way Maya did. Factor in the difference in body mass and Phoenix should still have pretty good control over all his faculties.)
The sleeping in the same bed was a nice touch, I thought, but that was almost platonic, wasn't it? Romantic undertones maybe, but even if you take this into account, Phoenix and Maya getting it on still came out of nowhere.
icer wrote:
Also, Phoenix may be a competent attorney, but not competent in terms of romantic relationships and associated feelings. Look at his case history. Um, 3-1? And I get the sense that the trauma made him put that kind of thing on the backburner since then. Also, Maya is something that turns him irrational and subverts his logical lawyer reasoning. That much is pretty much canon.
Like I said, 3-1 was a long time ago, six years to be exact, and Phoenix is no longer that bumbling, naive fool - far from it, in fact. It's not just the romance, it's maturity and life experience with all that entails. I'll buy the backburner thing - Phoenix being wary of romance after Dahlia makes sense. I never argued that Phoenix was experienced in romantic matters.But I believe that even if he avoids romance like the plague, it's a different story when it hits him in the face, and that this applies here can't be denied after they slept with each other. I think that Phoenix doesn't need experience. He has excellent communication skills, and he has a brain to think situations through with and to reason out what to do or talk about next. Both communication and reasoning abilities are skills he has exercised for many years, and we can see his proficiency in his trials over and over. He applies these core skills to every aspect of his life, so there's no reason he would suddenly forget here. The absence of these traits which are a central part of Phoenix's personality is too much to ask to excuse.
(By that bit about Maya turning him irrational, I assume you mean things like Phoenix trying to cross the bridge. Actually, I don't think Phoenix was irrational there. I believe if someone asked him about that, he could recount his thoughts in that moment in detail, they still make perfect sense to him now after the fact, and he would act that way again in a similar scenario (though taking his newly gained experience into account - he would probably not try to cross that same burning bridge again). Even though it was an extremely reckless thing to do, I believe his mind was clear and he was fully aware of what he was doing. Even if you still call this irrationality, it's not the same as the oblivious stupidity Phoenix displays here, and should not be equated.)
But let's leave character analysis alone for now and look at it from a storybuilding standpoint. The real problem is not how Phoenix acts (or doesn't act) in this scene. The problem is that Phoenix and Maya don't talk. At all. They joke, but they don't talk about serious (in the sense of 'not playful') or important matters. There are a few lines, but that's all - Phoenix complimenting Maya and getting brushed off with extreme prejudice (that's actually pretty interesting - haven't seen that done before. You gotta admire Phoenix's poise...), and Phoenix asking her at about her departure at the end of chapter 1. In chapter two, we have no earnest conversation at all.
The reason is clear. The plot falls apart the moment the moment they start talking about hot topics like Maya's return to Kurain or how they feel about each other. Presumbably, Lex Lexa (I'll call her by her FFnet penname to avoid confusion) already has an ending mapped out and a rough or even detailed route to get there. Maya and Phoenix talking earnestly is likely in there somewhere, but not until sometime after this sex scene and their separation. For those plans to remain viable, Phoenix and Maya can't discuss those issues, so they have to act oblivious and willfully ignore any opportunities that come along - they get to carry Idiot Balls throughout a significant portion of the story.
It would work if there were no opportunities, but good luck making that work for this story. If the issue is something the readers approve of or don't mind, then to make it plausible you'll only have to show it's possible. But since the problem is something the readers won't like, to make it convincing, you'd not only have to show it's possible for them not to have been able to talk - instead you'd have to convince us that it is inevitable.
(Remember, it's not just the opportunities we see presented in the story (end of chapter 1, but most importantly after the sex scene), but also those that happen before chapter 1 - those that are never shown, but nevertheless have to exist. They've slept in the same bed for what, six months? You'd be hard pressed to find a more intimate setting that fosters trust and encourages raising hard-to-talk-about issues or questions. Look at 'Ultra Course' to see what breadth of topics can be discussed in
The problem with prioritizing the plot over the characters is that it insults the characters, and by extension the readers who don't like to see their favorite character act like an idiot for no good reason. Personally, the characters Phoenix and Maya are much more important to me than any random fanfic plot. I want to see them shown with the things I like about them and the things that are true about them, so that their portrayal rings true, and any type of plot comes after that. There may be character growth and development, but getting the base from which that starts right is far more important than the end result of that growth - without that crucial fundament, it collapses in on itself.
Spoiler: "Rant - Writing philosophy"
Time to get back on topic - let's look at some 'evidence', or rather, some passages/lines that caught my attention on my second read-through:
In chapter 1, Maya says: "Why do you keep asking that?", so Phoenix did actually ask before about her return. But for some reason, we are not told what happened to the earlier attempts. Here they forget about it after Phoenix says something humorous, but what about those other times? What exactly did Phoenix ask? Did Maya refuse to talk about it? Why did Phoenix not press her? (
, anyone?)Chapter 1 wrote:
[...] at the same time he felt sick to his stomach, completely nervous. Everything seemed to be going at a million miles an hour, one minute they were talking the next he had completely fallen into this. As he ran his hand up her thigh, he felt his cheeks burning it had been a while since a girl had made him so unsure of himself; he wanted nothing to ruin this.
Alright, let me get this straight: Phoenix is nervous, but he is so worried about ruining the possibility of getting laid by Maya that he doesn't stop to talk about it?! 
I'm sorry, but I don't really see why he is nervous here. When you share your first kiss with someone, that's usually when the nervousness takes an extended leave of absence to make room for joy and giddy feelings and things like that, no? Phoenix sucks at romance, granted, but he doesn't suck at common sense. When you kiss someone and they show every indication of enjoying it, that's usually a huge hint in the direction of "YES, she really likes me!"
So it can't be that. But then, what else is there to be worried about? Is he actually worried about Maya being drunk and not knowing what she is doing? I don't think so, since Phoenix doesn't seem to have any misgivings later on when he initiates the encounter by starting to undress Maya. So it can't be this either.
Whatever the reason for his nervousness, if things are going to fast for Phoenix, there is no one stopping him from slowing things down or clearing things up by talking - except himself. It's not even hard to do it in a way that keeps Maya from interpreting it as rejection - let's leave that old 'Withdrawal Means Rejection' cliché buried like the dead horse it is.
But whatever the cause for his nervousness, it's obviously not strong enough that he feels the need to do anything about it. So maybe I should just forget about that pointless bit.
Chapter 2 wrote:
Maya had known for a long time that Phoenix had wanted this and there was no denying that she had too.
Here's another confusing piece. Maya knew that Phoenix was in love with her? Then why the hell is she conflicted about returning to Kurain Village and feels unable to talk to Phoenix about it? If the first half of that quote is true, then Maya's behavior in the entire story makes no sense at all. And here I thought Maya was the one who denied her feelings and couldn't get her priorities straight... (Also, if she knew, why had she never started anything with him before? There was an opportunity every single night!)I'll make it extremely obvious: If Maya knows Nick loves her, then she is forced to consider 'Do I love him in return?'
-> If she answers that 'yes', then she doesn't have to feel conflicted about talking to Phoenix about her return to Kurain. She might be to shy to outright tell him that she loves him, but she would trust him enough to talk about difficult things, and she would be on the lookout for opportunities to let him know with deeds that she loves him if she can't tell him with words. You know that state of mind when the person you love is near and you watch them, analyzing every small gesture, every word, every change of facial expression, to look for hints whether they might love you back? Or when they happen to move close to you or touch you by accident, you are intensely aware of it, but don't move away?
If Maya already knew that Phoenix loved her, it would give her the confidence to try to prompt such scenarios - accidental touches that aren't so accidental after all, or other things and small gestures that would hint her feelings without needing to come out and say it. Nature would take its course from there in small steps of increasing confirmation for both of them. With Maya sleeping in Phoenix's bed every night, this state persisting for 'a long time' is an impossibility.
-> (In the hypothetical scenario that she answers herself 'no, I don't love him', going back to Kurain is her ticket away from the awkwardness of being around someone whose love you can't return, so Maya would not have to feel conflicted about going back either.)
icer wrote:
I will agree the last scene was more generic than it could have been, but they were not OOC given the circumstance. It would have benefited from a little more insight into their mental feelings toward each other (and made it seem more IC), but I suppose it would have been difficult to write them in.
I agree. The scene was a bit generic, but it's not badly written - we're not talking IKEA Erotica here. But more insight into the main characters' states of mind throughout the story would have been useful. The conversations that I keep saying could/should have been there would have helped in that regard, but narration could be used for that as well. Most of my above theories about the feelings and deeper motivation of characters in this story are informed guesses, extrapolated with what I know/believe about their personalities, but since guesswork and interpretation are all we have to go on, I might be off here or there.@Lex Lexa
If any of my assumptions are wrong, please do enlighten me. As the author, you should be able to say what you imagined this or that character to be thinking and feeling during the various scenes/events. However, if it's something that would spoil future chapters, don't let me pressure you - in that case, we'll just have to be patient. :)
icer wrote:
As to unnecessary drama, if 3-5 had been left as the ending for those characters, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly, no more drama should be thrown on those characters. However, the GS4 game drops a bombshell of totally canon earth-shifting drama on the relationship of those two. Any fic which doesn't ignore GS4 as some kind of AU has to deal with this and by necessity an element of drama has come to the couple. [Part of the reason your 'Ultra Course' fic is so good, apart from the fact of the impeccable quality of writing and ICness, is that it's really just the totally logical extension of the characters' relationship we all saw and wanted after 3-5, had it been left as the ending.]
Yes, but that bombshell has not arrived yet. As long as it hasn't happened yet, it has no bearing on Phoenix and Maya's interaction and all the points I raised are still valid. The drama I'm talking about has nothing to do with the disbarment.(Incidentally, I'm currently playing through case 4-4, so I'll finish playing Apollo Justice relatively soon, and then we can talk about the extended timeline. When I wrote my two stories, I didn't know and didn't want to know the details about the game - hearing about Phoenix's disbarment was already enough. Him being cheated out of the brilliant future he has ahead of him at the end of T&T is not right.
But it turns out my stories are both set before April 29, the fateful date. 'Ultra Course' is a mere week after 3-5, and 'Inconclusive Evidence' happens on April 7 - still more than two weeks to go before even the murder happens. The events of either story are enough to render the canon timeline invalid, anyway - with Maya or Mia (or both) accompanying him, the chance that he will step into that trap and present THAT piece of evidence drops significantly. Or that's how I will play it, at any rate, in the event that I write a sequel that is set after that date.)
(Or I might go on ignoring AA4 as AU, but I already have that neat bit of inadvertent foreshadowing in 'Ultra Course' where Maya says 'I want to be ready for the time when being your trusty sidekick might not cut it anymore.'. I didn't actually know about AJ when I wrote that, but in retrospect, it seems quite signficant... Hm... I'll decide when and if I actually do decide to write a sequel.)
icer wrote:
They have not explicitly admitted their 'feelings' in any formal 'I love you, romantically ' confession sense in this scenario, and it could indeed occur this way from the games - their attachment is intense by their very actions, but not so much by their words to each other.
That is true - their actions talk louder than their words (again, the crazy things Phoenix does when she is in danger is a good example), but they do tease each other a lot with words, too, which is just as valid a show of affection. It also shows they really are well-suited for each other - they play well off each other and their banter is sophisticated and witty. Like I said, I think it's an integral part to their relationship.Quote:
So, this is the 'one last night' thing - Maya is leaving tomorrow! This throws a probably unpredicted extra element to their relationship just in time for this event. And of course, Phoenix is about to get disbarred. So, unfortunately they don't get their cute sunset ending much as we may have preferred. But something undeniable has just been established between them (at the last minute - ah drama.). And the life situation is going to be wreaking havoc [By the way, is this story AU to your previous fic here?]which, sadly, is how things could well go down if they didn't get to resolve their relationship status in the short 2 months after 3-5. Maya's lingering trauma over the Misty Fey thing (it's got to affect her) and Phoenix's disbarring = could have handled if together, maybe not if they were forced apart, especially if the relationship is at such an 'interesting' status. Of course, maybe they will better quantify it in the next chapter, or maybe they won't.
So do we have any information on when exactly this story is set? If April 29 is about to happen, that means they've been sharing the bed since before the Mask*DeMasque case. 
Hmm, I wonder whether that is viable... But you can always go AU and move the disbarment back or don't have it happen at all. Whatever floats your boat. 
Quizer
Ultra Course - A Phoenix/Maya fanfiction by Quizer
Quizer's fanfiction thread - Last update: Inconclusive Evidence Part 1/3 (Jan 07, 2008)
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