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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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I loved this game.

I love how they fleshed out Apollo's character more and gave him some background. I honestly like Athena; while I wouldn't say she's one of my favorite characters, she still got a few laughs out of me. I thought the stories were pretty good, especially the last one.
Most of the issues above didn't really bother me. I did think that Pearl's cameo was a barrel of wasted potential, and Trucy felt kind of pointless as well, and some of these motives were kind of flimsy, but that didn't hinder my enjoyment of the game. I didn't think that Athena was overshadowing anything, either. They explained her backstory and I was fine with it. (But a lawyer at age 18 when not spending your entire life on it? That's really pushing it, Capcom.)

The game itself looks amazing. I love all the new areas that were introduced. The music was pretty good...but I think it was kind of...lacking? Granted, it fit the mood well, but I just didn't feel the power behind the songs like I did in the previous games. So I was disappointed there.

I was also disappointed in the lack of areas to examine. The game was also riddled with typos, which really bugged me. And the voice acting...I didn't like it. At all. I could barely distinguish Apollo's Objection from Nick's, and their voices jsut didn't seem to fit them. Athena's voice fits her, though.

The best part was near the end of the cases where you pieced together everything in your head with beautiful effects and great music. It caught me totally off-guard but I LOVED it.

While it did have its problems, Dual Destinies was simply great. In fact, I think I might go replay a case...
...What is this "normal" you speak of? It sounds dangerous.
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Just notice this topic. -w-;

I like the game so far, currently at the beginning of Case 3 of the game.
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Completed the game.
Tbh, I really liked it. I feel like Athena is a great character that got a lot of development for a first game. But it was done in a good way. I feel like Pearl/Trucy/Klavier really did play their parts well, even if they were rather small.
Trucy felt a little flanderized though, because she talked about her magic. A lot more than usual.
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FenrirDarkWolf wrote:
I feel like Pearl/Trucy/Klavier really did play their parts well, even if they were rather small.
Trucy felt a little flanderized though, because she talked about her magic. A lot more than usual.

I agree. I feel that Trucy, Klavier, and Pearl's roles were so small! And those were the ones I was most interested in, honestly. It was really dissapointing; especially Klavier and Trucy's roles.
Other than that, the game doesn't have too many complaints by me (other than the spelling/grammar issues, oh boy...)
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Just beat it. Case by case (major spoilers for each)

Spoiler: Case One
Not bad. It's not as good as 3-1, 4-1, or AAI2-1, but it's complex enough and it's related to the plot enough to have merit. Still, it was pretty ridiculous in the beginning. So, the case is supposed to be headed by Apollo, then is taken over by Athena, only to ultimately be taken over by Wright. This was probably the start of the biggest problem of the game: a lack of focus. We have three main characters here, which divides the attention and development up too much. 4-1>3-1>AAI2-1>5-1>AAI-1>2-1>1-1


Spoiler: Case Two
Okay, but not really that good. Not bad either. I found this case a bit like a not-as-good 2-2. Japanese inspired village, where someone is killed in a locked room, supposedly by some supernatural means. Maybe it was just me? Also, AGAIN we get the flying person plot device. What is that, the fourth or fifth time I've had to figure out how someone "flew"? It's getting a bit tiring, honestly. It didn't help that they revealed the murderer in the opening cutscene (though I guess it was pretty obvious). Still, a decent mystery (of how and why, not so much who) and a few good new characters, as well as a cool twist.3-2>2-2>AAI-2>AAI2-2>5-2>1-2


Spoiler: Case Three
A really great case. Besides the cringe-worthy cutscenes and the face-palming talk of friendship, just a great mystery and great characters. Didn't see the twists coming; Robin being a girl and Hugh being 25. I kinda expected Means to be the murderer, but it was still pretty cool to figure out how he did it. And seeing the parallels between the murder and the mock trial created an interesting dynamic. A new favorite of mine. 5-3>1-3>AAI-3>3-3>4-3>2-3


Spoiler: Case Four
Uuuh, is it fair to judge this one alone? I mean, it's not even that it was bad; it was just incomplete without the fifth case. I kinda consider the two just one long case, so it's hard to guage how I liked this one...I reeeaaally didn't like Starbuck; one of the most annoying defendants in my opinion. Still, it had a unique setting, and a good twist at the end, and it was a nice set up for the final case. 2-4>1-4>4-4>3-4>AAI-4>5-4 (disclaimer: just because it's at the bottom of the list doesn't make it bad; case fours make for tough competition.


Spoiler: Case Five
I think I've figured out my problem with Eshiro's writing: He likes going big. Like, maybe a bit TOO big. International spies? Space? Frikkin' robots?! This is a bit outlandish, even for Ace Attorney standards. Think back to the first four games. They were ridiculous, but they were fairly grounded in some sort of reality; at least one they established themselves. They adhered to their own logic. But this case kinda breaks that with the "last boss". Now the villain is Tom Cruise from Mission Impossible? I dunno...The mask thing just didn't sit right with me. Still, there's plenty positive to say. Athena's Cyke's past was nice (albeit very similar to 1-4/1-5, as mentioned before), and Apollo got some much needed development. And, love him or hate him, the last boss was certainly very unique, as well as unexpected. The mystery itself was interesting, though a bit over-drawn in the three-four hour trial (what was with the pacing in those last two cases?) Also, why wasn't the tape from the case ever rewound to 2:00 before? Seriously, are the police that incompetant? Seeing that man in that tape should've been more than enough to dissuade suspicion from Blackquill. 3-5>1-5>5-5>AAI-5


Overall? Good, but not great. The lack of focus, topped with being too linear even for AA standards, as well as flip-flopping between AA4 Wright and AA3 Wright too much (last two cases he's pretty much AA3 Wright, while first three he's definitely AA4 Wright), and too brief of a role for important characters besides Wright and Apollo (Klavier, Trucy, Pearls, and Edgeworth were hardly even present) hold it back, but the mysteries are still great, the new characters are intriguing, the music is top-notch, the presentation and production values are better than ever (though the voice-acting and dialogue in cutscenes leave a lot to be desired), and just in general, the game scratched my Ace Attorney itch well enough. It's a bit disappointing, but nowhere near a disaster, and I see it as a worthy addition to the series.

Also...

Spoiler: Massive 5-5 spoilers involving killer
We never see his face, so it's up to debate who he is. Let's see...Professor Layton is now technically in the same universe as Ace Attorney with the cross-over. And Don Palo uses masks to disguise himself. So...the phantom is...
...
...
...Wait, where was I going with this?


Spoiler: Slight 5-5 spoilers, major 4-4 spoilers
Black-psyche locks brought back for the last case? Could this possibly mean that in the next game we'll finally break Kristoph's locks? Hmmm...Could be an interesting way to tie in different plotlines.


(A side note, but has anyone else noticed how much they like to use the word "assert" or some form of that word? Seriously, they must've used it like a dozen times in the game)
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Allie_Fey wrote:
i actually really liked Athena. It was really refreshing to have a new face and her take no shit attitude is funny in itself

I get the feeling we're both in the minority there.

Huh? That's funny. Even in this particular thread, I find the majority do like Athena. In what minority are you talking about?

Quote:
So it's the simple amount of time Athena spends interacting with players, instead?

Deja vu. I swear I made a statement on what this one is pretty much talking about: "Victim of over-creation" in a short span of time. It's that she hasn't gained enough time in the audience's eyes for all that she already has.

Quote:
It was pretty clear from the start who was going to be the center of attention this time around, along with the whole mysterious convicted prosecutor thing.

Oh, you mean the mysterious convict prosecutor that was shown in the first trailer? Oh yeah, he was definitely the center of the plot of this game. That girl was just a random new sidekick role that not as many people cared about.

...Basically, it wasn't that clear. People were taken unaware of Athena's significance, and it came to nip their behinds. Is that why people are acting so butthurt...? (`ω´°)ノシ
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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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It's true. People who dislike Athena are mostly in a vocal minority. There's reason to be critical of her, but despite of it I think she's very likable too.

Flying walrus wrote:
Spoiler: Case Five
I think I've figured out my problem with Eshiro's writing: He likes going big. Like, maybe a bit TOO big. International spies? Space? Frikkin' robots?! This is a bit outlandish, even for Ace Attorney standards. Think back to the first four games. They were ridiculous, but they were fairly grounded in some sort of reality; at least one they established themselves. They adhered to their own logic. But this case kinda breaks that with the "last boss". Now the villain is Tom Cruise from Mission Impossible? I dunno...The mask thing just didn't sit right with me. Still, there's plenty positive to say. Athena's Cyke's past was nice (albeit very similar to 1-4/1-5, as mentioned before), and Apollo got some much needed development. And, love him or hate him, the last boss was certainly very unique, as well as unexpected. The mystery itself was interesting, though a bit over-drawn in the three-four hour trial (what was with the pacing in those last two cases?) Also, why wasn't the tape from the case ever rewound to 2:00 before? Seriously, are the police that incompetant? Seeing that man in that tape should've been more than enough to dissuade suspicion from Blackquill. 3-5>1-5>5-5>AAI-5

Correction. Motohide Eshiro is not a writer. I believe he's overseeing the development process and has a say in what goes and what doesn't story-wise, but the guy actually writing and coming up with the ideas is Mr. Takeshi Yamazaki. But as you say, he does indeed like to go big and have stated in multiple interviews that the way he usually comes up with cases is "I think of a twist, some sort of big impactual moment to surprise the player and baffle them, and then I try to work my way logically up to that point"

Makes for good mysteries, elaborate crimes, shocking twists and occasionally suspend-disbelief-killers. I would like it if he keeps his international crime-fiction inspirations out of it though.
Spoiler:
I disliked the smuggling plot in AAI, and I dislike the Spy for the government thing as well.
It's just not the reason I got into these games. I like the personal intrigues better, and bonus points are given when the killer has a personal relationship to someone in the main cast as well. I honestly feel a bit indifferent about DD's mastermind.
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linkenski wrote:
It's true. People who dislike Athena are mostly in a vocal minority. There's reason to be critical of her, but despite of it I think she's very likable too.

Flying walrus wrote:
Spoiler: Case Five
I think I've figured out my problem with Eshiro's writing: He likes going big. Like, maybe a bit TOO big. International spies? Space? Frikkin' robots?! This is a bit outlandish, even for Ace Attorney standards. Think back to the first four games. They were ridiculous, but they were fairly grounded in some sort of reality; at least one they established themselves. They adhered to their own logic. But this case kinda breaks that with the "last boss". Now the villain is Tom Cruise from Mission Impossible? I dunno...The mask thing just didn't sit right with me. Still, there's plenty positive to say. Athena's Cyke's past was nice (albeit very similar to 1-4/1-5, as mentioned before), and Apollo got some much needed development. And, love him or hate him, the last boss was certainly very unique, as well as unexpected. The mystery itself was interesting, though a bit over-drawn in the three-four hour trial (what was with the pacing in those last two cases?) Also, why wasn't the tape from the case ever rewound to 2:00 before? Seriously, are the police that incompetant? Seeing that man in that tape should've been more than enough to dissuade suspicion from Blackquill. 3-5>1-5>5-5>AAI-5

Correction. Motohide Eshiro is not a writer. I believe he's overseeing the development process and has a say in what goes and what doesn't story-wise, but the guy actually writing and coming up with the ideas is Mr. Takeshi Yamazaki. But as you say, he does indeed like to go big and have stated in multiple interviews that the way he usually comes up with cases is "I think of a twist, some sort of big impactual moment to surprise the player and baffle them, and then I try to work my way logically up to that point"

Makes for good mysteries, elaborate crimes, shocking twists and occasionally suspend-disbelief-killers. I would like it if he keeps his international crime-fiction inspirations out of it though.
Spoiler:
I disliked the smuggling plot in AAI, and I dislike the Spy for the government thing as well.
It's just not the reason I got into these games. I like the personal intrigues better, and bonus points are given when the killer has a personal relationship to someone in the main cast as well. I honestly feel a bit indifferent about DD's mastermind.


Oh, whoops. My bad. Yeah, in general, the stories aren't really personal enough. Things have escalated from a straightforward apartment homicide to
Spoiler:
international space espionage intrigue.
A bit too much of an escalation, if you ask me. And the villains, since AAI (ignoring AAI2, since I haven't gotten past the first two cases in that), have been motivated pretty much exclusively by greed, making them pretty uninteresting and dull.

Another thing...

Spoiler: Massive 5-5 Spoilers
Did they ever explain why the Phantom had to pin the crime on Athena? Starbuck was about to be convicted when he brought the lighter in, and the lighter is the exact thing that ultimately made him out to be guilty. Why didn't he just let Starbuck get convicted? Why did Athena HAVE to be the guilty party?
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Oh wow I've missed a lot

TheBlarghMan wrote:
Fair enough. I personally don't find introducing an entirely new story to be a problem whatsoever, but your reasoning is consistent. That said, Kay Faraday works perfectly as a counter example. Comes out of nowhere, and while she doesn't occupy as much screen time as Athena, she takes up a much greater percentage of the focus in terms of expounding on her character. I think she's the only one who undergoes any significant character development in that game at all.

Would you say Athena is worse than her?

Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.

(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)

TheBlarghMan wrote:
Sure, there are other sidekicks they could have brought back, but the game at the very least needs Athena to exist in order to have the entire backstory for Blackquill work. I think everyone can agree that Athena would have to be there for DD's plot to work.

Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works :basil:

(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)
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Bad Player wrote:
Oh wow I've missed a lot

TheBlarghMan wrote:
Fair enough. I personally don't find introducing an entirely new story to be a problem whatsoever, but your reasoning is consistent. That said, Kay Faraday works perfectly as a counter example. Comes out of nowhere, and while she doesn't occupy as much screen time as Athena, she takes up a much greater percentage of the focus in terms of expounding on her character. I think she's the only one who undergoes any significant character development in that game at all.

Would you say Athena is worse than her?

Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.

(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)

TheBlarghMan wrote:
Sure, there are other sidekicks they could have brought back, but the game at the very least needs Athena to exist in order to have the entire backstory for Blackquill work. I think everyone can agree that Athena would have to be there for DD's plot to work.

Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works :basil:

(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)

While I can certainly understand how that makes Athena different, I don't really see how that makes her a worse character. Although I would disagree on Kay acting like a normal teenage girl...I haven't met anyone with a personality remotely similar to hers, male or female.

I will say that I honestly can appreciate Athena having no real connection to Phoenix ahead of time. The Investigations series (in particular GK2) has always been too convenient for my tastes. Edgeworth just happens to run into 4 cases on back to back to back to back days that all involve the same smuggling incident. And in GK2, Edgeworth

Spoiler:
...also just happens to run into every single major player in the President's assassination scheme all in the span of a a week. (And granted, Sota was masterminding everything, but the idea that he just happens to resolve the IS-7 incident that just happens to relate back to Sota's childhood while Sota is planning everything out was just way too convenient


So to that end, I appreciated DD for how everything wasn't all related to each other, Athena included. That's not to say Kay being related to Edgeworth makes her worse off, but I think if Dual Destinies had followed suit here with Athena, it would have been a little too convenient as well.

...I'm not entirely sure how you can separate the mysteries from the plot. The mysteries make up the plot, so to speak.

Spoiler:
Certainly, a prosecutor taking the fall for a young girl isn't exactly new, but it did enough different to click for me. Blackquill likely took the fall for Athena, believing that she had killed her own mother, and probably only learned once he had been incarcerated that someone else was really responsible. But by that point, it was too late. Later, that same person tries to destroy the last possible piece of implicating evidence, and Blackquill is forced to compromise between an all out pursuit of the Phantom and keeping the blame off Athena. I think it works really well, even if it isn't the most original of tales.


But, then again, that's opinion. Sorry to hear you didn't like it.


Quote:
Spoiler: Massive 5-5 Spoilers
Did they ever explain why the Phantom had to pin the crime on Athena? Starbuck was about to be convicted when he brought the lighter in, and the lighter is the exact thing that ultimately made him out to be guilty. Why didn't he just let Starbuck get convicted? Why did Athena HAVE to be the guilty party?


Spoiler:
Starbuck really wasn't about to be convicted. Blackquill had brought up a point at the time that likely would have extended the trial for another day, worst case scenario. The Phantom probably brought in the lighter at first hoping to just have the trial end so the investigation of the Space Station would stop, and his previous crimes would be ignored. That said, the Phantom was probably smart enough to realize how much Blackquill cared for Athena, and so in the worst case scenario that Blackquill did demand to see who's fingerprints they were, he would simply have Athena accused. Blackquill would then have to toe a careful line between trying to prove his innocence and keeping Athena safe, because no one would have believed anything he said about the Phantom at that point. The Phantom went with Athena in order to tie his hands, so to speak.

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Last edited by TheBlarghMan on Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
And I'm not entirely sure how you can separate the mysteries from the plot. The mysteries make up the plot, so to speak.

Eeeeh, it depends. There are certain cases where they're inexplicably entwined, and certain cases where they are easily separable.

For instance, 1-4 (although not DL-6) is "easily separable": the story is about Nick saving Edgey, Edgey coming to terms with his past, and Yanni/Manfred taking revenge for the past. You could make the mystery literally anything, as long as it involved Yanni pinning the murder of Hammond on Edgey, and the story would be unchanged.

An example of the plot and mystery being closely connected is 2-2: both hinge on the whole Fey clan/spirit channeling business and "Ini's" past.
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
And I'm not entirely sure how you can separate the mysteries from the plot. The mysteries make up the plot, so to speak.

Eeeeh, it depends. There are certain cases where they're inexplicably entwined, and certain cases where they are easily separable.

For instance, 1-4 (although not DL-6) is "easily separable": the story is about Nick saving Edgey, Edgey coming to terms with his past, and Yanni/Manfred taking revenge for the past. You could make the mystery literally anything, as long as it involved Yanni pinning the murder of Hammond on Edgey, and the story would be unchanged.

Those are some aspects of the story, sure, but there's also Von Karma's quest for revenge against Gregory and Miles, and the mystery of him ordering Edgeworth framed and Hammond killed. You'd be hard pressed to take that part of the mystery, change that into whatever you wanted, and still have the same case. You wouldn't even have the same culprit.
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I think that's all part of the "plot" rather than the "mystery" :P

Also, like I said, DL-6 does not have an easily-separated plot and mystery.
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Bad Player wrote:
I think that's all part of the "plot" rather than the "mystery" :P

Also, like I said, DL-6 does not have an easily-separated plot and mystery.

Then what would be a case of an easily separated plot and mystery?
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1-4, excluding DL-6. I just said that, didn't I? xD
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Bad Player wrote:
1-4, excluding DL-6. I just said that, didn't I? xD

I was more thinking along the lines of an actual case. DL-6 is essentially half the mystery (and almost all of the character motivations, for that matter). You can't just remove it from 1-4 since 1-4 is so based around DL-6 to begin with.
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Okay, how about 2-4? The important thing is Maya's kidnapping and the love quadrangle between Matt, Corrida, Adrian, and Celeste. As long as Matt and then Adrian are suspected, the details of the murder don't matter much beyond that.
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Bad Player wrote:
Okay, how about 2-4? The important thing is Maya's kidnapping and the love quadrangle between Matt, Corrida, Adrian, and Celeste. As long as Matt and then Adrian are suspected, the details of the murder don't matter much beyond that.

Once again, I think that underestimates a lot of the mystery. Arguably the biggest mystery in the entirety of FMT is discovering for yourself that Engarde is really guilty, and without that, the entire case's plot changes drastically. There's also Edgeworth revealing the reasoning behind Adrian's co-dependency (which isn't as big, but still important).

I honestly don't think there's a case where you can simply say that the mysteries are disconnected enough from the story that you could just remove all mystery and still have the same basic plot. That's pretty much going to be true for any mystery solving game. 2-4 is probably as close as you'll get, since the motivation for murder is nothing more than a "well, he was my rival and he was going to hurt my PR with his speech," but it's difficult to make a case there, either.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Bad Player wrote:
Okay, how about 2-4? The important thing is Maya's kidnapping and the love quadrangle between Matt, Corrida, Adrian, and Celeste. As long as Matt and then Adrian are suspected, the details of the murder don't matter much beyond that.

Once again, I think that underestimates a lot of the mystery. Arguably the biggest mystery in the entirety of FMT is discovering for yourself that Engarde is really guilty

...wat

how is that not obvious in the first five minutes?

Quote:
I honestly don't think there's a case where you can simply say that the mysteries are disconnected enough from the story that you could just remove all mystery and still have the same basic plot. That's pretty much going to be true for any mystery solving game. 2-4 is probably as close as you'll get, since the motivation for murder is nothing more than a "well, he was my rival and he was going to hurt my PR with his speech," but it's difficult to make a case there, either.

It's about changing the mystery, not removing it. And there are definitely cases where you could change the mystery a great deal while keeping the plot. The mystery will still be constrained in some way to accommodate the plot, but you'll still be able to change it plenty. (Really, it all comes down to the constraints the plot puts on the mystery. I suppose no case is completely free from the plot, but some plots have very strict restrictions, and some don't.)
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Bad Player wrote:
Oh wow I've missed a lot

TheBlarghMan wrote:
Fair enough. I personally don't find introducing an entirely new story to be a problem whatsoever, but your reasoning is consistent. That said, Kay Faraday works perfectly as a counter example. Comes out of nowhere, and while she doesn't occupy as much screen time as Athena, she takes up a much greater percentage of the focus in terms of expounding on her character. I think she's the only one who undergoes any significant character development in that game at all.

Would you say Athena is worse than her?

Nah, I actually like Kay quite a bit. (Mostly because of GK2, actually.) First off, unlike Athena, Kay is pretty much a totally normal, perky teenage girl. Her only unique merit is Little Thief, which is an items, not something inherently unique to her. She also has a relatively small role in both her games; she mostly stands around making quips with Edgeworth and using Little Thief. (While she has a big connection to the plot in the first game, her role is quite small.) She doesn't get introduced until halfway through AAI, the only times she ever really gets "involved" in a case are case 4 of both games, and in both of them she's a completely different person from normal. Also, case 4 of AAI does tie in Kay to Edgeworth and co.; the connection is late in the game, but it's there.

(This is in contrast to Athena, who has a university degree (perhaps two) by the time most people graduate high school, has multiple unique items, a unique (and unexplained) superpower, plays a large role in basically every case, and whose only connection with the old characters is meeting Nick off-screen one time when he was in America/Europe for ambiguous reasons.)

TheBlarghMan wrote:
Sure, there are other sidekicks they could have brought back, but the game at the very least needs Athena to exist in order to have the entire backstory for Blackquill work. I think everyone can agree that Athena would have to be there for DD's plot to work.

Silly BlarghMan, you're implying that DD's plot works :basil:

(The mysteries and characters were great, but the plot was blech. God-awful foreshadowing and copy-pasted from 1-5.)


I think I see what BP's saying.

Spoiler: 5-5 Spoilers
So, here's the PLOT: Athena is accused of a murder that relates a case from seven years ago. In the end, Wright clears both her and Blackquill's names and finds that "Fulbright" is the real phantom, working as a spy. Here's the MYSTERY: How did Athena's prints get on the lighter? Who is the killer? Why? How did the killer go about committing the crime?


Basically, I think BP is trying to say that mechanically, the mystery worked well (i.e., it was interesting to put together the who, how, and why) but the plot is a different matter (the "what" part of it; the actual story). I guess it's like, it was fun to put together the pieces, like a puzzle, but it didn't all combine to make a very good story.

For myself, I actually kinda liked the plot, though I definitely admit it could've been handled much better.
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Yeah, pretty much, I guess.

IMO, the plot of 5-5 is (copy-pasted from the spoiler discussion thread):
Spoiler: Case 5
Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. [Person A] framed the crime on [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D] discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D] insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor [Person D], but actually [Person A].
(Now, the question is: which case am I describing in this tag?)

Also, I actually think the mystery of 5-5 (and 5-4) is the worst one in the game. The big bad was too obvious of a "twist villain," the motive was non-existent, and the main "trick" was underwhelming to me. Plus I had seen it all coming since case two, so it was kinda boring knowing what would happen next the entire time.
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Adrian in black wrote:
AdamW wrote:
Spoiler: Case 3 major spoilers
So, Means kills Courte on the stage after she accuses him of taking bribes...by stabbing her with the awl from the art room, which he had handy on the main stage because why exactly? He was carrying it around on the off-chance he might be able to murder someone with it? Oh, and he had this whole elaborate scheme to cover up the murder prepared ahead of time for some reason? Based on a mock trial script which I don't believe we ever exactly established he had access to, or a motive to read? Where he moves the bloody flag up to the art room...somehow, because the investigation section clearly established that you needed the help of someone in the art room to move stuff, since the only pulley is up there? And then takes an insane amount of risks with a ridiculous plan to deliver a pre-recorded speech to the entire student body while knocking over some statues to fake moving the body or something, and what the hell school ever set things up so that a speech was delivered to the entire student body by someone they can't see?

Maybe I missed something along the way (do point it out if so), but it seems pretty damn ludicrous.


Spoiler:
Wait... did he kill her with the awl? For some reason, I was under the impression he killed her with his staff.


Spoiler:
Ah! No, you're quite right, I'd forgotten that; losing track of all the ridiculous twists. Doesn't help a lot, though - why was everyone so convinced the awl was the murder weapon in that case? The whole thing is just...ehh.


On the bright side I finished cases 4 and 5 last night and rather enjoyed them - there was at least a bit more challenge, and while the story was completely absurd, it was absurd in the right kind of fun, just-plausible-if-you-suspend-your-belief-in-the-right-way way. And funny.
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AdamW wrote:
Spoiler:
Ah! No, you're quite right, I'd forgotten that; losing track of all the ridiculous twists. Doesn't help a lot, though - why was everyone so convinced the awl was the murder weapon in that case? The whole thing is just...ehh.
Spoiler:
The reason they suspected the awl was because it had Courte's blood on it and it was the murder weapon in the mock trial. Given that the wound was widened with the arrow, forensics would've been unable to test if the awl actually matched it.

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My main problem with this game is that it had WAY too much hand holding. "I" wanna figure out on my OWN that the testimony contradicts the photo evidence, not have Athena point out that maybe the 'photo' is relevant to what they just said. I never felt really challenged like I did in the original trilogy or even AJ. Waaaay too much handholding in this one.

Hell even the "he/she" part in 2-4 (Adrian's testimony) went right over my head and it felt awesome when I figured it out. Hopefully the DLC case will be harder.

Case 3 was probably my favourite because of the law school setting and characters, but as someone a few posts above me said, logic completely flies out the window. Especially the prerecorded speech with no one present at the stage.
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poptdp wrote:
Hell even the "he/she" part in 2-4 (Adrian's testimony) went right over my head and it felt awesome when I figured it out. Hopefully the DLC case will be harder.

...It's not :oops:

Everything else about the DLC case is really good imo, though.
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poptdp wrote:
My main problem with this game is that it had WAY too much hand holding. "I" wanna figure out on my OWN that the testimony contradicts the photo evidence, not have Athena point out that maybe the 'photo' is relevant to what they just said. I never felt really challenged like I did in the original trilogy or even AJ. Waaaay too much handholding in this one.

Hell even the "he/she" part in 2-4 (Adrian's testimony) went right over my head and it felt awesome when I figured it out. Hopefully the DLC case will be harder.

Case 3 was probably my favourite because of the law school setting and characters, but as someone a few posts above me said, logic completely flies out the window. Especially the prerecorded speech with no one present at the stage.


Agreed. At times it all felt like "colour-by-numbers".
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Bad Player wrote:
Yeah, pretty much, I guess.

IMO, the plot of 5-5 is (copy-pasted from the spoiler discussion thread):
Spoiler: Case 5
Everything started [X] years ago, when [Person A] murdered [Person B]. [Person A] framed the crime on [Person C], a young girl who was at the scene of the crime. However, [Person D] discovered the scene, and they rearranged it in order to protect [Person C]. In the present, while [Person D] insists on their guilt in order to protect [Person C], Phoenix Wright proves that the murderer was neither [Person C] nor [Person D], but actually [Person A].
(Now, the question is: which case am I describing in this tag?)

Also, I actually think the mystery of 5-5 (and 5-4) is the worst one in the game. The big bad was too obvious of a "twist villain," the motive was non-existent, and the main "trick" was underwhelming to me. Plus I had seen it all coming since case two, so it was kinda boring knowing what would happen next the entire time.

I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.

I guess you can argue what was too obvious where, or what was underwhelming, etc, but I will say that I thought the motive was one of the most intriguing ones in the entire series in the realm of possibilities it opened up. My problem with DD is that it doesn't explain it that well, but I think we can extrapolate the villain's motivation to be something like this:

Spoiler:
At some point in the Phantom's career, he is noticed by the US (likely during a mission that affected the US in some way) for being an operative that is unique in terms of what he's able to accomplish. Someone theorizes that his pension for incredible feats that would seem to defy all self preservations instincts might suggest a very unique mental composition. Thus, in the hopes of learning more about the spy, the government recruits Metis Cykes in order to comprise an emotional profile based on his actions that could lead to identifying the Phantom's emotional set. With this in hand, the government could learn more about how to approach the Phantom in conflict, perhaps a way to exploit some emotion.

The Phantom catches word of this and then proceeds to kill Metis Cykes in order to stop her work. However, he's too late; and the report is sent to the government by the time he commits the murder. Nothing at the space station (outside of the profile) had anything to do with the murder. I highly doubt that the moon rock, or something else, was the real intention of the Phantom's incursion.

Later, Blackquill taunts the Phantom with the psychological profile in some way, causing the Phantom to kill and pose as Bobby Fulbright in order to draw near to Blackquill. When the moon rock returns to Earth, the Phantom once again raids the GYAXA base, threatening Yuri Cosmos. The goal is to retrieve the moon rock, but he fails due to the efforts of Clay Terran and Yuri Cosmos's intervention of sorts. With that plan failed, he probably runs into Ted Tonate and the dead body of Candice Arme at some point before the Starbuck trial, and recruits him to destroy the courtroom (which Tonate goes along with due to needing to a cover up for his murder and the bloody writing on the ground). The moon rock is destroyed, and the Phantom thinks he's finally destroyed the last piece of evidence that could trace anything back to him. Blackquill still pursues the mystery of 7 years ago, however, and in an attempt to stop the last person who could potentially unmask him, the Phantom forges evidence: the fingerprints on the lighter. My guess is the Phantom originally didn't want to reveal who they "were," but adjusted it to Athena Cykes' name in the event someone did ask, because he knew Blackquill was closely connected to Cykes. This would essentially tie Blackquill's hands, since he had no proof of the Phantom even existing at the time, and would force him to either stay silent about the murder of Metis Cykes (which he tried to), or speak up and risk having Athena convicted.


His motivations are incredibly intriguing and make perfect sense with a little thought put into it. I wish that the game had extended Case 5 into a second day and perhaps taken the time to elaborate more, but they could very well be planning to do that in a prequel game of some sort (possibly Investigations 3?).
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BTW, has it been established why the conventions for AA localization are so...odd? I mean, they go to the trouble of making some kind of half-assed justification for the Japanesey-ness of 5-2, but let all sorts of other Japanese-y things go by completely. All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place. So in that case, why bother with all the lame 'in this country!' stuff and the 'oh this town was founded by Japanese immigrants!' and so on? Doesn't really bother me, just seems odd.
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AdamW wrote:
BTW, has it been established why the conventions for AA localization are so...odd? I mean, they go to the trouble of making some kind of half-assed justification for the Japanesey-ness of 5-2, but let all sorts of other Japanese-y things go by completely. All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place. So in that case, why bother with all the lame 'in this country!' stuff and the 'oh this town was founded by Japanese immigrants!' and so on? Doesn't really bother me, just seems odd.


It's confirmed his mentor was a big fan of Japanese culture. Apparently her love of Japanese culture was passed on to him.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.

Eh, I disagree. Taking the same story and swapping the motive (for an extremely flimsy and barely-explained one) is really not different enough imo.

AdamW wrote:
All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place.

Actually, Blackquill doesn't use -dono in the Japanese version IIRC.
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.

Eh, I disagree. Taking the same story and swapping the motive (for an extremely flimsy and barely-explained one) is really not different enough imo.

AdamW wrote:
All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place.

Actually, Blackquill doesn't use -dono in the Japanese version IIRC.


Hah! Really? But then, that only makes it weirder :)
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Pierre wrote:
AdamW wrote:
BTW, has it been established why the conventions for AA localization are so...odd? I mean, they go to the trouble of making some kind of half-assed justification for the Japanesey-ness of 5-2, but let all sorts of other Japanese-y things go by completely. All the stuff about Blackquill's character, and hell, his use of -dono is just passed straight through to the English, presumably with the assumption that the AA audience will both a) understand what it actually means and b) know that AA is a Japanese game and that's why it's there in the first place. So in that case, why bother with all the lame 'in this country!' stuff and the 'oh this town was founded by Japanese immigrants!' and so on? Doesn't really bother me, just seems odd.


It's confirmed his mentor was a big fan of Japanese culture. Apparently her love of Japanese culture was passed on to him.


Sure, you can always come up with a rationalization, I'm not arguing it as a contradiction ;) Just wondering why they go to the effort of 'localizing' some things and don't apparently bother with others. I guess there's a limit to how much extra stuff you can crowbar into translation of a specific amount of source material, that might be all it is...
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Spoiler: This is everything about localizing Blackquill rolled into one picture
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But I have to wonder why the team didn't go for full-Japanese or full-Victorian English. I suppose they were going for the latter, but decided that there's too much "ronin" in him to ignore. Now he sounds like a weaboo, and they'd probably retcon in that he's also a fan of the Steel Samurai.

...Now I've pictured him and Edgey watching anime in their spare time at the office. Someone, quick, draw that now!
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
I think it's different enough in that the main villain is an international spy with a completely different set of motivations and reasons, but whatever.

Eh, I disagree. Taking the same story and swapping the motive (for an extremely flimsy and barely-explained one) is really not different enough imo.


In that case, I think our differences lie in the perception of the storytelling, not how similar it is. I don't think the story is the same for one (reasons already explained), while there are similar elements to be certain, there are plenty of different ones as well:

Spoiler:
The one taking the fall is actively hunting the person who set them up instead of the villain being in a position of coercion, the act of taking the fall was publicly displayed instead of hidden between the two highest ranking officials of the prosecutor's office, taking the fall put someone in jail as opposed to a servant-like position, and the method of taking the fall was exactly the opposite. Whereas Lana tried to have Joe Darke blamed for Ema's supposed "crimes," Blackquill took it upon himself to take the fall, which makes the tale a bit more personal, in my opinion. There's also the dynamic in which Blackquill's actions essentially sentenced himself to execution and acted as the final shove to send people's opinion of the law spiraling downwards, so the stakes are higher as well.

The motive isn't well explained, but that may have been a conscious choice by the writers as well, and considering the person involved was a spy, that theory probably isn't too far off the mark. I vehemently disagree that the motive is flimsy, the motive makes much, much more sense than arguably any main villain in the main series so far, with the exception of perhaps Godot.

Von Karma kills Hammond and Gregory out of an incredibly overbloated sense of pride.
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.

Meanwhile,

Spoiler:
the Phantom kills Metis Cykes because she was actively compiling data on him that could make him far easier to capture and bring in. And for a spy who's consistently living his life on the edge, that's probably the biggest motivator possible next to having your identity revealed, which, interestingly enough, was the motivator for his second killing at the GYAXA HQ.


This isn't to say that all of the main villains have weak motives (with the exception of Von Karma, and for the life of me I can't figure out why just "RARGH HE RUINED ME" is an accepted strong motive in the AA community). People have legitimately been willing to murder others to protect their image, and in Kristoph's case, it was a (really well done, in my opinion) example of a long descent downward. First he cheats to look better, then he cheats once more because he felt cheated and wanted payback, and his crimes get bigger and bigger as he's forced to cover his tracks.

That said...it's far easier to envision

Spoiler:
a spy killing someone to protect their safety


than any of those other things, and I would argue that would be a far more likely event to occur.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the motivation was "extremely flimsy?" I'll grant that it wasn't explained that well, but I think flimsy is more than a little harsh.
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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Von Karma kills Hammond and Gregory out of an incredibly overbloated sense of pride.
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.

Meanwhile,

Spoiler:
the Phantom kills Metis Cykes because she was actively compiling data on him that could make him far easier to capture and bring in. And for a spy who's consistently living his life on the edge, that's probably the biggest motivator possible next to having your identity revealed, which, interestingly enough, was the motivator for his second killing at the GYAXA HQ.


I agree with you for the most part, and I don't mean to be picky. But if you're willing to summarize every villain's motives into single sentences, the same can be done with anyone.
Spoiler:
The Phantom killed some people, stole some stuff, and bombed a courtroom to keep his presence a secret. Hurr durr, that last one seems pretty stupid when said this way.
That's not all that's needed to be said, of course, but the same can be applied to any villain's motive.

Quote:
This isn't to say that all of the main villains have weak motives (with the exception of Von Karma, and for the life of me I can't figure out why just "RARGH HE RUINED ME" is an accepted strong motive in the AA community).

The sad thing is, people like him exist. They're a-plenty in this real world we live in. They also are typically in power...
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Rubia Silve Ryu wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Von Karma kills Hammond and Gregory out of an incredibly overbloated sense of pride.
Gant kills his own subordinate and coerces Lana simply for more power.
Matt Engarde has Juan Corrade killed simply for a hit his PR would take.
Kristoph Gavin kills Shadi Enigmar and ruins Phoenix Wright out of major revenge issues.

Meanwhile,

Spoiler:
the Phantom kills Metis Cykes because she was actively compiling data on him that could make him far easier to capture and bring in. And for a spy who's consistently living his life on the edge, that's probably the biggest motivator possible next to having your identity revealed, which, interestingly enough, was the motivator for his second killing at the GYAXA HQ.


I agree with you for the most part, and I don't mean to be picky. But if you're willing to summarize every villain's motives into single sentences, the same can be done with anyone.
Spoiler:
The Phantom killed some people, stole some stuff, and bombed a courtroom to keep his presence a secret. Hurr durr, that last one seems pretty stupid when said this way.
That's not all that's needed to be said, of course, but the same can be applied to any villain's motive.

Quote:
This isn't to say that all of the main villains have weak motives (with the exception of Von Karma, and for the life of me I can't figure out why just "RARGH HE RUINED ME" is an accepted strong motive in the AA community).

The sad thing is, people like him exist. They're a-plenty in this real world we live in. They also are typically in power...

Well, certainly, you can sum anything up to make it sound stupid. I wasn't trying to do so with the villains, I was just trying to make a short summary as to why they did what they did.

I guess in more detail I could put my problem with Von Karma's like so:

Von Karma felt like he had been horribly wronged by someone pointing out his own corrupt acts. He then proceeds to murder said person over pointing out his own corruptness. Afterwards, he adopts the offender's son and raises him as a prosecutor for the sole purpose of framing him for murder nearly two decades later.

My point is to say that Von Karma's motive is much, much more far fetched than the motivation here, which is merely self preservation. This isn't to say that there's absolutely NO ONE who would do such a thing, but there are far more people who are willing to kill to protect themselves. I think the above is a fairly objective way to put it, but regardless of how you phrase it, it eventually comes down to Von Karma killed Gregory and adopted Miles due to issues stemming from his own pride.

In other words, my argument is essentially: Why does self preservation qualify as a weak motive in a series where people routinely kill and ruin others simply because of their own arrogance (Von Karma, Kristoph Gavin) or for merely reputation (Matt Engarde, Redd White) issues?

Not that those motives are bad, but if you're going to call out the Phantom's, you've pretty much got to call out the rest of the series as well.
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It's great。Yeah, it's hilarious, it's emotional and epic.Anyway, my verdict: Characters: 8/10, music: 10/10, pacing: 4/10, difficulty: too easy, graphics: 10/10.

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TheBlarghMan wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do you feel the motivation was "extremely flimsy?" I'll grant that it wasn't explained that well, but I think flimsy is more than a little harsh.

Spoiler: Case 5
The research was already finished and shipped out--what was killing her gonna do?
Plus the results of the research didn't really seem very incriminating. What are they gonna do, have Interpol analyze the voice of every single person on earth?


Self-preservation isn't a weak motive; it becomes a weak motive when the perceived threat is... not very threatening. (For instance, Ini's motive in 2-2. If she let the channeling go on as planned and it then failed, would the conclusion that Grey came to really have been "The channeling failed because Mimi is actually still alive, as the one who died in the car crash was actually Ini, and then Mimi took over her sister's life by changing her face with plastic surgery in order to escape the guilt and stress of all the patients dying at my clinic!" instead of "I guess spirit channeling isn't actually real"?)


Also, about von Karma: they explicitly state several times that the whole point of von Karma's character is perfection. So while a single penalty would usually be a silly motive to do all that stuff he did, considering von Karma's character, the sole blemish in an otherwise perfect 40-year career is fine as a motive. Maybe it isn't the most compelling motive, but I don't think it's as silly as you're making it out to be, either.
Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Bad Player wrote:
TheBlarghMan wrote:
Out of curiosity, why do you feel the motivation was "extremely flimsy?" I'll grant that it wasn't explained that well, but I think flimsy is more than a little harsh.

Spoiler: Case 5
The research was already finished and shipped out--what was killing her gonna do?
Plus the results of the research didn't really seem very incriminating. What are they gonna do, have Interpol analyze the voice of every single person on earth?


Self-preservation isn't a weak motive; it becomes a weak motive when the perceived threat is... not very threatening. (For instance, Ini's motive in 2-2. If she let the channeling go on as planned and it then failed, would the conclusion that Grey came to really have been "The channeling failed because Mimi is actually still alive, as the one who died in the car crash was actually Ini, and then Mimi took over her sister's life by changing her face with plastic surgery in order to escape the guilt and stress of all the patients dying at my clinic!" instead of "I guess spirit channeling isn't actually real"?)


Also, about von Karma: they explicitly state several times that the whole point of von Karma's character is perfection. So while a single penalty would usually be a silly motive to do all that stuff he did, considering von Karma's character, the sole blemish in an otherwise perfect 40-year career is fine as a motive. Maybe it isn't the most compelling motive, but I don't think it's as silly as you're making it out to be, either.

Spoiler: Case 5
What if he wasn't aware the research was already shipped out? I highly doubt that they would broadcast over the entire nation: "Hey, we finished our research on this super secret international spy today!" He probably found Metis Cykes, killed her, and searched her lab for the research, which delayed him enough so that Athena could arrive. Once Athena arrived, he probably panicked and made a run for it.

Although we're assuming he knew this was a psychological profile as well. He could have thought it was any number of things, and Blackquill could have claimed it was anything, and the Phantom wouldn't have had any real way of knowing what it was. Perhaps he thought it was something that would give a large clue as to his identity. Perhaps he thought that Cykes was a medical expert, and she was examining some DNA he left at the scene of his latest incursion. Really, he had no idea as to what Cykes' report was. All he knew was that it was some damaging information on him, and to him, the prospect that he would be caught sneaking into a building and killing a single doctor was puny compared to the potential effects that could happen from having some information as to his identity obtained.

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Re: What do you think of Dual Destinies?Topic%20Title
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Say, doesn't this stuff count as spoiler material and should be tagged? This thread isn't tagged for spoilers.

TheBlarghMan wrote:
In other words, my argument is essentially: Why does self preservation qualify as a weak motive in a series where people routinely kill and ruin others simply because of their own arrogance (Von Karma, Kristoph Gavin) or for merely reputation (Matt Engarde, Redd White) issues?

Spoiler:
Not that those motives are bad, but if you're going to call out the Phantom's, you've pretty much got to call out the rest of the series as well.

Aw, shucks, I love calling out villain's motives. (If someone asks me for a few examples, I'll gladly answer, but this might not be the appropriate thread...)

Spoiler:
Ghost-guy's motive certainly isn't the worst of the series, true. But compared to the amount of trouble he went through to clean after himself? That's one of the biggest examples of disproportionate retribution if I ever saw one. He'd be on par with Kris and VK.


TheBlarghMan wrote:
Spoiler:
What if he wasn't aware the research was already shipped out? I highly doubt that they would broadcast over the entire nation: "Hey, we finished our research on this super secret international spy today!" He probably found Metis Cykes, killed her, and searched her lab for the research, which delayed him enough so that Athena could arrive. Once Athena arrived, he probably panicked and made a run for it.

Oh, correction.
Spoiler:
Athena was already there when he killed Metis. She fought back, but was too late to save her mother. It's when she stabbed his hand that he started panicking.


Spoiler: And to answer your other points
Phantom's just as paranoid as how Kristoph had been, no question there. He's right to be concerned over the slightest chance that he could still be traced. And even until the end, he feared for his life. However, that assassin wouldn't have been able to shoot him if he hadn't killed Metis in the first place. Sure, he'd be at risk of being called out by the government, but killing the researcher only further proves his desperation. Plus, someone would then have a chance to link it all back to him. Thus, he's forced to erase all evidence of his presence. And for all that he tries, he only makes it worse for himself. It's a ceaseless cycle, and in the end, there was no escaping that assassin.
(Speaking of assassin, that person missed the mark. If (s)he's gonna try again and finish the job, it's gonna be really difficult. If (s)he doesn't finish the job, (s)he could be in trouble anyway.)

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