Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
But Phoenix_Justice just repeats the same old garbage no matter how many times it gets rebutted.
Of course he is. He's unwilling to consider the opinions of others, irrationally clinging to his own arguments for dear life. This may be a harsh assertion, but it's true.
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Gerkuman wrote:
Quote:
But Phoenix_Justice just repeats the same old garbage no matter how many times it gets rebutted.
Of course he is. He's unwilling to consider the opinions of others, irrationally clinging to his own arguments for dear life. This may be a harsh assertion, but it's true.
I'd like to think.....it's not untrue of some of the pro-jerk people as well.
After all me an him noted you guys repeating yourself a lot as well.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
I'd like to think.....it's not untrue of some of the pro-jerk people as well.
After all me an him noted you guys repeating yourself a lot as well.
After all me an him noted you guys repeating yourself a lot as well.
Well Pierre, it isn't just about repetition. It's about validity of the argument.
Once something is sufficiently disproved, one would expect it not to be brought up again. As Phoenix_Justice continues to bring up invalid arguments, we are forced to continue bringing up our points discrediting said arguments.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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pleadingeyes wrote:
Pierre wrote:
I'd like to think.....it's not untrue of some of the pro-jerk people as well.
After all me an him noted you guys repeating yourself a lot as well.
After all me an him noted you guys repeating yourself a lot as well.
Well Pierre, it isn't just about repetition. It's about validity of the argument.
Once something is sufficiently disproved, one would expect it not to be brought up again. As Phoenix_Justice continues to bring up invalid arguments, we are forced to continue bringing up our points discrediting said arguments.
That's because most of what I saw before I left was conjecture interpretation and opinion.
The fact is there's very little said that's definite about it or can help give a definite answer. What may be a logical interpretation by PJustice may be illogical to others and vice versa.
And since there is so little regarding this area it's hard to 'prove' anything as so much goes unsaid.
Was Trucy completely abandoned? She seemed alright when she showed up at Phoenix's door! It never mentions Zak doing anything for her!
So much ambiguity very little can be decided which is why it's best we keep our own peace of mind and accept our own interpretation
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Was Trucy completely abandoned? She seemed alright when she showed up at Phoenix's door!
Aw, c'mon Pierre, can't you think about emotional scarring later in life? That being said, P_J does continue to bring up invalid arguments, and as such, we are forced to retrace our steps.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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weirdghostboo wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Was Trucy completely abandoned? She seemed alright when she showed up at Phoenix's door!
Aw, c'mon Pierre, can't you think about emotional scarring later in life? That being said, P_J does continue to bring up invalid arguments, and as such, we are forced to retrace our steps.
I'm not getting started that was just a point to indicate that there's much that's unknown and unconfirmed.
Besides due to a certain controversial interview there might be no later life for her so everything as portrayed in AJ is at face value.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Besides due to a certain controversial interview there might be no later life for her so everything as portrayed in AJ is at face value.
This isn't really a sound argument. You don't have to SHOW a person suffering trauma after a traumatic even to know it will probably affect them. Just like they didn't have to show us Phoenix taking off his badge and crying for us to understand that it probably REALLY HURT for him to have to give it up. They didn't have to SHOW that Thalassa's probably pretty sad that she lost her memory for so many years and missed out on raising her children for us to understand that she is.
T&T didn't show us Maya crying over Misty's death. Does this mean she's completely unaffected? Of course not! We can safely assume that she was heavily impacted in a negative way.
AJ didn't have to show us that Trucy was hurt over the whole ordeal. It's understood that she was! What's more, the game almost explicitly states she was, when Nick says that he's the only one who really knows how Trucy feels, and they show us a shot of Trucy's sprite crying. What do you think Nick's referring to? She doesn't know Zak's dead yet. She's most likely crying over the trauma of being abandoned by her biological father.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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pleadingeyes wrote:
Pierre wrote:
Besides due to a certain controversial interview there might be no later life for her so everything as portrayed in AJ is at face value.
This isn't really a sound argument. You don't have to SHOW a person suffering trauma after a traumatic even to know it will probably affect them. Just like they didn't have to show us Phoenix taking off his badge and crying for us to understand that it probably REALLY HURT for him to have to give it up. They didn't have to SHOW that Thalassa's probably pretty sad that she lost her memory for so many years and missed out on raising her children for us to understand that she is.
T&T didn't show us Maya crying over Misty's death. Does this mean she's completely unaffected? Of course not! We can safely assume that she was heavily impacted in a negative way.
AJ didn't have to show us that Trucy was hurt over the whole ordeal. It's understood that she was! What's more, the game almost explicitly states she was, when Nick says that he's the only one who really knows how Trucy feels, and they show us a shot of Trucy's sprite crying. What do you think Nick's referring to? She doesn't know Zak's dead yet. She's most likely crying over the trauma of being abandoned by her biological father.
Those examples were all hinted at hurt.
Trucy shows up in perfect condition clean and healthy. A week of living on the streets doesn't indicate that.
POINT IS!
We don't have enough information regarding the character, this trauma you suggest is merely conjecture because of lack of information. We don't know if Zak arranged something or not it's not mentioned but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It comes down to our own interpretations which due to lack of info can't be confirmed or especially disproven.
I don't want to argue about trivial trauma's that may or may not exist it was just an example as to how the lack of information means 'proving' is a challenging thing.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
We don't have enough information regarding the character, this trauma you suggest is merely conjecture because of lack of information. We don't know if Zak arranged something or not it's not mentioned but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
It comes down to our own interpretations which due to lack of info can't be confirmed or especially disproven.
I don't want to argue about trivial trauma's that may or may not exist it was just an example as to how the lack of information means 'proving' is a challenging thing.
How can you say it's trivial? 0_0
The game EXPLICITLY STATES that Trucy is hiding behind her smile. Phoenix EXPLICITLY STATES "I'm the only one who knows how she really feels" and shows an image of Trucy crying.
There is nothing vague about that! Clearly being abandoned by Zak HURT Trucy. Clearly, under all the smiles and cheer, she's still HURT by her father's abandonment. Phoenix right out states it *and* we get an accompanying image. What more could you ask for?
Pierre wrote:
Trucy shows up in perfect condition clean and healthy. A week of living on the streets doesn't indicate that.
Whose to say she was on the streets? For all we know, she was being held in police custody to see if Zak would return for her.
What we DO know is that she had to go to Nick AT ALL. If Zak had arranged someone for her to stay with, why wouldn't she have stayed with this person? Why run off and go to Nick, a perfect stranger?
Why weren't Trucy's lunches paid for the entire month?
The pieces are there, you're just choosing to disregard them. =/
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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There's a friggin SPRITE that shows the sad Trucy!
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Everyone was hurt by the disappearing act.
Zak had no choice.
Paying her Dinner Fees would've meant he was still alive thus Interpol could potentially track him and worse he wouldn't be declared legally dead and unable to pass on the rights of Gramayre magic to Trucy.
The Police Custody thing was actually argued by me a while ago. Zak being the cunning devil he is either figured the police would look after her and find an appropriate place, had arranged some temporary place for her to stay but ultimately his plan was for the man he trusted Phoenix Wright to look after Trucy having judged his personality on a game of poker. It may be risky foolhardy and naive but his plan and estimation of Phoenix worked.
There is AT LEAST 2 sides to everything, very little can be 'proven' as fact it's all down to interpretation.
Point: We should stop bickering and stick to our own beliefs acknowledging that they aren't 'proven' but are what we believe in. Belief's don't need to be proven or better than other ones you just need to keep your own faith in em.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Zak had no choice.
Paying her Dinner Fees would've meant he was still alive thus Interpol could potentially track him and worse he wouldn't be declared legally dead and unable to pass on the rights of Gramayre magic to Trucy.
Paying her Dinner Fees would've meant he was still alive thus Interpol could potentially track him and worse he wouldn't be declared legally dead and unable to pass on the rights of Gramayre magic to Trucy.
WTH? Zak is such a jerk he doesn't bother paying Trucy's owed school lunch fees for a YEAR BEFORE he ever 'disappeared'. This is why, Trucy explains to Phoenix, she's relieved she'll change schools now, the jerk ripped the school off without paying what he owed.
Quote:
Besides due to a certain controversial interview there might be no later life for her so everything as portrayed in AJ is at face value.
Um. This is not a valid argument. It's implied Trucy's life will continue in the game world, even if the series doesn't. Anyway, since no sequel was planned, the credits imply the intended future even more strongly. Tearful Trucy's traumatised by the whole Zak thing and Phoenix is worried about her future emotional stability. CANON.
Now, the fact that Trucy was NOT shown to be distraught after Zak disappeared and so eager to have a NEW Daddy doesn't bode well to imply a positive Zak-Trucy bond does it?
Also, a lot of the 'arguments' here (especially from P_J) is that Zak is not a jerk because he thought he was acting correctly in his personal value system, doing the 'right' thing. This is an invalid argument. EVERYONE thinks they are doing this. The debate topic isn't 'Does ZAK think he's a jerk'? No doubt Zak thinks he's a wonderful guy. And the game itself strongly implies and frames Zak in a manner that he's SUPPOSED to be perceived as a jerk or similar distasteful category. It's not a grey area like, say, Thalassa where not enough information is given to pass any level of objective judgment.
We rebut Phoenix_Justice with quotes and incidents actually written in the canon of the games. He just repeats the same old unjustifiable statements pulled out of his personal pro-Zak fanfic, and uses more of his fanfic to 'support' and 'justify' them.
For example 'Zak regretted hitting Olga'.
Zak dies right after. The fact he's in an 'uncontrollable rage' in the short interim hardly implies remorse. There is nothing at all to imply support to this statement in the actual game. But Phoenix_Justice appears to think his imagination is a canonic source!
'Zak had a lapse in judgment'.
There is nothing that ever implies this in the actual game. (What's more, even if he did have a 'lapse of judgment', it's jerks which have these kind of lapse outbursts)
etc.
And every statement, Phoenix_Justice justifies with other canon-unsupported statements from his own imagination, and supports THEM with the first imaginary statement, in a depressing circularity.
I advise Phoenix_Justice go write a pro-Zak fanfic from Zak's POV and stop with the illusion he is forming coherent 'argument' or 'debate'. If there's any reading of the actual game supporting Zak not being a 'jerk', PJ sure hasn't found it. (Or maybe he knows he's just repeating baseless propaganda? Then we should ignore him so he has no platform for it.)
Quote:
Point: We should stop bickering and stick to our own beliefs acknowledging that they aren't 'proven' but are what we believe in. Belief's don't need to be proven or better than other ones you just need to keep your own faith in em.
No, I don't agree with this general stance. Some things are canon, some things are readings and interpretations which can find varying degrees of support in the actual canon, and some things are all fantasy. Wishful thinking alone does not put things in the game.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Canon: Zak is a Jerk
Interpretation: Zak was justified in being a jerk/isn't justified in being a jerk.
Fantasy: Zak isn't a Jerk.
Of course, you could replace Zak with Valant in those statements, and it'd still fit. XD
I dislike people whitewashing Valant's actions as much as I dislike people whitewashing Zak's actions. Sure Zak is worse, but the entire Grammarye family is really messed up. (Except for Trucy, and possibly Thalassa if she had a good reason for witholding the info about her kids)
Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Gerkuman wrote:
Or to put it more succintly:
Canon: Zak is a Jerk
Interpretation: Zak was justified in being a jerk/isn't justified in being a jerk.
Fantasy: Zak isn't a Jerk.
Of course, you could replace Zak with Valant in those statements, and it'd still fit. XD
I dislike people whitewashing Valant's actions as much as I dislike people whitewashing Zak's actions. Sure Zak is worse, but the entire Grammarye family is really messed up. (Except for Trucy, and possibly Thalassa if she had a good reason for witholding the info about her kids)
Canon: Zak is a Jerk
Interpretation: Zak was justified in being a jerk/isn't justified in being a jerk.
Fantasy: Zak isn't a Jerk.
Of course, you could replace Zak with Valant in those statements, and it'd still fit. XD
I dislike people whitewashing Valant's actions as much as I dislike people whitewashing Zak's actions. Sure Zak is worse, but the entire Grammarye family is really messed up. (Except for Trucy, and possibly Thalassa if she had a good reason for witholding the info about her kids)
Well y'see I'm afraid I respectfully disagree I wouldn't say anything can be canon about Zak so long as the interpretation exists. Interpretation implies there is not fact.
A man whose career is plummeting due to a change in public preferences in entertainment has trouble paying for his daughter to pay school lunch fees? Does it make him a jerk? Or does it just make him an unfortunate individual?
Every 'jerk' thing can be interpreted differently or put in a different way. I see Zak as a unfortunate father short on options forced to do something he didn't want to do.
I regret coming back.
It's not like I'm saying the holocaust never happened. However you seem to be acting like I'm saying Gravity isn't real or something. I'm sorry for presenting another alternative. I acknowledge my way might not be fact but I believe it is the right way and I don't believe your way is fact either.
Unfortunately none of you seem to be content with that
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Well y'see I'm afraid I respectfully disagree I wouldn't say anything can be canon about Zak so long as the interpretation exists. Interpretation implies there is not fact.
A man whose career is plummeting due to a change in public preferences in entertainment has trouble paying for his daughter to pay school lunch fees? Does it make him a jerk? Or does it just make him an unfortunate individual?
Every 'jerk' thing can be interpreted differently or put in a different way. I see Zak as a unfortunate father short on options forced to do something he didn't want to do.
I regret coming back.
It's not like I'm saying the holocaust never happened. However you seem to be acting like I'm saying Gravity isn't real or something. I'm sorry for presenting another alternative. I acknowledge my way might not be fact but I believe it is the right way and I don't believe your way is fact either.
Unfortunately none of you seem to be content with that
Pierre, I think part of the problem seems to be that this so-called "alternate interpretation" is incredibly offensive.
To say Zak is a perfectly nice guy who just had a lapse in judgment is justifying his assault on Olga. Unfortunately, we do live in a world where women are assaulted IN REAL LIFE, and much like in this situation, often times victims do not come forward or are not helped because their attacker is convincing enough to manipulate people into thinking he's "justified".
No, assault on someone who was no threat to you is NOT okay. It is NEVER okay. If it was not in self defense, assault is WRONG. Most especially when the assault is on someone weaker than the attacker. Zak was a big guy, definitely had some real strength. It is not a lie to say he could have KILLED Olga.
The trouble with saying "Zak is just a nice guy who got stuck doing things he didn't want to do" is that you're implying that the assault was not his fault. But then whose fault is it? Olga's? This is the VERY attitude that prevents victims of rape, assault, spousal abuse, child abuse, and many other types of violence from coming forward. Victims are TERRIFIED that it was somehow their fault.
It was not Olga's fault that Zak assaulted her, regardless of how the scam went wrong and whatever Zak may have thought. It was ZAK'S fault. He alone is responsible for his actions, and what he did was so far BEYOND just being a jerk. He could have KILLED her.
Yes Pierre, you can argue that the lunches weren't paid simply because Zak was broke and couldn't afford it. But you cannot argue that his assault was justified, because it simply wasn't. Had he simply shoved her? Okay. Hell, he didnt even just punch her, though that would have been bad enough. He grabbed a weapon with the intent to cause more damage.
I'm sorry if you feel attacked. Believe me, I don't mean anything personal against you. But as someone who has seen, lived through, and volunteered in groups to aid against violence, I can tell you that Zak's behavior is textbook abusive. He is (at the very least) a jerk.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Sorry he's not a perfect human being but I don't think that alone makes him such a bad human being.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
I'm afraid you'll just have to accept that my stance on Zak may be offensive to you.
Then I'm sorry that you seem to be perfectly okay with victim blaming and justifying his abusive behavior. I really am sorry, because this is the sort of "oh well" behavior that keeps victims from getting help, and I hope should anyone close to you ever suffer from this sort of circumstance in real life, where it's not just a game, that you won't be so lax about it then...
Pierre wrote:
Sorry he's not a perfect human being but I don't think that alone makes him such a bad human being.
I don't think someone has to be "perfect" to know not to try and almost kill someone. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the basic standard for ANY living human being on the plant.
Well, at any rate, I'm not going to reason with you when you refuse to even try to understand a perspective other than your own.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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pleadingeyes wrote:
Pierre wrote:
I'm afraid you'll just have to accept that my stance on Zak may be offensive to you.
Then I'm sorry that you seem to be perfectly okay with victim blaming and justifying his abusive behavior. I really am sorry, because this is the sort of "oh well" behavior that keeps victims from getting help, and I hope should anyone close to you ever suffer from this sort of circumstance in real life, where it's not just a game, that you won't be so lax about it then...
Pierre wrote:
Sorry he's not a perfect human being but I don't think that alone makes him such a bad human being.
I don't think someone has to be "perfect" to know not to try and almost kill someone. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the basic standard for ANY living human being on the plant.
Well, at any rate, I'm not going to reason with you when you refuse to even try to understand a perspective other than your own.
What was that you said about not getting personal?
Did I miss something? I just meant we should agree to disagree.I understand your perspective, hitting a woman should never be acceptable.
However I view Zak as a man at the end of his tether for that situation, one black mark on a white canvas doesn't make the painting black to me.
Please understand I'm not condoning his behaviour, I'm just not judging his entire life and character on that one action.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
What was that you said about not getting personal?
Did I miss something? I just meant we should agree to disagree.I believe you made it personal with your dismissive "you'll have to accept my stance may be offensive to you" without any regard to what was actually being said.
Pierre wrote:
I understand your perspective, hitting a woman should never be acceptable.
However I view Zak as a man at the end of his tether for that situation, one black mark on a white canvas doesn't make the painting black to me.
However I view Zak as a man at the end of his tether for that situation, one black mark on a white canvas doesn't make the painting black to me.
But as has been said again and again, was it a momentary lapse in judgement due to him being at the end of his rope, he could have just SHOVED her, or even HIT her. He didn't. He went out of his way to find a weapon. This is evidence enough that he had a clear enough head to think of how best to injure her, and did so with intent.
Pierre wrote:
Please understand I'm not condoning his behaviour, I'm just not judging his entire life and character on that one action.
And yet by excusing his behavior, you are condoning it. And this isn't an isolated incident. We know he had a tendency to hit Brushel, and Brushel reacted with *fear*, so it was not a friendly sort of hit.
And as others have said:
icer wrote:
Tearful Trucy's traumatised by the whole Zak thing and Phoenix is worried about her future emotional stability. CANON.
Now, the fact that Trucy was NOT shown to be distraught after Zak disappeared and so eager to have a NEW Daddy doesn't bode well to imply a positive Zak-Trucy bond does it?
Now, the fact that Trucy was NOT shown to be distraught after Zak disappeared and so eager to have a NEW Daddy doesn't bode well to imply a positive Zak-Trucy bond does it?
The game does NOTHING to imply he was a good father, while leaving hints that he may have been a poor one.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
I believe you made it personal with your dismissive "you'll have to accept my stance may be offensive to you" without any regard to what was actually being said.
Sorry I was watching a film at the time and didn't wanna be held up long. I caught that you thought my stance was offensive but it's only a belief you don't need to support it and if we can agree to disagree I won't be shoving it in your face.
Quote:
But as has been said again and again, was it a momentary lapse in judgement due to him being at the end of his rope, he could have just SHOVED her, or even HIT her. He didn't. He went out of his way to find a weapon. This is evidence enough that he had a clear enough head to think of how best to injure her, and did so with intent.
It's not like he pulled a lever he'd planted under the table that tugged a wire triggering a small catapult to propel the bottle over to his hand. The bottle was on hand it's not like he had to go out of his way. I refuse to believe grab and whack requires heavy thinking or a clear head.
Quote:
And yet by excusing his behavior, you are condoning it. And this isn't an isolated incident. We know he had a tendency to hit Brushel, and Brushel reacted with *fear*, so it was not a friendly sort of hit
Brushel was an incredibly annoying individual and it's not like he ever hospitalised him or properly injured him so we can't tell what degree the hits were apart from nothing serious. I'm not condoning his behaviour either I could either say "Zak had a bad period where he whacked her with a bottle" or I could say "Zak is a Jerk based primarily on this action" but I don't think he is a jerk on a whole so I'm not condoning his behaviour just because I'm not jumping on the 'jerkwagon'
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Sorry I was watching a film at the time and didn't wanna be held up long. I caught that you thought my stance was offensive but it's only a belief you don't need to support it and if we can agree to disagree I won't be shoving it in your face.
You don't have to shove a racist belief in someone's face to be offensive to them. Simply by subscribing to that hurtful school of thought, you are offensive.
In the same way, by condoning abusive behavior, you are being offensive, even if you are taking an "agree to disagree" stance.
I'm not angry at you, I'm just trying to explain...
Pierre wrote:
It's not like he pulled a lever he'd planted under the table that tugged a wire triggering a small catapult to propel the bottle over to his hand. The bottle was on hand it's not like he had to go out of his way. I refuse to believe grab and whack requires heavy thinking or a clear head.
I repeat:
pleadingeyes wrote:
To pick up a weapon of any kind requires a logical thought process. Why do only organisms of a certain level of intelligence use tools (ie. humans, chimpanzees, etc)? Because it takes a certain level of cognitive thought to use tools. It isn't just a basic instinct. Instinct usually entails using our own bodies; our teeth, nails, fists, feet, etc.
Zak didn't just shove Olga. He didn't even punch her (which is pretty jerky in of itself). He actually took the time to look around, find the nearest and most useful tool to cause injury, pick it up, figure out how best to hold/swing it, and THEN charge at her. This shows he THOUGHT about what he was doing, even if this all occurred within seconds, with the deliberate intention to injure Olga in revenge. Yes, he was angry. Yes, anger may have been his reason to act this way. But he still had the mental faculties to think, evidenced by how he improvised with his assault and made a weapon out of a glass bottle.
Zak didn't just shove Olga. He didn't even punch her (which is pretty jerky in of itself). He actually took the time to look around, find the nearest and most useful tool to cause injury, pick it up, figure out how best to hold/swing it, and THEN charge at her. This shows he THOUGHT about what he was doing, even if this all occurred within seconds, with the deliberate intention to injure Olga in revenge. Yes, he was angry. Yes, anger may have been his reason to act this way. But he still had the mental faculties to think, evidenced by how he improvised with his assault and made a weapon out of a glass bottle.
Pierre wrote:
Brushel was an incredibly annoying individual
ACK. Again. D= This is victim blaming!
It's not okay to hit someone, no matter how annoying they are!
It's really, really terrible when you say things like this. I know you don't intend to be offensive, but please, just try to consider it for a moment. You are blaming the victim by saying they were "annoying", therefor implying it was their fault!
This excuse is used by abusive parents/spouses all the time! My child/wife annoyed me, that's why I hit him/her. This is NOT okay!
Pierre wrote:
and it's not like he ever hospitalised him or properly injured him so we can't tell what degree the hits were apart from nothing serious. I'm not condoning his behaviour either I could either say "Zak had a bad period where he whacked her with a bottle" or I could say "Zak is a Jerk based primarily on this action" but I don't think he is a jerk on a whole so I'm not condoning his behaviour just because I'm not jumping on the 'jerkwagon'
You're not jumping on the jerkwagon for accepting the canon facts. This isn't a popularity contest, and while I can appreciate trying to find the motives behind a character's actions, this doesn't mean we can disregard their flaws. Being a jerk is a character flaw.
Your actions make you who you are. If you admit that these actions on Zak's part were jerkish, then yes, he is a jerk.
And again:
pleadingeyes wrote:
What's more, Zak had no right to be angry at Olga for the cheat failing, even IF he thought she had betrayed him. The fact is, he was still CHEATING, and he has no right to be mad at Olga for cheating him out of his cheat (regardless of what his motives for cheating were). This is called hypocrisy, and it also makes you a jerk.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
Brushel was an incredibly annoying individual and it's not like he ever hospitalised him or properly injured him so we can't tell what degree the hits were apart from nothing serious.
How would we know he never 'injured Brushel properly'? And the 'it wasn't bad enough to hospitalise them so it doesn't matter' 'argument' is offensive. Sorry. Besides, it's implied he hit Brushel on more than one occasion. These injuries can build into something more serious, particularly if the original injuries never get a chance to recover. Although we don't know this is what happened with Brushel, the entire stance it's somehow okay to abuse people with repeated 'minor' injury is offensive. And hitting both Olga and Brushel, we're getting a pattern here. Implying Zak doesn't care if he hits people. Who knows who else he's treated this way. And he continually treats others with uncaring, selfish attitudes.
Quote:
I'm not condoning his behaviour either I could either say "Zak had a bad period where he whacked her with a bottle" or I could say "Zak is a Jerk based primarily on this action" but I don't think he is a jerk on a whole so I'm not condoning his behaviour just because I'm not jumping on the 'jerkwagon'
It's not just the Olga assault, this is backed up with repeated other examples of negative and selfish behaviour throughout the game. And how many contradictory examples are there of Zak displaying caring and unselfish behaviour to rebut the 'jerk' depiction? I'm waiting.....
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
How would we know he never 'injured Brushel properly'? And the 'it wasn't bad enough to hospitalise them so it doesn't matter' 'argument' is offensive. Sorry. Besides, it's implied he hit Brushel on more than one occasion. These injuries can build into something more serious, particularly if the original injuries never get a chance to recover. Although we don't know this is what happened with Brushel, the entire stance it's somehow okay to abuse people with repeated 'minor' injury is offensive. And hitting both Olga and Brushel, we're getting a pattern here. Implying Zak doesn't care if he hits people. Who knows who else he's treated this way. And he continually treats others with uncaring, selfish attitudes.
We don't know anything about the degree of the hits. Brushel doesn't look especially tough, Zak hitting him playfully and as a warning doesn't mean he's massive. And the 'slippery slope' argument doesn't work you can't predict human behaviour that way when oh so many factors come into play. The Olga incident is incredibly stressful and may have attributed to it whereas the incident I recall with Brushel was as a warning because he was about to say too much. Can't generalise that for everyone.
Quote:
It's not just the Olga assault, this is backed up with repeated other examples of negative and selfish behaviour throughout the game. And how many contradictory examples are there of Zak displaying caring and unselfish behaviour to rebut the 'jerk' depiction? I'm waiting.....
Again most of those are all a matter of perspective, tis always another way to look at it. Naturally since I don't think of him as a jerk I don't take the negative approach.
Quote:
In the same way, by condoning abusive behavior, you are being offensive, even if you are taking an "agree to disagree" stance.
I never said I condoned his behaviour or excused it. I just don't judge him wholly on it.
Quote:
To pick up a weapon of any kind requires a logical thought process. Why do only organisms of a certain level of intelligence use tools (ie. humans, chimpanzees, etc)? Because it takes a certain level of cognitive thought to use tools. It isn't just a basic instinct. Instinct usually entails using our own bodies; our teeth, nails, fists, feet, etc.
Zak didn't just shove Olga. He didn't even punch her (which is pretty jerky in of itself). He actually took the time to look around, find the nearest and most useful tool to cause injury, pick it up, figure out how best to hold/swing it, and THEN charge at her. This shows he THOUGHT about what he was doing, even if this all occurred within seconds, with the deliberate intention to injure Olga in revenge. Yes, he was angry. Yes, anger may have been his reason to act this way. But he still had the mental faculties to think, evidenced by how he improvised with his assault and made a weapon out of a glass bottle.
Zak didn't just shove Olga. He didn't even punch her (which is pretty jerky in of itself). He actually took the time to look around, find the nearest and most useful tool to cause injury, pick it up, figure out how best to hold/swing it, and THEN charge at her. This shows he THOUGHT about what he was doing, even if this all occurred within seconds, with the deliberate intention to injure Olga in revenge. Yes, he was angry. Yes, anger may have been his reason to act this way. But he still had the mental faculties to think, evidenced by how he improvised with his assault and made a weapon out of a glass bottle.
If you accept that humans have been using tools and weapons admittedly since our long long distant ancestors consider the concept of Collective Unconscious. A Jungian concept where deep seated knowledge of our ancestor's nature (such as using tools and weapons) is passed down to humans in primitive unconscious form. If basic anger can trigger a desire to hurt someone it's not a far stretch to assume clubbing someone is a simple primal thing driven by this collective unconscious, a process we AREN'T AWARE OF. Add to that that some motor functions are autonomous and require no thought kind of indicates there was very little thinking required for this assault. The bottles were on the table easily within reach and Olga wasn't far from the table so may not even have needed to charge.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Okay, let's keep it nice and simple:
icer wrote:
It's not just the Olga assault, this is backed up with repeated other examples of negative and selfish behaviour throughout the game. And how many contradictory examples are there of Zak displaying caring and unselfish behaviour to rebut the 'jerk' depiction? I'm waiting.....
We've shown plenty of exmaples of what a jerk he is in the game, regardless of how much you try to downplay them.
How about you give us some examples of him behaving like a caring individual in the game? Any. At all.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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pleadingeyes wrote:
I cannot even believe... you're still saying it's OKAY for him to hit people! Aaaargh.
Okay, let's keep it nice and simple:
We've shown plenty of exmaples of what a jerk he is in the game, regardless of how much you try to downplay them.
How about you give us some examples of him behaving like a caring individual in the game? Any. At all.
Okay, let's keep it nice and simple:
icer wrote:
It's not just the Olga assault, this is backed up with repeated other examples of negative and selfish behaviour throughout the game. And how many contradictory examples are there of Zak displaying caring and unselfish behaviour to rebut the 'jerk' depiction? I'm waiting.....
We've shown plenty of exmaples of what a jerk he is in the game, regardless of how much you try to downplay them.
How about you give us some examples of him behaving like a caring individual in the game? Any. At all.
Sure though I still don't recall saying it's ok for him to hit people.
We all accept that Phoenix deeply cares for and loves Trucy right?
Zak remembers how long he and Trucy have been apart BETTER THAN PHOENIX HIMSELF.
He's been counting the days he's been separated from his daughter, even has a remorseful sprite.
There you have one.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
We all accept that Phoenix deeply cares for and loves Trucy right?
Zak remembers how long he and Trucy have been apart BETTER THAN PHOENIX HIMSELF.
He's been counting the days he's been separated from his daughter, even has a remorseful sprite.
There you have one.
Or perhaps Zak remembers because he's been counting the days since Phoenix beat him.
Again, this is not a caring ACTION (which he even then invalidates by trying to ruin Phoenix, the man who he KNEW had been raising his daughter for ALL THIS TIME). This just shows that Zak had a calender.
Try again.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
pleadingeyes wrote:
I cannot even believe... you're still saying it's OKAY for him to hit people! Aaaargh.
Okay, let's keep it nice and simple:
We've shown plenty of exmaples of what a jerk he is in the game, regardless of how much you try to downplay them.
How about you give us some examples of him behaving like a caring individual in the game? Any. At all.
Okay, let's keep it nice and simple:
icer wrote:
It's not just the Olga assault, this is backed up with repeated other examples of negative and selfish behaviour throughout the game. And how many contradictory examples are there of Zak displaying caring and unselfish behaviour to rebut the 'jerk' depiction? I'm waiting.....
We've shown plenty of exmaples of what a jerk he is in the game, regardless of how much you try to downplay them.
How about you give us some examples of him behaving like a caring individual in the game? Any. At all.
Sure though I still don't recall saying it's ok for him to hit people.
We all accept that Phoenix deeply cares for and loves Trucy right?
Zak remembers how long he and Trucy have been apart BETTER THAN PHOENIX HIMSELF.
He's been counting the days he's been separated from his daughter, even has a remorseful sprite.
There you have one.
So he knows the date he'll be 'legally dead'. He doesn't want to appear while there's still risk.
See. This does not imply a positive interpretation. If he really missed Trucy, he'd accept Phoenix's offer for him to see her. After all, he 'promised' he'd see her again.
How does the fact that Zak was 'stressed' or 'angry' make what he did acceptable and non-jerkish. Hypothetical: Man has bad day at work, is probably abused by boss, goes home and beats up his kid. It was stress! He's not a jerk and it's quite okay!
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Man goes down the street. Is harassed by a smaller man who pushes the man and taunts him, possibly for some vendetta, keeps this up on a daily basis. One day the man is at his tether and floors the small man.
To the courts it's assault to me it's justice.
Quote:
Or perhaps Zak remembers because he's been counting the days since Phoenix beat him.
Again, this is not a caring ACTION (which he even then invalidates by trying to ruin Phoenix, the man who he KNEW had been raising his daughter for ALL THIS TIME). This just shows that Zak had a calender.
Again, this is not a caring ACTION (which he even then invalidates by trying to ruin Phoenix, the man who he KNEW had been raising his daughter for ALL THIS TIME). This just shows that Zak had a calender.
Wrong, it was the days since he had disappeared from court away from Trucy not the days since he lost to Phoenix.
Again this is a matter of perspective see you jumped to a negative one whereas mine just portrays Zak positively.
Furthermore he apologised to Phoenix and thanked him for looking after Trucy all this time.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
No Icer more like.
Man goes down the street. Is harassed by a smaller man who pushes the man and taunts him, possibly for some vendetta, keeps this up on a daily basis. One day the man is at his tether and floors the small man.
To the courts it's assault to me it's justice.
Man goes down the street. Is harassed by a smaller man who pushes the man and taunts him, possibly for some vendetta, keeps this up on a daily basis. One day the man is at his tether and floors the small man.
To the courts it's assault to me it's justice.
Look, I'm sure we can all sympathise with the 'dog' tied up who gets stones thrown at it for years expected to just turn the other cheek, and the one day it finally bites back it gets put down. But nothing ever implies Zak was in this situation; precisely the opposite. Olga was no physical threat and a SINGULAR INCIDENT. There's nothing to suggest Brushel was bullying, abusing, hitting or even deliberately annoying Zak, and much to suggest the reverse.
I raised this non-parallel example to demonstrate 'stress' or 'anger' hardly makes an assault right. Your example is not 'stress' or 'anger' but tolerating YEARS of continual physical etc. abuse before final retaliation. Zak's reactions showed NO tolerance, patience or restraint. He grabbed the best available weapon and hit Olga immediately,not even having full awareness of how/to what extent she'd really wronged him. And there's nothing in the game to EVER imply anyone treated him in the manner of your example. If you're supporting Zak through adherence to some ideal "in some contexts what's framed and demonised as 'an assault' doesn't really mean the assaulter is a 'bad' 'jerk' person" then Zak is not the correct target for these sympathies. We know very well the situation around the Olga assault, enough to know this response was completely unjustified.
Quote:
Quote:
Or perhaps Zak remembers because he's been counting the days since Phoenix beat him.
Again, this is not a caring ACTION (which he even then invalidates by trying to ruin Phoenix, the man who he KNEW had been raising his daughter for ALL THIS TIME). This just shows that Zak had a calender.
Again, this is not a caring ACTION (which he even then invalidates by trying to ruin Phoenix, the man who he KNEW had been raising his daughter for ALL THIS TIME). This just shows that Zak had a calender.
Wrong, it was the days since he had disappeared from court away from Trucy not the days since he lost to Phoenix.
Again this is a matter of perspective see you jumped to a negative one whereas mine just portrays Zak positively.
Furthermore he apologised to Phoenix and thanked him for looking after Trucy all this time.
Totally empty words, especially since he's about to 'thank' Phoenix by ruining him. Actions speak louder than words, it's cliche for a reason. And we've been through this one before.
'I regret what happened when I murdered your kid 7 years ago'. Does it make the person not a murderer? Does it bring the kid back? Does it make them a 'nice' person, a belated apology? Oh, and they're about to burn down your house to show they 'meant' it.
and you didn't reply to my statement so I suppose you have no rebuttal
and one day difference is not much to keep track of.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
Look, I'm sure we can all sympathise with the 'dog' tied up who gets stones thrown at it for years expected to just turn the other cheek, and the one day it finally bites back it gets put down. But nothing ever implies Zak was in this situation; precisely the opposite. Olga was no physical threat and a SINGULAR INCIDENT. There's nothing to suggest Brushel was bullying, abusing, hitting or even deliberately annoying Zak, and much to suggest the reverse.
I raised this non-parallel example to demonstrate 'stress' or 'anger' hardly makes an assault right. Your example is not 'stress' or 'anger' but tolerating YEARS of continual physical etc. abuse before final retaliation. Zak's reactions showed NO tolerance, patience or restraint. He grabbed the best available weapon and hit Olga immediately,not even having full awareness of how/to what extent she'd really wronged him. And there's nothing in the game to EVER imply anyone treated him in the manner of your example. If you're supporting Zak through adherence to some ideal "in some contexts what's framed and demonised as 'an assault' doesn't really mean the assaulter is a 'bad' 'jerk' person" then Zak is not the correct target for these sympathies. We know very well the situation around the Olga assault, enough to know this response was completely unjustified.
I raised this non-parallel example to demonstrate 'stress' or 'anger' hardly makes an assault right. Your example is not 'stress' or 'anger' but tolerating YEARS of continual physical etc. abuse before final retaliation. Zak's reactions showed NO tolerance, patience or restraint. He grabbed the best available weapon and hit Olga immediately,not even having full awareness of how/to what extent she'd really wronged him. And there's nothing in the game to EVER imply anyone treated him in the manner of your example. If you're supporting Zak through adherence to some ideal "in some contexts what's framed and demonised as 'an assault' doesn't really mean the assaulter is a 'bad' 'jerk' person" then Zak is not the correct target for these sympathies. We know very well the situation around the Olga assault, enough to know this response was completely unjustified.
Actually I got the impression Brushel was often making slip ups and almost letting his tongue slip about Shadi Smith's past thus resulting in several warning strikes much like a nudge in the ribs with an elbow or kicking someone under the table to keep them quiet.
Also once again I've stated that to Zak it would've seemed like Olga had betrayed him and conned him out of oh so much money being a professional dealer. That's the massive push that causes him to exact vengeance on this criminal.
And while WE know the full circumstances of the assault Zak doesn't know the whole story so what we might view as bad behaviour he would see it as justifiable.
Quote:
Totally empty words, especially since he's about to 'thank' Phoenix by ruining him. Actions speak louder than words, it's cliche for a reason. And we've been through this one before.
How much would it have ruined him? Phoenix is crippling himself in that job anyway his poker skills are legendary if he played professionally as Zak shows a good amount of money could be made. Besides Zak was going to make his daughter rich enough to support both of them.
Quote:
'I regret what happened when I murdered your kid 7 years ago'. Does it make the person not a murderer? Does it bring the kid back? Does it make them a 'nice' person, a belated apology? Oh, and they're about to burn down your house to show they 'meant' it.
If they apologise for killing a child it shows a desire to change their behaviour. If they've lived a good clean life since then or even intend to, I'd like to think I'd have it in my heart to forgive them.
Quote:
and you didn't reply to my statement so I suppose you have no rebuttal and one day difference is not much to keep track of.
and one day difference is not much to keep track of.Please remind me of it, was like 2:30 AM last night so I was a bit dozy sorry. One day of difference on the most influential day in your life does seem pretty important to me.
Besides he says what the days are the days since he disappeared not since the day he played Phoenix. It may be one day but he blatantly says what he's been counting since.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
Also once again I've stated that to Zak it would've seemed like Olga had betrayed him and conned him out of oh so much money being a professional dealer. That's the massive push that causes him to exact vengeance on this criminal.
And while WE know the full circumstances of the assault Zak doesn't know the whole story so what we might view as bad behaviour he would see it as justifiable.
And while WE know the full circumstances of the assault Zak doesn't know the whole story so what we might view as bad behaviour he would see it as justifiable.
And again, even IF he had paid Olga a lot of money (which is never stated in canon!) it does not justify an assault. Your comparison was one of someone abusing another person over a long period of time. Olga did no such thing. This was a SINGLE, ISOLATED incident.
Yes, Zak may have thought he was justified. So does EVERY criminal ever! They all think they're justified. That's the POINT. Dahlia thought her murders were justified. Manfred thought his murder was justified. Engarde thought his hit on Corrida was justified. Godot thought his murder of Misty was justified at the time, though he later regretted it, he still realized what he'd done was wrong and he deserved to be held accountable for it. Zak may have thought he was justified, just as every criminal ever does, but that doesn't make his actions any less jerkish.
And AGAIN, even IF Zak suspected that Olga had cheated him, he had NO RIGHT to be that angry about it considering he was using her to cheat PHOENIX. Being upset about being cheated in a cheat is called hypocrisy! It makes you a JERK.
Pierre wrote:
How much would it have ruined him? Phoenix is crippling himself in that job anyway his poker skills are legendary if he played professionally as Zak shows a good amount of money could be made. Besides Zak was going to make his daughter rich enough to support both of them.
No one will hire Phoenix! Phoenix isn't choosing to take a crummy job, the mess with Zak's case has made it nearly impossible for him to find a job! And Zak has just come in to take Phoenix's only tenuous source of income away. And it doesn't matter if Zak was going to give Trucy the rights. Trucy is only 15, she still has school and growing up to do. She's not ready to support a household! Show business is a full time job, even if it's a "fun hobby". The funnest of hobbies become stressful as hell when your next meal depends on it.
Take it from me. I run the musical project. Is it fun? Oh definitely, I love what we're doing. Is it a ton of work and stressful as hell? EVEN MORESO. We've had several people quit, as much as they love the project and still pop in to visit, because it's a lot of work! And this is *JUST* a hobby. Not a career than my wellbeing and that of my family's depends on!
Pierre wrote:
If they apologise for killing a child it shows a desire to change their behaviour. If they've lived a good clean life since then or even intend to, I'd like to think I'd have it in my heart to forgive them.
Oh yeah? Tell it to the parents.
"Sorry you lost your child to this murderer, but he seems sorry to me! I think I'll forgive him. Have fun living the rest of your lives mourning the loss of your innocent child he killed."
And Zak's apology doesn't mean squat, seeing as he then tries to CHEAT Phoenix. What reason did he have to cheat Phoenix at ALL? Phoenix was only declared a fraud in the first place because of Zak's trial. If anything, you think Zak would want to help clear up Phoenix's innocence, at least to thank him for raising his daughter for 7 years despite having his reputation shattered.
I repeat, he tried to FRAME PHOENIX FOR A CRIME PHOENIX DID NOT COMMIT. Remember in JFA, how Adrian tampered with the crime scene? Would this make it okay for Phoenix to pin the murder on her to make her pay for her crime? Of course not! She didn't kill anyone! In the same way, Phoenix was not cheating at poker with Zak. Zak was framing him with the intent to ruin him out of pride! Zak doesn't give a damn about Phoenix. If anything, his apology rings more like a lie to get Phoenix relaxed around him so he'll fall for the trap.
You still have yet to point out a single incident in the game where Zak acts like a caring, non-jerkish individual. We're still waiting.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
And again, even IF he had paid Olga a lot of money (which is never stated in canon!) it does not justify an assault. Your comparison was one of someone abusing another person over a long period of time. Olga did no such thing. This was a SINGLE, ISOLATED incident.
Yes, Zak may have thought he was justified. So does EVERY criminal ever! They all think they're justified. That's the POINT. Dahlia thought her murders were justified. Manfred thought his murder was justified. Engarde thought his hit on Corrida was justified. Godot thought his murder of Misty was justified at the time, though he later regretted it, he still realized what he'd done was wrong and he deserved to be held accountable for it. Zak may have thought he was justified, just as every criminal ever does, but that doesn't make his actions any less jerkish.
Yes, Zak may have thought he was justified. So does EVERY criminal ever! They all think they're justified. That's the POINT. Dahlia thought her murders were justified. Manfred thought his murder was justified. Engarde thought his hit on Corrida was justified. Godot thought his murder of Misty was justified at the time, though he later regretted it, he still realized what he'd done was wrong and he deserved to be held accountable for it. Zak may have thought he was justified, just as every criminal ever does, but that doesn't make his actions any less jerkish.
Well I'd say it's highly likely.
Olga is a professional dealer, plant her in a casino and you could make millions. I don't imagine criminal underworld henchmen of this caliber are cheap.
Besides minor aggravations everyday = lots of stress
Major Aggravation in one day = lots of stress.
Even though it was a single isolated incident the end result is the same. Even worse high levels of stress in one burst may trigger a schizophrenic episode and all the dangerous effects with it. While it's possible for Zak to have suffered a schizophrenic episode he didn't live long enough after for us to determine this.
Also I wouldn't judge Godot for his murder, it was justice. A necessary deed to fight evil. Mannfred and co's activities were actually evil besides Zak didn't commit murder it's nowhere near the same scale.
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And AGAIN, even IF Zak suspected that Olga had cheated him, he had NO RIGHT to be that angry about it considering he was using her to cheat PHOENIX. Being upset about being cheated in a cheat is called hypocrisy! It makes you a JERK.
Sure he had right to be angry, she was a professional not doing her job. Maybe it was hypocritical but being doublecrossed is never nice.
Besides Phoenix cheated far more often that we know of.
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No one will hire Phoenix! Phoenix isn't choosing to take a crummy job, the mess with Zak's case has made it nearly impossible for him to find a job! And Zak has just come in to take Phoenix's only tenuous source of income away. And it doesn't matter if Zak was going to give Trucy the rights. Trucy is only 15, she still has school and growing up to do. She's not ready to support a household! Show business is a full time job, even if it's a "fun hobby". The funnest of hobbies become stressful as hell when your next meal depends on it.
The only credentials you need to be a professional gambler....is a little money my friend. Phoenix has skills to win loads of money. Sure a casino would throw him out eventually but he could move onto another casino and clean it out too. Would make a fortune.
Besides Trucy already supports her household and balances fame with school besides when times are tough work always comes before education. I'm sure some of the older generations would lecture us so.
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Oh yeah? Tell it to the parents.
I meant me personally. I can't speak for everyone it's a deeply personal thing. It's not just me neither I read a while back about a couple whose daughter was raped and murdered and the parents forgave the attacker without the attacker even displaying remorse so don't underestimate human forgiveness.Quote:
You still have yet to point out a single incident in the game where Zak acts like a caring, non-jerkish individual. We're still waiting.
Erm someone must either be ignoring my points or not listening. I don't think you have disproven them since you just offer conjecture and opinion:
Zak knows the exactly how long it's been since he left Trucy showing he deeply cares about that day and was remorseful.
He thanked and apologised to Phoenix.
"OH WAIT BUT THEN HE PROCEEDED TO CHEAT HIM!" Doesn't mean he wasn't genuine at that point in time, I'm sure the thanking was at least genuine but any opinion on this is purely conjecture you can take it at face value or you can try and interpret it as....like you said a set up.
However you can't say anything for definite whether it's genuine or not.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
minor aggravations everyday = lots of stress
This sounds like standard 21st century living. I suppose everyone you meet comits assault every few minutes?
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While it's possible for Zak to have suffered a schizophrenic episode he didn't live long enough after for us to determine this. While it's possible for Zak to have suffered a schizophrenic episode he didn't live long enough after for us to determine this.
Now this is really clutching at straws.
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If they apologise for killing a child it shows a desire to change their behaviour. If they've lived a good clean life since then or even intend to, I'd like to think I'd have it in my heart to forgive them.
This isn't 'should we forgive them'. This is that they're still a JERK for what they didn't even if they apologise SEVEN years later.
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Please remind me of it, was like 2:30 AM last night so I was a bit dozy sorry. One day of difference on the most influential day in your life does seem pretty important to me.
This:
icer wrote:
So he knows the date he'll be 'legally dead'. He doesn't want to appear while there's still risk.
See. This does not imply a positive interpretation. If he really missed Trucy, he'd accept Phoenix's offer for him to see her. After all, he 'promised' he'd see her again.
See. This does not imply a positive interpretation. If he really missed Trucy, he'd accept Phoenix's offer for him to see her. After all, he 'promised' he'd see her again.
Zak can't count to one? Look, once Zak is 'legally dead' the police will stiop wanting him for the crime. Of COURSE he keeps detailed track of how long it's been to the exact day. It's the days till his new life as Shadi Smith is secure! He wouldn't want to slip up on this.
'I have caused you much inconvenience, I fear'
This isn't much of an 'apology' anyway. And empty words. And as we've said ad infinitum, of course Zak would be 'polite' to him so Phoenix will lower his guard and not suspect the framing to come. Zak is a magician who performs superficial fake acts.
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How much would it have ruined him? Phoenix is crippling himself in that job anyway his poker skills are legendary if he played professionally as Zak shows a good amount of money could be made. Besides Zak was going to make his daughter rich enough to support both of them.
We have already rebutted this ad infinitum. I'll find my older posts.
Phoenix doesn't have the skills without Trucy to help with tells. Few places would be lax enough to let Trucy sit in on the games/. Other jobs? His reputation as 'forgin' attorney' means no one will hire him and even if they somehow didn't do a background check, how's he supposed to explain the resume? People don't just quit law and become a hobo poker pianist, he'd be rejected as a dubious option immediately.
Spoiler: Older posts. Zak did NOT think magic rights were ticket to insta-riches, Phoenix's reputation stood to be ruined permanently meaning Trucy can't use rights while under 18 anyway etc.
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so what we might view as bad behaviour he would see it as justifiable.
And that's what makes him a jerk. People always think their criminal and jerkish behavior is 'justifiable' including all those serial killers and mass-shooters.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
But if the depiction in the game at ALL frames Zak as 'maybe not a jerk' there would be EXPLICIT incidents where he acts in a caring, non-jerkish manner, not just ones which might be interpreted differently but aren't by the vast majority.
Ya could say that but thats like saying if I paid enough people to say "the sky is white" then those people who say the "Sky is blue" aren't 100% right to an outside observer. Just because everyone else doesn't see what I see doesn't make them right, I genuinely believe Zak was remorseful when he met with Phoenix again. Just because a thousand people say otherwise doesn't make me see that as not being an explicit incident of non-jerkish behaviour.
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This sounds like standard 21st century living. I suppose everyone you meet comits assault every few minutes?
Nope but most people get to let off steam with minor aggravations. Coming home at night relaxing seeing friends then some of the stress goes kaput. One major stressful event wouldn't get such relief.Quote:
Now this is really clutching at straws.
You doubt it? The stress/vulnerability model is a valid theory. See? The stress threshold is intrinsic to the individual and varies between people. Maybe Zak had a low one or the aggravation just too great. Seems valid to me.
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This isn't 'should we forgive them'. This is that they're still a JERK for what they didn't even if they apologise SEVEN years later.
Again! Judging a man for one sole action. Suppose after that apology he goes and rescues children from a burning building, or even after the murder seven years ago he dedicates his life to helping children in Africa? It's not fair for us to judge a man on one sole action alone in the greater context of his life.
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So he knows the date he'll be 'legally dead'. He doesn't want to appear while there's still risk.
See. This does not imply a positive interpretation. If he really missed Trucy, he'd accept Phoenix's offer for him to see her. After all, he 'promised' he'd see her again.
See. This does not imply a positive interpretation. If he really missed Trucy, he'd accept Phoenix's offer for him to see her. After all, he 'promised' he'd see her again.
No, he was too ashamed to face Trucy after having to abandon her besides so long as he is still legally alive and wanted the police would almost certainly be keeping tabs on Trucy and yoink he'd get sent to jail for a crime he didn't commit.
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Zak can't count to one? Look, once Zak is 'legally dead' the police will stiop wanting him for the crime. Of COURSE he keeps detailed track of how long it's been to the exact day. It's the days till his new life as Shadi Smith is secure! He wouldn't want to slip up on this.
There is nothing that makes this opinion more valid than my suggestion he was remembering the days he'd been separated from Trucy. Besides if he just wanted to know how long until he was declared legally dead he could just stamp an "X" years label (I can't remember how long was required) without keeping a day to day count.
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'I have caused you much inconvenience, I fear'
This isn't much of an 'apology' anyway. And empty words. And as we've said ad infinitum, of course Zak would be 'polite' to him so Phoenix will lower his guard and not suspect the framing to come. Zak is a magician who performs superficial fake acts.
This isn't much of an 'apology' anyway. And empty words. And as we've said ad infinitum, of course Zak would be 'polite' to him so Phoenix will lower his guard and not suspect the framing to come. Zak is a magician who performs superficial fake acts.
Again nothing to really confirm this. "I fear" suggests regret at what happened to Phoenix as in he's sorry for what he did. The whole "Politeness as a trap" thing is also conjecture but Phoenix was someone Zak respected as a result of the poker game years ago where he gauged Phoenix's personality. OH BUT WAIT HE CAN'T RESPECT A MAN HE CHEATS! Sure he can, people say Zak is completely a different person once he plays cards. Ever heard of fighters 'leaving the aggression' in the ring? I don't see why it's so hard to accept that Zak is a perfectly normal person until he gets his 'game face' on.
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Phoenix doesn't have the skills without Trucy to help with tells. Few places would be lax enough to let Trucy sit in on the games/. Other jobs? His reputation as 'forgin' attorney' means no one will hire him and even if they somehow didn't do a background check, how's he supposed to explain the resume? People don't just quit law and become a hobo poker pianist, he'd be rejected as a dubious option immediately.
Wrong, Trucy only sat in on 'big' games. As in Phoenix must have heard of the opponent before and they were professional renowned poker players. It's cheating really but considering he never lost to any normal or quite talented players I'm thinking he could pull some big money in casinos.
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No, passing on the magic rights to Trucy isn't a positive action, it's a selfish one also, he's going to be 'dead' so he wants HIS kid to get them so Valant can't. It's not about Trucy herself at all. Like the Gramarye name hasn't already been tarnished by the 7 years and the now-'admitted' murders anyway, it's not like it's an insta-ticket to riches like some people so inaccurately imply.
I remember this. I said that's a very negative INTERPRETATION (Read: NOT FACT) especially considering Zak DISAPPEARED FROM HIS OWN TRIAL TO MAKE VALANT LOOK INNOCENT!
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Trucy is still underage at 15 as she is at 8, meaning PHOENIX [who nobody who would ever deal with again after the Poker plot's potential success] would have to legally run the business, do the deals and sign the contracts. The ONLY excuse for 'not old enough' is if Trucy couldn't' use the magic rights till she's 18. In this scenario, the rights are still worthless to her for ANOTHER THREE YEARS.
Where's the evidence Zak was 'rolling in riches' before he disappeared? When he adopts her Trucy tells Phoenix she's glad she's changing school because Zak has not paid her owed school lunch fees for over a year. Either Zak is broke OR too much of a jerk even to pay the school what he owes.
Where's the evidence Zak was 'rolling in riches' before he disappeared? When he adopts her Trucy tells Phoenix she's glad she's changing school because Zak has not paid her owed school lunch fees for over a year. Either Zak is broke OR too much of a jerk even to pay the school what he owes.
The 'not old enough' thing is entirely conjecture since we don't know how the rights work. Also so what if Nick has to be her manager? It's not like he's the talent they are hiring he won't be a total turnoff. It's not like Eldoon spits in his noodles everytime he passes out a salty bowl. It's not like Hotti goes out of his way to make Nick uncomfortable in his clinic. Even the judge seems to treat Nick with something like reverence when he appears in court in 4-1.
True Zak could be broke, after all the Gramayre troupe had had issues what with the loss of Thalassa and Magnifi's sickness meaning they could have retracted from showbiz.
Also the fact the writers killed him does not automatically make him a jerk. Acro anyone? MIA?! She died early on? THE WRITERS MUST HATE HER!
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And that's what makes him a jerk. People always think their criminal and jerkish behavior is 'justifiable' including all those serial killers and mass-shooters.
Wrong you don't get what I mean, I mean he didn't have the full information of the situation. If he'd known Phoenix had foiled the plot and it wasn't a betrayal by Olga he probably would have acted differently. The information is the reason he sees it as justifiable and we don't. It's not right to judge him as a jerk as a result of something he couldn't possibly have known.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Pierre wrote:
You doubt it? The stress/vulnerability model is a valid theory. See? The stress threshold is intrinsic to the individual and varies between people. Maybe Zak had a low one or the aggravation just too great. Seems valid to me.
This diagram is for people with SCHIZOPHRENIA, a severe mental illness. There is no mention whatsoever of Zak having anything 'wrong' with him, and if you're going to suppose this even as a wild possibility, 'prove' how his other actions match up with its symptoms. While we're at it, let's justify every other character in the series' actions with some random mental illness!
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This isn't 'should we forgive them'. This is that they're still a JERK for what they didn't even if they apologise SEVEN years later.
Again! Judging a man for one sole action. Suppose after that apology he goes and rescues children from a burning building, or even after the murder seven years ago he dedicates his life to helping children in Africa? It's not fair for us to judge a man on one sole action alone in the greater context of his life.
You forgot my other part. '...And they're about to burn your house down'. Zak's about to frame Phoenix and ruin his life for something he didn't really do. We are judging Zak in a multitude of actions spanning over 7 years.
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So he knows the date he'll be 'legally dead'. He doesn't want to appear while there's still risk.
See. This does not imply a positive interpretation. If he really missed Trucy, he'd accept Phoenix's offer for him to see her. After all, he 'promised' he'd see her again.
See. This does not imply a positive interpretation. If he really missed Trucy, he'd accept Phoenix's offer for him to see her. After all, he 'promised' he'd see her again.
No, he was too ashamed to face Trucy after having to abandon her besides so long as he is still legally alive and wanted the police would almost certainly be keeping tabs on Trucy and yoink he'd get sent to jail for a crime he didn't commit.
And what evidence do you have of this interpretation? None. None at all. Zak never seems ashamed about anything else. If he was counting down the days since he saw Trucy when he knew he wouldn't see Trucy anyway, why bother? You're supposed to be providing evidence of a caring, unselfish action which is explicit in reasonable interpretation.
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The 'not old enough' thing is entirely conjecture since we don't know how the rights work.
We know that in our society, and supposedly Phoenix's society, people under 18 are not adults so they can't legally run a business or sign contracts without a guardian signing too. This is just standard. To use her rights and run the magic show business, Phoenix would have to run and sign things for legal purposes. And nobody would deal with him if Zak's plot had worked!
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Also so what if Nick has to be her manager? It's not like he's the talent they are hiring he won't be a total turnoff. It's not like Eldoon spits in his noodles everytime he passes out a salty bowl. It's not like Hotti goes out of his way to make Nick uncomfortable in his clinic. Even the judge seems to treat Nick with something like reverence when he appears in court in 4-1.
They're not doing a business deal with him, the Poker Cheat and Forgin' Attorney, who'll no doubt cheat and rip them off and forge stuff. And you describe treatment when Zak's new character assassination ploy failed.
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Also the fact the writers killed him does not automatically make him a jerk. Acro anyone? MIA?! She died early on? THE WRITERS MUST HATE HER!
I believe I dealt with this before. Quote:
I mean he didn't have the full information of the situation. If he'd known Phoenix had foiled the plot and it wasn't a betrayal by Olga he probably would have acted differently. The information is the reason he sees it as justifiable and we don't. It's not right to judge him as a jerk as a result of something he couldn't possibly have known.
That makes it worse. Reasonable people usually wait till they have the facts so they know what retaliation they take is justified. JERKS don't.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Quote:
This diagram is for people with SCHIZOPHRENIA, a severe mental illness. There is no mention whatsoever of Zak having anything 'wrong' with him, and if you're going to suppose this even as a wild possibility, 'prove' how his other actions match up with its symptoms. While we're at it, let's justify every other character in the series' actions with some random mental illness!
No no you misunderstand, the model suggests that stress TRIGGERS Schizophrenia.
I believe that makes my point ok. Zak gains massive stress and snaps and has a schizophrenic episode in accordance with this model.
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You forgot my other part. '...And they're about to burn your house down'. Zak's about to frame Phoenix and ruin his life for something he didn't really do. We are judging Zak in a multitude of actions spanning over 7 years.
Well for starters Zak isn't responsible for ruining Phoenix's career really his only apology should be for how he had to look after Trucy.
The ONE action he did that is the main reason he's judged is because of the framing.
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And what evidence do you have of this interpretation? None. None at all. Zak never seems ashamed about anything else. If he was counting down the days since he saw Trucy when he knew he wouldn't see Trucy anyway, why bother? You're supposed to be providing evidence of a caring, unselfish action which is explicit in reasonable interpretation.
Well the evidence seems there to me. He was given a 'remorseful' sprite showing that he can be ashamed. He keeps a locket with a picture of his dear daughter on him at all times. We don't know if he'd planned on NOT seeing her. He could've arrived at the Borscht Bowl club and seeing Phoenix brought back all the guilt of abandoning Trucy THEN he can't bear the thought of seeing her.
Besides I think your "he was counting the days until he was dead" idea is ludicrous as it's a simple set date doesn't require a countdown. Your interpretation doesn't really hold up.
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We know that in our society, and supposedly Phoenix's society, people under 18 are not adults so they can't legally run a business or sign contracts without a guardian signing too. This is just standard. To use her rights and run the magic show business, Phoenix would have to run and sign things for legal purposes. And nobody would deal with him if Zak's plot had worked!
Again you say it would ruin everything? The Borscht Bowl clubs' big attraction only rings true to those in certain circles. I doubt a mother wanting to hire the famous magician Trucy Gramayre! Would particularly care that once upon a time Trucy's manager had cheated at poker. Besides not everyone in the world is a paragon, I'm sure at least some employers would chuckle an go "Heh yeah I tried that once too." This act would only really stop his card act at the Borscht Bowl club it's not as influential as you make out.
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I believe I dealt with this before.
And I believe I've dealt with more or less all of this before but no one seems happy with keeping their own opinions.
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That makes it worse. Reasonable people usually wait till they have the facts so they know what retaliation they take is justified. JERKS don't.
Not if the last fact was written in invisible ink. It's not like an investigation where Edgeworth might go "Hmmm I could prosecute him with this but there's something missing", Zak had no reason to believe there was anything wrong, she's a con artist....conning is what she does. When the ploy failed it's not a far jump to conclude she had betrayed him, in fact I'd say 'he must've foiled the plot of a professional dealer' is a bigger gap to leap for a conclusion.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Since games are a limited form of narrative, the game developers go out of their way to make characters actions very obvious, so we know whether we are meant to think of them as good guys or jerks. SO! Let us *ALL* drop our interpretations for both sides and examine CANON FACTS ONLY regardless of any other outside reasoning.
Zak Gramarye:
*Is initially introduced as a generically named, suspicious drifter. Not someone you're immediately endeared to
*Is shown as being strong and brash, not someone who needs our protection
*Zak is NOT mentioned as schizophrenic in canon
*Zak did NOT show remorse for assaulting Olga in canon
*It is NOT mentioned that Zak paid Olga money for her services
*The fact that Zak hired a con artist to help him con someone AT ALL is jerkish, multiplied by the fact that he was doing it to con his daughter's guardian
*Zak does NOT show remorse for hitting Brushel
*Zak did NOT pay Trucy's lunches, despite not being mentioned as being broke, and in fact having the money to hire Kristoph initially
*Zak disappears when he is about to be sentenced, thus he did not disappear to protect Valant but to protect himself, with no regard as to what was about to happen to Phoenix or that the police may shift their investigation to Valant in his absence
*Trucy is eager to accept a stranger as a new father immediately
*There is no mention of Zak having found a home for Trucy in canon
*Zak does NOT ask Phoenix's permission to dump his daughter on him
*Zak returns 7 years later and gives Phoenix the rights to the Gramarye magic for Trucy, despite having been able to sign them over her in the first place. (He did not have to "die" to legally sign them over)
*Trucy is shown to have suffered emotionally over being abandoned by Zak, yet Zak never seems to have considered that his actions may have affected Trucy, or at least he does not mention so in CANON
*Zak does nothing to financially help Phoenix with his daughter in 7 whole years
*Zak refuses to see Trucy, despite having promised to see her again
*Zak does not thank Phoenix for helping with his daughter, showing NO gratitude whatsoever
*Zak's debatable "apology" is immediately followed with a scam, thus making it seem as if the writers appeared for it to be insincere
*Zak tries to frame Phoenix for a crime Phoenix was not committing, despite having no real motive to do so, and that it would cut off his daughter's livelihood
Now let's compare this to a more gray character.
Lamiroir/Thalassa:
*Is initially introduced as a graceful, lovely, mysterious, quiet and yet polite person with a beautiful voice. Seems the type you'd be immediately endeared to
*Is shown with a child whom she protects and worries about, and whom also shows a strong loyalty to her in return
*Does not assault anyone, verbally or physically, despite being put in many stressful situations
*Is attacked, therefor making her a vulnerable victim and fueling the desire to defend her
*Is actually blind, making her more vulnerable again
*Is actually suffering amnesia, making her more vulnerable AGAIN
*Thanks you and is extremely grateful (to both Apollo and Phoenix, actually, so she does this twice)
So you see, by the time Lamiroir is revealed to be Thalassa and we get these less desirable traits:
*Does not mention Machi again after his case
*Question remains as to why she abandoned Apollo at all
*Does not immediately tell her children that she is their mother
We have already been predisposed to feeling sympathetic towards her. And JUST to pile it on, we even get:
*Was shot in the face and lost her memories/family
*Her own father shipped her off to some foreign country, alone, with no memory or vision and covered it up as a murder
*Her first child was had at 17/18, implying she had a troubled home life to begin with perhaps to have a child so young?
*Phoenix even states that she was always between Zak and Valant and was in *danger* because of it.
*It is implied that her second husband, Zak, is in fact a jerk.
Just to ENSURE that we are sympathetic to Thalassa, despite the gray area of her actions, we are initially shown a sweet, serene, and mothering side of her to predispose us to liking her. Compare that to Zak, whom is initially introduced as some drifter no one cared about and whom had a lot of passports, making him seem like a shady con man. Even his NAME is Shadi. Then once their true identities are revealed, Thalassa is shown as nothing but sincerely grateful despite any inconvenience this may cause her. Zak, on the other hand, never once says "thank you" and even proceeds to try and frame Phoenix.
So two characters placed under similar circumstances (the fake "death", the secret identities, the questionable abandoning of their children, both faced stressful and life-threatening situations) yet clearly the developers wrote them in such a way so that we are led into believing that Lamiroir/Thalassa = good, and Zak = jerk.
Anyone with basic reading comprehension should be able to puzzle this out.
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Re: Zak Gramarye is a JERK (Spoilers lol~)
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Gerkuman wrote:
Not that that always works. I mean, I'm not that sympathetic towards Thalassa. But I know that that's my interpretation based on the canonical facts, and me filling in the blanks with my opinion.
Haha, granted, we are allowed our own opinion of characters. No one says you have to LIKE Thalassa (or agree with her actions/think they were the right thing to do), but there's no denying that she is painted in a more sympathetic light.
Compare that to Zak whom is pretty much exclusively made to look like a jerk. This doesn't mean you can't LIKE Zak, but please like him for the jerk character he is (I do!). Don't try to change him from what he was written as.
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