Oh, gee, look, a crit thread! Too bad it's probably dead due to the forums going down. Oh well, I'll post anyway. I'm using this sketch because I used more realistic proportions than my usual giant eyed shoujo styled goodness. I used no reference and did it purely by memory. (After days of being a creeper and examining peoples' facial shapes, too! )



I'll just quickly add a note about the things I know are wrong with it: The shoulders are uneven, the neck is also uneven, the clothes are very flat and without folds, the jaw line is kind of wonky, her hair lacks texture, the eyes are too high (I blame my wide eyed shoujo style! *shot*), the neck doesn't match up quite right, the eyes aren't quite the same size, the eyebrows are at different heights, there's probably issues with the skull that I can't put my finger on, and some other minor nit-picky details. *lets out deep breath*

So, in other words, I want a more "technical" review that points out more fine things that I didn't point out up there, possibly with that fancy red line thingie. I'm not looking to jump into a realistic style, since it's not my cup of tea for the most part, but I do want to learn better proportions and such.

Phew, that was a bit more long winded than I ended for it to be.

I just posted in this thread earlier on this morning so it's definitely active :) I'm actually busy making a comic for the next week and a bit though so unless you can wait, I'm going to try to make my posts brief.

Firstly and most importantly, I'm not sure what kind of proportions you're expecting to learn if you're not willing to learn realistic ones. All professional anime artists can draw realistically. I use to read Naruto comics, and the artist of Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto doesn't by any means have a realistic style. I'm sure that we all know how he draws characters by now, right?

Well, he can draw realistically too:-


Being able to draw realistically is not an unachievable thing to go for. I'm not sure why new artists seem to think that realistic is too hard core just because it's advanced looking. All it is is different levels of detail. All art works on the same principals of proportion, and if you want to learn proportion properly, then the proportions you use in Eastern styled art is the same as realistic Asians. I kid you not. Once you learn how to draw a realistic face and you know what makes it realistic, then you'll find you can enlarge the eyes in a way that still looks right and pretty, shrink the mouth and make it look cute, and simplify the face so that it's elegant. You may even find that you're no longer as interested in the more shoujo style once you learn true proportion cause the eyes are too large for your taste and try a new combination. This is the magical thing people called style :) It'll eventually be what defines you as an artist.

OK, just had a quick look through your DA gallery, and I'm pretty convinced now that some realism would do some great stuff to help out with your art. I could give you a redline critique on this picture, but I think a general critique would be far more useful to you. I think that this picture that you have linked is definitely one of the pictures I like the most cause you've put more effort into this one to make it more realistic to you. That's why I like it more (I'm not bias against shoujo art styles. I happen to be a big fan of shoujo eyes myself. Card Captor Sukura FTW ).

I can give you help, but you need to be willing to accept critique that will require you to draw in a realistic fashion, and secondly, use references. I know that this sounds pretty hard core, but if you're wanting to improve, this will make a seriously HUGE difference cause you'll learn how to not get the jaw wrong, or the eyes wonky or the shoulders off etc... I promise. Art is always fun. It doesn't mean that you can't get better at it though :) I'm not sure how old you are, but I learnt proportion when I was a teenager (16ish?), and through doing art for fun I am now at a point with my art that I'm selling it and people want to buy it. That's only something that has happened in the last few years for me, but it's a great feeling.



The above is proof. I drew HEAPS off reference. Still do. It's taught me alot of things I can pass onto you, and I'm sure I can explain it in a way that doesn't combat your current art style too much :)

Are you game?

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:D oh my, how i have missed this thread.

ah herm, anyways i'd loveeee some crit?
of my creepy little kay, http://shmirbykirby.deviantart.com/art/Kay-Faraday-210401560?q=gallery%3Ashmirbykirby%2F27352143&qo=9
i've noticed her jaw line is HUGEEE, so yeah you know nothing i can do 'bout that right now.
but yeah, i'd love you guys to crit it for my ^^ thanks!
i'd also i like to say, im no big fan of the word manga, 'cos i don't like having to draw a certian way, so if you critt it, please dont use it :)?

so very happy court records is back:D

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Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean I didn't want to learn realistic proportions; I'm just not looking to absolutely transform my style into full blown realism, like yours is. I apologize; I must have come across as really... terrible.

I know a lot of things need help; I've been working on it, hence the more realistic one. But I can't get it out right. I'm not a very good artist, I admit. You don't need to critique it if you don't want to. I've just been losing my drive massively lately and I need SOMETHING to help me with that, and a critique sounds like a good one. I hope.

And oh gosh I hope it was not my main gallery; most of the stuff in there actually kind of stinks. I don't put a whole ton of effort into CGing... I actually sort of hate it; I prefer pencil art to the max. I actually CG for others, but this is going off-track. Yes, I'm game. I'm sorry if I came across as not wanting a critique or not being willing to try out your advice. I didn't mean to at all and now I feel terrible. I actually do use references to an extent, by the way. I've been looking into stocks, but I'm having trouble finding good ones.

I should probably just real quick give a quick overview of my problem areas: Clothing folds, lighting, and perspective. Even with references, I just can't do it. I always mess up royally. Tips plz.

(On a side note, I accidentally ran over that sketch I posted with my chair and now it's all messed up, much to my utter disdain. So, I can't apply corrections to the picture specifically. Sorry... )

EDIT: I thought I should clarify: I would prefer to keep the more cartoony style of drawing eyes, mouths, and noses, and that's about it. I don't really care if the rest goes more realistic; I just like my giant shiny anime styled eyes too much to give them up. Perhaps that'll help a little bit. Or not. Sorry if I'm still being stubborn.

Woah- settle down there ^^; It wasn't an attack at your artistic ego there. There's nothing wrong with you as an artist. This thread isn't about telling you that. There's only a certain amount an artist can learn on their own without help. I just wanted you to know that to help you, I'd have to give you instructions based off realistic proportions. I was just worried cause you said that you didn't want a realistic style of art ^^; (MY art isn't realistic as a side note- I can get close, but I'm a hybrid Eastern/western style of art. Neither end of the scale like my art much >.> Western l33tists say my art work is too anime >.> ).

Firstly- there's nothing wrong with your main gallery. Do you want me to post more art here of when I was first starting out? I may not have had the anime eyes (New Zealand didn't properly get anime till DBZ came out in my late teens) but I still had similar inconsistencies. It's what happens. It's not bad at all. You should compare your art with the best YOU can do, not the best others can do. Otherwise you'll just depress the heck out of yourself.

Second- CG. I hear you. Computer colouring sucks BIG time. I hate it so I know exactly what you mean. You don't need to do it though if you can scan traditional properly. I assume you use a tablet to CG? It makes things easier but if you've used what ever method you're using right now this long and don't like it, don't fight it. Come back to it later in a different way when you're more comfortable with drawing. About a year or so ago I wanted to learn to colour properly cause I was hit and miss with it. I tried it with digital and it gave me a headache. Then my friend Nani reintroduced me to coloured pencils. You know, the stuff you buy at stationary stores ISN'T the best colouring in pencil you can get. That's their student brand. Their pigment fades, blends horribly, the pigment is inconsistent, the leads break etc... Not the Artist quality stuff. Once I upgraded to that, I basically didn't look back at CGI. I still do a little CGI, just not much. Copics and Polychromos is what I colour with mostly now :)

Third- Stocks are great, but you need to know how to use IRL reference before it'll really help :<

OK, so I don't know if this will make you feel better, but I've franksteined your image to how I think it should be. Artist interpretation comes alot into this, but I felt it was better to show you it this way than with a redline to show kind of what I can see your art doing



Now, I did alot of tweaking to this, but don't worry- I'll list everything I did and why I did it. Please note, she looks alot younger in my version than yours did. I don't know if she was meant to be an adult or a teen, but for your style, just lengthen her nose and she'll feel older. I promise. IT adds elegance which = beautiful age.

• Eyes- Eyes for me are the most important part of the person to me cause most of the face's expression is there. That's why superheroes hide their eyes and fool everyone (Lol- Superman taking off his glasses XD) I haven't changed your eyes at all- they're too simplified to cause drama but if you want to make your art give impact, you'll need to learn how to add more detail to them. However, I've lowered them so they rest in the center of the hight of the head. I may have done them a little too low which is why she seems young but they feel right to me there. It's not my art thought so... Actually- I forgot to lower the eye brows. They should be a bit above the eyes. Normally they're an eyewidth in height above the eye. Yours take up most of the socket though so they'd be just above.
• I've lowered her nose. Simplest noses are the best for females, but it's nice to know how a nose works so you can change the angle of it. You can't use this nose on all angles D: (Actually, I'm fighting noses right now with a Chinese character I'm drawing. I can only draw it on a few angles yet T.T) The nose is theoretically as long as the eye is wide. I ignore that rule. Short is young and cute, long is older and elegant.
• moved the mouth up and to the left the middle of the mouth should be under the middle of the nose
• Moved the jaw cause I moved the mouth. Is she asian? She has a very pointed chin.
• I shrank the ear, retilted it, and lowered it. The height of the nose is basically from the bridge of the nose to the bottom in length, and should be the same height. The ears look weird if you make then anything else I've found.
• Brought in her shoulder. It should be the width of her head in distance from the middle of her body (that's confusing with a 3/4 view O.o )
• Brought in her boob on both arms. Women's chests aren't much wider than their heads- unless their breasts are as big as their heads (I've seen it D: )
• Tilted up her collar bone so they point at her shoulders.
• Her neck was pretty ok. Don't give it an hour glass curve, but anything that gets bigger at the bottom is fine. Dont' go overboard though- the broader at the bottom, the manlier the neck. Just keep it in the middle of the head.

One BIG point I didn't fix is the hair. When you shade it, use long strokes and in the direction of the hair. IT'll look far more realistic. It'll be hard at first but stick to it. It's worth it.

I'll give more pointers later, but I'm going out for lunch so I have to flee. Golden Luxray- I'll get back to you next, k?

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'ello Arkillian, I just have one quick question.

I read up there, that you reference a lot when you draw. So... do you have any specific galleries you refer to for poses on dA or any other places? Because I'm having troubles doing poses in sprites and general drawings. Thanks in advance! :>

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Sorry; I'm kind of really shaky about my self confidence, I'll admit. And I was really tired, in a bad mood anyway, and I felt bad that I had made a bit of a slip of words. And then it kind of tumbled down to my general issues with drawing, and I overreacted a bit. I apologize for that. (Also, I guess you noticed, but I have comparison syndrome. I compare myself to pros in everything I do, from cooking to sports to table manners. Probably why I have the aforementioned issues. )

Thank you very much; I can see the improvements. I actually REALLY half-baked everything but the face, but thank you anyway. xD

- I did actually intend for her to be more mature. ^^; But young is okay, too.

- I don't know what race I was intending her to be; I was just drawing from memory how I had see some faces the past couple days. I think I must have seen a lot of heart shaped faces or something cause I think that's what happened. We'll call her "alien" for now.

- I actually do reference myself in a mirror more than using stocks, if that's what you mean by real life referencing; the stock thing is new. ^^; I guess it's time to be a creeper again and draw random people off the street... o_O

- I CG once a month, for my watchers on dA, so I think I can push through it, but yeah, I've kind of ditched it for now. I swear, I like my (extremely) small pool of watchers too much. I wish I could afford high quality colored pencils (trust me, I kind of drool over them at the art store), but alas, I am a poor 15 year old who can't legally get a job in her state yet. ;A;

- Now, with the shoulders, I actually was intending her to be facing forward but with her head tilted away from the camera. It's kind of hard to tell, I suppose.

- With the eyes, on that one, I was actually having trouble cause I screwed up with my pencils and I lack a good eraser. D: I admit I do lean towards simplicity, so you definitely have a point; I've been experimenting a little with trying to make them prettier, though. Are there any tips you can offer up? Here's some stand alone eyes with more how I usually draw them: http://icey-chan.deviantart.com/gallery ... s#/d3k7uq3 (Somewhat unrelated story: I actually developed my current eye style from practicing realism. derp derp dunno how that happened. They used to be really narrow, REALLY HUGE, and with no pupils.)

- I admit, I do have trouble with ears. I have an on-going battle with them raging. Thanks for the tips on that one. ^^

- I actually also have troubles on noses. xD They throw me! I have so much trouble getting them right that I just simplify them as much as I possibly can. @_@ What really causes trouble for me is forward view with the noses.

I'll take note of the proportion sizes for today's sketch and try to redraw that one. Considering I ran over it despite the fact that I actually liked it a lot. Sorry for ranting a lot; I'm a bit talkative, if you haven't noticed. (And I would talk even MORE if I didn't have to go. )

Um... there's a few stock photography people I follow on DA for some things, but I don't really follow one gallery to rule them all. Some of it is just drawing lots of poses which are loud and fun. I have a book on facial expressions- this helps alot to convey a message to the viewer. Getting a pose right sometimes is just a brutal hacking through google images before you find something. I don't tend to referance poses unless it's like a gun slinger or something where I want the character to look like they're doing a specific task I know nothing about. Mostly what I research is inspiration. My current comic Narcolepsy has me researching alot of genre stuff. To come up with the themes for people's dream selves I did some research on meanings of things. One of my characters, Zack has spikey hair like this. I knew that I wanted him to have big white wings, but an angel theme is SO over done and didn't add personality, so I did some research and I for that ravens suited my theme, and then found that there was such a thing as a white raven. At that point, a light went on in my head and I did this design for his dream form and showed some of my friends. One remarked that it looked like a Tengu- a Raven demon in Japanese legend that had certain aspects which matched the character PERFECTLY. It's one of those funny things. When inspiration hits me, it hits hard, and it ends up adding so much to character.

I've also been doing alot of research on how to draw Chinese for one of my characters, I knew that I wanted to give him Dog ears so I researched Chinese dogs and came up with the Chinese crested dog which has the CUTEST little ears and was adorable on so many levels. My chinese character's dream from now has this dog, and Steampunk as it's theme, and it drives a big steam powered ship around the dream realm.

It's more... little things like this that I research. I do research poses- I should do it more often actually cause my poses are starting to become standard. For sprites, I think you should focus more on character themes, and getting something REALLY unusual rather than focusing on their different poses. Once you have a theme, then you can start introducing aspects of that theme into their costume, like Jake Marshal is a typical cowboy cop who has cactus all over the place and keeps swigging mysterious liquids, and has a western dressage over his cop outfit. You can see in his concept sketches what they came up with for his design. The poses will come easily once you have the theme. I mean, a boring character in Phoenix Wright is not a person with plain hair, but someone with a plain personality. Make them loud :)

For general drawings, I can only suggest just doing lots of sketches of poses before you setting on your final one. Think about the picture as a whole, and VERY lightly draw circles and lines and stuff to lay out everythign on the page, but in a way that takes no more than 30 seconds to draw. Don't even detail faces. Just direction. See how it looks. You wont always like it, but you can always change it fast. Stick figures helps my friend too. Just be really open about poses. Finding poses is hard. It's easier to make up a pose and then Frankenstein the body together with 5 reference shots.

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Everyone suffers from that. I do sometimes too. You MUST remember though that you WILL improve no matter how fast you do cause every picture you draw teaches you something. However, this is to say that you'll be 40 and still drawing a better version of what you draw now if you don't get pointers on how to improve :) Not everyone becomes a Devinci. Most wont. I know alot of artists that would wish there were as good as you at art. Sounds stupid, but it's true. Some people honestly believe they'll never be able to draw so when they do, they don't try and it comes out wonky. Just compare current you to 1 year ago you. Did you improve? Yes. That is what is important. Aspire from other artists. Don't pretend to be them. You'll become your own artist in the end :)



No you didn't. As I said, there are a few rules and tips to learn. It'd be a bad picture for you if you knew better and still did it. You didn't though so it was the best you can do. Don't beat yourself up over it. It honestly was a great first attempt at realism.



Urgh- I wondered if I screwed that up T.T Imagine her with a longer nose and you'll be fine ^^; It's hard to tell age in shoujo styles



Don't call her alien- she isn't one. Just generic is fine. I was just asking cause she had a pointed chin. If you round it off a little it'd be more effeminate in a western way. I asked because I found chinese had pointed faces but they're softer shaped generally too.



I wouldn't life draw. Stay with photos for now. I use to use heaps of stock referances then I took 2 terms of life drawing and realised that I had to relearn perspective. Unless you want to know the human form familiarly, stock photos are fine and less stalkerish XD The problem is translating 3D to 2D. Going off a mirror should be ok cause the mirror flattens the perspective.



Urgh- don't draw for watchers, eh? I know this seems stupid, but it actually makes art less fun if you force yourself to use stuff you don't like. Best to stick to what you enjoy using. If they don't like it then they can stick it. You're not going to get better in a medium you don't enjoy using. Question- what program do you use, and do you lineart by hand then scan it or draw directly into the computer?



... it was a little cryptic ^^; Mine is mostly forwards anyways- it's only slightly facing the front so if you make the arms fleshed out equally on both sides and the collar bone in the centre then that'll be the biggest difference ^^;



Uh- I'd look for a tutorial on drawing anime eyes. There's alot of detail you can put in to make them prettier and not lose the shoujo feel. This one may help



No problem. Ears are hard on anime. I should know. DBZ ears are elephant sized. Took me ages to bleed that out of my style.



With noses facing forwards, I just draw the bottom of the nose and a line offset from the middle down the length to show form. Like in my avatar (That's Sheena dressed up as Lady Gaga XD



You're kidding- you seen my reply comments? O.o Art is more about visuals to explaining visuals take AGES. What you need to do is write down a list of goals. Simple goals like Improving eyes, improving expression, faces, form etc... Boil your goals to easy to tackle things and research them. Draw 100 eyes. 50 of men, 50 of women but in different expressions and styles. That kinda of thing. Find something you like. Do that and bit by bit learn your form. You want to learn body proportion? Find a tutorial on it and try a few different types. Not just the cute ones. Try chibi and 1:6, sure, but also try 1:8. IF you're wanting to try how someone else draws it, get permission first, or try it and don't post it. Try different styles so you know WHY you don't like drawing realism. I know I hate using watercolours- not cause they're scarey looking, but because I tried it and didn't like it.

Last thing, proper graphite pencils and ink pens aren't expensive and generally the quality doesn't vary alot. I do all my pencil renders in this pencil set which cost me $30NZD, but it's cheaper in America ($20USD). Blending stumps are non essential but handy for getting rid of pencil marks for a smooth look. the ink pens I use are Copic Multiliner which I admit aren't cheap (Amazon have them for $20 for a set though so that's not too bad- it's more than that in NZ), but there are other ink brands which have a similar product and work just as nicely. Having a solid ink line can make a WORLD of difference to the quality of your art. I use to use only the 0.3mm pen nibs, but I now use 0.03, 0.3, and 0.5mm pens for my art for line variation. I'd suggest getting 0.3mm and going from there. I suggest a retractable eraser for fine erasing, I use Uni auto eraser because it's fine, and a 2H pencil so that the lines are easy to erase. A mechanical pencil is SO handy for this. I use a Faber Castell one, it's nice to hold cause it's triangle and has tiny rubber grips. Only issue i have with it is that it only holds 0.7mm leads which aren't common in New Zealand and they're larger than normal. IT's not a finishing pencil though so it's ok. If you finish in pencil though, you'll want a sealant or your pictures will die a blurry death. Not a huge issue with sketches, more of an issue with 3B+ pencil leads.

Oh, and ALWAYS have a sharp pencil

Sorry for comment spam guys. I REALLY have to work on my comic now- Haven't forgotten you Golden Luxray! Send me a note via DA if you need me to get back faster- k? You know me there I'm sure.

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Let's see, where to start...

- The alien thing was a joke. xD

- I use Photoshop, and I USED to pen my linearts then scan them before I realized a couple things: I can't un-do my mistakes easily (and I made a lot), the lineart wasn't as clean, and it made using layers Hell. (The thing about CGing with me is that I hate the process to the extent that I avoid it most times, but like the final product enough that I do it anyway. Cause it looks so clean. We have a love-hate relationship. )

- I can happily say I do have some nice pens I got for Christmas a couple years ago! I use them for linearting on more serious traditional stuff, although my really fine pen is, unfortunately, running out of ink, and I think I'm going to have to run to the art store and buy a new one. And I got a set of nice sketching pencils I've been using the past few days. The main problem is that nice colored pencils cost 5+ bucks each, which I really can't afford if I want more colors than one or two to work with. And that's not even getting into the price of Copics... (8 dollars a pop... ) And I keep meaning to ask my mom to get me some more mechanical pencils, since I actually LOVE working with them, but I keep forgetting. Dangit.

- That actually wasn't my first attempt at realism. xD My first attempts were... Well, you don't want to see them. I'll just leave it at that. I've dabbled in three different types of drawing, I'd say: Cartooning (my main style when I was a child, which had anime influence from playing too much Kirby and Animal Crossing but eh), realism (I dabbled in it a lot more when I was younger, and read bunches of art books. I learned a lot of basic stuff from those little books that has thankfully stuck with me; I still try and draw realism occasionally to see what I can implement from it), and of course, the anime thing. I think the reason why I'm not big on realism probably has to do with my affinity for cute things, if that's... a proper excuse. I actually am considering doing a bit more cartoon work, although that really doesn't help me develop a lot, does it? xD

- Well, don't worry; I decided against redrawing the picture anyway. I'll practice eyes for now. I do love drawing dozens of eyes all over a piece of paper... I question sometimes if it creeps people out. (I'm doing this "sketch a day" thing. It's getting harder and harder, but I like to think I've improved due to it, at least a little. So, I will definitely be drawing at least 170 or so more things this year. ;P)

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm defending myself too much; I know a lot of people do that when they get critiques. xD Or replying too much... Hm.

OK? ^^;



OK- I totally have your answer then. Scan your page at 300dpi or higher, then go to "Image", "Adjustments", then "Levels", and swing the levels bar till your art looks black and white, then go image adjustment and click 'threshold'. This will turn it black and white. The next thing you do is make this a new layer by duplicating the layer. Then select the magic wand tool, and deselect 'contiguous' in the top of the screen, and select all of the white, and push the delete key. After that, you can lock the transparency of this layer by clicking the checker looking button at the top of the layer's window. This will stop you colouring the transparent areas, and let you recolour your black. You then colour on layers above or below your black layer, and it'll leave it untainted. You can even flood fill thin without the halo effect around your black that you get. Minor lineart changes can be done before you lock the transparency with the pencil tool (Under the brush tool), and when you're done, shrink the image 40% or so and you'll get the pretty antialias look where there's no jagged edges and it's all crisp. It's how I digitally colour when I'm bothered.



Don't worry about getting expensive stuff. I used cheap pencils right up till a year or two ago. I drew this Doctor Who picture with the student colouring in pencils. Notice the white bits all over the page? That's the biggest difference besides it not blending as nicely, and the colours having inconsistencies. Student coloured pencils are fine. IT's the ARTIST that makes the medium they use good. the the medium it's self. Copics are expensive- I concure. I imported some from America and it cost me the earth. I must admit that I got 80 at once though. They're cheap to run once you have the pen though. IF you're going to use pencil for renders, I'd use a woodless pencil. They're nicer to work with cause you can tilt them.



Are you trying to put yourself down again? Please don't. IT doesn't matter if it's your first or 100th try. IT was the best you could do with the knowledge you have.



A sketch a day is good but make sure you're practising new things every time, and look at how others draw eyes- anime, realstic, western. Everything. You can take something from any art style. They're all based of real people. Don't be afraid of 'tainting' your style. Find what you like and make it work.



It is a little. I hope that you're able to take something away from this and be more confident next time. I don't want to spam the crit thread with consolation about art. IF you're still uncertain, I'm Arkillian at Deviantart. Just pop me a note and I'll talk as much as you like there :)

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... OK? I'm not sure why manga is an offensive term. I'd never use it as a put down intentionally. I take it that you get labelled as having the style? I guess it's like me being called realism when I'm not >.>

How did you lineart this? Digitally or traditionally?

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Alrightie, I'll try the Photoshop stuff once I'm a little more awake and things like "magic pen tool" don't seem so much like gibberish to me. And my first attempts at realism were from when I was about 7, so no, I wasn't putting myself down on that one. They didn't even have chins! xD

I'll stop replying now, for the sake of not spamming your thread. Sorry for being defensive; I wanted to take the crit like a grown up and say "Oh, cool, okay, I'll definitely try that, thanks for pointing out my mistakes", but I guess I didn't. It's actually the first time I've gotten one. Ever. Although I doubt that's a very good excuse for not handling it with grace, all things considered...

Soo, I guess I'll just say a final thank you for your help. The eye tutorial you linked to is already helping.

Urgh- no, that's not what I meant ^^; I don't mind helping people feel better about their art at all. I know how hard it can be to start out in a sea of fantastic artists and try to stand out. Heck, I still go to conventions and get ignored cause my art isn't desu desu enough, or isn't western enough right now. What I'm trying to do taking this off the forum is saving you from having to discuss the improvement of your art in public. There's alot to talk about- not cause there's alot wrong, but it's a general critique, so there will be a conversation exchange, and that can take a while.

I don't want to sound like I'm talking down on you, that's not what I'm here for. What I'm trying to do is improve your art. As long as you don't tell me that it's too hard and you take my advice, I don't mind giving it. You just have alot of questions which I'll totally answer. I just don't want to do it here :) PM me on my DA. My DA account link should be in my signature.

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Well its just verybody telling me i draw manga. it just annoys me; hey ho, no worries.

the lineart on this was orginaly tradition, but then i redid it on the computer.

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Hi there Arkillian, it's me Kimchi-Artist , good luck with your comic progress.

I prefer CG to traditional methods actually hahaha.

I'm really grateful that this thread comes back to live as I started to practice realism a lot lately, which I'm not really good at OTL.
Well, actually this one is semi-realistic?


I wonder why but I never seem to get it right , critiques are really appreciated =7=

Well, I'm not sure whether you mean you went over them digitally, or you scanned it and finished it digitally but the biggest thing that hits me is the lines. Kay herself isn't that bad, but the lineart is very jagged. Normally I don't mind a rough edge, but it feels like you wanted one clean line, when instead you got a congo line of many. I've considered to myself whether it's a style choice, and I can't see how it could be assisting the picture so I thought I'd bring it up. Correcting this with a tablet takes time erasing and redrawing edges till they're perfect, just like with an ink pen, but the other way of getting the line is by vectoring it. I don't know if you're interested in them, but they're really cool. Photoshop has the pen tool which does it, but it's not as easy to manipulate in that program. Illustrator is better for it.

Otherwise, besides being on a little bit of a slant to the right, and her key being a bit bent, There's not a huge amount I can say is wrong with her. Your art has drastically been improving since I first met you! I'm really happy with the new lot of fanart you're bringing out ^^ IF you can clean your lines on your line arts up a bit more, I'll see if I can give you a few more pointers, but very soon you'll be able to do alot of it yourself, I'm sure of it ^^ Great work hon ^^



Oh hey! You changed your user name I'll have to relearn it

Thank you- I have... 7 days to finish my comic. I'm actually worried now I may not have enough time! D: I'm going to try my best. If my answers are slow it's because I'm firing out a comic with ninja speed! Maybe!!

Puchi- I think you're being a bit hard on yourself cause there is actually alot of realistic proportion there (Oh wow- all these people getting better at art while CR was gone- This is actually really exciting for me! ) About the only think I can say is that he's getting there, but the eyes are still alot larger than a realistic eye is. I'm not sure how realistic you're aiming for here though... like a photo? Or realistic proportions but in a more comic fashion? If you still want the comic style but with realistic proportions, then just shrinking the eyes will cut it. If you want it to be more like a photo, then what you want is a reference so you can see more about the details. The exact shape of the nose, the nostrils, the shape the eye makes, the lips in their shape, certain edges would become blurred because they're a soft corner rather than a hard edge... things like that. Realism sadly isn't just erasing the lines. Oh, and you'll need to note gloss levels too. Se how you've given his skin a highlight and a low light? His hair is glossy so should have the same. See how you gave his eyes a white (omg- not wight T.T ) sheen? Do a larger version of that on his hair in the direction of his hair to so it's glossy. It'll give his hair some life :)

And wow- you guys have improved so much! I sound like a parent, but I'm honestly proud of you both ^^

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I'm sorry that my username change bothers you

Go Arkillian:keiko:

I'm actually aiming for the realistic proportion like a photo, now that you mentioned it I do realize
that the eye is really huge, oops.
I still have huge problems in noses and lips, so I will practice them more before going back here again OTL.
Ah, thanks for the pointer in the hair :D.

Sorry that I took long to reply, I took too much time to fix the picture =7=
I fixed the hair and made the eye smaller and some other things, is the eye the right size ?


I'm happy that I improved enough that I can make you proud
Actually I'm circling my room blushing from happiness

That's so cute XD

Sorry-I get attached to internet names since I don't know IRL ones, and until I get use to seeing your art with your name, I'll have HUGE issues remembering the name. Sorry :( That's why it upsets me when people change names. I'm too visual.

Don't worry about slow replies. I'm totally fine waiting for replies. I can be slow too. I try not to be of course, but it happens. There's improvement there, but he still looks very tooned. Its... not something that will bleed out easily, and it's not something I can easily explain to you. Can you make your next try off a photograph? If you do, I'll have something to compare with. I mean, I look at your picture- don't get me wrong, it's very well done, btu the eyes are still too big- mostly cause the nose is too long. The ear is too large too. His mouth is also very animated looking. He needs a top lip. These are all things that are easier to compare rather than explain. Don't panic though. I still don't get realistic art perfect. The best I can do is an impression, and I think that's what you should go for.

When you draw, compare two object together and their relationship to one another. For example, where the mouth sits in comparison to the nose, the eyes to the ears. The nose to the face... there's too much to take in if you look at it as a whole all at once. Tacking the face as simplified shapes. turn eyes into elipses, irises into circles, noses into triangles etc...

I have a few pointers on drawing from photos:- Click the image for the link to the tut.





It's a tutorial I did based on this picture. I stopped after teh second cause I had no feed back on the tutorial. Just the art. I figured noone cared so stopped

I wish I could do a red line or something, but without a photo, the original person can look like anything.

It wish you luck! :D Pick something nice and clean to see :)

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I have to admit, i was being 'alittle' sloppy :s heh heh; thanks for the help over the past year(s)-has it been a year?- im really glad that you think i've improved and i proberly wouldn't have done it so fast without your help :D thanks again :)

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It's not problem. It's nice to know early if it's something like the line that's the issue because frankly, having one smoothed, slightly varied line could be the difference between your art going up a notch or not. It honestly makes that much of a difference! I noticed I got alot more feed back on my art when I started inking my linearts with smoother lines. Before that, I was mostly ignored cause I inked like I pencilled.Varying lines also helps too. There's no hard fast rule with it, but generally I've found that the further away something is, or the heavier the shadow it touches, the heavier the line should be. Another school of teaching that I also like using is when the line FEELS heavy, you should give it a heavier line. This can be a little cryptic to explain though.

This is exactly what this thread is for though :) I'm glad I can be helping people out with art. It's very frustrating when I give critique and it's ignored, but I really get a buzz seeing it when people improve cause of it! Congrads you guys! :D

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http://slide-2-the-left.deviantart.com/#/d3jkh40
An attempt at a more realistic style. I took this as part of a 10 minute speed drawing test, and then after check your main flaws. I just think it's a little sketchy to criticize properly, but still want opinions.

http://slide-2-the-left.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d3ld0vk
More serious, except he's leaning to the right... >.<. Oh, and his adams apple is a little large, and his face shape gets REALLY weird at one point. O_o

http://slide-2-the-left.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=0#/d3i0971
This was part of a comic I'm doing...I wanted to get her to turn her head around on her shoulder, but something about the piece really bugs me and I can't pinpoint it. OH AND IGNORE HER BUTT my bro nudged me when I was inking that vital part...so yeah I get that that part sucks ¬¬

And by the way, just looking for a quick constructive crit, so feel free to take them to peices, if you will...and that means anyone can crit this.

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I have a couple. I'm gonna post my best drawings so far. And my most recent to be completed.

I did this one earlier this year:


This one I did a week ago:

I can already point out a few flaws here, like the head is too big and the body too small. But other than that, can you guys give me pointers one what I need to improve on. I'm very good with critiques, I appreciate both negative and positive comments. I've recieved too many positive comments, because I showed them to my friend. I prefer people telling me what I have issues with so I can fix it.

Here's another type of drawing I did, it's a portrait of Hitsugi from Nightmare:



This one is my first action sequence, if you can even honestly call it that. It's one of the few times I drew the full body. I realize a few things look off. This is also my most recent one.

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Um- could I have one picture at a time please? Critiquing one picture takes me an hour usually. It's actually alot of work :<

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Sorry . Here, please critique this one first. :) Take your time there's no rush. :D

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I assume this was the original referance image?



I couldn't find a larger image so I'll do my best with this... I assume it's done in charcoal? Or perhaps it's a bold pencil which is smudged alot?

• Subject of the picture- Now, I'm not sure if this was intentional on your behalf so I'm just pointing this out, but the first thing that hits you when looking at a picture isn't how perfect it is- rather the opposite! The subject is what hits you first. The subject of the picture is usually the brightest, most colourful and clearest object, or atleast the object that's not like the other ones. It's usually bordered with less important information, has good flow lines around it or some nice negative space. The original image worked really nicely with the rule of thirds. The rule of thirds states that if the subject of an image rests on one of the thirds of an image, it is aesthetically pleasing
  
  
  
  See how his right (our left) eye is right smack in the middle of a cross hair of the thirds? That is aesthetics. It's actually a mathematical formula. It's why advertising is so cut throat. It's not something that happens by mistake. Now, since he rests on one third of the page, he also leaves what's called negative space on the right third of the picture. What negative space is, is area with no information that give the eyes boundaries to rest and not have to tak in information. You can use it to redirect the viewer's attention back onto your subject rather than have their eyes wander off the page. When I look at this picture, my eyes are drawn like a magnet to his eyes glancing to the side because it's also very defined in comparison to the rest of the picture, and has a higher contrast. My eye then circles then follows down the scarf and back up again. It keeps circling that bright area over and over again. This works very effectively.
  
  With your version however, you've cropped everything out except his face and neck. I find myself doing the same motion as the other picture, but the path is less obvious to the eye so I have to force myself to keep moving cause I want to stay on the face. Having the medium colour around the head makes it less claustrophobic. The things I remember of your version are also the mass piercings and the signature on his neck. I'm... not sure why you put that in the middle of his neck. I normally sign and stuff in the bottom right so it's not in the way. In the original image they're not as obvious so it works. You may have been trying to promote it more. If so, ignore this. If not, give them soft edges and the eye will pass over them and take it in as part of he picture rather than something important.
  
• Shading. The next thing that I noticed in your picture was that you linearted the picture then shaded it rather than just going straight into shading. If you want a sharp edge on a shaded area like that, it's best to use an eraser to sharpen the edges, or a hard pencil used delicately. The lineart look is not good in realism. The idea in realism is that you have two different kinds of edges- a soft edge and a sharp edge. A soft edge is a curved edge where the shading progressively gets darker. Sharp edges have a hard light, or little to no curve, so there's not progression from grey to black. In the referance, the jaw line has a hardish edge, but the inside of the mouth is soft. The show the soft edge, the two planes almost merge. The depth is shown in HOW you shade the light to dark. With hair, I'd use a long stroke, starting at the scalp, and finishing at the tip. Always shade in the direction of the hair. even if it's black. IF there's no texture, then use tiny circles to make an even texture and blend with a tissue.
  
• The last issue I have is that the proportions around the jaw have been lost. They look like they were there originally, but with how similar that colour is to the neck colour, the shape is lost. At this point, if the photo referance doesn't seperate it enough, make the neck darker than the face cause it gets the light second, and separate the planes by tone. Not hugely, but enough that the chin looks fleshed out rather than merged with the neck.

HE doesn't look an easy person to draw though, so you did well drawing him! I saw alot of drawings of him on DA and frankly, A LOT of people draw him like picasso. You have alot of good form there, and if you fixed the above issues, I'd think this was a very enjoyable picture :) Right now, it has a few cluttered messages, but it's still a good image.

Keep the subject, soft and hard edges, and tone difference thing in mind. If you have the resorces, perhaps try drawing onto coloured card with characoal and pencil and use the card as the medium range colour. The white becomes highlight, and he black is... black. IT's good for forcing you to look at tones critically and seperate them out correctly.



The other thing to keep in mind is negative space works in two ways, One way repells eyes, but you can also use it to see simplified versions of complex shapes.



See how with this image, one version looks like 2 faces, but if you look at the gap in between, it looks like a vase? This method is a good way of seeing a shapes form. See his tattoo in your version is a little misshapen there. if you took the negative of that tattoo, the actual shape the tattoo makes is more apparent.

I hope this all makes sense. Please tell me if it doesn't so I can explain it better :)

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Hey Arkillian. :) I was wondering how I could improve this drawing:

It's my first time using coloured pencils in my art, so I know there's heaps of room for improvement. Could you please give me some help getting the right proportions (i.e the eye) and adding texture to the hair, as well? Thanks in advance. ^_^

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Thanks, this really helps alot. I've never had instruction on how to properly to realism before. Thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to follow it. :)

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Sure thing!

Well, with the eye proportions, there is SO many tutorials on that. May advice is start with a line in the direction they're looking down the face from top to bottom, the a line for the eyes. Once you have those two lines, everything else will look ok. Cedarseed did a good quick fire tutorial on proportions. I don't really want to rewrite a written book D: There's other tutorials out there, but that's one /I have linked.

For hair, there's not huge hard fast rule that works with hair. You have the long lines- perhaps have some hair lifting away from the rest like it was lighter? Teh other thing is giving it highlights. Hair is shinny so give it some highlights, but I've found hair is more interesting when it's not clinical. Perfectly combed hair feels cleaner, but to me it looks plain. This isn't the same for everyone cause some peopel like the flatter haired look, but I find bouncier hair makes a character more happier looking. I tend to flatten it if personality demands it. I'm toony in that way I guess XD Like this

As for coloured pencil, the way I have found that works is by placing base tones down- the actual colour of the object, then using hot and cold colours to darken or dull off the base. Eraser to lighten, and colour shift to make it glossier



The above picture is a WIP of a coloured pencil pic. Notice how my light source is blue, so my shadow has a brown hue to it? Yellow light gives off a purple shadow, blue light an orange shadow etc... You have some interesting colour mix effects going on- keep going, but maybe with a light source. That'll give you a direction to go. Use small swirls to fill in flat areas of colour. It doesn't leave as much texture that way :) Hope that helps!

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No problem :) Realistic drawing can be difficult even with a ref. My art is still nothing to what realism artists do it, but I like to think mine leave the impression of the original I mean my most current is this picture of Gin Wigmore, versus the photo I went off. As you see, I have the FEEL of the original, but it's by NO means the same. That's why I don't' like to poke too much at small things. Some get anal about it, but frankly, how close do you want to get? I like to see flaws in art. IT makes it feel real. Keep doing what you do, and it'll get easier :) Those tips should give you a big boost for the next one too :) Good luck!

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If this was directed at me, then I'd rather you did the 2nd one...and like I said, anyone can feel free to crit them! It doesn't have to be you, Arkillian.

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It was directed at Mikemeekinsfan also :) Both of you posted a few images each and I wanted to post a plea for one each before others decided to do the same DX If you don't mind, I have a deadline for my comic on Monday. If I can do this Tuesday, or after I finish my comic then I'd totally be cool giving you an awesome critique and stuff. Others can help out in the mean time if they wish :) This forum was meant for anyone to critique people. I think it became only me though cause people forgot that >.> I just want people to have somewhere they can turn to for help on art, that's all.

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It's totally okay if you have deadlines to meet - I'm in no rush to get my work critted, so it's all good. If other people want criticising i'll step in, to keep this thread flowing. It's not like you want to come back to piles of people wanted their work criticized.

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Thanks, Arkillian! Your critique was really helpful. It looks better already.

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It's not bad, but there is some things I can point out here.

• The shading on your picture parrallels the outline of the image in most places. With shading, if you're not familiar with the true shape of the object you're shading, then it's best to leave it out cause less is more with comic art. Like, the shading on the face looks like a half beard of some sorts. I only know it's not a beard because it's the same over alot of the picture. My thought is that since you have a large pen size (0.3mm pens are large. I use a 0.03 to do shading like that), that you learn how to block shade. This isn't a shade most of the face and hope for best thing, what I mean is shading in the darks, but not the mediums or lighter. For example, this picture has something like I'm talking about, except I have a fine enough pen to feather a little. I wouldn't suggest feathering till you got where you were shading.
  
• Use 3D shapes to construct your person. The human form is very complex, but it can be simplified to shapes that you or I can easily draw, like a cube, a globe, and a cylinder. This will help give you a sense of solidity in your art.
  
• I know it's a pain in the ass, but use reference shots of things you are uncertain of. IT'S NOT CHEATING. It takes a bit of work, but the more you reference, the less you'll need it cause you'll learn how the body works. I recommend this specially for your hands and clothing. I myself are no good at clothing. I reference when I'm uncertain how clothing falls. There's alot of room for error in clothing, but if your folds aren't approx correct it's still noticeable.
  
• Use circular motions with the pencil to cover more surface and leave less streak marks. After that, you can put white on top of it to bind the colours with a technique called 'Burnishing' You need to lay down a thick amount of pencil to do that though.
  
• Try to make your lines one clean line even if you have to thicken the line to hide joins. One long line is nicer to look at than 20 short ones. They can be distracting if there's too many.

I think you're aware of other areas you need to work on. I could give you names of books to look at for them, but I felt this stuff was more important to say. I hope it helps

And no problemo Snowy :) I'm glad I could help ^^

My comic is finished now (obviously since I'm critiquing again) so my nerves can relax again. I ended on a 5amer though- not so cool T.T I can link the comic if people are interested :)

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So i drew another picture! yay, ah hah as if anyone cares ;)

so hes martin from The Hoosiers, may i add im not very good at drawing men :/
erm i'd like a little help on the male structure and shading (OKAY OKAY i know on this pic i didn't do shading in the same direction, so can ignore please ^^;?)
errmm but yeah, just whatever you thinks wrong with it, ALL crit is welcome and noted :) thank you
OH erm yes, also i used this as a referance picturee!
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/283883_169465666457209_100001813309790_400613_8000632_n.jpg sorry its the wrong way round, it was on my ipod
(also if anyone knows what he is playing, then you my friend, will be THE most amazing person ever :))

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Last edited by Golden Luxray on Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okayy, think I got all of that! I haven't had much experience with colouring and shading yet...It's the area i'm not all too confident on, so thanks for the tips on how to colour with pencils. I think the next picture I do, will be using a refrence picture.

It's nice to have such...professional help after such a long time!

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I practised coloured pencil ALOT when I was a kid, and learnt what I've told you, but the above book has more advanced techniques as well as more tips than I've given. The writer sounds pretentious (for good reason- she is actually world known for her coloured pencil art), but her tips are FANTASTIC. You should have artist quality pencils to do them though, not cheaper pencils cause they have different characteristics when laying the pigment down. Not that student pencils are bad- I STRONGLY believe that you should use cheaper pencils till you're sure you like the medium and are familiar with it. That way, you can pick up the expensive stuff and know how to use it. I only recently picked up the pro stuff. As they say- it's the artist that makes the art work. Not their medium. When I changed to the pro stuff, the biggest difference was not my art, but how the medium was placed on the page. IT didn't make my art better. I now know that my art is archivable / lightfast (As in in 50 years time the colour of the pigment wont change/deteriorate), and I can try new techniques I previously couldn't. That's a reassuring thing to know even though I don't sell my original art

Golden Luxray- I assume you want this to be an exact copy of it? It'll be difficult since the original is low res. Is there other pictures of the guy? And I'd be cheating if I said who the guy is since his name is listed on your deviantart submission of him :)

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well kinda a copy? but in my own(ish) style aren't i great at making my mind up?
your sorry about the picture, i just love that thing hes playing eh heh, i kinda wanted to be able to draw it
Ermm well there is other pictures of him, but not in this pose due to it being in a video, he also isn't the most famous of them in the band witch m akes fewer pictures of him, and this is from there first album, they've changed alot scince then :
heres one of them on there first album (hes the one on the left)
http://www.catflapmag.com/interviews/The-Hoosiers/images/MainPic.jpg

And from there new album: (the one on the [edit] RIGHT RIGHT, NOT LEFT RIGHT. :| im amazing when it comes to directions *facepalm* )
http://www.thehoosiers.com/media/article_images/lightbox/594.jpg

He grew hair? somehow? and he doesn't wear hats anymore, well he looks alot different for me ^^;
(erm you don't have to crit that pic, it can be more like describing how to draw men if that easier for you :D)

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Last edited by Golden Luxray on Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh, no. I'll critique it- don't worry abotu that! I just asked cause you've actually changed quite a bit about the picture- the pose is actually different I just wanted to know if you wanted it to be the some pose. Getting an image perfect to this image would be near impossible due to the level of blurryness of the referance!

I can give you a red line critique on Sunday after the convention this weekend- unfortunately I have a visitor coming from Hastings this weekend so it'll need to wait. I can give pointers first though, and redline it later so you can see what I mean by the differences in the pose. (Also, which guy is it? I can help getting his face a similar structure if I know which one it is.

• Firstly, the original is rather dark, but it still has a light source. I'd suggest you make the ordeal of drawing this as easy for yourself as possible by turning this picture into grey scale. I use to do that too all my pictures so there was no doubt where the shadows and highlights were. Colours are CONFUSING cause a blue and a red of the same tint beside eachother can still look a different shade due to the amount of light each colour reflects. Blue reflects alot, and red reflects bugger all (It's why they use red light when processing film- cause it radiates the lowest spectrum of light. Red light is the light for someone that doesn't want to disturb darkvision. Red also photocopies black while the same tint of blue photocopies white.). So yeah- spot your whites and blacks and put them in first. No matter how simplified your style is, large creases still need to exist in clothing, and shadows from a hat etc...
  
• Still on the subject of lighting, artistic licence can give the impression of colour separation by fakeing the difference between blue and red buy shading more or less. Now, his hat and shirt are white, so if you made the progression of base tone to full shadow more obvious, it'd give an impression of a lighter base colour. Starting your shadows off at a medium colour and working to black gives the impression that the base colour is darker. You've given the whole image the same base colour, making his white hat and polo shirt look a similar colour to his skin which it is not. This may or may not be apparent when you translate this to grey scale so I thought I'd bring it up. You want to clearly define that the hat and skirt are a different colour to his skin
  
• Heh- before you beat yourself up over the shading, there's nothing wrong with how you shaded. It doesn't matter which way the shading goes when you do it. What matters is the effect it gives. Now, I'm assuming that since it's not smudged that this is pen, so what I'm going to suggest is that you do something like this. Get a piece of paper and shade a bar of 100% white to 100% black with your pen and fight to get those variations in between. You'll find that making a variation in the gaps between lines makes it lighter, so does thinner lines. Do this a few times with lines, cross hatching, dots, squiggles, any method you can think off to give the impression of tonal change with an ink pen. This sounds boring, but I think you'll notice tonal change better once you've done it, and will be more experimental with your method of tone use. See, right now you're only using lines (I'd use single lines rather than a zigzag if I were you though since it looks nicer. If you want a scribble effect, then more circular scribbles look nicer)
  
• My last think is that his pose isn't the same in both pictures. I know that you were going for your own style, which is cool, but if you want to copy his pose in your style, you need to get the flow of his pose the same. I may do an experiment with this. I have a few artist friends who I could get to quickly draw this pose in their style so I can show you what I mean. My friend Lucky does animation styled art, my friendKayla has a Mangaish style. I'll see if they can do one, and I'll show it along side one I've done. You'll see that style doesn't have much to do with the pose at all

I hope that'll help for now anyways :)

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